Winter War Russia

[moon1969]

Should Putin admit that Russia started the Winter War against Finland on November 30 1939 and should Putin apologize? :mad: Finland would have never bee in WW2 if Russia had not made the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and then shot the Shelling of Mainila and started the Winter War. I for one can"t frgive Russia for the Winter war of November 30 1939. :mad:

[Alareth]

Honestly, you need to stop living in the past.

[Travis]

What would be accomplished if Putin did? I mean the Fins aren't living in mortal fear of another Russian invasion are they?

[WildCat]

How old was Putin in 1939?

[dudalb]

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/SB/Winterwar/winterwar.html

Maybe somebody should buy this and get it out of his system..though whether he can beat the game's Russian AI is questionable.
The AI in this series of games is formidable.

[Tailgater]

How old was Putin in 1939?

negative 13

[Bikewer]

Cute bit about Putin:

NPR was interviewing one of President Reagan's state-department staffers the other day. He recounted one of the trips to the Soviet Union back then, and how he was surprised that there were so many tourists snapping pictures of the entourage.
His FBI "minder" laughed and said that all the "tourists" were KGB or their families. The guy started snapping pictures of the tourists.
Years later, while going through some of his old stuff, he chanced on this group of photos and looked them over. There was Putin, camera in hand, in "tourist" drag.

[Thunder]

Putin should not only take responsibility for the war..but he should be tried and executed.

is that what u want to hear?

[Thunder]

What would be accomplished if Putin did? I mean the Fins aren't living in mortal fear of another Russian invasion are they?

They should be...as Finland actually is ancestral Russian land...the Russians should take it back and do away with all those silly "Finns".

[dudalb]

They should be...as Finland actually is ancestral Russian land...the Russians should take it back and do away with all those silly "Finns".


You are kidding, are'nt you?

[egslim]

I for one can"t frgive Russia for the Winter war of November 30 1939. :mad:
All the people responsible for those decisions are long dead now. Get over it.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Should Putin admit that Russia started the Winter War against Finland on November 30 1939 and should Putin apologize? :mad: Finland would have never bee in WW2 if Russia had not made the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and then shot the Shelling of Mainila and started the Winter War. I for one can"t frgive Russia for the Winter war of November 30 1939. :mad:

At the time, Finland was crawling with Nazis. Russia went in to throw them out. I will always be grateful to Russia for that.

[fuelair]

They should be...as Finland actually is ancestral Russian land...the Russians should take it back and do away with all those silly "Finns".

Like Finn McCool and Finn Eganswake?

[Thunder]

At the time, Finland was crawling with Nazis. Russia went in to throw them out. I will always be grateful to Russia for that.

Here Here!! The Soviets were bad..but the Nazis were much much worse.

In this case..the enemy of my enemy was my friend. The USA, Britain, and France has NOTHING to apologize for or be ashamed of for making this alliance of convenience and necessity with the USSR during WW2.

[Tolls]

Here Here!! The Soviets were bad..but the Nazis were much much worse.

In this case..the enemy of my enemy was my friend. The USA, Britain, and France has NOTHING to apologize for or be ashamed of for making this alliance of convenience and necessity with the USSR during WW2.

However, from Finlands point of view the Soviets were worse since they had, after all, invaded them in 1939...unprovoked. So, the enemy of my enemy...etc etc.

[dudalb]

I love the apologists for Uncle Joe who are showing up.

[oggiesnr]

Blair apologised for the Irish Famine, Slavery and God knows what else. What difference did it make? Nowt!

Apologies for historical events are press stunts aimed at a few more column inches.

Steve

[moon1969]

So did Finland deserve the 1939 Winter War? It was very humiliating for people who used to live in Karelia. But I don"t need symphaties from the americans who were the bigest allies of the russians. Yes Finland should have been invaded by Stalin after the Winter War because Stalin had every right to start the Winter War and genocide the finns. LOL if Katyn Forest massacre happend in Poland what do you think would have happend to the finns and Finland if the USSR would have won the Winter War? I don"t hate jews and could care less about them but I do hate the russians and as a grandson of a karelian I think I have every right to hate the russians. :mad:

[Thunder]

Um....is this a question or a rhetorical debate with yourself?

[dtugg]

So did Finland deserve the 1939 Winter War? It was very humiliating for people who used to live in Karelia. But I don"t need symphaties from the americans who were the bigest allies of the russians. Yes Finland should have been invaded by Stalin after the Winter War because Stalin had every right to start the Winter War and genocide the finns. LOL if Katyn Forest massacre happend in Poland what do you think would have happend to the finns and Finland if the USSR would have won the Winter War? I don"t hate jews and could care less about them but I do hate the russians and as a grandson of a karelian I think I have every right to hate the russians. :mad:

What is your problem?

And regarding the bolded:

http://19.media.tumblr.com/Y2NA1ciNoim2cf2gQg2PKhL1o1_400.png

[The Central Scrutinizer]

So did Finland deserve the 1939 Winter War?

Yes

It was very humiliating for people who used to live in Karelia. But I don"t need symphaties from the americans who were the bigest allies of the russians. Yes Finland should have been invaded by Stalin after the Winter War because Stalin had every right to start the Winter War and genocide the finns. LOL if Katyn Forest massacre happend in Poland what do you think would have happend to the finns and Finland if the USSR would have won the Winter War? I don"t hate jews and could care less about them but I do hate the russians and as a grandson of a karelian I think I have every right to hate the russians. :mad:

I love the Russians. Because they kill Finns.

[Elizabeth I]

http://19.media.tumblr.com/Y2NA1ciNoim2cf2gQg2PKhL1o1_400.png

:bigclap

May I steal that?

[dtugg]

Sure. It's not I made it anyway. :)

[Nogbad]

Should Putin admit that Russia started the Winter War against Finland on November 30 1939 and should Putin apologize? :mad: Finland would have never bee in WW2 if Russia had not made the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and then shot the Shelling of Mainila and started the Winter War. I for one can"t frgive Russia for the Winter war of November 30 1939. :mad:

We would never have noticed ;)

[paximperium]

Has the Norwegians invaded and destroyed Finland yet?

[dudalb]

Get it out of your system once and for all.Moon:

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/SB/Winterwar/winterwar.html


Good game, btw.

[drkitten]

So did Finland deserve the 1939 Winter War?

Yes.

It picked the wrong country to tick off.

But I don"t need symphaties from the americans who were the bigest allies of the russians.

That's good, because you don't get mine.

Yes Finland should have been invaded by Stalin after the Winter War because Stalin had every right to start the Winter War and genocide the finns.

Fortunately, Stalin didn't genocide the Finns. Your posts make me wish he had.

LOL if Katyn Forest massacre happend in Poland what do you think would have happend to the finns and Finland if the USSR would have won the Winter War?

The same thing that did happen to the Finns when the USSR did win the Winter War.

I don't know how to put this to you --- but you LOST. The winning side of a war isn't the one that cedes Karelia and the second largest city in the country. If the Finns had won, then Leningrad would be Finnish-speaking today.

I do hate the russians and as a grandson of a karelian I think I have every right to hate the russians.

Hmm,.... nope. Still not an ounce of sympathy for you. What else you got?

[Thunder]

Any nation that puts the Swastika on their Air Force planes..deserves a good Russian invasion.

[Alareth]

moon, it's been 70 years. It's doubtful that anyone involved with the start of the Winter War is still alive. Let it go.

Continuous threads whining about it here are not going to do anything except make you a subject of mockery.

No one in the current Russian government has any reason to apologize for those events. Nobody in it was in any way involved. The government that caused it was toppled and replaced more than 20 years ago.

Your obsession is pointless.

[Thunder]

Now I know never to piss off a Finn. They keep 80 year old grudges over nothing.

and by the way, do I as the descendant of Jews who fled the Nazis, and who had several relatives die in the gas chambers, hate the Germans of 2009?

Of course not. The Germans of 2009 have nothing to do with the Germans of 1939.

[drkitten]

Now I know never to piss off a Finn.

Most of them aren't that bad. Most of them are practical sorts.

The ones that are that stubborn and who do keep 80 year old grudges over nothing tend to die in winter storms. Evolution in action. Average intelligence in Oulu goes up by a fraction of a percent.

[paximperium]

Most of them aren't that bad. Most of them are practical sorts.

The ones that are that stubborn and who do keep 80 year old grudges over nothing tend to die in winter storms. Evolution in action. Average intelligence in Oulu goes up by a fraction of a percent.
I believe they need a little push. I propose that we incite the Swedes to invade Finland and salt their earth with Plutonium.

[brodski]

:bigclap

May I steal that?

Only if you don't get permission, I mean, if you get permission, it's hardly theft is it? in fact there is no meaningful answer which dtugg can give to that question, is there?

Or is the self contradictory phrase "may I steal that" OK now?
These days it is so hard to keep up with which expressions should be analysed literally, and which should be analysed as fixed phrases. ;)

[Thunder]

Continuous threads whining about it here are not going to do anything except make you a subject of mockery.


i think that is the whole point.

[MG1962]

Now I know never to piss off a Finn. They keep 80 year old grudges over nothing.

and by the way, do I as the descendant of Jews who fled the Nazis, and who had several relatives die in the gas chambers, hate the Germans of 2009?

Of course not. The Germans of 2009 have nothing to do with the Germans of 1939.

Over the last few years I have seen documentaries where old combatants are brought together to meet and discuss various elements of the battles they fought against each other. I find it comforting how accomodating they can be to each other

One in particular was some Australians who went to an Afrika Corp reunion. No hatered or lingering nastiness. All the Germans were interested in was getting the Australians as drunk as possible as quickly as possible, and hearing all their funny storys

[kookbreaker]

It seems that moon1969 is to garnering sympathy for the Finns as Serdar Argic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdar_Argic) was at garnering sympathy for the Turks.

Which is saying something since Serdar was outright lying about the Armenian genocide. Takes a lot to manage to lose sympathy when you are the proper victim in this case.

[Comsat Angel]

Any nation that puts the Swastika on their Air Force planes..deserves a good Russian invasion.

Oh dear - it's not a swastika, it's the hakaristi. Three-dimensional and reversed in orientation to the swastika.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x54/ComsatAngel2002/IMAGE_00040.jpg

As seen on display at Bovington Tank Museum. If you want real swastikas, look at the elephant sculptures of the Carlsberg brewery.

And for Mr Central Scrutiniser, the Russians were about the most inefficient killers of Finns you can imagine.

[Eddie Dane]

I love the Russians for what they did during the Russo-Finnish war.

Peasants with one week of training. Green uniforms in a white landscape.
Human wave attacks in the face of well fortified Finns with heavy automatic weapons.

Such a level of strategic incompetence could only be surpassed if Hamas would fire lots of rockets at Israel. But that will never happen because nobody could possibly that stupid...

Oh wait.

[technoextreme]

Should Putin admit that Russia started the Winter War against Finland on November 30 1939 and should Putin apologize? :mad: Finland would have never bee in WW2 if Russia had not made the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and then shot the Shelling of Mainila and started the Winter War. I for one can"t frgive Russia for the Winter war of November 30 1939. :mad:
Fat blimey chance that will every happen. They want to enact rules similar to Holocaust denial when talking about this sort of thing.

[dudalb]

I love the Russians for what they did during the Russo-Finnish war.

Peasants with one week of training. Green uniforms in a white landscape.
Human wave attacks in the face of well fortified Finns with heavy automatic weapons.

Such a level of strategic incompetence could only be surpassed if Hamas would fire lots of rockets at Israel. But that will never happen because nobody could possibly that stupid...

Oh wait.


And the Russians did not have proper clothing for Extreme Cold Weather despite starting the offensive in November.
And the Russians at least learned a lot of lessons from the Winter War which they used against the Germans . Hamas does not seem to learn from it errors at all.

[dudalb]

Any nation that puts the Swastika on their Air Force planes..deserves a good Russian invasion.



Wow, you have just descended to Moon's level.

[Gregoire]

Any nation that puts the Swastika on their Air Force planes..deserves a good Russian invasion.



It seems that most on the board seem to have forgotten that Britain and France actually supported Finland when the Soviets first invaded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

........ Franco-British assistance

The British government sent the Finnish air force 30 Bristol Blenheim bombers. U.S.-made Brewster B239's, came too late to participate in combat missions, and the same applied to ten Hawker Hurricane I fighters. The British government also provided quantities of small arms and ammunition, including a large number of Boys anti-tank rifles in 1939 and 1940. The latter weapon was popular with the Finns, because it could penetrate the armor of Soviet T-26 tanks which they encountered in many engagements.

France also sent aircraft, including the Morane Saulnier M.S.406 fighter. In 1940, it was decided to send a new fighter, the Caudron-Renault C.714. Six C.714s previously marked for shipment to the Polish Air Force were placed in containers and diverted to Le Havre harbour for shipment to Finland. On 12 March 1940, the first six aircraft were already on their way to Finland when news of the armistice between Finland and the Soviet Union was received. At the time deliveries were halted, ten aircraft were in containers at Le Havre waiting to be lifted to the ships and three more were on their way from Paris. The French Army also supplied small arms and ammunition.



Franco-British plans for intervention

Within a month, the Soviet leadership began to consider abandoning the operation, and on 29 January 1940, via intermediaries in Sweden, Finland's government was approached on the subject of preliminary peace negotiations. Until this point, Finland had fought for its existence as an independent and democratic country. However, at the news that Finland might be forced to cede its territory or sovereignty, public opinion in France and Britain, already favorable to Finland, swung in favor of intervention. When rumors of an armistice reached governments in Paris and London, both decided to offer military support.


Franco-British support was offered on the condition their armed forces be given free passage through neutral Norway and Sweden instead of taking the difficult passage from Petsamo.........In February 1940, the Allies offered to help: the Allied plan, approved on 4–5 February by the Allied High Command, consisted of 100,000 British and 35,000 French troops that were to disembark at the Norwegian port of Narvik and support Finland via Sweden while securing supply routes along the way. Plans were made to launch the operation on 20 March under the condition that the Finns first make a formal request for assistance (this was done to avoid German charges that the Franco-British forces constituted an invading army). On 2 March, transit rights were officially requested from the governments of Norway and Sweden. It was hoped that Allied intervention would eventually bring the two still neutral Nordic countries, Norway and Sweden, to the Allied side by strengthening their positions against Germany — although Hitler had by December declared to the Swedish government that Western troops on Swedish soil would immediately provoke a German invasion.



dudalb, maybe this could be made to come up with an historical variant of the game you described:D.

[Gregoire]

Should Putin admit that Russia started the Winter War against Finland on November 30 1939 and should Putin apologize? :mad: Finland would have never bee in WW2 if Russia had not made the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and then shot the Shelling of Mainila and started the Winter War. I for one can"t frgive Russia for the Winter war of November 30 1939. :mad:


Your point is valid if we take it in the context of the rash of apologies given in the 90's to all the people who had a history of being wronged. Even today, we in the US still hear from people who want "reparations" for slavery even though the perpetrators and victims are all long gone.

In the end, however, I must admit all of these apologies are nonsensical. The very fact that we are alive means that all of us had ancestors who were probably ruthless enough to conquer others. And conquests in the past always involved cruelty and exploitation.

The most important question is how do we as individuals behave today. Dwelling on the past I think will ultimately bring us down.

[timhau]

And the Russians did not have proper clothing for Extreme Cold Weather despite starting the offensive in November.

And the Russians feared defections, so they didn't use troops drawn from local population even though they should have been well acquainted with the climate and terrain type. Instead of locals, they brought in soldiers from the Southern parts of the USSR.

[Eddie Dane]

Thinking about it, it is really amazing how much the red army's quality improved after its initial WWII asskicking.

I guess even the Soviet Union could be adaptive if the alternative was death.

[timhau]

I guess even the Soviet Union could be adaptive if the alternative was death.

If it was sudden, violent death, yes. It was a slow, creeping doom that finally brought it down nearly 50 years later.

[kbm99]

Thinking about it, it is really amazing how much the red army's quality improved after its initial WWII asskicking.

I guess even the Soviet Union could be adaptive if the alternative was death.

Is that Herbert West, Reanimator in your avatar?

As to the Soviet Army, given the number of times they reversed such policies as "Can officers command their troops or mere lead by example?" in the years leading up to the war, it's amazing they could all face the same direction at the same time.

[Eddie Dane]

If it was sudden, violent death, yes. It was a slow, creeping doom that finally brought it down nearly 50 years later.

I thought it suddenly collapsed because Reagan gave a really, really good speech???
Wasn't this "slow, creeping doom"-theory just liberal propaganda to deny Reagan's God-given power to bring down superpowers by calling it names?

[Eddie Dane]

Is that Herbert West, Reanimator in your avatar?

As to the Soviet Army, given the number of times they reversed such policies as "Can officers command their troops or mere lead by example?" in the years leading up to the war, it's amazing they could all face the same direction at the same time.

Reanimator, indeed.
I admire your encyclopaedic knowledge of the golden era of romantic comedy.

[timhau]

I thought it suddenly collapsed because Reagan gave a really, really good speech???
Wasn't this "slow, creeping doom"-theory just liberal propaganda to deny Reagan's God-given power to bring down superpowers by calling it names?

Actually, the collapse of the Soviet Union was due to a recession, the only recession the USSR ever knew. The decadent, imperialistic West went through a multitude of recessions of varying severity in the 1900s, while the USSR showed its superiority by undergoing only a single recession. Unfortunately, it started in the late 1910s.

[bobrayner]

Thinking about it, it is really amazing how much the red army's quality improved after its initial WWII asskicking.
I'd argue that the Red Army learnt many valuable lessons from the winter war - and also from the Khalkhyn Gol.

Soviet tactics improved during the winter war; massed infantry attacks were discontinued; artillery was actually aimed at something; Voroshilov took over from Timoshenko; modern tanks and rifles were issued.

After the winter war, the glavnyi voennyi soviet studied the failures and tried to identify the causes & remedy them.

Successes and failures in the winter war highlighted who was competent and who was not. If the winter war (and the Khalkhyn Gol) hadn't happened then people like Mekhlis and Kulik would have had a lot more power/influence on the eve of Barbarossa. A horrifying thought.

Of course, the Red Army was still mostly unprepared for Barbarossa, but things would have turned out even worse on the eastern front if the purged & politicised red army hadn't already had a taste of real modern warfare.

[Dave Rogers]

Soviet tactics improved during the winter war; massed infantry attacks were discontinued; artillery was actually aimed at something; Voroshilov took over from Timoshenko; modern tanks and rifles were issued.

ITYM Timoshenko took over from Voroshilov. The converse doesn't fit my definition of the word "improved".

Dave

[bobrayner]

D'oh. Yes, I put them the wrong way around. Sorry.

[Eddie Dane]

I'd argue that the Red Army learnt many valuable lessons from the winter war - and also from the Khalkhyn Gol.

Soviet tactics improved during the winter war; massed infantry attacks were discontinued; artillery was actually aimed at something; Voroshilov took over from Timoshenko; modern tanks and rifles were issued.

After the winter war, the glavnyi voennyi soviet studied the failures and tried to identify the causes & remedy them.

Successes and failures in the winter war highlighted who was competent and who was not. If the winter war (and the Khalkhyn Gol) hadn't happened then people like Mekhlis and Kulik would have had a lot more power/influence on the eve of Barbarossa. A horrifying thought.

Of course, the Red Army was still mostly unprepared for Barbarossa, but things would have turned out even worse on the eastern front if the purged & politicised red army hadn't already had a taste of real modern warfare.

Interesting.

I have no idea who was responsible for the improvements the red army made. Something to read up on.

[Comsat Angel]

John Erickson's "The Road to Stalingrad" and "The Road to Berlin" are both your friends in this case, especially the gigantic bibliography. Albert Seaton's "The Russo-German War" is also a good single-volume history. bobrayner's point about the Russo-Japanese encounters and the Winter War is a very relevant point.

[bobrayner]

Erickson's books have lots of details but they can be difficult to digest. IMHO there's plenty of fine detail, but not much to tie it together into a bigger picture, and there's a dire shortage of maps. I regret buying them; it's not appropriate to read them cover-to-cover (though I've tried several times) but they're not ideal as reference books either.

(Anybody want my copies? Any recommendations of better books?)

Wikipedia is much maligned but I think it has reasonable coverage of the eastern front, and good mapping too, so for most people it would be a good place to start.