How could a feng shui test be devised?

[Sherman Bay]

This came up in a dinner conversation. How could a test be designed for the claims of a feng shui practitioner?

Ideally it would be something along the lines of Emily Rosza's therapeutic touch test, where her entire investment was a piece of cardboard, a coin, a pencil and a tally sheet.

[Timothy]

First, one would have to state, in rigorous and unambiguous terms, the claims a practitioner makes.

This came up in a dinner conversation. How could a test be designed for the claims of a feng shui practitioner?

Ideally it would be something along the lines of Emily Rosza's therapeutic touch test, where her entire investment was a piece of cardboard, a coin, a pencil and a tally sheet.

[Sherman Bay]

OK, so what claims do they make?

[arthwollipot]

Well, for a start they make a claim that there is "energy" or "chi" which can be affected by the placement of furniture.

[plumjam]

OK, so what claims do they make?

Yeah, what position do they take?

[Sherman Bay]

Well, for a start they make a claim that there is "energy" or "chi" which can be affected by the placement of furniture.But how can you test that?

[Timothy]

You tell me. It was your dinner conversation. I haven't the faintest idea ... one of the problems with applying rigor and scientific testing to these nebulous subjects is that it's hard to get the proponents to describe *in detail* what the claims are.

[Sherman Bay]

You tell me. It was your dinner conversation. At dinner, one person said her daughter-in-law had a "degree" in Feng Shui from some institution and wanted to open a business to provide a Feng Shui service, being fully qualified.

Obviously, I said she could make bigger money faster by passing the MDC. But I was at a loss to design a test, so help me out.

I'm aware that Penn & Teller had an episode about it, but I can't find the particular disk for the show, and Netflix isn't any help. Anyone know which one that is?

[Sherman Bay]

Here's a germ of an idea, inspired by this: (http://fengshui.about.com/od/glossaryofterms/g/shachi.htm)Sha Chi, or sharp feng shui energy, can also be created inside the building. For example, when a sharp wall angle, called poison arrow, is pointing at your bed, there is a constant emission of attacking energy directed at your body. In both cases the proximity is important; the further the attacking element is located from you or your house, the lesser its bad feng shui influence. I will have to make an assumption that the "poison arrow" phenomena isn't inhibited by an opaque curtain, a room divider can suffice for the sharp wall angle, and an experienced Feng Shui proponent will be able to tell within a few minutes at most if he/she is being attacked by the arrow energy. And, obviously, the proponent must believe in this statement in the first place.

Then let's line up 10 beds and separate them from another part of the room with an opaque curtain. Randomly selecting a bed number, place a room divider next to one, but hidden from the bed by the curtain, pointed at the bed. Bring in the Feng Shui advocate and ask him/her to tell which bed is affected without peaking around, under or thru the curtain. Repeat test 10 times. If the claim is valid, there should be 10 right answers and no wrong ones. Any other result is a failure, and a 10% correct score would be expected by chance.

Maybe chairs could substitute for beds to make the equipment list cheaper, assuming this doesn't affect the Feng Shui phenom.

[rjh01]

It would be up to the person with the "degree" in Feng Shui to state what difference it can make. I suggest you ask her. Be ready for evasive or vague answers which cannot be tested.

[jimtron]

I don't remember which episode of ************ it was, but as I recall they had several different Feng Shui "experts" go to the same house to rearrange the furniture, and they all did it differently and had different opinions. Maybe the test could be along those lines. But as Timothy pointed out, an unambiguous claim must be made. I remember on another forum discussing Chi energy with a bunch of people who believed in it. But they all had different definitions, which made it hard to discuss, and also to me was further evidence that it's bunk.

[The Man]

Unfortunately, it seems to me that the claims of such things based on eastern mysticism (or any mysticism) are inherently so vague that it is difficult to ascribe any rigor to the testing. In fact the words mystic, mystical and mysticism share the same root origin as mystery. So as long as the precise cause of the results remains essentially a mystery, everything seems to work. Once you really start trying to define or test it, determining causal relationships, then it loses all of its mystical or mysterious powers. The negative flow of chi can (from my limited understanding ) counteract the positive flow, so by just questioning or doubting you set up such a negative chi field (as if one could actually apply vector fields to chi) that the results are inevitably doomed to be negative. The first requirement (as I understand it) is that you must believe in its effectiveness, after that it is all downhill from there. Also, it may not be just limited to you, your furniture or your beliefs (I’m just extrapolating here, you’ll have to ask someone with a degree in chi), your neighbors or neighborhood could be so un-feng shui and full of such doubts that their combined negative chi projects so much that it always cancels out your best efforts to establish a positive chi flow. As a consequence, negative results never mean a lack of applicability, while positive results can only come from the proper and perhaps temporary flow of positive chi. These remarks are just my opinions based on my limited understanding, as I have done no extensive research on the subject.

[jimtron]

Unfortunately, it seems to me that the claims of such things based on eastern mysticism (or any mysticism) are inherently so vague that it is difficult to ascribe any rigor to the testing. In fact the words mystic, mystical and mysticism share the same root origin as mystery. So as long as the precise cause of the results remains essentially a mystery, everything seems to work. Once you really start trying to define or test it, determining causal relationships, then it loses all of its mystical or mysterious powers. The negative flow of chi can (from my limited understanding ) counteract the positive flow, so by just questioning or doubting you set up such a negative chi field (as if one could actually apply vector fields to chi) that the results are inevitably doomed to be negative. The first requirement (as I understand it) is that you must believe in its effectiveness, after that it is all downhill from there. Also, it may not be just limited to you, your furniture or your beliefs (I’m just extrapolating here, you’ll have to ask someone with a degree in chi), your neighbors or neighborhood could be so un-feng shui and full of such doubts that their combined negative chi projects so much that it always cancels out your best efforts to establish a positive chi flow. As a consequence, negative results never mean a lack of applicability, while positive results can only come from the proper and perhaps temporary flow of positive chi. These remarks are just my opinions based on my limited understanding, as I have done no extensive research on the subject.

So how does anyone know feng shui or chi energy exists? If it's so amorphous and hard to study.

[arthwollipot]

There are potential tests of chi, but not in the context of feng shui. I'm trying to come up with some claim that can be tested but I'm not having much luck. Most of the claims about the effectiveness of feng shui say things like "improved health and wellbeing", which is pretty nebulous.

[The Atheist]

So how does anyone know feng shui or chi energy exists?

Because there are thousands of true personal stories about change of luck, new-found love and all kinds of successes once a house has been feng shuied.

Impossible to test for, because true controls are impossible to arrange. Each house has a unique chi.

[jimtron]

Impossible to test for, because true controls are impossible to arrange. Each house has a unique chi. This could be tested--maybe. Have 20 of the leading feng shui experts separately go to the same house and describe/measure/whatever the chi energy there. This reminds me of an argument I heard once that Chinese medicine can't be tested because each person gets an individual prescription of herbs. But you could test this with 100 people going to the same Chinese doctor with the same ailment, and 50 getting the real herbs and 50 getting non-active placebo herbs (which would be dispensed not by the doctor but by an assistant for it to be double blind).

[CFLarsen]

Ask the claimant what it would take for him to be wrong. Design the test from that.

If he says "nothing", then it is pretty clear to all that he is a crook.

[arthwollipot]

I think speculation on this subject is more or less futile until we can get an actual feng shuier to outline precisely what the claim is and how it can be tested.

[The Atheist]

This could be tested--maybe. Have 20 of the leading feng shui experts separately go to the same house and describe/measure/whatever the chi energy there.

Can't happen. The entry of the feng shuist changes the chi by his or her entry. Feng shuists with degrees will know how much their own chi affects the chi if the house, but they can't account for what other people will change when they enter.

As well as that, each feng shuist might use a different mechanism to change the chi. One may have a smiling pig facing the northern apex, while another uses a dish of herbs.

I think speculation on this subject is more or less futile until we can get an actual feng shuier to outline precisely what the claim is and how it can be tested.

I used to bonk a feng shuist, does that count?

The claims are spurious, vague and rather boring, I found. I don't believe any feng shuist will ever give a specific result to be expected as the chi is imemasurable in the first place, so measuring changes to it is somewhat difficult.

[The Man]

So how does anyone know feng shui or chi energy exists? If it's so amorphous and hard to study.

I don’t know that anybody does, but of course if you do not believe then that could be an indication that your positive chi flow is blocked. Myself, I’ve always been a big believer in knowing and not just believing (positive and negative chi not with standing).



I think speculation on this subject is more or less futile until we can get an actual feng shuier to outline precisely what the claim is and how it can be tested.

Agreed.




I used to bonk a feng shuist, does that count?


Did you have to rearrange the furniture beforehand, for maximum flow?


ETA:

If not a test, perhaps we now have the basis for some interesting experimentation?

[leonAzul]

Well, for a start they make a claim that there is "energy" or "chi" which can be affected by the placement of furniture.

Some so-called practitioners make such outrageous claims.

Others understand the metaphoric use of language and the sense that fengshui is no more than the systematic application of common sense, with regards to the use of space.

Granted, it does accommodate superstition, and perhaps for that reason it should be regarded with suspicion, yet it is no more wooish then any other mnemonic device.

As a method, it falsifiably yields some esthetically beautiful spaces.

[Pixel42]

The only way I can think of to test it is to have a feng shui expert recommend the best and worst way the furniture should be set up in say 10 houses, and then set 5 of them up the best way and 5 the worst way. The occupants of the houses (who obviously aren't told which is which) should then keep a diary recording their feelings and every single piece of good or bad luck they have for, say, a year. The feng shui expert should then read the diaries and determine which houses are which. If he's right significantly more often than chance, he's passed the test.

[Sherman Bay]

The only way I can think of to test it is to have a feng shui expert recommend the best and worst way the furniture should be set up in say 10 houses, and then set 5 of them up the best way and 5 the worst way. The occupants of the houses (who obviously aren't told which is which) should then keep a diary recording their feelings and every single piece of good or bad luck they have for, say, a year. The feng shui expert should then read the diaries and determine which houses are which. If he's right significantly more often than chance, he's passed the test.Sounds good on the face of it, but it takes too long, it's too subjective, and the possibility of the subjects finding out which house is which over a year is too great. It needs to be simple and cheap.

[chillzero]

There's also too much wiggle room, for a few reasons.
A person in a 'positive' house who has one problem occur, may then decide that this means they are in a 'negative' house and focus on all the bad things that happen. Or vice versa. Or they could just be naturally optimistic/pessimistic.

The feng shui person may then claim that they got the house type wrong because the negative/positive energy has been created by that person, and nothing to do with the feng shui. Because all these things work together to influence a person's life, dontcha know. ;)

[Cavemonster]

The mechanism (Chi energy etc) is bunk, but it isn't a supernatural claim to say that the arrangement of things in a house strongly can effect quality of life.

Efficiency experts suggest that you keep areas for different activities separate. For some people, trying to do their work while sitting on their bed will mess up both working and sleeping habits. Feng Shui makes similar suggestions about separation.

Sometimes, woo makes accurate prescriptions for the wrong reasons.
See: The Physician and the Priest (http://www.jhuger.com/phandpr)

Would a test of Feng Shui be considered a success if the furniture rearrangement improved quality of life, but not for the reasons the practitioner cited?

Here's a test. Have 20 families fill out a survey on quality of life.
10 of them have their homes rearranged by a Feng Shui practitioner.
10 of them have their homes rearranged by some random dude.
They fill out the survey again, one year later.

If the surveys (multiple choice style) from Feng Shui houses outperform those from the random dude, then there is a real effect (sample size may need tweaking).

This doesn't guarantee that Feng Shui didn't just stumble onto some good psychological, ergonomic and efficiency tricks and wrap them in woo, so it wouldn't qualify for the MDC, but it would clarify whether there is a benefit to hiring a practitioner.

[Sherman Bay]

Cavemonster, that's still too complicated, subjective and prone to discovery or error.

Compare it to a possible test of TT. We could have a bunch of people randomly treated or not treated with TT, then ask them how they feel a year later, and it would have all the drawbacks of the long Feng Shui test.

In contrast, Linda Rosza boiled down the TT-ers claims to a single, simple one: to be able to detect a "human energy field." Sure, they said that the end desire was healthier subjects, but if the basis for their claim to improve health was based on 100% faulty logic, the claim of healing falls thru (or into the placebo realm) without having to test it thru a complicated procedure.

So she devised a test of "human energy field detection," something all participants said they could do 100% of the time, and got an objective, quantifiable result which was nearly identical to chance.

I agree that we need to nail down a testable Feng Shui claim first before we can devise a test, and maybe that's the hardest part.

[leonAzul]

First, one would have to state, in rigorous and unambiguous terms, the claims a practitioner makes.

Who has made a claim, and when, and where?

If a specific claimant does not exist, then why is this being discussed in the MDC forum?

[jimtron]

Who has made a claim, and when, and where?

If a specific claimant does not exist, then why is this being discussed in the MDC forum?

Here's one example (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=Hg7ZUO4zzdUC&dq=feng+shui&printsec=frontcover&source=bll&ots=33LYhkHQ8n&sig=Er9sTTjmcOvZdnPAnvXTbjMFQXE&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=12&ct=result)--"Fens Shui and Money: A Nine Week Program for Creating Wealth." There are many more to be found. People are making claims about FS and charging money for books and services.

eta: check out page xviii at above link for examples of miraculous life changes and cures due to FS.

[arthwollipot]

As a method, it falsifiably yields some esthetically beautiful spaces.Yes. I agree that it is a reliable codified system of aesthetics. Living in an aesthetically pleasing space may have a positive impact on a person's reported quality of life. This is why I think that the protocol as described wouldn't work.

What you'd need to do is have 10 feng shuiers and 10 qualified interior decorators arrange the interiors of the house, so that both are working on a baseline of aesthetic... ness.

[Robert Oz]

Nowhere near good enough for the MDC, but for a bit of fun, how about having a feng shui expert set up a poker table with one of the seats placed somewhere (and facing the direction) that gives financial good fortune (I believe the P&T episode had some of the experts arranging furniture to improve financial luck), then have a group of people play Poker. Have the players change seats every 10 hands. The person in the lucky seat should consistently be winning.

[RemieV]

It depends upon what 'chi' supposedly is, and what it can do. I don't know if the following could count as an actual Challenge test as deciding upon the basis for a protocol is a collaborative project. However, if you're just looking for an idea...

I would suggest decorating three identical rooms. One would be decorated in the most positive way possible according to feng shui, one would be decorated in the most negative way possible. The other would be decorated by someone who didn't know jack about feng shui.

Twenty planted seeds in flower pots would be introduced into each of the three rooms by an individual who is unaware of which rooms are which, and there would be specifics on how much to water the seeds, where to place them, what the temperature of the water should be, what time of day to water the plants, etc. All this should be recorded on video.

After one month, all the plants would be measured. The ones in the positive room should be taller, the ones in the negative room should be dying, and the ones in the nothing-room should match some kind of a baseline, which would have to be created in advance.

The baseline test should involve hundreds of plants in dozens of rooms under all different kinds of conditions, though still subjected to identical care instructions.

With this test, if you developed a baseline that stated the average plant in an average room will grow to be five inches tall in one month, you would be able to tell if the twenty plants in the positive room had grown higher than that average and if the ones in the negative room had suffered, and if the ones in the neutral room hit the baseline.

~Remie

[William Smith]

It has been said before but obviously bears repeating: A test depends entirely upon the claim made.



@RemieV: I like your idea. But I would ask the feng shui expert to decorate all three rooms.
If he could create a "positve" setting, he should easily be able to create a "negative" setting - and of course something "neutral".
This shouldn't even be that hard to test, right?

[Sherman Bay]

@RemieV: I like your idea. But I would ask the feng shui expert to decorate all three rooms.
If he could create a "positve" setting, he should easily be able to create a "negative" setting - and of course something "neutral".
This shouldn't even be that hard to test, right?But it might be hard to keep biases out. What if the person watering the plants knows which room and waters one set better than another?

And the plant idea, while pretty good for a study, doesn't meet the requirements for a challenge (subjectivity, time, etc.)

The poker idea is interesting, but it, too, needs to have defined in advance of what is "consistently winning" and it could be too easily biased by expert poker players consciously or otherwise. There's a certain skill to poker playing (so I've been told).

How about three rooms (positive, neg, neutral), where a coin is tossed in each and a record kept of results during multiple trials? Objective, not subjective! This requires a statement that Feng Shui can affect the outcome of coin flips, but since claims have been made for almost any influence you can think of, coin tosses don't seem much like a stretch.

[quarky]

Well,

When I moved my velvet Elvis next to my velvet doberman, and put the velvet Jesus opposite them, instead of in the same row, I received an unexpected check in the mail.

[Chris H]

I feel that this thread is blocking the positive chi from the north, and should be moved elsewhere...

Chris

[petre]

Every time I try to think of a test, my mind keeps coming up with:

"Repeatedly banging your shins on a misplaced coffee table probably really IS a bit bad for you health."

[William Smith]

But it might be hard to keep biases out. What if the person watering the plants knows which room and waters one set better than another?
...

Remove the persons from the equation. Use blinding or double blinding. Same amounts of nourishment for every plant.

I pretty much assumed the "chi" also affects plants.

If only we had a claim by a feng shuiist...could you ask your friend to join us, Sherman Bay?

[RemieV]

But it might be hard to keep biases out. What if the person watering the plants knows which room and waters one set better than another?

And the plant idea, while pretty good for a study, doesn't meet the requirements for a challenge (subjectivity, time, etc.)

The poker idea is interesting, but it, too, needs to have defined in advance of what is "consistently winning" and it could be too easily biased by expert poker players consciously or otherwise. There's a certain skill to poker playing (so I've been told).

How about three rooms (positive, neg, neutral), where a coin is tossed in each and a record kept of results during multiple trials? Objective, not subjective! This requires a statement that Feng Shui can affect the outcome of coin flips, but since claims have been made for almost any influence you can think of, coin tosses don't seem much like a stretch.



Twenty planted seeds in flower pots would be introduced into each of the three rooms by an individual who is unaware of which rooms are which, and there would be specifics on how much to water the seeds, where to place them, what the temperature of the water should be, what time of day to water the plants, etc. All this should be recorded on video.



Firstly, the issue of whether or not the individual who was watering the plants would know about feng shui or not was specified in the original idea.

Also, getting 'heads' or 'tails' on a coin toss is neither a positive nor a negative event, so I do not see how feng shui would affect it.

The card playing test could test three card poker, which is utter chance.

~Remie

[Leftus]

I'm aware that Penn & Teller had an episode about it, but I can't find the particular disk for the show, and Netflix isn't any help. Anyone know which one that is?

Season 1, episode 7.

[dafydd]

There is only one area of life in which feng shui is effective,birth control.The woman drags the wardrobe in front of the bedroom door so the man can't get in.

[Prometheus]

Some so-called practitioners make such outrageous claims.

Others understand the metaphoric use of language and the sense that fengshui is no more than the systematic application of common sense, with regards to the use of space.

Granted, it does accommodate superstition, and perhaps for that reason it should be regarded with suspicion, yet it is no more wooish then any other mnemonic device.

As a method, it falsifiably yields some esthetically beautiful spaces.

Yes. I agree that it is a reliable codified system of aesthetics. Living in an aesthetically pleasing space may have a positive impact on a person's reported quality of life. This is why I think that the protocol as described wouldn't work.

What you'd need to do is have 10 feng shuiers and 10 qualified interior decorators arrange the interiors of the house, so that both are working on a baseline of aesthetic... ness.

It's not just aesthetics, though. Feng Shui practictioners will also say things like, "arrange workspaces so that you are not working with your back to an entrance." The theory is that it's more difficult to concentrate on what you're doing if worry about the possibility of someone sneaking up on you is lurking in the back of your mind. Nothing to do with chi, but it's at least plausible that the feng shui principle might just be a wooish mental shortcut that points at a real psychological effect.

[ExMinister]

I studied Feng Shui a bit and I can't easily conceive of a way something like this could be tested, though I've given it some thought since I first saw this thread. The practitioners do not claim to be able to sense "chi" the way Rosa's healing touch practitioners did. They claim that by making changes to your house in meaningful ways, you are symbolically correcting bad chi and/or expressing your "intention" to the universe (of course) to help bring about the results you want. Paraphrased from a Feng Shui book I still have, spaces can be divided into 9 areas, called baguas:

Wealth/Fame and reputation/partnership
Family/Health/Children and creativity
Knowledge/Career/Helpful People

So for example, the health area of your house, bed or even desk is right in the center. The health area of your bedroom is right in the center. You can place something symbolic of good health in that area in order to maximize your chances of having good health (for example, a candle).

Here are a few ideas from the book:

A back door in the wealth area of your space leads to money quickly flowing out of your life. If you have a back door here, you can hang a chime either inside or outside the door. The chime helps "your wealth cycle through the universe and come back through the front door." Or you could hang a bell on the door knob, or a bamboo flute. Bamboo flutes are used for protection, in this case to protect your money.

Keep your bed from being right up against the wall to promote the flow of opportunities and the circulation of good fortune.

If the kitchen is the first door you see when you enter the front door of your house, there will be a tendency to develop eating disorders or digestive problems. To fix the problem, you can hang a drape to block it off or you can have something nearby to divert attention from the kitchen such as a fountain or statue.

In order for your life to keep "ticking along" you need all the clocks to work that are displayed in your house.

If your furnace is in the middle of your house, it may be burning up your health. You need to bring some element of water near the furnace to balance it, such as a plant (apparently because it needs to be watered), or you can put a small mirror on the furnace since mirrors represent the water element. The color for water is black, so you could even drape a black cloth on the furnace or duct work for the same effect.

Boarded up or blocked windows can affect your clarity and interfere with your ability to see all sides of an issue.

You can use candles for intention. Around money issues, burn a purple or lavendar candle (you would want to place this in the money area of your house, desk, etc). Pink for relationships. White for creativity. Red to get things moving in your life.

If a bathroom is on the second floor over your front door many opportunties may be "flushed away." You fix this by putting a mirror on the ceiling, or you could put a little mirror on the floor behind the toilet, or hang a chime or bell in the entry way.

And on and on it goes. That is just a tiny fraction of what feng shui practitioners believe.

ETA: It's true that some of it is common sense and harmless. For example, too much clutter is symbolic of disorganization in general. If you're home is full of things that irritate you, you won't be peaceful, etc.

[Sherman Bay]

ExMinister's list shows how hard it is to propose a test, and that's what I was afraid of.

From what I've heard (and from examples like P&T's show), the "principles" in that list are not universal among all Feng Shui-ers. Does a back door let energy out or in?

Thanks to Leftus for the P&T season & show. I'll go and look it up.
Also, getting 'heads' or 'tails' on a coin toss is neither a positive nor a negative event, so I do not see how feng shui would affect it. So what kind of random event could have a positive/negative output?

I only mentioned the heads/tails thing because it's common for Feng Shui-ers to label otherwise neutral things as +/-, yin/yang. I'll bet someone somewhere will say heads is positive, and bingo! we've got something to test.

The whole concept of Feng Shui is that it affects otherwise random events. Does this only work on stuff that cannot be quantified? How convenient.

As far as the plant watering idea, I'm aware that this could be done without human intervention, but any such scheme that takes a long time to complete invites fraud, unconsciously or otherwise. It would be much better if the outcome could be determined in minutes or hours rather than months.

Just brainstorming, but...what if the claim was made that a particular object (statue, say) could bring good luck and another, the opposite. And the claim said that these object's powers are not diminished by being inside a sealed, opaque box. Then a random selection of such objects could be placed in homes and after a time, the home owners polled, "has your luck improved, reduced or stayed the same?" Boxes would have to be checked for tampering, etc.

That's not too good, but a little more quantifiable than other tests.

[Hitch]

A Feng Shui test cannot be devised until a Feng Shui proponent comes forward with an objectively observable, beneficial effect of proper application of Feng Shui principles. Then it's just a matter of excluding outside variables in the test/observation procedure.

But the important thing is there can't be a test without a claim.

[Sherman Bay]

But the important thing is there can't be a test without a claim.Absolutely, so perhaps this thread is in the wrong forum.

For those who requested the "prospective claimant" to come forward, that's probably not going to happen, for all the reasons we've seen ad infinitum in the past.

The only reason I started the thread in this forum is I would like to present my friend with a protocol for a test if such were possible. Otherwise, I will be facing the inevitable "you don't understand", "it's a different paradigm and can't be tested," and "it works, so why test it," and all the other excuses we have seen time & time again. It's hard for me to stand back, watch someone try to start a business such as Feng Shui interior decorating, and not feel like there is copious, but unwitting, fraud involved.

[arthwollipot]

The P&T show is the same one that has the segment on bottled water, which is the funniest part of the whole first series.

[Wowbagger]

Have someone who claims to be a geniune "Feng Shui" master arrange the components of fifty homes.

Also, have someone who does not really claim to be a "Feng Shui" master arrange the components of fifty homes, but will claim to the occupants that he is such a master.

After a month, ask all the occupants if they think there is more positive energy flowing through the home. Even if it is a subjective measure, if all fifty of the "fake shui" homes report the same average level of the "real" Feng Shui homes, then you at least know that being a "master" has nothing to do with it.

[Cavemonster]

Here's a common claim with a fairly objective measurement-


Most Feng Shui practitioners claim to improve the economic health of the household. Many placements draw money in or keep it from flowing down the toilet etc.

You have your statistically relevant number of households, one half decorated by a Feng Shui master, the other half by a random dude. You take down everyone's income, expenditures and savings. A given amount of time passes. You take everyone's financial info again and compare.

Yes, a bit time consuming, but in these economically troubled times, it won't be too hard to find people psyched about a free decorator, and the end result should be fairly clear with a large enough sample.

[arthwollipot]

You have your statistically relevant number of households, one half decorated by a Feng Shui master, the other half by a random dude.No no no! It can't be just some random dude. It has to be an experienced interior decorator - one who does not work by feng shui principles. Since aesthetics plays such a large part in feng shui, the "control" houses must be arranged in an aesthetically similar manner to the feng shui houses. Since our surroundings and our living spaces have such a profound effect on our morale, we must ensure that both the control houses and the feng shui houses are pleasant living spaces.

[CFLarsen]

Feng Shui (I have yet to meet a Western proponent of this superstition who pronounces it correctly) "experts" disagree on the most fundamental thing: The Bagua chart.

Here's a story of my meeting with a Feng Shui expert... (http://skepticreport.com/newage/psychicfairs.htm)

[arthwollipot]

Feng Shui (I have yet to meet a Western proponent of this superstition who pronounces it correctly) "experts" disagree on the most fundamental thing: The Bagua chart.

Here's a story of my meeting with a Feng Shui expert... (http://skepticreport.com/newage/psychicfairs.htm)Nice article, Claus.

[Sherman Bay]

Have someone who claims to be a geniune "Feng Shui" master arrange the components of fifty homes...After a month...Yep, I'm sure that plan would make the cut and Randi would sign off on it. :rolleyes:

Keep It Simple, Sir, S'il Vous Plaît.

[Cuddles]

Since this is a general discussion about how to test feng shui and not related to any challenge application, moved to a more appropriate section.

[Cuddles]

No no no! It can't be just some random dude. It has to be an experienced interior decorator - one who does not work by feng shui principles. Since aesthetics plays such a large part in feng shui, the "control" houses must be arranged in an aesthetically similar manner to the feng shui houses. Since our surroundings and our living spaces have such a profound effect on our morale, we must ensure that both the control houses and the feng shui houses are pleasant living spaces.

I think a big problem with any kind of test like this is the inherent subjectiveness of aesthetics. I don't think I've seen an area designed by an interior designer that I didn't think looked absolutely hideous, and I'm pretty sure they'd think the same about my flat. If we could do a large study then that might not be a problem but if we're only dealing with small numbers of people, any biases or differences in taste could easily give false results, positive or negative.

[Drs_Res]

No no no! It can't be just some random dude. It has to be an experienced interior decorator - one who does not work by feng shui principles. Since aesthetics plays such a large part in feng shui, the "control" houses must be arranged in an aesthetically similar manner to the feng shui houses. Since our surroundings and our living spaces have such a profound effect on our morale, we must ensure that both the control houses and the feng shui houses are pleasant living spaces.

The problem I see with this is that the "master" could always say that the interior designer was using feng shui principals and just doesn't realise it.

I think you would have to have the master claim that the home is not "shuied" (is that a word?) correctly.

[SphereGuy]

I once knew someone who studied feng shui and compared it to Santa Claus. We get presents on Christmas morning and we affectionetly attribute them to Santa Claus out of fun and tradition and we all know there is no such thing. Feng shui experts make a space pleasing, aesthetic, functional, and maybe even less stressful and attribute it to chi, or some energy force knowing full well that's just the myth that underlies their decorating abilities. Yes, some people may believe in Santa with all their hearts and so, I'm sure, it's true with feng shui.

Anyway, that's how it was described to me.

[Hitch]

I’ve been doing some thinking about this and have come up with what might be a workable test of Feng Shui, though whether it would represent anything paranormal or not, I don’t know.

As I understand it, one of the things Feng Shui can do is create a relaxing space. So the test starts with exposing tests subjects to stressful situations or imagery to get their heart rate, breathing, brainwave patterns, etc. above normal. Then put them in a “relaxing” room according to Feng Shui principles to calm them down. Compare the response times to other subjects given a jarring “unrelaxing” room to see if they relax more quickly. I don’t think anyone would see anything paranormal in that test.

So… we have the Feng Shui practitioner create two rooms: one properly relaxing according to Feng Shui principles, and the second that breaks those principles in such a way that the untrained eye would perceive it as looking more relaxing than the “real thing.” If a significant number of observers think the bad room looks more relaxing, but tests show that the properly decorated room works consistently better, I think we’d have a case for there being something to Feng Shui.

But would it prove that there was anything paranormal going on?

[William Smith]

I’ve been doing some thinking about this and have come up with what might be a workable test of Feng Shui, though whether it would represent anything paranormal or not, I don’t know.

As I understand it, one of the things Feng Shui can do is create a relaxing space. So the test starts with exposing tests subjects to stressful situations or imagery to get their heart rate, breathing, brainwave patterns, etc. above normal. Then put them in a “relaxing” room according to Feng Shui principles to calm them down. Compare the response times to other subjects given a jarring “unrelaxing” room to see if they relax more quickly. I don’t think anyone would see anything paranormal in that test.

So… we have the Feng Shui practitioner create two rooms: one properly relaxing according to Feng Shui principles, and the second that breaks those principles in such a way that the untrained eye would perceive it as looking more relaxing than the “real thing.” If a significant number of observers think the bad room looks more relaxing, but tests show that the properly decorated room works consistently better, I think we’d have a case for there being something to Feng Shui.

But would it prove that there was anything paranormal going on?

Doubtful, since the removal from a stress source alone induces a certain amount of relaxation. Also, subjecting humans to stress - how ever mild - violates the MDC rules.

Nah, we will have to wait for one of those experts to make a specific claim.

Experience (e.g. with homeopaths) suggests this likely will not happen because said experts would risk losing credibility among their clients and therefor risk their livelyhood.

[Sherman Bay]

Nah, we will have to wait for one of those experts to make a specific claim.Looks like it. It would be nice if someone like that would come to this thread all volunteer-like. I'll try to get a claim out of my friend, but I want to tread lightly to avoid making her mad, so don't hold your breath.

[Klaymore]

Seems like you'd want to limit your test to one simple, unambiguous result. I.e., instead of "general wellbeing" go for "Make your MANMEAT to grow into a 14-INCH, WRIST THICK MONSER in only 30 DAYZ!!!!!"

Glancing through ExMinister's list though, I don't see anything that quantifiable (yet sadly elusive... sigh...). If, however, there were even one specific claim a FS'ist could present (my hopes are still on MONSTER MANMEAT), a protocol could go something like this:

1) JREF personnel, with Applicant present, go to Randi's house and begin rolling video uninterrupted from time of arrival;
2) Randi's [applicable test subject] is measured;
3) Applicant has [specified time period] to rearrange Randi's abode;
4) After one month, Randi's [applicable test subject] is re-measured.

If it works on Randi, I would happily volunteer my own [applicable test subject] for the secondary trial.

Applicant gets the $1M; Randi and I both get something worth much, much more.

[arthwollipot]

The problem I see with this is that the "master" could always say that the interior designer was using feng shui principals and just doesn't realise it.

I think you would have to have the master claim that the home is not "shuied" (is that a word?) correctly.Yes, but I disagree with the idea of the master arranging both rooms. Have someone else arrange the room, then have the master "read" it and confirm that it's got bad feng shui.

[meg]

According to the feng shuiers that I've read, there is a "money center" of ones home, as well as a "money area" in each room.

Have a feng shuier rearrange 10 homes to attract money, and have an interior decorator rearrange 10 other homes. It would be good if these 10 home were arranged to include what feng shuiers comsider "bad energy", putting something in the wrong corner, for example.

Tell all homeowners that their homes were arrange to attract money.

Or tell them all something else, like their homes were arranged for "romantic happiness"

Then measure their income levels at the end of the time period.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I don't remember which episode of ************ it was, but as I recall they had several different Feng Shui "experts" go to the same house to rearrange the furniture, and they all did it differently and had different opinions. Maybe the test could be along those lines. But as Timothy pointed out, an unambiguous claim must be made. I remember on another forum discussing Chi energy with a bunch of people who believed in it. But they all had different definitions, which made it hard to discuss, and also to me was further evidence that it's bunk.

They had a very good point in doing so- since Feng Shui is claimed to be a science, they reasoned every single expert should return the same "diagnosis", put in the same changes and get the same results. Instead, they all did entirely different things to the house, making the point that it was not a science. An art, maybe.

Here's a idea for a very unreliable test: take two homes with the exact same number of members, in roughly the same location, priced at exactly the same value and with the same income. Make one a control and the other a variable. Apply Feng Shui for a year and then compare earnings and incomes at the end of the fiscal year.

[hipparchia]

A lot of Feng Shui experts offer their service to businesses. I would compare for a year two similar businesses in similar locations. One gets Feng Shui makeover, the other is control.

Or compare the number of common colds for a year in similar households, with or without Feng Shui treatment.

Of course there is always the escape clause- the Feng Shiu changes were the wrong type for the people's Chinese horoscope.

Feng Shui (the less outrageous claims) is one type of woo I have very little against. I often say, this place has good Feng Shui if it's uncluttered and easy to navigate and has that je ne sais quoi that makes me comfortable. Also, I find sitting with my back to the door quite unnerving. So, if someone throws out your velvet Elvis, I don't mind if he claims he did it because of ancient wisdom.

[Sherman Bay]

So, if someone throws out your velvet Elvis, I don't mind if he claims he did it because of ancient wisdom.Hey! Nobody messes with The King!

[leonAzul]

It's not just aesthetics, though

So you say.

Are there any fengshui artists in the house who make such claims?

*crickets*

Much as I enjoy a good debunking, this is fishing in the wrong hole with a straw rod (mixed metaphor well noted).

People pay money for interior design. If it's done according to principle, then so what?

[Uncayimmy]

The only reason I started the thread in this forum is I would like to present my friend with a protocol for a test if such were possible. Otherwise, I will be facing the inevitable "you don't understand", "it's a different paradigm and can't be tested," and "it works, so why test it," and all the other excuses we have seen time & time again. It's hard for me to stand back, watch someone try to start a business such as Feng Shui interior decorating, and not feel like there is copious, but unwitting, fraud involved.

The way I approach people like that is to throw the questions back to them, the most important one being this:

If you can't test it, how do you know it works? How did they come up with this in the first place if they never tested it? What did they actually see happening in the real world that led them to develop a list of the good and bad practices?

I think far too often skeptics back off and start trying to prove someone's theory wrong when at best that's just giving a man a fish instead of teaching him to fish. Every situation is different, but sometimes keeping a person on their heels defending their position can be very effective.

Maybe you should ask this person if you can get in on her business. Tell her you have a line on rabbit's feet, four-leaf clovers and horse shoes, all of which bring good luck. Ask her if you can market this stuff to her customers as part of the feng shui thing she does.

With any luck she'll scoff at your lucky charms (sounds like my wedding night). When she does, explain that they are from a different paradigm and cannot be tested.

[Prometheus]

So you say.

Are there any fengshui artists in the house who make such claims?

*crickets*

Much as I enjoy a good debunking, this is fishing in the wrong hole with a straw rod (mixed metaphor well noted).

People pay money for interior design. If it's done according to principle, then so what?

As far as how many, and perhaps most, Westerners who become interested in Feng Shui are concerned, you're probably correct. They're really just in it for the interior decorating aspect. I don't think this is the case in China though. There, it's represented as, and believed to be, a real method of manipulating invisible energy that is supposed to have real effects.

[William Smith]

...
People pay money for interior design. If it's done according to principle, then so what?

If the service is done under false pretenses - enter "chi" - and one charges money for the service it is fraud.

[arthwollipot]

If the service is done under false pretenses - enter "chi" - and one charges money for the service it is fraud.Good luck getting that charge to stick... :rolleyes:

[The Man]

Good luck getting that charge to stick... :rolleyes:

Indeed, would that not require the very test we are discussing? Then proving damages might be a problem as well, considering a professed lack of malice and a general agreement on the services to be provided.

[Prometheus]

Good luck getting that charge to stick... :rolleyes:

Indeed! Feng Shui has thousands of volumes of pseudo-scholarship devoted to it, and they really don't make any testable claims. Plus there are several recognized "schools" (I think this word can still be considered appropriate here if you think of it in the sense of, "schools of fish") of Feng Shui with very different approaches and principles. Whenever they fail, they'll just come back with, "Oh you must need Black Hat Feng Shui to solve your problems. I'm a master of Compass Point Feng Shui so of course I wasn't able to help you."

[arthwollipot]

Indeed! :D

[leonAzul]

If the service is done under false pretenses - enter "chi" - and one charges money for the service it is fraud.

Which only further demonstrates the ignorance: either "qi" [pinyin] or "ch'i" [Wade-Giles] but never "chi".

;)

[William Smith]

Which only further demonstrates the ignorance: either "qi" [pinyin] or "ch'i" [Wade-Giles] but never "chi".

;)

Ch'i it is. Thanks, leonAzul.

How are they pronounced?

[Sherman Bay]

The way I approach people like that is to throw the questions back to them, the most important one being this:

If you can't test it, how do you know it works? How did they come up with this in the first place if they never tested it? What did they actually see happening in the real world that led them to develop a list of the good and bad practices?

I think far too often skeptics back off and start trying to prove someone's theory wrong when at best that's just giving a man a fish instead of teaching him to fish. Every situation is different, but sometimes keeping a person on their heels defending their position can be very effective.Excellent questions. Hard to believe, but some people exist in a world where some beliefs, while not necessarily adhered to religiously, are not doubted. To hit them with such questions where they have had none before can be pretty shocking. And some people take severe offense to even being asked.

We had a conversation yesterday over her proposed new business. The words Feng Shui were not mentioned; now she is talking about just doing a "staging" operation to make homes attractive, especially for sale. So, for now, I think I'll go with the flow.

Spineless, ain't I?

[Cuddles]

Ch'i it is. Thanks, leonAzul.

How are they pronounced?

"Quantum".

[William Smith]

Excellent questions. Hard to believe, but some people exist in a world where some beliefs, while not necessarily adhered to religiously, are not doubted. To hit them with such questions where they have had none before can be pretty shocking. And some people take severe offense to even being asked.

We had a conversation yesterday over her proposed new business. The words Feng Shui were not mentioned; now she is talking about just doing a "staging" operation to make homes attractive, especially for sale. So, for now, I think I'll go with the flow.

Spineless, ain't I?

Not really. If you can live with the decision you make, then it was probably the most sensible decision to make.

[leonAzul]

"Quantum".

Well said!

That really puts together the lack of understanding about the matter.

And yes, I reflectively react against anything that has "quantum" in its rubric.

Both "quantum" and "qi" have been seriously abused.

[Cavemonster]

And yes, I reflectively react against anything that has "quantum" in its rubric.


I sincerely hope you make exceptions
Cl4VPZ0Xvl4&hl

[Prometheus]

Excellent questions. Hard to believe, but some people exist in a world where some beliefs, while not necessarily adhered to religiously, are not doubted. To hit them with such questions where they have had none before can be pretty shocking. And some people take severe offense to even being asked.

We had a conversation yesterday over her proposed new business. The words Feng Shui were not mentioned; now she is talking about just doing a "staging" operation to make homes attractive, especially for sale. So, for now, I think I'll go with the flow.

Spineless, ain't I?

If she's not actually making a fraudulent claim, then you're not being spineless at all. Feng Shui is perfectly acceptable as an aesthetic methodology. Just as Tai Ch'i is a great form of low-impact exercise, and cold-reading can be genuinely entertaining.

[WillM]

In testing the Poison Arrow corner, there would be a problem. Putting a screen up so the person being tested could not see how the bed is positioned would affect the chi of the room. Just like a extra piece of furniture out of place in any room.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Well, having a great deal of experience with "KI" ( Korean name for Chi) and living/training over there and seeing it first hand- one thing kinda needs to be pointed out.

The "Western" concept "new ager" type FS is radically different ( like matter and anti matter) from what the actual Asian concepts are. What westerners think FS is and what it actually is ( over there) arent compatible.

Some of it has to do with the fact that in many areas, Asians are tight lipped about such things and teach "us" a different version and then you have the standard woo make believe stuff.

[William Smith]

Or this. (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=H3FwERSfiZc)

If you like challenging music, buy any Planet X album.

[leonAzul]

I sincerely hope you make exceptions
Cl4VPZ0Xvl4&hl

Yes, well there's no arguing taste.

:bgrin:

[arthwollipot]

Well, having a great deal of experience with "KI" ( Korean name for Chi) and living/training over there and seeing it first hand- one thing kinda needs to be pointed out.

The "Western" concept "new ager" type FS is radically different ( like matter and anti matter) from what the actual Asian concepts are. What westerners think FS is and what it actually is ( over there) arent compatible.

Some of it has to do with the fact that in many areas, Asians are tight lipped about such things and teach "us" a different version and then you have the standard woo make believe stuff.Well, would you like to educate us about what the differences are?

[LONGTABBER PE]

Well, would you like to educate us about what the differences are?

Sure

In country ( over there) there is no mysticism or other BS attached.

Its ( speaking of FS) no more different than common sense. Its based around astronomy and simply involves setting up your house/farm in accordance with the movements of the sun.

Setting the house up with the "wind" moving air thru, crop exposure and orienting house stuff in a logical manner.

Theres nothing supernatural to it. ( in the countries where it came from)

We would call it a mixture of common sense and maybe "process engineering" but nothing more.

Its important to state that "chi" ( or any variant) has a LITERAL meaning and that 99.9% of westerners who claim knowledge of it dont understand it.

Its purely PHYSICAL and makes sense ( when one removes the woo claims)

I cam give you a thesis on this- what do you need to know?

[leonAzul]

Well, having a great deal of experience with "KI" ( Korean name for Chi) and living/training over there and seeing it first hand- one thing kinda needs to be pointed out.

The "Western" concept "new ager" type FS is radically different ( like matter and anti matter) from what the actual Asian concepts are. What westerners think FS is and what it actually is ( over there) arent compatible.

Some of it has to do with the fact that in many areas, Asians are tight lipped about such things and teach "us" a different version and then you have the standard woo make believe stuff.

Very good point. A great deal gets lost in translation, and one needs to be particularly aware of false cognates when doing the research in this area.

[leonAzul]

Sure

In country ( over there) there is no mysticism or other BS attached.

Its ( speaking of FS) no more different than common sense. Its based around astronomy and simply involves setting up your house/farm in accordance with the movements of the sun.

Setting the house up with the "wind" moving air thru, crop exposure and orienting house stuff in a logical manner.

Theres nothing supernatural to it. ( in the countries where it came from)

We would call it a mixture of common sense and maybe "process engineering" but nothing more.

Its important to state that "chi" ( or any variant) has a LITERAL meaning and that 99.9% of westerners who claim knowledge of it dont understand it.

Its purely PHYSICAL and makes sense ( when one removes the woo claims)

I cam give you a thesis on this- what do you need to know?

And the literal meaning of "qi" is "current" or "flow of energy" as in "amperage".

The woo-woo comes in by confusion with the metaphorical use of the word "qi" to describe a kinesthetic sense that most people feel when they pay attention to their posture. No more, no less. (Note well that I did not say kinesthiology, which is a fetid pile of dingo kidneys!)

[leonAzul]

Well, would you like to educate us about what the differences are?

Oh Oh, what I'd like to know-ow
Is are you kind?

If someone is willing to share, then be grateful.

It's not all about edjumications :bgrin:

[arthwollipot]

Oh Oh, what I'd like to know-ow
Is are you kind?

If someone is willing to share, then be grateful.

It's not all about edjumications :bgrin:Um, what? :confused:

I asked, I got an answer. I'm satisfied.

ETA: Thanks for the reply, LONGTABBER PE. I may have more questions later. :)

[LONGTABBER PE]

And the literal meaning of "qi" is "current" or "flow of energy" as in "amperage".

The woo-woo comes in by confusion with the metaphorical use of the word "qi" to describe a kinesthetic sense that most people feel when they pay attention to their posture. No more, no less. (Note well that I did not say kinesthiology, which is a fetid pile of dingo kidneys!)

Technically, "KI" ( Chi) has no direct translation but in the broadest sense it means "universal energy". It needs to have an adjective in front of it to properly define it. ( such as what kind of "KI")
This is where some of its meaning gets lost- "universal" ( meaning all kinds) has a woo meaning of something "mysterious" or supernatural by the time it gets to us. It doesnt have that meaning on its home 20. ( and never did)

This is part of the problem. You have "human" KI ( yin/yang or uhm yahgn [Korean]) and then "Earth" KI.

They all mean "energy" but not the same energy ( and not how "we" define energy)

I'm not going to get into the argument about "western masters" because in my experience, 99.99% of the people who claim knowledge of KI are wrong or frauds and thus the "disinformation" is greater than the information.

In short ( in Eastern terms) theres nothing "supernatural" about KI anymore than there is sunshine. Westerners made all of that crap up- it doesnt exist over there.

I see it all the time in Yoga, Tai Chi and others who have been fed wrong information.

Ki development is good and healthful. It is also a piece of the holistic pie ( all things making a better body) but theres no "secret" energy, no "life force", no magic and no "cosmic" power attached to it. There never was and never will be.

[Prometheus]

Technically, "KI" ( Chi) has no direct translation but in the broadest sense it means "universal energy". It needs to have an adjective in front of it to properly define it. ( such as what kind of "KI")
This is where some of its meaning gets lost- "universal" ( meaning all kinds) has a woo meaning of something "mysterious" or supernatural by the time it gets to us. It doesnt have that meaning on its home 20. ( and never did)

This is part of the problem. You have "human" KI ( yin/yang or uhm yahgn [Korean]) and then "Earth" KI.

They all mean "energy" but not the same energy ( and not how "we" define energy)

I'm not going to get into the argument about "western masters" because in my experience, 99.99% of the people who claim knowledge of KI are wrong or frauds and thus the "disinformation" is greater than the information.

In short ( in Eastern terms) theres nothing "supernatural" about KI anymore than there is sunshine. Westerners made all of that crap up- it doesnt exist over there.

I see it all the time in Yoga, Tai Chi and others who have been fed wrong information.

Ki development is good and healthful. It is also a piece of the holistic pie ( all things making a better body) but theres no "secret" energy, no "life force", no magic and no "cosmic" power attached to it. There never was and never will be.

So where does one go to learn the right information?

[Uncayimmy]

So where does one go to learn the right information?

"Feng Shui for Dummies" of course!

[leonAzul]

Technically, "KI" ( Chi) has no direct translation.

That much is true.

A better transliteration would be "qi" == "current" IMHO.

[LONGTABBER PE]

So where does one go to learn the right information?

Well, in my case I was fortunate to train directly under Grandmaster Suh ( kuk sool won) who is recognized as one of the worlds leading authorities on KI ( just google his name and ki- theres a ton of stuff out there) and after about 20 years he arranged for some of us to go back to Korea to actually train in the temples with the "soo nym" ( monk masters) ( basically the Korean equalivent to Shao Lin) so I learned it "first hand" from the breathing,meditation, accupuncture and movement methods.

Thats when the realization that what I thought and what actually is are light years apart.

To answer your question as best I can ( which isnt easy because theres no textbook answer), if a person doesnt have a working knowledge of accupuncture points, proper breathing methods,meditation and knowing what those postures mean ( those positions are actually precise as they allow certain pressure points to touch and the motions are precise to open and close points) and can explain how KI comes prenatal to post natal- dont even bother with them.

[Sherman Bay]

Looks like a battle between the "true" prophets and the "false" ones. Which one is which depends on what side you came in on.

[leonAzul]

Well, in my case I was fortunate to train directly under Grandmaster Suh ( kuk sool won)

In my case I was fortunate to study with Park Bok Nam.

Who shared a great deal of wisdom, without being arrogant about it, nor stingy with his sharing.

I have a great deal to learn; there is much that I don't know.

Sosumi!

[LONGTABBER PE]

Looks like a battle between the "true" prophets and the "false" ones. Which one is which depends on what side you came in on.

Theres a large amount of truth to that. Let me share with you from my experience and observations.

Americans have some kind of twisted "Mr Miyagi" syndrome that gives a certain "air of truth" to all things Asian. Then Americans go there and "mimic" what they see. ( reminds me of the Star Trek TOS episode "Squire of Gothos" where Trelane made the food with no taste, fire with no heat etc).

Then they write books and become an "expert".

The ones who actually KNOW it dont peddle it because they understand that its difficult to learn and develop and takes discipline and that theres nothing supernatural or "cosmic' about it so they dont have the "woo factor" to sell. ( gotta have that "oriental mystique".

I know from my own experience that everything I thought i knew regarding the internal arts etc was 100% bogus when i was exposed to the real thing from people who are actually masters.

Its like FS. Theres no "test' for it because what is commonly paraded around as it doesnt exist. Its like the American "fortune cookie" and the American pizza. Its different when you go over there and see what the facts really are.

[LONGTABBER PE]

In my case I was fortunate to study with Park Bok Nam.

Who shared a great deal of wisdom, without being arrogant about it, nor stingy with his sharing.

I have a great deal to learn; there is much that I don't know.

Sosumi!

I'm familiar with him. Then you and i should be pretty much in alignment. The tenets of BaGua are incorporated in KSW. ( Theres a heavy influence of Chinese in Korean martial arts stemming from when Korea was the 3 kingdoms)

Same thing with our masters, once you showed dedication and a willingness to train/learn- they open the doors.

[LONGTABBER PE]

That much is true.

A better transliteration would be "qi" == "current" IMHO.

Yeah, I use electrical terms to describe it as "KI" is energy and now knowing some of your background, we are saying basically the same thing.

To those who arent familiar- try this analogy.

The bodies "KI" center ( directly below the navel) is a battery, meridians are conductors and pressure points are rheostats ( switches)

Breathing develops the energy, PP manipulation and postures allow it to move and meditation directs it.

Its like DC current. you have the + usage of PPs which is the health aspect and the - which is the martial art application ( that hurts and injures)

[Belz...]

Well, for a start they make a claim that there is "energy" or "chi" which can be affected by the placement of furniture.

Worded like that, it sounds almost more stupid than phrenology.

[leonAzul]

Yeah, I use electrical terms to describe it as "KI" is energy and now knowing some of your background, we are saying basically the same thing.

To those who arent familiar- try this analogy.

The bodies "KI" center ( directly below the navel) is a battery, meridians are conductors and pressure points are rheostats ( switches)

Breathing develops the energy, PP manipulation and postures allow it to move and meditation directs it.

Its like DC current. you have the + usage of PPs which is the health aspect and the - which is the martial art application ( that hurts and injures)

Your google-fu is rather impressive.

Your comprehension, not so much.

A more complete understanding of the art would also include the notion of healing.

Because that is what warriors do: they resolve conflict quickly, and not prolong conflict.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Your google-fu is rather impressive.

Your comprehension, not so much.

A more complete understanding of the art would also include the notion of healing.

Because that is what warriors do: they resolve conflict quickly, and not prolong conflict.

Theres nothing google about it, its 30+ years of actually DOING it ( and registered with the WKSW and Korean Ki Do assn.) ( and actually living with the Suh family for times[ 3 of them anyway])

My comprehension ( and actual practice) is just fine.

You are correct about the healing. After 4th degree, much of the training shifts toward a heavy focus on that. ( pressure point accupressure, accupuncture, herbal medicines and such) ( I make my own Jow too)

[Son of Rea]

Sorry, but I gotta call B.S.
I was with you when you started saying KI is real, with no woo involved, then you got wooey with the meridians and pressure point bs.

If KI is real and physical, (like sunlight, as you say) then it should be measurable.

It seems if one could demonstrate how real and measurable it is, then they would qualify for the million.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Sorry, but I gotta call B.S.
I was with you when you started saying KI is real, with no woo involved, then you got wooey with the meridians and pressure point bs.

If KI is real and physical, (like sunlight, as you say) then it should be measurable.

It seems if one could demonstrate how real and measurable it is, then they would qualify for the million.

Thats your right but i can assure you accupuncture and meridians are quite real. The problem is that what they are and do versus what they are "believed to be and do" arent the same by a long shot.

One of the problems faced when trying to explain this is the enormous saturation of false and misleading information thats "presumed' to be the truth but is in fact false. ( due to new age woo, deliberately fraudulent claims and hollywood and such)

I dont see how it would qualify for the MDC as theres nothing "supernatural" about it.

[Prometheus]

Thats your right but i can assure you accupuncture and meridians are quite real. The problem is that what they are and do versus what they are "believed to be and do" arent the same by a long shot.

One of the problems faced when trying to explain this is the enormous saturation of false and misleading information thats "presumed' to be the truth but is in fact false. ( due to new age woo, deliberately fraudulent claims and hollywood and such)

I dont see how it would qualify for the MDC as theres nothing "supernatural" about it.

Okay, but if that's true then you have to be able to describe what it is, and how it can be measured. Everything that's not supernatural can be measured somehow.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Okay, but if that's true then you have to be able to describe what it is, and how it can be measured. Everything that's not supernatural can be measured somehow.

Fair enough but understand I'm an engineer and martial artist- I'm not a medical doctor nor am I a licensed accupuncturist and my personal skill level would be more of an advanced technician level. ( still have a lot to learn myself)

Last time i was on project in China ( 2.5 yrs ago) I got a lot of information from the site doctors ( who were Chinese and we talked martial art a lot)

The Chinese are in fact doing MRI technology and studying that right now ( according to them) but i cant begin to say more or if anyone else is doing it because i dont know.

Its understood over there that the points/meridians are a form of electrochemical energy ( you cant go on the ancient definitions because they didnt understand energy as we do today) so as an engineer, I'll attest that as physical energy there SHOULD be a way to measure it. Whether the correct technology has been applied or has been developed yet- I dont know.

One of the problems is that thru disinformation ( intentional and accidental) that false information is regarded as the "truth" and whats actually "true' sounds false in these subjects.

Depends on what specifically you want to know as to whether I can answer it for you.

[leonAzul]

Thats your right but i can assure you accupuncture and meridians are quite real.

Oh my! (http://homepage.mac.com/bleulyon/snd/ohmy.wav)

As pedagogical means they are useful. As falsifiable science, not so much.

Either you are carnie or rube.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Oh my! (http://homepage.mac.com/bleulyon/snd/ohmy.wav)

As pedagogical means they are useful. As falsifiable science, not so much.

Either you are carnie or rube.

No, neither- I just happen to have experience in the area.

You would be more correct to say that the concepts are not fully studied and understood. The NIH, WHO and AMA acknowledge it but in the same breath say more research is needed. ( and i agree) and the WHO has documented its effectiveness in controlled trials for several ailments.

One of the problems with the testing process is that this is a technique and not a medicine so its like a falsifiable science such as deep tissue massage or other type experiments and like everything else, nothing works every time or the same for each individual.

[William Smith]

...the WHO has documented its effectiveness in controlled trials for several ailments.
...

Evidence please.

[Son of Rea]

An energy source unknown by western medicine? The supposed manipulation of which is considered by believers to be a valid alternative medicine?
I'm pretty sure it would qualify for the MDC.

You claim it is an energy. What does it actually DO that is not subjective?

[LONGTABBER PE]

Evidence please.

Good enough?

http://www.searo.who.int/en/Section1257/Section2181/Section2211/Section2213_11336.htm

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2004/9241546433_report1.pdf

There are plenty more there.

Like i said, you got to remove the hype first. I'm not attempting to defend the disinformation because there is no defense to it.

[LONGTABBER PE]

An energy source unknown by western medicine? The supposed manipulation of which is considered by believers to be a valid alternative medicine?
I'm pretty sure it would qualify for the MDC.

You claim it is an energy. What does it actually DO that is not subjective?

Lets get it straight here. "I" am making no claim- I am simply relating information I was taught. I am neither promoting,selling or defending.

>>believers to be a valid alternative medicine?

Heres an example of what I said earlier. What you posted there is part of that historical disinformation that people believe is correct. Nothing directed at you but that claim ( granted believed and published for decades) is false so theres no defending it.

Acupuncture is not a medicine of any sort. It is not a cure all, end all "miracle" technique. ( if it were, nobody would get sick and die in Asia but they do)

It is not a "stand alone" anything. All it is is stimulating the target organs and allows for a total body health program. ( it would be more correctly described as a health maintenance therapy than a primary treatment) as its used in conjunction with diet,exercise, herbal treatments,medicine and a healthy lifestyle.

>>>What does it actually DO that is not subjective

Thats what I understand is being looked into

[Sherman Bay]

...i can assure you accupuncture and meridians are quite real. So can you suggest a test of one of your beliefs, such as the existance of Qi or meridians? Something simple that could be made into a test for the MDC?

[Son of Rea]

From the first link: "acupuncture, a popular treatment for relieving pain, has been demonstrated both through numerous clinical trials and laboratory experiments."

I can't post links yet, but I cite this article: (tinyurl DOT com SLASH 8plhp8) which shows that "sham" acupuncture relieves pain more effectively than a sugar pill, indicating that the mere methodology of treatment has an effect on perceived benefit.

Your second link merely states that acupuncture was used in the treatment of SARS with no indication on how effective it was.

>>believers to be a valid alternative medicine?

Heres an example of what I said earlier. What you posted there is part of that historical disinformation that people believe is correct. Nothing directed at you but that claim ( granted believed and published for decades) is false so theres no defending it.

You're the one who said it's used for healing. And I quote: You are correct about the healing. After 4th degree, much of the training shifts toward a heavy focus on that. ( pressure point accupressure, accupuncture, herbal medicines and such)

And yet, after 30+ years of DOING it, you can't tell us what it is you're trying to get it to do?

[LONGTABBER PE]

So can you suggest a test of one of your beliefs, such as the existance of Qi or meridians? Something simple that could be made into a test for the MDC?

No, I cannot ( thats the short answer) because that exceeds my knowledge level and from what I do know, theres nothing supernatural about it.

From SoR

>>>which shows that "sham" acupuncture relieves pain more effectively than a sugar pill, indicating that the mere methodology of treatment has an effect on perceived benefit.

agreed but quote the whole thing in proper context. I have had experiences where my own needles have worked and where they have not. As I said before, its just a part of the whole.

>>>Your second link merely states that acupuncture was used in the treatment of SARS with no indication on how effective it was.

cool your jets "sweet cheeks", that post was for a point in the other post and I didnt offer it as "conclusive" anything. It was a question of legitimacy, not one of performance. Even "drugs" and "modern medicine" dont always work either.

>>>You're the one who said it's used for healing. And I quote:

Yes and now put it into proper context to what I was specifically addressing

>>>And yet, after 30+ years of DOING it, you can't tell us what it is you're trying to get it to do?

Thats pretty simple. I'm getting it to do "nothing"- its a tool in the box, nothing more

[Son of Rea]

Tools do something.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Tools do something.

Sure they do- now lets see yours

[Cuddles]

While discussions of qi, or whatever you prefer to call it, may be interesting, they don't have an awful lot to do with how to test feng shui. Perhaps those who wish to discuss the validity of qi, acupuncture and so on could take it to a different thread?

[William Smith]

Good enough?

http://www.searo.who.int/en/Section1257/Section2181/Section2211/Section2213_11336.htm

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2004/9241546433_report1.pdf

There are plenty more there.

Like i said, you got to remove the hype first. I'm not attempting to defend the disinformation because there is no defense to it.

From the first link: "(...)Empirical and scientific evidence exists to support the benefits of acupuncture, manual therapies and several medicinal plants for chronic or mild conditions. For instance, the effectiveness of acupuncture, a popular treatment for relieving pain, has been demonstrated both through numerous clinical trials and laboratory experiments. As a result, 90% of pain clinics in the United Kingdom and 70% in Germany include acupuncture as a form of treatment.(...)"

Another statement, but not evidence. I was thinking more of a documentation of e.g. clinical trials.

From the second link: "(...)Although the researchers tried their best to take measures to perfect the design and to reduce possible bias, the SARS studies were generally initiated urgently under the most severe conditions of the outbreak. A lack of medical resources meant the clinical workload was very heavy. The clinical research on SARS has encountered many difficulties that have not been met before in normal clinical research.(...)"

Ultimately useless, since the study was unable to document a specific efficacy.



I do agree with Cuddles.

[Sherman Bay]

So can you suggest a test of one of your beliefs, such as the existance of Qi or meridians? Something simple that could be made into a test for the MDC?No, I cannot ( thats the short answer) because that exceeds my knowledge level and from what I do know, theres nothing supernatural about it.If there's nothing supernatural or paranormal about it, then there should be a way of testing it, and that's why I started this thread. Let's just talk about that, shall we?

As Cuddles has pointed out, discussion about how it works or even if it works belongs elsewhere. We're just trying to establish that any part of Feng Shui claims can be demonstrated under proper observing conditions.

[Prometheus]

Okay, but then we're back to the fact that we don't actually have a claimant, so all we can do is speculate. From what I've read, even the most specific claims these people ever make don't amount to much more than increasing one's good luck in particular areas of life, so the only test that could ever be done would be statistical analysis with a lot of people/houses, which, as someone pointed out up-thread, would involve prohibitive expense.

As to discussion of qi being a side-track, Jeff Wagg's recent article (http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/391-obamas-qnew-energyq-crisis.html) quotes a Feng Shui person making several claims about 'energy', by which she presumably means the same thing we are talking about with the term 'qi', so questions about what it is, and if it exists should be directly relevant to this discussion.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Okay, but then we're back to the fact that we don't actually have a claimant, so all we can do is speculate. From what I've read, even the most specific claims these people ever make don't amount to much more than increasing one's good luck in particular areas of life, so the only test that could ever be done would be statistical analysis with a lot of people/houses, which, as someone pointed out up-thread, would involve prohibitive expense.

As to discussion of qi being a side-track, Jeff Wagg's recent article (http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/391-obamas-qnew-energyq-crisis.html) quotes a Feng Shui person making several claims about 'energy', by which she presumably means the same thing we are talking about with the term 'qi', so questions about what it is, and if it exists should be directly relevant to this discussion.


I would agree. "KI" is allegedly a critical part of FS and as thus is relevant because if "KI" isnt then FS is done. ( or CHI or Qi or whatever spelling fits)

The only thing I was trying to say was that FS ( in its homeland) had nothing to do with it ( as is currently proclaimed) and then explaining what KI actually was.

The claims about FS being related to KI are bogus- pretty short and simple

[William Smith]

I would agree. "KI" is allegedly a critical part of FS and as thus is relevant because if "KI" isnt then FS is done. ( or CHI or Qi or whatever spelling fits)

The only thing I was trying to say was that FS ( in its homeland) had nothing to do with it ( as is currently proclaimed) and then explaining what KI actually was.

The claims about FS being related to KI are bogus- pretty short and simple

The problem seems that there are many interpretations of what is which and how it should be used - comparable to certain ancient scriptures.

At least FSers do not - yet - kill each other over who has the only true interpretation.

[Sherman Bay]

I would agree. "KI" is allegedly a critical part of FS and as thus is relevant because if "KI" isnt then FS is done. ( or CHI or Qi or whatever spelling fits)Then, while testing FS might be difficult because it covers so much ground and is hard to pin down, how about we design a test for Qi? Just being able to detect it would be a damn good start.

If a good test for Qi could be designed, it would make a prime candidate for a MDC application.

[The Man]

The problem seems that there are many interpretations of what is which and how it should be used - comparable to certain ancient scriptures.

At least FSers do not - yet - kill each other over who has the only true interpretation.


Military feng shui, might be a missed opportunity.

“Allow us to organize your battle plan and logistics operations with the latest applications of feng shui. Do not be caught in a feng shui gap where your opponent has utilized “FS” tactics to gain a strategic advantage. We offer the latest and most extensive “FS” tactical applications available. Our field operatives will get your battle “Qi” flowing at its maximum potential or die trying.”

Ok, maybe an opportunity worth missing.

[tsig]

I would agree. "KI" is allegedly a critical part of FS and as thus is relevant because if "KI" isnt then FS is done. ( or CHI or Qi or whatever spelling fits)

The only thing I was trying to say was that FS ( in its homeland) had nothing to do with it ( as is currently proclaimed) and then explaining what KI actually was.

The claims about FS being related to KI are bogus- pretty short and simple

The claims about FS are bogus- pretty short and simple.

You seem to have some mystical reverence for things exotic and foreign.

BS is BS no matter where the bull came from or how old and revered.

[tsig]

Military feng shui, might be a missed opportunity.

“Allow us to organize your battle plan and logistics operations with the latest applications of feng shui. Do not be caught in a feng shui gap where your opponent has utilized “FS” tactics to gain a strategic advantage. We offer the latest and most extensive “FS” tactical applications available. Our field operatives will get your battle “Qi” flowing at its maximum potential or die trying.”

Ok, maybe an opportunity worth missing.

Napoleon said:
The feng shui is with those that have the bigger battalions.


Or something like that.lol

[rudeboy]

Sure

In country ( over there) there is no mysticism or other BS attached.

Its ( speaking of FS) no more different than common sense. Its based around astronomy and simply involves setting up your house/farm in accordance with the movements of the sun.

Setting the house up with the "wind" moving air thru, crop exposure and orienting house stuff in a logical manner.

Theres nothing supernatural to it. ( in the countries where it came from)

We would call it a mixture of common sense and maybe "process engineering" but nothing more.

Its important to state that "chi" ( or any variant) has a LITERAL meaning and that 99.9% of westerners who claim knowledge of it dont understand it.

Its purely PHYSICAL and makes sense ( when one removes the woo claims)

I cam give you a thesis on this- what do you need to know?
I`ve studied Fshui from masters Cecil Lee and Joseph Yu
astro-fengshui dot com
the flying stars and Ba chai systems. I can`t say they work but i have little costumer experience.
I would like to know what you think of what J. Yu says on his site on his free 101 fshui courses. Looks like rubbish? Can U point to the bull in his articles?
thanks

[rudeboy]

Fair enough but understand I'm an engineer and martial artist- I'm not a medical doctor nor am I a licensed accupuncturist and my personal skill level would be more of an advanced technician level. ( still have a lot to learn myself)

Last time i was on project in China ( 2.5 yrs ago) I got a lot of information from the site doctors ( who were Chinese and we talked martial art a lot)

The Chinese are in fact doing MRI technology and studying that right now ( according to them) but i cant begin to say more or if anyone else is doing it because i dont know.

Its understood over there that the points/meridians are a form of electrochemical energy ( you cant go on the ancient definitions because they didnt understand energy as we do today) so as an engineer, I'll attest that as physical energy there SHOULD be a way to measure it. Whether the correct technology has been applied or has been developed yet- I dont know.

One of the problems is that thru disinformation ( intentional and accidental) that false information is regarded as the "truth" and whats actually "true' sounds false in these subjects.

Depends on what specifically you want to know as to whether I can answer it for you.

I learned about these already in the 1980s and 1990s. Chinese have
shown, using modern technology, the electromagnetic nature of qi and
they continue studies even now.

[tsig]

I learned about these already in the 1980s and 1990s. Chinese have
shown, using modern technology, the electromagnetic nature of qi and
they continue studies even now.

Could you post a link to these studies? Or better yet tell us in your own words what they say and why you think they are important.

If qi is an electromagnetic function will magnets and electric currents do the same thin as qi?

[rudeboy]

Could you post a link to these studies? Or better yet tell us in your own words what they say and why you think they are important.

If qi is an electromagnetic function will magnets and electric currents do the same thin as qi?

I learned about it from books
like Yang Qiyuan: "Chinese Yuanbao Qigong" to mention one, which is
right now on my table. I am sure that it is possible to find more in
the web, if somebody has interest and time to do so.

I also saw on TV a program (German made) a few days ago where this
subject was mentioned so it is not a state secret.

[tsig]

I learned about it from books
like Yang Qiyuan: "Chinese Yuanbao Qigong" to mention one, which is
right now on my table. I am sure that it is possible to find more in
the web, if somebody has interest and time to do so.

I also saw on TV a program (German made) a few days ago where this
subject was mentioned so it is not a state secret.

No words of your own? You seem to have swallowed something without understanding what it is.

[William Smith]

I learned about these already in the 1980s and 1990s. Chinese have
shown, using modern technology, the electromagnetic nature of qi and
they continue studies even now.

Preciesely where have "the Chinese" shown precisely what?

[rudeboy]

Could you post a link to these studies? Or better yet tell us in your own words what they say and why you think they are important.

If qi is an electromagnetic function will magnets and electric currents do the same thin as qi?



Why do you think that even in West magnets and electric current are
used?:-) One of the new applications is to place magnets on
acupoints or to direct electricity to acupuncture needles. The
Chinese have also developed over a few thousand years a way for
people to do this without external tools (qigong etc.) and for a
human to send qi directly to another human. For the Westerners the
best-known method using this practice is Reiki.

[Cavemonster]

Rudeboy-

I'm sorry, this is a skeptics forum. All respectable studies I've seen show that acupuncture doesn't perform any better than plscebo/fake acupuncture. If you want anyone here to take you seriously, you'll have to find an actual published study that backs up your claim.

[rudeboy]

Rudeboy-

I'm sorry, this is a skeptics forum. All respectable studies I've seen show that acupuncture doesn't perform any better than plscebo/fake acupuncture. If you want anyone here to take you seriously, you'll have to find an actual published study that backs up your claim.

i`ll see what i can find

[tsig]

i`ll see what i can find

You would have done better to have done that before you made up your mind and posted here.

Are you a cockroach named Archie?

[tsig]

Why do you think that even in West magnets and electric current are
used?:-) One of the new applications is to place magnets on
acupoints or to direct electricity to acupuncture needles. The
Chinese have also developed over a few thousand years a way for
people to do this without external tools (qigong etc.) and for a
human to send qi directly to another human. For the Westerners the
best-known method using this practice is Reiki.

I can send Qi* directly to another. See I just did.

*I am defining qi as information contained in posts. That's fair since everyone gets to make it up as they go along anyway.

[rudeboy]

Rudeboy-

I'm sorry, this is a skeptics forum. All respectable studies I've seen show that acupuncture doesn't perform any better than plscebo/fake acupuncture. If you want anyone here to take you seriously, you'll have to find an actual published study that backs up your claim.


Gee, majority of sceptics are lazy. If you were seriously interested,
you'd find these on the web because I've seen such information. I
don't have time to cater to you people because I have my own life to
lead and I'd rather spend the time studying facts, not sceptics' superstitions

i cannot post links yet but here is an excert:

What is the evidence?

Available scientific evidence does not support claims that acupuncture is effective as a treatment for cancer, but it appears it may be useful as a complementary method for relieving some symptoms related to cancer and other conditions.

Acupuncture has been the subject of many clinical studies. A recent analysis of 11 studies looked at the effect of acupuncture in reducing nausea and vomiting related to chemotherapy. The report suggested that acupuncture may reduce the vomiting that occurs shortly after chemotherapy is given, even though it had little effect on nausea. It also didn't seem to help vomiting that happened later (delayed vomiting.)


A small clinical trial found acupuncture helped reduce the number of hot flashes men experienced during hormonal therapy for prostate cancer. There is also some evidence that acupuncture may lessen the need for pain medicines. A study of headache sufferers compared acupuncture with standard medical treatment. Those treated with acupuncture used less pain medicines and missed fewer work days. However, some recent studies of acupuncture have had mixed or uncertain results. Part of the problem is that it’s hard to come up with good control procedures (sham acupuncture) for scientific comparisons.


A number of studies have looked at acupuncture for helping smokers quit. Experts reviewed studies in which acupuncture was used to help reduce the withdrawal symptoms from quitting smoking. When the studies were analyzed as a group, the evidence suggested that sham acupuncture (placebo) worked as well as real acupuncture for smoking cessation. Similar results were found when studies of acupuncture for cocaine withdrawal were analyzed.


Although the scientific evidence is not strong, acupuncture may prove to be useful by itself or combined with mainstream therapies to treat headache, menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, osteoarthritis, lower back pain, carpal tunnel syndrome and asthma, and to help in the rehabilitation of stroke patients. Further research is needed in these areas.


Controlled clinical studies of electroacupuncture have suggested that it may help some people with pain after surgery, some of the nausea related to chemotherapy, and renal colic (pain from kidney stones.) However, it was found ineffective in a study that compared it to conventional anesthesia during in vitro fertilization (IVF).

[Pixel42]

If you were seriously interested, you'd find these on the web because I've seen such information.
And yet no-one who has come here and claimed such information exists (and you are the latest in a long line) had ever been able to point to any that stands up to scrutiny. Check any previous thread on the subject and see how the "lazy" sceptics patiently investigate and demolish it.

[rudeboy]

And yet no-one who has come here and claimed such information exists (and you are the latest in a long line) had ever been able to point to any that stands up to scrutiny. Check any previous thread on the subject and see how the "lazy" sceptics patiently investigate and demolish it.



try
mbmc dot org/healthgate/GetHGContent.aspx?token=9c315661-83b7-472d-a7ab-bc8582171f86&chunkiid=155244

[rudeboy]

And yet no-one who has come here and claimed such information exists (and you are the latest in a long line) had ever been able to point to any that stands up to scrutiny. Check any previous thread on the subject and see how the "lazy" sceptics patiently investigate and demolish it.

From a friend:

My father, a medical doctor with good international reputation,
taught us that we must beware Western medical establishment, because
the doctors don't actually know much more about health and sickness
than "ordinary" people. Considering that at least 80% of the Western
doctors I've encountered during my life, either mis-diagnosed or were
totally unable to diagnose my problems, and accordingly gave harmful
medicine or no treatment at all, the studies about natural methods
look very positive.

My father told me never to subject myself to anything that is not
absolutely necessary and his knowledge was based on doctor's practice
both here and in the States, where he learned about the most blatant
violations towards human health and dignity - something which also is
not anymore a secret if one cares to find out about it. Remember the
case of the 6 men who went into coma when they were given "tested,
safe" medicine? They will never be functional in their lives - not
because of their original sickness but as a result of Western
"scientific" medicine. They got into the news, because the case was
so remarkable and made good news, but every second people all over
the world suffer and/or die because of incorrect use of incorrect
Western diagnosis and Western medicine.

Somehow Western sceptics have never anything to say about all the
Western medication, which in large part depends on "belief" - at its
best not doing anything, at its worst destroying health or killing -
plenty of verification available for anybody who wants to make an
*objective* study, but sceptics of natural medicine close their eyes
from this - as you do when you read the articles which you sent me.
You read it with one intention and ignore whatever there goes against
your conviction.

This is very tiresome. I don't force anybody to believe anything,; I
hope the same courtesy from others. I have given you some
information you could use in your studies but what you do with the
information is up to you. I

[Cavemonster]

Rudeboy-
Every day, there are multiple claims here, from psychic healing to alternate history. They would all be very interesting if they were true, but a complete waste of time if, as most of them are, they are lies and misapprehension.

That's why we put the burden of proof on people who come here with claims. We don't infringe your right to believe what you wish, although skeptics tend to advocate that everyone measure their beliefs against evidence, that's our belief and we take it pretty seriously.

Acupuncture has been brought up here before, many times. Try a search of the forum. For us to go out looking for evidence of your claim now would be a bit like coming running when the boy cries "Wolf!" for about the 1millionth time. Come here with solid evidence for your claims or they will be shot down. We'd love to see proof of acupuncture, homeopathy, or psychic healing working. Any of these would make the world a better place if they actually worked.

[tsig]

From a friend:

My father, a medical doctor with good international reputation,
taught us that we must beware Western medical establishment, because
the doctors don't actually know much more about health and sickness
than "ordinary" people. Considering that at least 80% of the Western
doctors I've encountered during my life, either mis-diagnosed or were
totally unable to diagnose my problems, and accordingly gave harmful
medicine or no treatment at all, the studies about natural methods
look very positive.

My father told me never to subject myself to anything that is not
absolutely necessary and his knowledge was based on doctor's practice
both here and in the States, where he learned about the most blatant
violations towards human health and dignity - something which also is
not anymore a secret if one cares to find out about it. Remember the
case of the 6 men who went into coma when they were given "tested,
safe" medicine? They will never be functional in their lives - not
because of their original sickness but as a result of Western
"scientific" medicine. They got into the news, because the case was
so remarkable and made good news, but every second people all over
the world suffer and/or die because of incorrect use of incorrect
Western diagnosis and Western medicine.

Somehow Western sceptics have never anything to say about all the
Western medication, which in large part depends on "belief" - at its
best not doing anything, at its worst destroying health or killing -
plenty of verification available for anybody who wants to make an
*objective* study, but sceptics of natural medicine close their eyes
from this - as you do when you read the articles which you sent me.
You read it with one intention and ignore whatever there goes against
your conviction.

This is very tiresome. I don't force anybody to believe anything,; I
hope the same courtesy from others. I have given you some
information you could use in your studies but what you do with the
information is up to you. I

Why should we believe you or your father. All I see are stories with no more substance than the boogyman.

Your implication that we need to do "studies" is condescending and rude.

[Ladewig]

Remember the case of the 6 men who went into coma when they were given "tested, safe" medicine?


No, but do you remember the case of 600,000 people whose lives were dramatically improved because of properly tested, safe medicine? The vast majority of medicines are safe for the vast majority of patients when these drugs are taken in an appropriate manner.

Furthermore, one is left to wonder why western medicine's approach to cancer has survival rates many time higher than alternative medicine's approach.

This is very tiresome. I don't force anybody to believe anything,; I
hope the same courtesy from others.

And we don't force anyone to believe anything either. We are, however interested in the evidence that you used to determine the effectiveness of non-western treatments.

As for the tone that sometimes arises in threads like this one, that may be the result of people dying because they forgo proven treatments and instead focus on alternative medicine.

[Pixel42]

try
mbmc dot org/healthgate/GetHGContent.aspx?token=9c315661-83b7-472d-a7ab-bc8582171f86&chunkiid=155244
Try:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/jan/20/acupuncture-headaches-migraine-placebo

Acupuncture can clearly have a powerful placebo effect on pain. That doesn't mean that it works (in the sense that aspirin, which has been proven to be a more effective painkiller than placebo, works), let alone that qi exists.

[Pixel42]

Just noticed (slightly too late to edit the link into my previous post) that the new study I refer to above is being discussed in this thread:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=133519

That would probably be a better place to continue the discussion on acupuncture, which is OT for this thread.

[rudeboy]

Why should we believe you or your father. All I see are stories with no more substance than the boogyman.

Your implication that we need to do "studies" is condescending and rude.

its not my dad but the dad of the person who told me theres evidence for acunpuncture. But so far i dont see that evidence. Shes leaving me embarrassed before the skeptics

[Cavemonster]

its not my dad but the dad of the person who told me theres evidence for acunpuncture. But so far i dont see that evidence. Shes leaving me embarrassed before the skeptics

Don't stress too much, I've been left out to dry by relying on second hand info more than once as well.

It's a bad habit, and one that folks here getting on my case has helped to break me of. I actually value the hostility here more than the friendliness, it's through trial by fire that I challenge my own beliefs and learn to be rigorous in what I accept.

[Cuddles]

Remember the case of the 6 men who went into coma when they were given "tested, safe" medicine?

There are two important points here. Firstly, the safety and/or efficiacy of one branch of medicine has exactly nothing to do with the safety and efficiacy of any other branch. If one particular treatment is shown to be dangerous or useless, that does not imply that all other treatments must be as well. And it certainly does not somehow imply that nonsensical mysticism must be true.

Secondly, I assume this is refering to this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4807042.stm) trial, in which a new, experimental, untested drug was being in fact being tested in humans for the first time. I'm not exactly sure what definition of tested and safe this person is using, but it doesn't appear to bear any relation to the real world.

Finally, please note that this thread is about feng shui. Discussions of acupuncture, the evils of western medicine and so on should be taken elsewhere.