Paul McKenna - Richard bandler

[waterwater]

Have you seen he series I can change your life.

Doesn’t this prove hypnosis and nlp works.

He seemed to help or cure everyone.

Do you think Paul McKenna is just in this for the money?

What do you think of his new seminar change your life in 3 days is it worth going.


also do you think richard bandler is a scam artist, derren brown is unsure

[Darat]

What do you think?

[waterwater]

i think paul mckenna and richard bandler and are for real and the things they do are amazing, they know they are good so why not make money is well.

[Uncayimmy]

Doesn’t this prove hypnosis and nlp works.

No. Where are the peer-reviewed, double/triple blind studies?

Do you think Paul McKenna is just in this for the money?

Yes. That's why they skipped the proper medical studies.

What do you think of his new seminar change your life in 3 days is it worth going.
No.

also do you think richard bandler is a scam artist, derren brown is unsure
Yes. Medical science has established methods for testing and verifying the efficacy of treatments. He skipped those and is now selling an untested and unverified treatment. If this were a pill, he'd be in jail.

[Confuseling]

Put it this way. If Paul Mckenna could do the things he says he can do, he could have an infinite supply of money through manipulating gamblers. So he doesn't need to sell books or conferences.

If, conversely, he wanted to do good with his abilities, he would either be the number one spy in the entire world, fighting for freedom and justice and stuff, or he'd subject his talent to controlled scientific scrutiny, that others might understand and emulate and the world be bettered.

Conclusion: He's a charming, popular, con-artist.

[waterwater]

well how did paul mckenna do what he did in thouse programs.
how much money does he want to make has he not made enough.

wht about about famous people that use paul mckenna do they know.

also he cured Ellen degeneres of smoking how did he do that?

also paul mckenna i can make you thin what about people that tired it and it works

[Confuseling]

You will always find people that any method 'works' for - but, oddly enough, that doesn't mean the method worked.

An example. Pray to any given God that your 'flu will go away, and for a certain number of cases, it will. This may well lead people to believe that God is real, but unfortunately, it works just as well for any convincing religion.

If Paul McKenna has capabilities above and beyond normal smoking cessation hypnotherapy - which does work for some people - he has no reason whatsoever to not subject his method to scientific analysis. He'd potentially save millions, become a world-wide hero rather than a parlour trickster, and be able to buy an island and retire.

Always ask yourself these questions when someone makes extraordinary claims. Ok, so you reckon you've invented a magic device that makes cars go faster. What's the first thing you do? Find an engineer, I reckon. Or take it to a testing lab, or a car company. You don't wander around selling books claiming you can do it, making up transparent and perpetual excuses as to why you haven't tested it.

ETA: And in answer to the original question - how did he do the things in those programmes?: It's TV. It's full of lies. How do you hear the spaceships fly past in Star Wars when there's no air in space? We'll never know.

[waterwater]

You will always find people that any method 'works' for - but, oddly enough, that doesn't mean the method worked.

An example. Pray to any given God that your 'flu will go away, and for a certain number of cases, it will. This may well lead people to believe that God is real, but unfortunately, it works just as well for any convincing religion.

If Paul McKenna has capabilities above and beyond normal smoking cessation hypnotherapy - which does work for some people - he has no reason whatsoever to not subject his method to scientific analysis. He'd potentially save millions, become a world-wide hero rather than a parlour trickster, and be able to buy an island and retire.

Always ask yourself these questions when someone makes extraordinary claims. Ok, so you reckon you've invented a magic device that makes cars go faster. What's the first thing you do? Find an engineer, I reckon. Or take it to a testing lab, or a car company. You don't wander around selling books claiming you can do it, making up transparent and perpetual excuses as to why you haven't tested it.

ETA: And in answer to the original question - how did he do the things in those programmes?: It's TV. It's full of lies. How do you hear the spaceships fly past in Star Wars when there's no air in space? We'll never know.

so if he thought it wuld not work for ellen he would have not helped her.
how did he know it worked for her.

[Confuseling]

How many celebrities has he attempted to help? If I ask five hundred people to roll a die, then always guess it's a six, then edit out the ones where I get it wrong, it'll look pretty impressive, huh? How many are going along with him because they're friends, or being paid? Without knowing these things, it's impossible to trust any claim he makes. He knows this perfectly well. He could remove all this doubt, by setting up a controlled experiment, with independent scientists observing the method, results, and ensuring control for extraneous factors - by setting up blind groups, as far as is possible.

The fact that he doesn't do these things, but instead relies on celebrity 'testimony', speaks volumes.

For every person you point to that said "Paul McKenna works!", I can point you to a person who said "Scientology works!", "Voodoo works!", even "Breatharianism works!" So do we believe them all, or do we test it?

[waterwater]

yeah but he can help anyone im sure if i was famous and he help didnt work i would tell people

[Confuseling]

Ok, so why not line up fifty famous people who are trusted - hopefully (though probably over-optimistically), some of them famed debunkers, rationalists and scientists, then do the same, and release the raw footage? It isn't a scientific experiment, but it'd be a heck of a lot more convincing.

Every time I've seen him do something to a celebrity, it's been a single celebrity, and highly edited footage. Proves absolutely nothing.

You are welcome to believe in Paul McKenna. Knock yourself out. Same goes for fairies, pixies, and time-traveling Mossad agents - it honestly makes no odds to me.

But you cannot seriously contend that the television programmes are convincing. The fact is, the default position is to assume it's an elaborate ruse, because there have been millions of examples in this field of elaborate ruses, and absolutely NONE of convincing, well tested evidence. The onus is on HIM to set up the conditions such that all doubt is removed. It would not be difficult. He refuses to do so. Why do you think that is?

[fagin]

but he can't, and you aren't so your point is moot

[Akhenaten]

well how did paul mckenna do what he did in thouse programs.
how much money does he want to make has he not made enough.

wht about about famous people that use paul mckenna do they know.

also he cured Ellen degeneres of smoking how did he do that?

also paul mckenna i can make you thin what about people that tired it and it works


Get this bloke to fix your punctuation and I'll be convinced.

[waterwater]

Confuseling - but i have not seen one person critises him that he has worked with.

scientology, religion, cult leaders etc have all been crtisced by people they have worked with

[Confuseling]

Maybe they signed non-disclosure contracts? Maybe he has used 'magic' tactics (i.e. illusionism) on them, and they are duped themselves?

Point remains: it isn't convincing. It could be made incredibly convincing, incredibly easily, IF he can do what he says he can do. Same with Derren Brown. There is absolutely no sane reason to not subject himself to proper analysis, if the whole thing isn't a lie.

Sorry buddy, but it's just showbiz.

ETA: Put it another way. I don't know what he's claiming he can do, and I can't be bothered to read up on him - I just don't like charlatans.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that he can cure 50% of smokers cheaply and reliably. In the USA alone, the CDC estimate that 440,000 people die of smoking related diseases annually.

Paul McKenna, by refusing to let on his secret, is responsible for 220,000 US deaths a year.

If he's telling the truth, he's a despicable, sociopathic madman.

[waterwater]

heres what some hypnosis and nlp people say about critcism

In six months, she cured 38 phobics. In an average of between two and three sessions per patient.

After those six months, she was called in by the consultant psychiatrist (US, attending), who was reviewing the unit's cases, and asked, "What are you up to?"

I hadda another student, Audrey. She was and is a consultant psychiatrist, now retired. She did her practitioner and her master practioner course with me. She cured quite a few phobias using nlp (while working for the National Health).

One of her most interesting cases, she had a woman patient, had been involved in the Seebruge ferry distaster, had a massive case of PTSD.

Audrey worked with the woman using nlp. Cured.

AND GET THIS: the woman then went home in a much better frame of mind than she had been for months.

Noticing this, her husband - who had been in the same ferry disaster, but who had not sought treatment - because as we all know, men just won't "present", right? - said, "How come you're different?"

And the woman explained to him exactly what the nice lady doctor had had her do - and the husband got fixed as well.

How's that for effectiveness?

Audrey asked me and Willie Monteiro to help her write a paper for the Royal Society. We said don't do it - they will just tear you apart (this was back in the late 80s). You know how much the medical profession hates change.

[Confuseling]

Use quote tags and provide a link to indicate you're citing something.

Point remains: If he can say "Alakazam!" and cure people of PTSD, then by not doing everything in his power to demonstrate his methods to independent scientists, he is indirectly responsible for every single PTSD sufferer's pain.

So, waterwater, you going to go and start a "Paul McKenna, why are you such a total *******?" blog? Or is it that he can't really do it?

[Mashuna]

heres what some hypnosis and nlp people say about critcism

In six months, she cured 38 phobics. In an average of between two and three sessions per patient.

After those six months, she was called in by the consultant psychiatrist (US, attending), who was reviewing the unit's cases, and asked, "What are you up to?"

I hadda another student, Audrey. She was and is a consultant psychiatrist, now retired. She did her practitioner and her master practioner course with me. She cured quite a few phobias using nlp (while working for the National Health).

One of her most interesting cases, she had a woman patient, had been involved in the Seebruge ferry distaster, had a massive case of PTSD.

Audrey worked with the woman using nlp. Cured.

AND GET THIS: the woman then went home in a much better frame of mind than she had been for months.

Noticing this, her husband - who had been in the same ferry disaster, but who had not sought treatment - because as we all know, men just won't "present", right? - said, "How come you're different?"

And the woman explained to him exactly what the nice lady doctor had had her do - and the husband got fixed as well.

How's that for effectiveness?

Audrey asked me and Willie Monteiro to help her write a paper for the Royal Society. We said don't do it - they will just tear you apart (this was back in the late 80s). You know how much the medical profession hates change.

Wow, now you've told me a random story about NLP curing people, and explained that the reason no studies are done is because of a conspiracy amongst medics, I'm entirely convinced.

[waterwater]

Surely the onus to do the research is on the person who wants the research done?

[Confuseling]

Hello? They have! It doesn't work!

He knows this! That's why he isn't testing it! You should know it too! It doesn't take a marketing genius with a fake PhD to work it out!

[Hows the blog coming along? You registered the domain name yet? Obviously you want creative control - but how about www.paul.mckenna.hates.everyone.org?]

[Mashuna]

Surely the onus to do the research is on the person who wants the research done?

Not on the person who claims it works?

[waterwater]

That's like saying if a plumber can unblock your drains and you don't know it, he's responsible for it being blocked. The onus is on the plumber to seek out the poor householder with the blocked drain? Not vice versa?

Bandler and McKenna's services (as well as the multitudes of others) are well advertised and well documented. They even go on TV to let people know and write books. They're easy to find. In fact, you can't go into any of my local bookshops and not be greeted by a life-size cardboard standee of Paul McKenna. So it's not like they're keeping their work hidden and secret.

If someone chooses to not use those services because there are unconvinced people in the world, that's the client's choice. No one is responsible for another person's choices. Now, I take your point that if there was independent verification, more people would choose to use their services. Fair point. I can't disagree. But I don't think Bandler or anyone owes the world anything. And, yes, it would be nice if there were more independent verifications of NLP. But ... Well, read Andy Bradbury's site. He says it all there, really.


confuseling he does not have a fake phd
"In 2006 McKenna successfully sued The Daily Mirror for libel, over claims made by journalist Victor Lewis-Smith that McKenna obtained a "bogus degree" merely for money to deliberately defraud the public (the degree was from LaSalle University (Louisiana)). McKenna won the case and substantial damages. Lewis Smith wrote about this "bogus degree" even though he knew that Paul McKenna had since earned a genuine doctorate"

[Mashuna]

That's like saying if a plumber can unblock your drains and you don't know it, he's responsible for it being blocked. The onus is on the plumber to seek out the poor householder with the blocked drain? Not vice versa?


Ooh, that's a really bad analogy. So no, I'm afraid you're wrong.

[Confuseling]

I have Pixie dust. Pixie dust cures AIDS. I can make a limitless supply of Pixie dust, if I so desire, or indeed teach other people to make it.

I will sell you some Pixie dust, if you want. However, I refuse to allow Pixie dust to be tested under controlled conditions, and won't let on the recipe.

Am I, or am I not, morally culpable for the continuing death of AIDS patients?

[www.paul.mckenna.wants.your.children.to.die.needle ssly.of.lung.cancer.co.uk?]

[bruto]

That's like saying if a plumber can unblock your drains and you don't know it, he's responsible for it being blocked. The onus is on the plumber to seek out the poor householder with the blocked drain? Not vice versa?

Not really. I'd say it's more like a plumber claiming he can unblock your drains for a price without saying how. In that case, one would be entitled to ask the plumber how it's done, and if it's an unconventional method (e.g. he claims to do it telepathically, or by prayer, or using a mystery chemical) asking for verification that it works before paying.

A couple of thoughts on the issue of celebrity endorsements and testimony:

If someone hires an expensive celebrity hypnotist to help stop smoking, that person is highly motivated to stop smoking. Many people find that the investment and commitment are what they need to reinforce their own intention to stop smoking. The content of that investment may not be as important. Some people make a bet to reinforce it, but you can't really say that betting is a treatment for smoking either.

In addition, it's not that uncommon for someone to give up a habit like smoking for a while, and revert. At what point do you say the treatment really worked?

In addition to that, not everyone who has been suckered by an expensive and controversial scam will be willing to admit publicly that has failed. Testimony alone is a poor gauge of success.

With regard to McKenna and the bogus degree charge, it appears that the degree was indeed bogus, but the reason McKenna won his case comes down, essentially, to the fact that he was too stupid or ingorant or both to understand what a proper degree entails. It may have been a victory of sorts, but it was not a vindication of his degree.

[Uncayimmy]

Confuseling - but i have not seen one person critises him that he has worked with.

scientology, religion, cult leaders etc have all been crtisced by people they have worked with

First off, McKenna is not leading a cult or religion, so why make the comparison?

Second, you don't know everyone he has worked with.

Third, he says that his method doesn't always, so what's there to complain about if it fails?

Fourth, his DVDs are pretty cheap, so how ticked off are people going to get if it fails? Obviously nothing else has worked for you up to that point, so what's the harm in losing a few dollars? If he charged $1,000 for his DVDs, I bet you'd hear a lot more complaints.

It goes back to this: Would you trust a pill that was promoted the same way? You know, TV stars claiming it worked, but no scientific studies verifying the claim?

This isn't about McKenna. It's really about what evidence you believe is required before plunking down your money. Anecdotes are not evidence. Testimonials by TV stars are not evidence. That might be fine for buying the Ronco In The Egg Scrambler, but is it good enough for curing medical problems? Not for me.

[waterwater]

his seminers are not cheap

By the same logic, if you are able to pick up litter, then you are indirectly responsible for every single bit of wayward garbage on the planet.

Bandler and McKenna not only demonstrate their methods quite openly, but teach them to thousands of people every year, and these people go on to teach them to others while at the same time using them to help people with ptsd, phobias, and other problems that once crippled them emotionally. And that's just two people. this stuff ain't exactly a secret.

And I don't think scientists choose what to apply for and spend research funds on based on what hypnotists "demonstrate" to them.

[Mashuna]

By the same logic, if you are able to pick up litter, then you are indirectly responsible for every single bit of wayward garbage on the planet.



Perhaps you'd be better off trying a course in logic? You seem to be struggling with it currently.

[Uncayimmy]

his seminers are not cheap

By the same logic, if you are able to pick up litter, then you are indirectly responsible for every single bit of wayward garbage on the planet.

Bandler and McKenna not only demonstrate their methods quite openly, but teach them to thousands of people every year, and these people go on to teach them to others while at the same time using them to help people with ptsd, phobias, and other problems that once crippled them emotionally. And that's just two people. this stuff ain't exactly a secret.

Why is he selling his DVDs if everyone knows it for free?

Why hasn't he published his techniques in a peer reviewed medical journal?

Why would you even attend a seminar if somebody else could teach you?

Why aren't others selling the same stuff?

[Confuseling]

Let's take just the example we started with; smoking cessation and hypnotherapy.

It doesn't really work very well at all, in standard trials (http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=smoking+hypnotherapy&hl=en&lr=&btnG=Search).

Either McKenna is selling something that doesn't seem to work, or the moral responsibility falls to him to prove it does.

Further than that, if he could prove that it did work - which for a man of his means, with a functioning method, would not be difficult, he would become immensely more famous and successful - so he doesn't even have the excuse that he isn't interested in morality, and just wants to make money.

The reason he doesn't test it is because it doesn't work.

[waterwater]

Where and when have McKenna or Bandler refused to allow their methods to be tested?, the "recipe" is widely published and taught.

Paul goes from hypnotist to mass murderer through expert application of junko logic.

The 220,000 smoking related deaths in the US are his fault because he hasn't personally worked with each smoker. Don't mention that all those people chose to smoke in the first place

If there are successful methods for working with phobias out there, but people are put off from trying them because of spoiling persons out to erode their credibility, are they the ones who are in fact responsible for the ongoing suffering of sufferers, Sim?

(Pixie dust doesn't count because it's not a successful method.)

[Confuseling]

You're not understanding this.

EITHER he's selling what is already known about, tested, and proven defficient,

OR he's selling something that does work, in which case he should get it tested.

NLP, in repeated scientific experiments all over the world, hasn't worked. If he's made a breakthrough, he should tell people what it is. NOT keep selling books about a method that A) doesn't work, or B) isn't tested.

Clear?

[waterwater]

If it works for him and for those who take their time to try it out, why bother to have it tested?

I'll have a clue for you. Medical studies, as you suggest, can only be carried out by an M.D. Medical Doctor. Paul Mckenna is a Ph.D, not an M.D. Hence any studies he carries out will never be valid as medical studies.

Since you are so eager to have medical studies conducted on NLP, why don't you find an M.D that is willing to invest the needed time and money into it?

[Confuseling]

You don't need to be a medical doctor to do a controlled trial. Maybe - and understandably - you need to be a medical doctor where you are to get ethics permission to do most medical trials, but what you're failing to get here is that many people have tested NLP already. It's quite easy to test on minor things that wouldn't really require much in the way of ethical scrutiny. It doesn't work. That's why scientists and medical doctors everywhere are failing to leap towards its research and use.

It's just like the Pixie dust. You can say perfectly correctly that Pixie dust doesn't work, and no amount of prattling on about this being New and Different Pixie dust matters. IT'S STILL PIXIE DUST!

I can find a bunch of gullible people who believe it works, so why bother having it tested?

[ETA: and he isn't a PhD - it's fake]

[godless dave]

If it works for him and for those who take their time to try it out, why bother to have it tested?

To show, objectively, that it works.

[JFrankA]

I have to admit, I haven't read the entire thread all the way through, (I'm at work, sorry, I promise I will) but I am compelled to say something here.

I've been studying hypnosis and doing it as a stage show for a number years now. I have also studied NLP. I can tell you that it's nothing more than imagination, desire, belief, concentration and a lot of suggestion. They are very good at giving a person that "OMG! I feel so much better!" feeling but that fades pretty quickly.

Paul was a stage hypnotist before he became a, well, for lack of a better word, "healer". He dubbed himself as the "fastest hypnotist in the world". In fact, what he does is a basic psychological trick to confuse someone enough to let their guard down. Nothing woo, nothing supernatural, etc. Just a simple, basic psychological confusion trick that anyone can do if they practice enough. The effects don't last long, the effect are not life changing and it's nothing more that what "faith healers" do.

Once I read this thread completely, I'll jump into the conversation more, but honestly, as someone who's done this for years, it isn't anything to spend money on to expect to have all your problems suddenly solved.

[Confuseling]

Thanks for the contribution - nice to have a 'whitehat' hypnotist / NLPer post. I think they are very fascinating, and if you recognise them for what they are there's nothing wrong with them whatsoever.

But McKenna and Brown and people really get my goat. Lying to the public is fashionable (I would say and profitable, but that would imply that it ceased being so) again.

[waterwater]

think when Paul McKenna training closed its doors around 50,000 people had gone through them. Not big enough for a scientific trial, but a good size.

"I went through the doors and went back for me. I used the NLP techniques on myself and others and am very happy with the results. I've met really cool people and sum morons too."

"To this day I use techniques and help others with teaching them the techniques, and most important, the attitudes."

"If, as you claim, you haven't trained with Paul or Richard, I would suggest you do, then you can find out for yourself."

"Otherwise you are like a virgin commenting on sex - unqualified."

"You can base your decisions on what other people say about sex, but you won't know"

"At my practitioner course there were numerous Doctors on the course, some had even come all the way to the UK from the states just to spend a week with Paul Mckenna and co. I keep in contact with them still and it is redically improving their practices and success rates with clients."

[Confuseling]

Do you understand the concept of a placebo, or a blind trial?

[Uncayimmy]

If it works for him and for those who take their time to try it out, why bother to have it tested?

Generally speaking I don't trust the people who make the profit to tell me the results of their testing. Is that a bad thing?

I'll have a clue for you. Medical studies, as you suggest, can only be carried out by an M.D. Medical Doctor. Paul Mckenna is a Ph.D, not an M.D. Hence any studies he carries out will never be valid as medical studies.

I don't believe that is correct. Even if it is, finding someone is easy. There are zillions of grants every year.

Since you are so eager to have medical studies conducted on NLP, why don't you find an M.D that is willing to invest the needed time and money into it?

There are plenty of grants available. If you are right, then he only needs to get one M.D. to sign off on the grant application.

[Mashuna]

think when Paul McKenna training closed its doors around 50,000 people had gone through them. Not big enough for a scientific trial, but a good size.


Plenty big enough for a scientific trial, it's just a shame that no such trial was carried out.

[JFrankA]

Thanks for the contribution - nice to have a 'whitehat' hypnotist / NLPer post. I think they are very fascinating, and if you recognise them for what they are there's nothing wrong with them whatsoever.

But McKenna and Brown and people really get my goat. Lying to the public is fashionable (I would say and profitable, but that would imply that it ceased being so) again.

If McKenna is saying that he is performing "cure-all"s through NLP and hypnosis, then McKenna would be getting my goat too.

I disagree with you on Derren though. He never, ever says he has powers, he has come out several times and said that what he does is slight of hand, simple psychological tricks, etc, and is a firm skeptic. He may not come out and say it, but he's a mentalist (and I mean that strictly in the performance-sense).

His books, "Pure Effect", "Tricks of the Mind", etc all read like a magician's handbook. Showing the secrets of how he performs certain tricks. "Tricks of the Mind" is a great book I recommend to anyone starting out in performing magic, mentalism and stage hypnosis. The book is devoid of woo, explains hypnosis and NLP accurately and why it isn't the amazing supernatural thing people try to make it and gives you some background into how he went from being religious to complete athiest.

Not to derail the thread, but there is a big discussion in the magic circles as what is considered "honest" lieing and "dishonest" lieing to audiences. Personally, I put Derren in the "honest" lieing catagory, along with Penn & Teller and the like. As a performer, I feel it's my responsiblity to put myself in that catagory too. :)

[Confuseling]

You may well be right - you're certainly more familiar with him than I am.

It's all about layers of deception, isn't it? A magician, on the surface, performs magic. But Paul Daniels never maintained the pretence that he had special powers, and if you believed he did, to be frank there's no helping you (except perhaps ensuring that you never, ever attempt to cross a road unaccompanied).

Derren Brown is in a kind of limbo category between 'legitimate stage deception' and 'actual deception', from what I've seen of him. He does magic, then 'explains' it through psychobabble. This is fine, as long as you realise it's part of the act. It only annoys me because I hear people say "Derren Brown's amazing! He can look at your eyebrows twitching while you draw a picture, and work out what it is you've drawn!"

Whether that's his fault, or the fault of the education system... subjective.

[JFrankA]

You may well be right - you're certainly more familiar with him than I am.

It's all about layers of deception, isn't it? A magician, on the surface, performs magic. But Paul Daniels never maintained the pretence that he had special powers, and if you believed he did, to be frank there's no helping you (except perhaps ensuring that you never, ever attempt to cross a road unaccompanied).

Derren Brown is in a kind of limbo category between 'legitimate stage deception' and 'actual deception', from what I've seen of him. He does magic, then 'explains' it through psychobabble. This is fine, as long as you realise it's part of the act. It only annoys me because I hear people say "Derren Brown's amazing! He can look at your eyebrows twitching while you draw a picture, and work out what it is you've drawn!"

Whether that's his fault, or the fault of the education system... subjective.

I think in the case of Derren Brown, the fault of believing his psychobabble is the audience's, because I get same thing.

Let me explain. At the beginning of each show I do, I explain to the audience that I have no special powers. I then explain that there is nothing magical about hypnosis. Hypnosis is nothing more than going to the movies. You sit down in a comfortable seat and there's music blaring while you stare at a large screen. You laugh at the funny bits, your heart pounds faster at the chase scene, you cry when something sad happens, you get angry when antagonist does something evil and all this happens without you noticing the guy one row in front of you eating his popcorn loudly.

I tell them that, up front. I give away the secret right in front of them, and not only does the hypnosis still work, but after every show, I still get people asking me to help them lose weight, quit smoking, etc. I've even been asked to get rid of demons or talk to the dead (which neither one is in my show at all). I've even got people angry because I would insist that there is nothing I can do for them and that they have to do it themselves, and they are convinced I'm holding back my "superpower" or "secret" just to make a buck.

It's unfortunate, but I find that people will hear what they want to hear no matter how loudly and accurately you tell the truth. :( I think Derren Brown gets the same rap simply because he gives you the same warning at the beginning of every show. The psychobabble is part of the performance which he completely drops if you read his books.

[Confuseling]

That's very interesting. I'm a meditator (Western Buddhist style) myself, and have always defined that as a kind of 'self-hypnosis'. Does that sound about right to you?

It sounds like you're defining hypnosis and NLP as a kind of willing suspension of disbelief. I am very interested in the research into what they can and can't do - it seems to suffer from the same 'homework' problem that things like cognitive behaviour therapy suffer though - if it doesn't work, then you obviously aren't trying hard enough! You can say the same about mediation though, so that's not really intended as a criticism - more a stab at some of the problems in rigorously investigating a subjective intervention.

I commend you for your honesty with your audience. It must be really frustrating - and not a little undermining of your faith in humanity, having people ask you to cast out demons and such. Do you not think in some sense though, this is partly the fault of Brown et al playing with the ambiguity, and with people's emotions, for profit?

[JFrankA]

That's very interesting. I'm a meditator (Western Buddhist style) myself, and have always defined that as a kind of 'self-hypnosis'. Does that sound about right to you?


Yes, that sounds right to me. I think it's the same "state of mind". You are concentrating so hard, you block out your surroundings. It is like meditating, watching a movie, playing a game, reading a book, etc. Of course, this is my humble opinion... :)


It sounds like you're defining hypnosis and NLP as a kind of willing suspension of disbelief.


That's part of it, but it's not unusual. We tend to do that everyday. Ever watch television? :)


I am very interested in the research into what they can and can't do - it seems to suffer from the same 'homework' problem that things like cognitive behaviour therapy suffer though - if it doesn't work, then you obviously aren't trying hard enough! You can say the same about mediation though, so that's not really intended as a criticism - more a stab at some of the problems in rigorously investigating a subjective intervention.


I've never thought of it like that. To me, as a hypnotist, all I'm doing is helping someone get into a "state of mind" so that they can concentrate on what I suggest to them. If it doesn't work, I wouldn't say they weren't trying hard enough, just that it didn't work this time.


I commend you for your honesty with your audience. It must be really frustrating - and not a little undermining of your faith in humanity, having people ask you to cast out demons and such. Do you not think in some sense though, this is partly the fault of Brown et al playing with the ambiguity, and with people's emotions, for profit?

Thank you.

As I said, I don't think Brown is at any fault here. I mean, I even say up front what it is, etc, and people STILL think I have powers. That's the point. Derren Brown does the same thing. Everything he says while performing is just that - a performance. Once he's off stage, once the lights are off, he has no qualms dropping the performance.

The performers I have problems with are people who continue to say that they do have powers or that they do have "cure-alls" after the lights are off. That, to me, is the test.

I perform mentalism as well. Now with any type of stage magic, a performer lies lies lies lies lies and misdirects to achieve the effects. Derren Brown does it, Penn & Teller do it, Randi does it, Criss Angel does it, every magician on stage has to do it. To me, there's nothing wrong with that. That's because these people pay us to try to amaze them. Lieing and misdirection are a great way to achieve that amazement.

However, the line is drawn when the curtain is down, so to speak. The performers who come out and say "look, I have no powers, all I'm doing is fooling you, enjoy it for what it is" are the ones who are doing their job without explotation. But the ones who keep insisting that they do have powers, or that something supernatural really did happen, etc, etc, are the ones to blame.

Derren Brown has a disclaimer before every show. Read his books, see him in interviews, and he will say outright that he is a bull....ter like the rest of us.

Also, there are people who will hear what they want to hear no matter what you say. There are people out there who you can show a card trick to, then show them the secret, and they will still believe it was something supernatural.

Unfortunately, we live in a society where believing in something supernatural is a commendable thing, no matter how much you scream the truth. :(

[waterwater]

I think derren brown could help people he would just prefer not to enjoy doing tricks more.

Because in trick or treat the time when he made that lady a world class poker player
That man world class at pub quizzes
That other man improves his dating in speed dating.
That girl to be able to play piano really well.

Even if it’s a trick what kind of trick what it be, I want him to help me like he helped these guys none of them are actors.

Also I don’t know if anyone knows this but Richard bandler does a workshop with just 15 people for 3 days costing just over 11000

Paul McKenna and micheal neill do one is well costing just $20000 in the USA.

I would love to go on one of these but can’t afford it, also now am a bit more sceptical on what they can do.
Also if paul mckenna and Richard bandler are as good as they say they are by going to one of their workshops they could make millionaire therefore it would pay itself, I also have heard many people saying I went to a workshop wow im a millionaire or im so confident now.

Im trying to find people who have worked with Paul McKenna or Richard bandler one on one either through this seminars, TV shows or because there friends and struggling to find anyone.

Also anyone who paul mckenna has worked with it always seems to work phobies etc and no there not just cured for few months but for the rest of their lives this cant be trickrey

[waterwater]

I think derren brown could help people he would just prefer not to enjoy doing tricks more.

Because in trick or treat the time when he made that lady a world class poker player
That man world class at pub quizzes
That other man improves his dating in speed dating.
That girl to be able to play piano really well.

Even if it’s a trick what kind of trick what it be, I want him to help me like he helped these guys none of them are actors.

Also I don’t know if anyone knows this but Richard bandler does a workshop with just 15 people for 3 days costing just over 11000

Paul McKenna and micheal neill do one is well costing just $20000 in the USA.

I would love to go on one of these but can’t afford it, also now am a bit more sceptical on what they can do.
Also if paul mckenna and Richard bandler are as good as they say they are by going to one of their workshops they could make millionaire therefore it would pay itself, I also have heard many people saying I went to a workshop wow im a millionaire or im so confident now.

Im trying to find people who have worked with Paul McKenna or Richard bandler one on one either through this seminars, TV shows or because there friends and struggling to find anyone.

Also anyone who paul mckenna has worked with it always seems to work phobies etc and no there not just cured for few months but for the rest of their lives this cant be trickrey

[Akhenaten]

I think derren brown could help people he would just prefer not to enjoy doing tricks more.


Who is preventing him from not enjoying tricks?



Because in trick or treat the time when he made that lady a world class poker player
That man world class at pub quizzes
That other man improves his dating in speed dating.
That girl to be able to play piano really well.


Because one leg's both the same.



Even if it’s a trick what kind of trick what it be, I want him to help me like he helped these guys none of them are actors.


It's the kind of trick that only works on certain people. Otherwise known as a scam and they aren't known to be helpful. Perhaps an education would be more help to you.



Also I don’t know if anyone knows this but Richard bandler does a workshop with just 15 people for 3 days costing just over 11000

Paul McKenna and micheal neill do one is well costing just $20000 in the USA.


Well, there's no denying it, that certainly is a good trick.



I would love to go on one of these but can’t afford it, also now am a bit more sceptical on what they can do.


Excellent. Hopefully your scepticism will rise faster than your bank balance.



Also if paul mckenna and Richard bandler are as good as they say they are by going to one of their workshops they could make millionaire therefore it would pay itself, I also have heard many people saying I went to a workshop wow im a millionaire or im so confident now.


The scepticism didn't last long.



Im trying to find people who have worked with Paul McKenna or Richard bandler one on one either through this seminars, TV shows or because there friends and struggling to find anyone.


Do you seriously think you'll find many here?



Also anyone who paul mckenna has worked with it always seems to work phobies etc and no there not just cured for few months but for the rest of their lives this cant be trickrey


No, its definitely not trickrey. Sounds more like gibberish to me.

[Confuseling]

I feel your pain waterwater - I too want to be transformed into a dashing raconteur by the power of suggestion. But please, honestly, think about it.

Either the entire profession of psychology are engaged in an inexplicable conspiracy to suppress the truth, or this stuff just don't add up. It's a clever way to extort money from vulnerable people.

If you want to feel good about yourself, go and do something worthwhile. If you want something interesting to talk about, read a good book.

And if you want to give away your money without gaining any tangible benefit, give it to charity.

[waterwater]

confuseling- i think working one on one would be amazing changes.

this what
AQA (any question answerd) say "Paul Mckenna and Richard Bandler are neither geniuses or charlatans. They are skilled at what they do, and have a charming media personality."

[Confuseling]

Sorry waterwater, but this conversation isn't going anywhere.

Please attempt to answer the question, or I'm going to duck out.

How do you explain the fact that there is no scientific evidence that methods like NLP and hypnosis bring these amazing results?

[JFrankA]

I think derren brown could help people he would just prefer not to enjoy doing tricks more.

Because in trick or treat the time when he made that lady a world class poker player
That man world class at pub quizzes
That other man improves his dating in speed dating.
That girl to be able to play piano really well.

Even if it’s a trick what kind of trick what it be, I want him to help me like he helped these guys none of them are actors.


I saw the one about the girl who was able to play the piano well. If I remember the show correctly, Derren stated first that he was going to teach her how to play in a new method then have her do a concert in a week.

Well she did the concert and she was exceptional.

At the end of the show, Derren said that the secret was that she already knew how to play the piano and play it well, it's just that she didn't touch it for a while because (and I'm doing this from memory now) she was bored of it because she was overloaded from it. All he did was re-instill that excitement in her. It was something she could have done at any time by herself. That was the point of the trick. And from what I've read and little I've seen from "Trick or Treat", that's the point of that show.

So if anyone thinks that is something they need a Derren Brown for, they're wrong. Derren really didn't do anything that the piano player couldn't do herself. And that's the point: a lot of these "magic cures" are things a person can do themselves without spending any money. All these "teachers" really do is get someone's enthusiasm up. That's it. It's a flash in the pan feeling that will die out quickly.

If you want help, you have to start with you. There is no magic, no hypnosis, no NLP that will make you do what you want to accomplish. It's your choice. You make the decision.

For example, when I lost weight, I used to say to myself: do I eat this or do keep to the diet so I can lose weight and meet women? I made it a choice for me so I my own decision. My decision. My choice. My power. No hypnosis, no NLP, no god, nobody but me and my own motivation.

Guess what? You have that power too. Save your money. Make your decisions and do what you want to accomplish. Stop thinking that other people can make you succeed. Only you can.

.....sorry for the rant.....

[JFrankA]

Sorry waterwater, but this conversation isn't going anywhere.

Please attempt to answer the question, or I'm going to duck out.

How do you explain the fact that there is no scientific evidence that methods like NLP and hypnosis bring these amazing results?

It's not NLP and hypnosis. Take it from someone who's done hypnosis for over twenty years: it's simply self-confidence and a focus on a goal.

The reason NLP works is because it gives a person a feeling that this is a fool-proof method. Guess what? That gives that person self-confidence. And guess what again? You can get that without NLP.

Hypnosis involves focus. You focus on a goal. Guess what? You can do that without hypnosis. You can focus right now on a goal and don't lose sight of it.

You don't need that stuff. You have a mind. You make the decisions about your own life and goal. You pick a choice and you stick with it and you keep your self-confidence up so that you do stick with it. You are the one who does it. Not Paul, not Derren - YOU!

There. That's the big secret. Take it from someone who's studied hypnosis for over twenty years and knows quite a bit about NLP. Take it from someone who goes on stage and hypnotizes strangers. Take it from someone who's lost 130 pounds by diet, exercise and keeping focused on my goal without using said hypnosis and NLP.

And I gave you that big secret for free.

You're welcome. :)

ETA: I wasn't directing this response directly to you, Confuseling, it was meant generally. Sorry, I didn't want to seem to be attacking... :)

[Confuseling]

Not taken as an attack at all, good sir. A pair of fine posts. :)

Here's hoping waterwater saves his money.

[waterwater]

"(start quote)Do this little exercise. 100 + 10% =?? 110% Right? Congratulations if you got that right. Now .... 110% - 10%=?? (if you said 100% - Wrong!) Answer: 99. Dawgone now where did that '1' go? Hmmm....lemme see....

the point is - a+b can = c. But c - a does not always = b.

Scientific Methodology.
Let me explain how 'science' or the traditional 'scientific' method works....I studied this for years so hope I remember it correctly!!

Here goes:

You see a swan. It is white. You see another swan...it too is white....wow!! ...cool huh?....gets cooler....you see 100, a 1000 swans...hmm...all white.
You go away and you tell all your mates - ALL swans are white. I know...I SAW THEM with my very own eyes.
Problem was. The guys never been to Australia. Pretty much only black swans here.

If the guy had been a scientist he'd have tested the nul hypothesis (yawn*coz thats what 'scientists' do)...they dont actually 'prove' anything. Ever. Nada. NO hypothisis or idea can be 'proved'....only 'dis proved'. Kinda odd right? not really.

Back to our swans. If the guy was a 'scientist' he'd have said...'well..(use a Texan accent here...sounds good!!)...weeielll AHhh Rehkon.... that since AHhhhve seen 1000 whate (white) swanzzz, that i need to 'disprove' the theory that 'ALL swans are white' so, the nul hypothesis would be 'all swans are NOT white'....gotta go to Australia real soon!! and bingo.....nul hypothesis supported. (As a psych grad I've had to do this a zillion times albiet not with swans..!)

Ok to Bandler. You cutely say 'you 'believe' in Bandler'....wots that mean??? you believe...what specifically? that he's alive? that he's a nice guy? that the words he speaks are true??. Stop a sec and clarify what your'e thinking there. As to the 'proving' of Bandlers methodology...wellllll seeee..... sure Bandler could have gone the whole 'boring' academic route to establish his credibilty. But hey!! he's a much smarter guy than many academics I know!!! (dont believe me? try asking him how much he charges an hour and compare with average professors wage)...ok...so...as I was saying....Bander was wayyy smarter and took out an IP over his work. Wow! Radical! Annoyed the hell out of the academic community! Outrage!! How Dare someone claim a commercial interest without going the whole boring route? Ah...well....look at this in a Business context rather than an academic context....in the biz world....if you do something (eg new marketing plan for a client)...it does not work...result? lost money, p**d client and possibly lost client too! ie - No result = Wasted resources (time, money etc). Ho hum...now what? gees welllll (texan accent back)....you Improve your system till it works right??? ...hmm...logical, smart and errr ask any successful Biz man or woman if that aint what they do...
Now...go back to the dusty academic still shuffling papers and waiting for the next govt grant.....compare results.

My Final Point: The scientific methodology has a place and purpose. (interestingly a lot of what is 'established' today - 10 years later someone else reverses it...dont believe me?...check out what happened with autism research).

What Bandler has done is take aspects of psychology and commercialise it and hone it till the methodology 'works'. Hip hip Hoorray!!

Why? Coz he could. Why? Coz it actually works and the final 'why?'.....coz he does not HAVE to prove nothin to nobody!! least of all a bunch of fuddy duddy long winded academics. Please note that I do love all my academic friends...it just the process that is tedious and lets not get into the debate about the merits of the academic system pleeezzz!!!

So: Your original question on content validity. (Great question that could have been phrased a bit differently!).... Bandlers methodology has been 'tested' in the hard and real world of commerical application. Pay money, get 'fixed'. No fix, no money. Simple, honest and a darn good way of 'testing' the efficacy of your system. I think Economics 101 would cover supply and demand basic principles.

As for academic validation. Process is long, tedious and actually errr (and I'm not intentionally exposing any soft underbellies here but...) psychology as a science......and indeed the whole medical profession, is currently still not able to provide ALL The answers to how the human brain functions adequately at the subconscious level. A lot of Bandlers work is to do with the subconscious and the fact that NLP methodology provides manifested results. How specifically that happens would keep the scientists busy for the next millenia trying to figure it out and test /validate it. Hmmmm....I think Bandler figured that time thing out and just went for it. Smart guy. I love his work! And guess what else? Despite my personal support for rigour in the scientific methodology, I can still see the validity in what Bandler does and have no problem whatsoever with his direct market approach. I think the real market is much less forgiving than sheltered academia can be and if it survives there, its good enough for me. Perhaps one day the scientific arena will be able to provide an adequate avenue for fully testing and validating work on the human subconscious. For now, it remains a little bit wanting.(end quote)"

[waterwater]

Or to put it another way:

There is no such thing as "scientific psychology" so demanding that NLP be scientifically validated isn't just silly, it's "my rules for me, and my (different) rules for you".

Here's an example from an NLP critic who was (she's dead now) a clinical psychologist and an adjunct professor at UCLA, Berkely:

"... rational and long-used counseling techniques may not all have been scientifically validated, but for decades they have met the requirements for the standard of practice in the general psychotherapy field."
Crazy Therapies, Singer (the prof.) and Lalich. Jossey-Bass, San Fransisco:1996. p.xvi.

No details are given as to what these "requirements" might be or how they (apparently) remove the need for scientific validation.

[Blackwell]

"(start quote)Do this little exercise. 100 + 10% =?? 110% Right? Congratulations if you got that right. Now .... 110% - 10%=?? (if you said 100% - Wrong!) Answer: 99. Dawgone now where did that '1' go? Hmmm....lemme see....

the point is - a+b can = c. But c - a does not always = b. <snip>

Hey there waterwater,
Your little exercise isn't expressed well; let me see if I can help you. I think what you meant to write is:

100 + 10% (of 100, presumably) = 110
110 - 10% (of 110) = 99

I think most people participating in this thread are well aware that 10% of 110 is 11, and 110-11 certainly is not 100.

And that really doesn't have anything to do with your a+b analogy. Adding and subtracting percentages of numbers is not the same as adding and subtracting whole numbers. If a + b = c, then c - a is certainly b. (Maybe a more mathematically minded poster could convey this more clearly than I have, or correct me if I'm wrong.)

There is no such thing as "scientific psychology" so demanding that NLP be scientifically validated isn't just silly, it's "my rules for me, and my (different) rules for you".
Are you saying that non-scientific disciplines cannot be evaluated scientifically?