To dismiss or not to dismiss?

[Evolved Wookie]

(This is my inaugural thread and I wasn't 100% sure where I should post it. If this is not the right place then I thank in advance any mod who might wish to put me right. EW.)


I wouldn't say that this has been bothering me, but I am interested to hear some of your views on it.

I've seen many discussions here abouts regarding the necessary stringency of applied scepticism. Some, when presented with a subject of dubious credibility will insist that all avenues of experimental investigation must be exhausted before a sceptically defensible standpoint can be assumed. Others are happy enough to dismiss ideas based on little more than an extrapolation of their own experience.

I can see the validity of either camp, but I must admit to firmly residing in the second. There are ideas and theories that I will dismiss out of hand because my experience leads me to rate the probability of that thing being true as vanishingly small. I only have one life and I'm not going to waste it chasing every last shadow just to earn my sceptics' merit badge. It goes further than that, though, if I'm honest. It's not something that I am especially proud of, particularly in such august company as I find here, but I frequently dismiss woo subjects for no better reason than that they are simply, to my mind, unutterably ridiculous.

Ghosts, mediums, god (of any flavour) all get filed in my head as 'just silly'. I struggle to provide any more concrete explanation than that. I suspect it comes as an extrapolation of the inevitable process of disillusionment that any child goes through. Many stop when they work out that the Tooth Fairy isn't real, some carry on to realise that witches, ghosts, gods and the like are no different. An empirical extrapolation of reality from the trends set early on means that I can and do classify great swatches of woo as just that – wooly, wishful thinking – without wasting effort on it.

That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy discussing and developing some rather wooly things for stories, or merely for giggles, but I just don't have the brain-patch that lets me take fairy-tales seriously – even for a moment.

It's not even conscious. I can no more give credence to the existence of god than I can to the notion of tartan penguins. Less in fact. At least a tartan penguin is still a material, physical entity, just with a natty colour-scheme.

I sense that I'm beginning to ramble, so I'll draw to a close.

Thoughts?


Hugs,

EW

[Damien Evans]

I think that's a reasonable position to take.

[Evolved Wookie]

Nice to know :)

Now, however, my bed is calling to me. Have a good night all!

[Crowlogic]

To woo or not to woo that is the question. In my youth I was the first one ready to flame any and all arguments that did not fit with my views. There is nothing hotter than the zelots flame raging inside an anti woo crusader. But then a curious thing happend. I chanced onto a little jewel of wisdom that grows ever more true with each trip we circle around the sun. Now because you've taken the time to ponder out loud your dilema I'll share that little jewel with you and who ever else happens onto this thread. "All roads lead nowhere." The road traveled by the most pius and criticle of thought and action leads to exacelty the same nowhere as simpleton buffoon ever willing to invest thought in the slighest of muse without reflection. The only question worth asking of oneself is not whether the road they choose to travel is going to let them down in the end, (it will remember all roads lead nowhere) but whether the person ends up letting themselves down for having chosen it.

[TheSkepticCanuck]

To woo or not to woo that is the question. In my youth I was the first one ready to flame any and all arguments that did not fit with my views. There is nothing hotter than the zelots flame raging inside an anti woo crusader. But then a curious thing happend. I chanced onto a little jewel of wisdom that grows ever more true with each trip we circle around the sun. Now because you've taken the time to ponder out loud your dilema I'll share that little jewel with you and who ever else happens onto this thread. "All roads lead nowhere." The road traveled by the most pius and criticle of thought and action leads to exacelty the same nowhere as simpleton buffoon ever willing to invest thought in the slighest of muse without reflection. The only question worth asking of oneself is not whether the road they choose to travel is going to let them down in the end, (it will remember all roads lead nowhere) but whether the person ends up letting themselves down for having chosen it.

So basically, since all roads lead to the same destination (nowhere, death, whatever), it really is about the journey, so you should make sure the chosen path is the one that is best for you and gives you the most peace and comfort, be that woo or logic and truth. Does that about sum it up? I just want to ensure I understood it correctly. It is getting late here, so I am not completely trusting my interpretational (is that even a word?) skills.

[lionking]

Good first thread, and I tend to adopt your approach to woo.

[The Atheist]

Thoughts?


Hugs,

EW

My thoughts are that you should give up the hugs immediately.

Your position on scepticism seems pretty sensible, however, and you get double points for spelling it with a "c".

:bgrin:

[Crowlogic]

So basically, since all roads lead to the same destination (nowhere, death, whatever), it really is about the journey, so you should make sure the chosen path is the one that is best for you and gives you the most peace and comfort, be that woo or logic and truth. Does that about sum it up? I just want to ensure I understood it correctly. It is getting late here, so I am not completely trusting my interpretational (is that even a word?) skills.

Peace and comfort? Rare commodities whether chasing logic or woo. As far as I can tell the Universe at large isn't interested in how we think. It spits us out into awareness then it sucks us all back into the cosmic question mark. It does this every time and no amount of woo or logic is going to prevent it. So while peace and comfort cannot be assured it is up to the individual to recognize which way is best for their brain to function and how and when it functions best. Anyone who can nail that down about themselves is bound to have as good a ride as they're likely to get. The ride ends the lights go out. The trick, if there is one, is to have ridden the ride on your own terms.

[Jonquill]

If most of the woo claims were true they would be immediately self evident.

If a person could really read minds, talk to the dead, see illness inside people's bodies or whatever they should easily be able to convince anyone of that ability in about 2 minutes.

I think the reason skeptics sort of pretend that the claim could be valid and testable is to avoid being labelled a 'close minded skeptic' that is refusing to see any evidence.

[The Atheist]

I think the reason skeptics sort of pretend that the claim could be valid and testable is to avoid being labelled a 'close minded skeptic' that is refusing to see any evidence.

That's one of the few things which switch on my fist-in-the-face strategy.

Some idiot who denies the entire history and meaning of science calling me closed minded.

[lionking]

My thoughts are that you should give up the hugs immediately.

Your position on scepticism seems pretty sensible, however, and you get double points for spelling it with a "c".

:bgrin:
As a fellow pedant, I have just given up. I did so when the aussie sc(k)eptics started to use the "k" spelling on their website.

[Evolved Wookie]

As a fellow pedant, I have just given up. I did so when the aussie sc(k)eptics started to use the "k" spelling on their website.

Never give up! Stay strong!

And while we're at it, it's spelt 'sulphur'.


:rolleyes:

ETA: A more comprehensive reply will be forthcoming, but not until the coffee has finished filtering and my toes have thawed.

[athon]

Conclusions should always be weighed in relevance to the necessity of the decision it is applied to. For example, if you're out buying a can of spaghetti sauce, and the advertisements say 'the tastiest', should you be sceptical? Sure. But would you waste man hours researching the internet, survey your friends, and spend brain power seriously considering it? Or would you just choose whichever looks the nicest at the time? I'd take my chances.

Change the decision to one that concerns your finances, or your health. Now, the extra thought, research and investigation is a little more critical to the outcome.

For me, fairies, god and unicorns add zero value to my life, and in some ways detract from it. If my life were to depend on whether I believed in fairies or not, or my finances for that matter, I might be grateful for doing some serious reading up on it.

Athon

[Evolved Wookie]

To woo or not to woo that is the question. In my youth I was the first one ready to flame any and all arguments that did not fit with my views. There is nothing hotter than the zelots flame raging inside an anti woo crusader. But then a curious thing happend. I chanced onto a little jewel of wisdom that grows ever more true with each trip we circle around the sun. Now because you've taken the time to ponder out loud your dilema I'll share that little jewel with you and who ever else happens onto this thread. "All roads lead nowhere." The road traveled by the most pius and criticle of thought and action leads to exacelty the same nowhere as simpleton buffoon ever willing to invest thought in the slighest of muse without reflection. The only question worth asking of oneself is not whether the road they choose to travel is going to let them down in the end, (it will remember all roads lead nowhere) but whether the person ends up letting themselves down for having chosen it.


Please excuse me that I don't know you or what general views you hold, so perhaps I have misinterpreted your meaning.

This strikes me as an ultimately fairly isolationist view. To reduce it to a rather simplistic point, you're suggesting (as I believe TheSkepticCanuck agrees) that so long as we can satisfy our own mind and expectations with respect to our behaviour, all is well. This seems like a typically black-and-white philosophical reduction of a situation that is all greys. To my mind this happens quite a lot. It's utterly correct, so long as you are prepared to consider yourself as a totally isolated entity (idealism?).

Anyway, to my mind, I am a part of a society – several in fact, of all different sizes, types, complexities and degrees of abstraction. These societies - tell you what, from now on I will refer to the gestalt 'society' for simplicity's sake – this society is designed to advance the cause of human existence. It's a structure designed to advance the capabilities of individuals to extremes that would be unattainable to isolationist peoples.

For example, I work at a particle accelerator lab. I joined when the project was little more than an empty field and a porta-cabin full of engineers. Within time and budget and after the employment of another 250 people and three years of hard work, we have a working accelerator. Had we all undertaken the same project individually I can guarantee you that we would not now have 300 synchrotron. Sure, a few of us might have rigged up some sort of CRT device and loudly proclaimed it to be an accelerator, but that hardly adds up too the same thing.

Now, perhaps I would have been happier trying to grow a marshmallow tree on top of a mountain, but that wouldn't have been a worthwhile use of my time (and by extrapolation, my life). I feel that I have a responsibility to advance the society that has provided me with all the comforts that I enjoy; I want to be a part of humanities greatest achievement – humanity itself.

It's this sense of responsibility that leads me to a concern about the dismissal of ideas. Am I further advancing the cause of society by exhaustively investigating every fairy, gnome and spook I hear about, or by ignoring such frivolities in favour of spending that same time on activities which absolutely support and refine our society's understanding of the world? Obviously I am of the second opinion.

I can see merit in your statement though. I am in the process of trying to give up the day-job in favour of more artistic pursuits, but even there, what I have said is supported. Making people happy and inspiring them to thought is every bit as valid a way of supporting society as building shiny machines (well, maybe not every bit, but it is valid).

...so I think this has been a very long-form way to disagree with you, but I'm not 100% sure ;)

[Evolved Wookie]

That's one of the few things which switch on my fist-in-the-face strategy.

Some idiot who denies the entire history and meaning of science calling me closed minded.

"Yes we stand on the shoulders of giants. that's the whole point, numb****."

I know precisely what you mean :boggled:

[Soapy Sam]

Filtering the signal from the noise is what life is about.

The older you get, the more you see. The more you see, the better your filters get.

One problem on this forum is the endless recurrence of people who have just discovered a "radical, new notion" which has already been discussed to death many times.

Sometimes such people are true trolls and an airy dismissal of their nonsense is the only humane response- but we must always be aware of the immense Oort Cloud of swithering innocents out on the fringes of the system, people who have read something odd or experienced something (apparently) inexplicable - and who read this site (but may never post) seeking an answer. A robust cry of "Horsefeathers" from a large number of respondents may be all they need, but some will want more.
That's why we can't afford to airily dismiss all woo nonsense on the forum without further argument.

In the real world, there's another argument: I do not believe in ghosts or spirits, but I'm interested in why other people do. To say they are gullible is unsatisfactory. They are often no more gullible in other matters than anyone else. I know a severely sceptical bank manager who believes he has met ghosts for example. I know people who claim to regularly see spirits. These folk are either correct or incorrect. If incorrect, they are either lying consciously or they are misinterpreting subconscious neural activity in a consistent pattern- ie they hallucinate rationally. I am increasingly sure the truth is some variant on the latter possibility- ie to them, the spirits are real; they can be seen and communicated with. The thought that this is ALL happening inside their brain, without their conscious mind being aware of it is, to me, at least as fascinating as any real spirit could be.

[Evolved Wookie]

This site is, of course, dedicated to such things and participation in it is tacit admission of being prepared to engage in such discussions. Also, as you say, the continuing education of lurkers and the undecided is utterly worthwhile.

In fact, I agree with you pretty much entirely, so perhaps I should just shut up :)

[Soapy Sam]

Don't you just hate it when that happens?:D

[Crowlogic]

Please excuse me that I don't know you or what general views you hold, so perhaps I have misinterpreted your meaning.

This strikes me as an ultimately fairly isolationist view. To reduce it to a rather simplistic point, you're suggesting (as I believe TheSkepticCanuck agrees) that so long as we can satisfy our own mind and expectations with respect to our behaviour, all is well. This seems like a typically black-and-white philosophical reduction of a situation that is all greys. To my mind this happens quite a lot. It's utterly correct, so long as you are prepared to consider yourself as a totally isolated entity (idealism?).



...so I think this has been a very long-form way to disagree with you, but I'm not 100% sure ;)

Actually this business of existence in not a gray affair. It is entirely black and white. One either exists or one does not. If there is a proven mindset that perpetuates existence/awareness indefinitely then there is the mindset to latch on to at any and all cost. But to answer your question I no longer have any views but one. Just like you I am a being on my way to my own death. We tease ourselves with the notion of logic, reason and science but in the scheme of things it all amounts to a big fancy parlor trick. This so called "human condition" where we’re lead to believe that we're somehow all in this together is in the ultimate sense a ruse. The ruse gets perpetuated because by maintaining it the overall short term survival factor goes up for everyone. But it does not change ultimate fate at all.

So sure I believe in woo 100% and I believe in science 100% (I've been a scientist myself). But I hang my shingle on neither. I hang my shingle on the romance of thought. I'm sure that as a particle physicist you're aware that the deeper one delves into the nature of existence the more woo like it becomes

[Evolved Wookie]

So sure I believe in woo 100% and I believe in science 100% (I've been a scientist myself). But I hang my shingle on neither. I hang my shingle on the romance of thought. I'm sure that as a particle physicist you're aware that the deeper one delves into the nature of existence the more woo like it becomes

Actually I don't agree. This is one of those apologist views that gets trotted out time and again, but it seems to me to ignore a fundamental truth; that good science is always good science, irrespective of how counter-intuitive it might seem.

Even the most esoteric seeming end of physics can be traced back (should you have time and inclination) via a procession of logical and supported deductions back to the most fundamental and basic of realities; fire is hot, things fall to the ground, poke it and it goes ping, that sort of thing. Sure, there are intuitive leaps made from time to time, but they are made in a highly educated state and are subsequently inspected, deconstructed and validated. 'Current scientific theory' (assuming for the moment that that is, in any way, a valid phrase) is the consensus of thousands of superb scientists all over the globe independently verifying that reality really does conform to those theories. If wave particle duality is a valid model then it's a valid model here, in Paraguay, on the moon, on a Sunday or a Tuesday, irrespective of the position of the moon relative to Pluto or whether or not a non-believer is somewhere nearby transmitting 'negative energy' in to the world.

With woo, though, you're lucky to get the two woos next to each other to agree on anything.

[The Atheist]

The older you get, the more you see. The more you see, the better your filters get.

Yet, for some people, the older they get, the worse the filters work, or work in reverse.

[Beerina]

If 39,748 times, theories of ghosts have not panned out, and another one pops up, it's reasonable to assume it won't, either.

If any turn out to be true, someone besides credophiles and those who sell books DVDs to them will notice, and sooner rather than later.

[tsig]

Don't you just hate it when that happens?:D

Yep hundreds of my best replies have been made by others. All of my great insights were written down by others before I was born. I once invented a perpetual motion machine(if you ignore frictional losses) and so it goes.

[fls]

If any turn out to be true, someone besides credophiles and those who sell books DVDs to them will notice, and sooner rather than later.

I second this. Ignore it until people with the wherewithall to know better take notice (I'm sure you'd do the same for them :)).

Linda

[Evolved Wookie]

Yep hundreds of my best replies have been made by others. All of my great insights were written down by others before I was born. I once invented a perpetual motion machine(if you ignore frictional losses) and so it goes.

I hate this! I invented the RFID key fob about a fortnight before Mercedez first advertised theirs. Damned psychic inventors leeching off our brilliance!

I second this. Ignore it until people with the wherewithall to know better take notice (I'm sure you'd do the same for them :)).

Linda

This is very much my philosophy and I count myself lucky to have found this forum which, I am certain, represents one of the most experienced and learned collection of rational minds I have ever had the pleasure to encounter.