Manners Killed Titanic's Brits as Yanks Fled

[El Greco]

More Britons than Americans died on Titanic 'because they queued' (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/more-britons-than-americans-died-on-titanic-because-they-queued-1452299.html)

Discuss :D

[BillC]

From the article:Americans were 8.5 per cent more likely to survive than other nationalities, while British passengers were 7 per cent less likelyand then everything else is speculation by the researcher:The only things I can put that down to are: there would have been very few Americans in steerage or third class; and the British tend to be very polite and queue.andBut a significantly higher number survived, and there's got to be a reason."In other words, he's noticed the statistic for Titanic, and then pulls reasons for it out of thin air.

[lionking]

Hmmm, University of Queensland? Must be right.;)

I would have thought that survival instinct would have taken over and the Brits would have been clawing away with the rest of them.

[slingblade]

From the article:and then everything else is speculation by the researcher:andIn other words, he's noticed the statistic for Titanic, and then pulls reasons for it out of thin air.

Well, just from the excerpts mind you, it sounds rather more like he noticed an anomaly (or perhaps only perceived one) and is hazarding guesses as to the possible reason(s) why.

Doesn't one have to do that to form a hypothesis, and then verify it? You have to have something to test, look for, compare, right?

But I need to read the whole article; my impressions could be wrong.

[shuttlt]

Hmmm, University of Queensland? Must be right.;)

I would have thought that survival instinct would have taken over and the Brits would have been clawing away with the rest of them.
My understanding is people were remarkably well behaved. He's an example of a yank who didn't 'claw away':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jacob_Astor_IV#Death
Given that he was one of the richest men on the planet at the time, he could presumably have gotten of if he'd wanted to.

[richardm]

Hmmm, University of Queensland? Must be right.;)

I would have thought that survival instinct would have taken over and the Brits would have been clawing away with the rest of them.

I think that in general everyone was well behaved, and that there was very little clawing away done by anyone until it was too late. Some of this good behaviour might have been enforced, e.g. by not letting steerage passengers onto the posh decks, but in general people's attitudes to honourable behaviour were largely different then - look a few years later at the number of people who had been studiously ignoring the idea of going to the trenches until someone sent them a white feather.

[HarryKeogh]

I think a lot more people, of all nationalities, would have survived if that obnoxious movie crew wasn't in the way.

[Foolmewunz]

I think it depends.... Are they counting DiCaprio as Irish, therefore a Brit? Well, I hate to tell them, but HE WAS AN ACTOR, DAMMIT!

Seriously, .... they don't show the data, and you can't judge without seeing it. Were there disproportionately larger numbers of American women and children, for instance? That sounds like a large enough number (total passengers) as a statistical sampling, but it really isn't.

And I'd think that there were likely oh, about zero Americans in steerage, where I'd hazard a guess that there were quite a number of deaths. (That's as bad as the researcher in the article, I realize - I'm just guessing, but it seems a logical guess.)

[richardm]

And I'd think that there were likely oh, about zero Americans in steerage, where I'd hazard a guess that there were quite a number of deaths. (That's as bad as the researcher in the article, I realize - I'm just guessing, but it seems a logical guess.)

Many of the Steerage class passengers were emigrating to the USA, but not all of them; it was just one of the most inexpensive ways to cross the Atlantic. There were 43 American citizens amongst the Third Class passengers - of which only 12 survived. One of the smaller groups to be sure, but not zero. Americans were the biggest group in First Class, incidentally.

[plumjam]

Better insulation and buoyancy.

[Flo]

Better insulation and buoyancy.


They already supersized at the time ?

[Big Les]

I'm going to blog this regardless, but would appreciate any statistical input, as I'm as thick as two short planks.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/more-britons-than-americans-died-on-titanic-because-they-queued-1452299.html

It's a big gap, but it sounds rather a reach to suggest that people died for a lack of assertiveness.

[NotJesus]

"The only things I can put that down to are: there would have been very few Americans in steerage or third class; and the British tend to be very polite and queue." (The ship's first-class staterooms were closest to the lifeboat deck.)

The first point may be more significant. People in steerage did much worse than people in first class.

[Piscivore]

...look a few years later at the number of people who had been studiously ignoring the idea of going to the trenches until someone sent them a white feather.

I'm sorry, what does that mean?

[Big Les]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/11/first-world-war-white-feather-cowardice

Sorry for the dupe thread by the way everyone.

[RobRoy]

I'm sorry, what does that mean?

Giving someone a white feather was an indication that they were thought to be a coward, and was an attempt to spur them to action. I am not aware of it as a practice during World War I, by which I mean I am not versed enough in the history of the time to comment. But I do know that the book, and the subsequent movies The Four Feathers features largely around this concept, where the protagonist is prompted to return each of the four feathers he was given to redeam himself in the eyes of his friends and fiance.

ETA: Apparently, there was an Order of the White Feather (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather#Order_of_the_White_Feather). The specific aim was to prompt women to present white feathers to coerce men to join the British Army. The wikipedia article states that it was highly effective.

[Monketey Ghost]

They already supersized at the time ?

Helloooo...biggest f****in' ship, etc. :D

[Foolmewunz]

Giving someone a white feather was an indication that they were thought to be a coward, and was an attempt to spur them to action. I am not aware of it as a practice during World War I, by which I mean I am not versed enough in the history of the time to comment. But I do know that the book, and the subsequent movies The Four Feathers features largely around this concept, where the protagonist is prompted to return each of the four feathers he was given to redeam himself in the eyes of his friends and fiance.

ETA: Apparently, there was an Order of the White Feather (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather#Order_of_the_White_Feather). The specific aim was to prompt women to present white feathers to coerce men to join the British Army. The wikipedia article states that it was highly effective.

Hey, thanks for that, RR!
I'm pretty well-read on WWI history, but hadn't actually been aware that the white feather was from that period. Credit Hollywood (or Londonollywood). I believe there was an earlier Four Feathers and it was set much earlier than WWI, so I always thought it was a 19th century thing.
Once again, the E in JREF comes through. I love learning something new!

[RobRoy]

Hey, thanks for that, RR!
I'm pretty well-read on WWI history, but hadn't actually been aware that the white feather was from that period. Credit Hollywood (or Londonollywood). I believe there was an earlier Four Feathers and it was set much earlier than WWI, so I always thought it was a 19th century thing.
Once again, the E in JREF comes through. I love learning something new!

The book that I mentioned, The Four Feathers, was published in (IIRC) early 1900 and set in the Sudan starting right before and running through the First War there. So your memory is quite right.

ETA: The book was published in 1902, written by AEW Mason, and is set in 1882 through the end of that decade.

[Foolmewunz]

I was rushing off to a meeting this morning (it's Chinese New Year here and one of my higher ups decided we should use this morning for a group thing... having informed us all last night at ten p.m. - THE SCHMUCK!)...

I looked it up just now..... Yeah, most are familiar with the 2002 version (which may be more in keeping with the novel), but I was thinking of the 1939 version.... Zoltan Korda directing and produced by London Film Productions. (There are evidently at least three other versions.)

So I'm not so addle-pated as I thought, then. Whew!

But I had not, honestly, been aware that the tradition continued up to "The Great War", and was totally unaware of the White Feather Society, so your input is still appreciated.

[Thunder]

Ahh..so the British waited on line..while the Americans....ran for their lives.

Conclusion? Yanks love life more than Brits.

[Alareth]

Americans were the biggest group in First Class, incidentally.

With all things being equal, that would automatically result in more Americans surviving than those limey gits ;)

[al_capone_junior]

Given how many different nationalities were likely on the boat, the statistics might not mean a dang thing anyway.

Suppose there were only 50 Austrians on the boat. If twenty, survived, that means 40% of Austrians survived.

Now suppose there were 25 Russians on the ship, and 5 of them survived. That's 20%.

Thus, you could now claim that Austrians were twice as likely to survive as Russians.

Which looks impressive, but is essentially meaningless.

Since the article didn't include any of the raw data, it's hard to say whether it could even possibly mean anything significant anyway. Add into that the large amount of pure speculation, and I'd say the conclusions reached are nearly 100% BS.

al

[kakariki]

Well you can see a break down of the passengers by nationality and their survival rates (http://www.ithaca.edu/staff/jhenderson/titanic.html). It clearly shows survival was more related to class than nationality, so this article is dubious in its hypothesis.