The Patterson Film Prints & Casts

[Crowlogic]

A lot of discussion has been raised concerning the nature of the prints in the Patterson Film. Some of that discussion has centered around the "too perfect nature" of the casts and some of the prints.

However assuming that the tracks to be cast were imperfect due to soil flinging and material back filling the prints Patterson could have easily cleaned up the unwanted material. After all who was going to know? If Patterson did in fact stamp phony tracks how and why are some of the details discussed apparent in some of the tracks and not all of the tracks? The so called mid tarsal break has at times been attributed to the effect of nothing more than the big rubber costume feet of the mime in the suit. Lastly the film has been undergoing analysis for 40 years and why in those 40 years until now did nobody propose that the appearance of the prints look stamped? Its also worth considering that the operation of stamping the phony track line across the film site would have left a cluster of boot prints left by the hoaxers as they did their print stamping. Human activity around each and every print has never been mentioned while evidence of casting some prints has.

I've added these photos the Patterson site photos and some others which show some very nice clean prints made by natural walking by natural walkers. The fossilized print obviously was not a stamped hoax but sure preserved cleanly and if cast would raise a few eyebrows as to its nature. Also take notice of what appears to be a mid tarsal break in the human tracks across the beach.


http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/CrowLogik/thum_79347ab2dc56368e.jpg
http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/CrowLogik/laverty2.jpg
http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/CrowLogik/post-4722-1202581998.jpg
http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/CrowLogik/post-4722-1202581898.jpg
http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/CrowLogik/post-4722-1202581940.jpg

[Monketey Ghost]

I thought the guy admitted his fakery before he died. Maybe I shouldn't have fed this thread.

[Skeptical Greg]

Lastly the film has been undergoing analysis for 40 years and why in those 40 years until now did nobody propose that the appearance of the prints look stamped? Because, for the most part, no one but proponents thought the prints were really made by a Bigfoot, and worth the trouble of investigating.

One of the favorite frames ( the one that Giganto is using in his current argument .. ) of the PGF shows the heel planted and the toes up in the air.. Planting the heel and rolling the foot forward on the ball, then pushing off, creates a very different type of print than what we see in the alleged casts from the PGF ..

P.S.
Your ' mid-tarsal ' break, is just a pressure ridge from pushing off on the ball of the foot; and sorely lacking in the PGF and most supposed Bigfoot tracks.. We have discussed it ad nauseam before..

[William Parcher]

Its also worth considering that the operation of stamping the phony track line across the film site would have left a cluster of boot prints left by the hoaxers as they did their print stamping. Human activity around each and every print has never been mentioned while evidence of casting some prints has.


Do you want to consider that as an issue? You have read our discussion of this before in the 411 PGF. Laverty & Titmus should have expected to see bootprints around the Patty tracks. They should have seen evidence of kneeling near the prints that had been cast by RP. They should have seen evidence of the stomp test (deeper than typical bootprints where BG jumped off a log next to the Patty prints). The testimony of P&G about the various stride measurements would support the idea that they walked the full length of her observable trackway. Yes, it makes sense that Laverty & Titmus would see bootprints all throughout the Patty trackway. I don't exactly know how a person would determine if those bootprints were laid down in the process of creating fake tracks as opposed to inspecting the trackway and individual tracks. When Gimlin goes back to cover tracks with bark, he presumably needs to decides which tracks to cover - again he is walking amongst the trackway.

I have always found it curious that Titmus was able to tease out RP's tracks at the time of filming from amongst what must have been an array of bootprints.

[Crowlogic]

I thought the guy admitted his fakery before he died. Maybe I shouldn't have fed this thread.

Roger Patterson never confessed to a hoax. Ray Wallace confessed to hoaxing tracks.

[Crowlogic]

Do you want to consider that as an issue? You have read our discussion of this before in the 411 PGF. Laverty & Titmus should have expected to see bootprints around the Patty tracks. They should have seen evidence of kneeling near the prints that had been cast by RP. They should have seen evidence of the stomp test (deeper than typical bootprints where BG jumped off a log next to the Patty prints). The testimony of P&G about the various stride measurements would support the idea that they walked the full length of her observable trackway. Yes, it makes sense that Laverty & Titmus would see bootprints all throughout the Patty trackway. I don't exactly know how a person would determine if those bootprints were laid down in the process of creating fake tracks as opposed to inspecting the trackway and individual tracks. When Gimlin goes back to cover tracks with bark, he presumably needs to decides which tracks to cover - again he is walking amongst the trackway.

I have always found it curious that Titmus was able to tease out RP's tracks at the time of filming from amongst what must have been an array of bootprints.

My issue is that the whatever Patterson filmed is whatever made the tracks. The idea that crisp clean tracks automatically indicate hoax is deflated by the appearance of non hoax known tracks that could present a caster with a very staged (read hoaxed) print cast. Yes there are some nice looking tracks associated with Bluff Creek in both cast and image. But there are a lot of nice tracks of all sorts of things and nice crisp tracks and casts don't a hoax of seperate from film subject (Patty) make.

[William Parcher]

Ray Wallace confessed to hoaxing tracks.

He did?

[JcR]

Wallace as far as I know never confessed. Think it was some
reporter's article that started that rumor.
Not even sure if Wallace had anything to do with the first
castings made in California, certainly didn't start all this (not sure what to call it anymore).
"Wooden slippers in a box even a Bigfoot would be proud to wear"

[Crowlogic]

Wallace's actions as hoaxer were uncovered as wittness in the NG Bigfoot Video. So is Wallace a known hoaxer with cohorts having demonstrated how the hoaxes were done and some of the hoax props discovered. Yes Ray Wallace is confirmed to have hoaxed tracks as well as having put his wife in a suit to film. Jeez that's common knowledge by now you boys know that, don't you? Hehehe!

[kitakaze]

Roger Patterson never confessed to a hoax. Ray Wallace confessed to hoaxing tracks.

No, he didn't.

Wallace's actions as hoaxer were uncovered as wittness in the NG Bigfoot Video. So is Wallace a known hoaxer with cohorts having demonstrated how the hoaxes were done and some of the hoax props discovered. Yes Ray Wallace is confirmed to have hoaxed tracks as well as having put his wife in a suit to film. Jeez that's common knowledge by now you boys know that, don't you? Hehehe!

Confirmed to have hoaxed tracks, yes. That's not the same. Do you have a link to Ray Wallace publicly admitting hoaxing tracks?

Paul Freeman, who is an admitted hoaxer, is the source of track evidence considered genuine by Bigfooters such as Jeff Meldrum.

[William Parcher]

Yes Ray Wallace is confirmed to have hoaxed tracks as well as having put his wife in a suit to film.


He did?

[Blackdog]

Yes Ray Wallace is confirmed to have hoaxed tracks as well as having put his wife in a suit to film. Jeez that's common knowledge by now you boys know that, don't you? Hehehe!
Sorry Crow back to BF101 for you. I'd tell you who did it and who said it but I think you need to do your own research.
One thing I do agree with you about is that it is common knowledge.

[Crowlogic]

No, he didn't.



Confirmed to have hoaxed tracks, yes. That's not the same. Do you have a link to Ray Wallace publicly admitting hoaxing tracks?

Paul Freeman, who is an admitted hoaxer, is the source of track evidence considered genuine by Bigfooters such as Jeff Meldrum.

Ray is dead I don't think he'll mind and I don't think anyone with reasonable sense will deny that Ray Wallace had way with big wooden feet. Unless you can prove Ray Wallace never hoaxed any tracks. Unless you can prove that Ray's cohorts demonstrating being towed behind a truck stomping out tracks in cahoots with Ray Wallace makes Ray a non hoaxer. So I will correct it just for you kitty. Ray's son holding up the wooden feet that Ray made and Mrs Wallace explaing how Ray was such a craftsman making the feet. Do you think that perhaps little elves came and made the feet and stomped around in them. Well do you think it was little elves? Or do you think it was Ol' Ray and the boys having a hoot?

Paul Freeman is a hoaxer start to finish. I'm not responsible for anything Jeff Meldrum may or may not think. I don't hoax Bigfoot tracks. I don't hoax any tracks.

[kitakaze]

*cough* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK--v1j0L3E)

[kitakaze]

So I will correct it just for you kitty. Ray's son holding up the wooden feet that Ray made and Mrs Wallace explaing how Ray was such a craftsman making the feet. Do you think that perhaps little elves came and made the feet and stomped around in them. Well do you think it was little elves? Or do you think it was Ol' Ray and the boys having a hoot?

:boggled: Ray's family members displaying his Bigfoot goofiness after he passed away is not the same as Ray getting a conscience and coming clean to the press.

Your Bigfoot 101 stinks. Pee-yeew. That's ok. Why, just not so long ago I got my Ivan Marx mixed up with my Ivan Sanderson! My oh my, Heavens to Betsy! I almost fainted, I felt like such a Nelly, dear. You just pull those socks up and you'll be right as rain.

[GT/CS]

Crow, have you noticed that Rick and others keep trying to derail that thread by talking about Tube's walking stick, Melissa and stolen ash (what's that about?), and anything else they can think of to avoid the issue? I'll bet their tactics will work and the thread will be dead within 2 days. Good thing you brought here for a proper discussion!

[Crowlogic]

:boggled: Ray's family members displaying his Bigfoot goofiness after he passed away is not the same as Ray getting a conscience and coming clean to the press.

Your Bigfoot 101 stinks. Pee-yeew. That's ok. Why, just not so long ago I got my Ivan Marx mixed up with my Ivan Sanderson! My oh my, Heavens to Betsy! I almost fainted, I felt like such a Nelly, dear. You just pull those socks up and you'll be right as rain.


No but is sure aired out his soiled long johns! Thank you I'd worry about myself if I was anal as you and some of the other usual suspects are about this stuff. So kit did you do anything important today?

[Crowlogic]

Crow, have you noticed that Rick and others keep trying to derail that thread by talking about Tube's walking stick, Melissa and stolen ash (what's that about?), and anything else they can think of to avoid the issue? I'll bet their tactics will work and the thread will be dead within 2 days. Good thing you brought here for a proper discussion!

It won't get a proper discussion here either I'm afraid.

[LTC8K6]

Those Laverty photos kinda look like they are all from different feet...

Of course, we've been over that 11 dozen times already...

[Crowlogic]

Those Laverty photos kinda look like they are all from different feet...

Of course, we've been over that 11 dozen times already...

Then don't trouble yourself by comming back. But sometimes even after somethings been done 11 times the charm is in the 12th time.

[William Parcher]

But sometimes even after somethings been done 11 times the charm is in the 12th time.


... and reoriented and flipped images adds the charm.


http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/CrowLogik/laverty2.jpg

[LTC8K6]

Then don't trouble yourself by comming back.

It's no trouble, Crow.

I was already here anyway. :D

and reoriented and flipped images adds the charm.

You had that ready! :)

[Crowlogic]

... and reoriented and flipped images adds the charm.


http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/CrowLogik/laverty2.jpg

OK they've been flipped. Now what?

[William Parcher]

OK they've been flipped. Now what?


We savor the charm.

[Drewbot]

I just got done mixing up Owen Caddy/ Owen Pate/ and Jim McLaren over at the BFF. And it was during a conversation with DDA, so I looked extra-bumbling.

Ray Wallace did confess to his family, so the idea that he didn't confess is kind of not true in a way.

CROW- Tag this thread with 'Bigfoot' Will ya please?

[William Parcher]

Ray Wallace did confess to his family...


He did?

[Crowlogic]

He did?

He did?

I did.
You did.
He she and it did.

Confessed or otherwise Ray was is now known to have gone a trottin with some fancy cellulose footware.

[LTC8K6]

We savor the charm.

Yeah, we nearly flipped over photo angles... :D

[LTC8K6]

I think I'm going to start saying, "Watch the film" a lot...

[Drewbot]

He did?

http://home.clara.net/rfthomas/news/bfisdead.html

He confessed to Mark Chorvinsky, and to his family it was common knowledge, so I guess a confession wasn't necessary.

"Ray told me that the Patterson film was a hoax, and he knew who was in the suit," Chorvinsky said.

Michael Wallace said family members knew about his father's hoax but never let on.

"The family just sat back and grinned," he said. "He didn't mean to hurt anyone."

To them, it was just another one of Mr. Wallace's jokes. Like the time he dropped a powerful firecracker down the chimney of a bunkhouse while loggers played cards inside. Or the time he convinced his crew that wild cats with bushy tails were living in forest treetops.

[LONGTABBER PE]

A lot of discussion has been raised concerning the nature of the prints in the Patterson Film. Some of that discussion has centered around the "too perfect nature" of the casts and some of the prints.

However assuming that the tracks to be cast were imperfect due to soil flinging and material back filling the prints Patterson could have easily cleaned up the unwanted material. After all who was going to know? If Patterson did in fact stamp phony tracks how and why are some of the details discussed apparent in some of the tracks and not all of the tracks? The so called mid tarsal break has at times been attributed to the effect of nothing more than the big rubber costume feet of the mime in the suit. Lastly the film has been undergoing analysis for 40 years and why in those 40 years until now did nobody propose that the appearance of the prints look stamped? Its also worth considering that the operation of stamping the phony track line across the film site would have left a cluster of boot prints left by the hoaxers as they did their print stamping. Human activity around each and every print has never been mentioned while evidence of casting some prints has.

I've added these photos the Patterson site photos and some others which show some very nice clean prints made by natural walking by natural walkers. The fossilized print obviously was not a stamped hoax but sure preserved cleanly and if cast would raise a few eyebrows as to its nature. Also take notice of what appears to be a mid tarsal break in the human tracks across the beach.


http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/CrowLogik/thum_79347ab2dc56368e.jpg
http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/CrowLogik/laverty2.jpg
http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/CrowLogik/post-4722-1202581998.jpg
http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/CrowLogik/post-4722-1202581898.jpg
http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/CrowLogik/post-4722-1202581940.jpg

>>>If Patterson did in fact stamp phony tracks how and why are some of the details discussed apparent in some of the tracks and not all of the tracks?

Several reasons, not each and every print is photographed with a sequence number, theres a big difference between examining tracks in situ versus a picture and the way he stamped could have caused variations

>>>Lastly the film has been undergoing analysis for 40 years and why in those 40 years until now did nobody propose that the appearance of the prints look stamped?

You can attribute that to ( you guessed it) BIGFOOT science. NOT THE FIRST PERSON to examine anything is a TRAINED and QUALIFIED "anything". I havent seen a forensic podiatry qualification ( or anthing really) from the bunch so what would you expect?

>>>Its also worth considering that the operation of stamping the phony track line across the film site would have left a cluster of boot prints left by the hoaxers as they did their print stamping.

Not at all- the ground could have been selected where a man wouldnt sink to give the stampings illusions of great weight

>>>Human activity around each and every print has never been mentioned while evidence of casting some prints has.

see #2 above LOL

[William Parcher]

I think these are all the same cast. I think this cast has been attributed to Titmus but was actually cast by Patterson and we see him doing it on film. Books say that Titmus cast 10 consecutive Patty footprints. I think he did fewer and that some were done by Patterson. I think this cast was not one of the two held up and shown to us by Patterson in the cast display scene.


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/775d3ee4.png

[LTC8K6]

Agreed. They are all the same single "track".

[William Parcher]

I wasn't sure anyone would agree with me. It's a pretty radical concept I'm putting forth.

Here is another connection which you've seen before. I think this (Titmus) cast came from this filmed track. But it may not have been poured by Titmus either. Patterson may have poured plaster into several tracks as part of the plaster pour session. The short clip we see shows only one being cast. This one here represents the "prior track"...


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/f41edbef.gif

[William Parcher]

Here is another somewhat radical idea. I think that these two casts were made in the same footprint. It's a footprint shown in the trackway pan (see above post). I think that Patterson poured plaster into this track creating the detailed cast shown on the left. Then later Titmus may have poured plaster into the exact same (now smoothed and weathered) track. So, instead of two consecutive left footprints... we have two casts poured into the same track.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/ab22d96b.jpg

[William Parcher]

Consecutive? Yes. But were these two cast by Titmus or Patterson?

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/df9dbcd1.png

[LTC8K6]

Interesting. Weathered vs fresh...

[Howie Felterbush]

Wow.

I thought this was a new thread (didn't look at the date).

For a minute there I thought Longtabber was back.

Back to your regularly scheduled Bigfootery...

[AlaskaBushPilot]

Not sure where the best place to put this is. There's been a lot of discussion of the tracks along the creek and road.

First this, posted by Parnassus:

http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/paulbsonm/bfWallacetracks.jpg


Oh my God, how horrifyingly stupid! It hurts!

Then a picture posted by William Parcher to learn a little bit about how a water body deposits boulders, gravel, and fines:

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/58cdb17f.jpg

I have a stream nearby my property that I use for sand, gravel, rock, and mud. I make concrete, masonry cement, gravel for the driveway and stones for a decorative garden there. The stream does all the sorting for me.

I know a little about placer mining (stream mining), and it's the same knowledge. The mechanical energy of the water determines the kinds of deposits in each area.

If you look at the picture, you see the largest visible rocks closest to or in the water itself. The fines are in a little higher ground in the middle of the picture.

That's because as high water subsides it deposits fines, especially on the slow-moving inside edge of the corners away from the main current.

That's the big picture, but there's a lot more going on than that. If you study a stream you will note that below a large obstruction there is always an eddy where the mechanical energy of the water is much lower. There will be much smaller-sized particles deposited there.

If there is a slough angled off somewhere that allows for standing water, then that is where you will find the flour-like silts - stuff that is really easy to leave deep tracks in once the water level drops or a standing pool evaporates.

In a scene like that depicted above you are going to have a surprisingly diverse set of ground conditions where the water has sorted for you every single kind of particle and substance found in the area. You can choose to walk across cobblestones, gravel, pea-gravel, sand, or muddy silts for some distance, and what you are doing is following a mechanical energy constant.

A hoaxer is going to do what you see them doing in the upper photo: pick the ideal conditions to lay tracks. In that photo, it is on the side of the road where there is loose soil and since no animals walk there and no vehicles drive there they will be preserved.

That's what they did at the P-G film site, in two ways: you are conscious not just about where you want to place the fake ones, but also conscious about minimizing your own human prints.

It is extremely simple to walk along gravel in your cowboy boots up to the perimeter of a silty area, remove your boots, slip on the Patty feet, and do the reverse at the end of the silt run. The only prints that remain to be seen are the fake ones.

You can make your tracks a little deeper by jiggling a little bit, especially if the material is water-sogged beneath the surface or has organics in it. What happens when you step into the muck at the edge of a pond? Right up to your knees. If you jiggle around you'll just sink deeper. Just a few feet away you are standing on hard ground that leaves no footprints.

The site they chose was ideal both for filming and by inspection for both laying down fake tracks and leaving no evidence of your ancillary movements.

I moved this post from another thread since it seems a much better fit here. Cheers, LashL

[AlaskaBushPilot]

I think these are all the same cast. I think this cast has been attributed to Titmus but was actually cast by Patterson and we see him doing it on film. Books say that Titmus cast 10 consecutive Patty footprints. I think he did fewer and that some were done by Patterson.


Here is an account of the "Master Tracker" Titmus by Peter Byrne:

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/stories/byrne_on_titmus.htm

I found this story absolutely hilarious and encourage people to read it - how they all conned Tom Slick out of cash.

Titmus didn't know the difference between horse poop and hominid poop, and was ethically challenged to say the least insofar as bigfootery.

Hard to trust whatever Titmus says.


Not too complimentary towards Rene Dahinden and John Greene as well.