Help me design a neighborhood surveillance system

[Sherman Bay]

I live in an residential area which has been getting a rash of burglaries recently. Many options are being discussed as to how we can prevent this from continuing.

We have a neighborhood watch group, stickers for windows and cars, and almost everyone knows everyone else, so that gives us an advantage. On the negative side, many homes are occupied only seasonally so break-ins may go undiscovered for a long time.

One idea is to install a surveillance system, with cameras tied to a continuous recording device. In many communities, this might be prohibitively expensive, but we have one big advantage: On the 6-mile stretch of our single road, there is no way on or off of it unless you haul a boat, ATV or snowmobile along with you. So we could have 2 cameras, one at each end, and anyone entering or leaving would be caught on camera.

So here's the design as I see it. Each camera would be mounted in such a way that license numbers could easily be read. We could use a motion-sensing scheme, as traffic is light in the day and very light at night.

Each camera would have to be connected to a recording device. There are homes close by so we could have the recording device in a home and this would prevent someone from wiping out past records by taking out the camera alone.

I envision a WiFi enabled camera, either powered by AC or solar, transmitting to a WiFi receiver and recorder, which could be a computer or tape or disc. My preference would be computer, since it could be accessed by those with the proper authority over the Internet.

Our neighborhood association would probably pay for the purchase, installation and maintenance of the system. Our budget is limited, and if this system could be created for under $5000 total, I'm sure we would all vote for it without a second thought. More than that would be a tough sell unless you are one of the victims.

So can anyone suggest something commercially available like this? I think we could install it and certainly maintain it ourselves, but I am at a loss as to what's available. Any and all suggestions would be appreciated.

[INRM]

Why so you can spy on your neighbors?

[Sherman Bay]

Why so you can spy on your neighbors?What a stupid response. Did you actually read my post? To reduce criminal activity, or if it happens, to bring miscreants to justice. To make our neighborhood safer. Does that sound like a bad thing?

Any system of this sort will be installed, maintained and paid for by the neighborhood association, a voluntary group that includes over 80% of the homeowners. If the majority of them don't want it, it won't be done.

If they feel that it is better to remain in ignorance about who drives down the road, so be it. When they get burgled, they can cry alone and there will be no way to see who might be responsible unless they are caught in the act or leave evidence behind. Considering the low density of residents in the winter, that's not likely. I can see parts of four houses from mine, but if someone pulled up a truck and stole all of the contents of three of them, I wouldn't be able to see it happening.

If no breakins are attempted, there will be no need to look at any of the data. Since it will be privately owned, we can secure it from public viewing.

And any images will be of public roads, not private property (unless the adjacent private property owner wants to be included and gives permission).

Are you aware that many downtown areas of large cities (London, etc.) have near-100% coverage of all streets, sidewalks and plazas already? It's not a new concept and the word on the street (heh) is that it increases security. You don't like it? Get used to it.

If I want to spy on my neighbors, all I have to do is look out the window.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I have some friends in my neighborhood who have their own security cameras trained on various exteriors of their house and the back alley, but they're mostly incapable of even getting an identifiable image of a face.

The streetlight cameras (to catch drivers running a red) are set up for that specific purpose only. To get the license plate, they really are useless for any other purpose.

I don't know all the details but I expect you can set up something that might be a bit of a deterrent (or a vandalism magnet), but it might not be feasible to get anything that would actually produce an image that would be useful in court or even to track down a burgler.

ETA: If you're after deterrence, you might save a lot of money by just setting up dummy cameras and signs advertising your surveillance system.

[Sherman Bay]

ETA: If you're after deterrence, you might save a lot of money by just setting up dummy cameras and signs advertising your surveillance system.We've considered that, but in my opinion, the truth soon becomes known and then we have accomplished nothing except provide a target for jokers.

One of us plans to experiment with a deercam-- battery powered, infr-red for night use, stores to a memory card. I understand the $300-500 versions are pretty awesome in image quality, and after all, they are designed to work outdoors in all weather and light conditions, even without flash. And they are motion-activated.

It wouldn't work as a long-term solution (too easily disabled or stolen, would require frequent battery replacement and memory card pickup), but it might give us some knowledge to be able to design something more permanent.

[Pantaz]

I recall seeing some PC-based video surveillance products not long ago. I was probably searching "video capture card" or "TV capture".

Jameco (http://www.jameco.com/) usually has a few low cost cameras available.

[INRM]

I think rigging cameras throughout a whole neighborhood is overkill.

[Ladewig]

I think rigging cameras throughout a whole neighborhood is overkill.

Your opinions will be taken more seriously if you read opening posts in their entirety.

[ben m]

We have a neighborhood watch group, stickers for windows and cars, and almost everyone knows everyone else, so that gives us an advantage. On the negative side, many homes are occupied only seasonally so break-ins may go undiscovered for a long time

That makes it kind of hard to *use* the data from a surveillance system, doesn't it? Suppose that someone shows up for the summer (winter?) after nine months away; they find a break-in and some missing valuables. You know that the perpetrator is ... well, somewhere in the middle of nine months' worth of license plate photos.

How many photos is that? Who goes through them and reads the tags?

Suppose you can rule out the residents' cars---at least that's a finite set. How many random relatives, friends, deliverymen, babysitters, etc., have driven through and been photographed? Who goes through the photos and picks out these people? "Oh, AM5 GX3? That was my aunt Millie from Knoxville."

Suppose that you can actually parse these people out of the list. How many cars are left? Dozens? Hundreds? Most of them are probably legitimate visitors that didn't parse out of the previous step; some might be sightseers, or people who made a wrong turn, or househunters, or whatever. Do the police go and knock on each of their doors? It's not like "drove down East Elm Lane in mid-2008" is probable cause for a search warrant.

So *for the special case of long-unnoticed robberies* I think that the technical camera/memory/power issues are the least of your problem. The data you collect will be non-specific and basically useless.

And privacy *is* an issue. Anyone cheating on their spouse? Lying about being away on vacation? Is your teenager taking the car out when you're asleep? Does the catering van show up, not coincidentally, the morning before each of Millie's supposedly home-cooked dinner parties? You're about to find out.

[billw]

Most low-end-consumer-level PC-based security camera and DVR systems are of insufficient quality to record things like vehicle plate numbers with any fidelity. You may also need to consider IR illumination for night operations, unless the camera will be placed in a lighted location.

[Sherman Bay]

I recall seeing some PC-based video surveillance products not long ago. I was probably searching "video capture card" or "TV capture".

Jameco (http://www.jameco.com/) usually has a few low cost cameras available.Not the level of quality or equipment we need, and doesn't meet the specs of the OP, but thanks, anyway.That makes it kind of hard to *use* the data from a surveillance system, doesn't it? Suppose that someone shows up for the summer (winter?) after nine months away; they find a break-in and some missing valuables. You know that the perpetrator is ... well, somewhere in the middle of nine months' worth of license plate photos. You're right, it makes it difficult. But in the last few years, since most people have caretakers who check the premises at least once a week, and more often if they see unexpected footprints in the snow, the time delay is likely to be hours to weeks at the most. If someone is gone for nine months without a caretaker, the damage from raccoons and falling trees will be a greater problem than humans.How many photos is that? Who goes through them and reads the tags?No one, unless there is a need for it.Suppose you can rule out the residents' cars---at least that's a finite set. How many random relatives, friends, deliverymen, babysitters, etc., have driven through and been photographed? Who goes through the photos and picks out these people? "Oh, AM5 GX3? That was my aunt Millie from Knoxville." That's been considered. We could invite residents to volunteer the plate numbers of themselves and guests. I can write a simple computer program to keep track of those, since many won't change from year to year. And the sheriff said if we email him a list of 5,000 possible license plate numbers, he will run a program to compare with arrests and other data to narrow it down. Whatever is left will probably include the culprit, and he will be getting a visit from a deputy, especially if he shows up on multiple lists.

We know that a large percentage of breakins are due to workmen who are contracted to work on a new home or a remodelling project. They show up for work for a few weeks and take notice of the homes that appear unoccupied. After their job ends, they return and break in those homes, sometimes the very same ones they worked on! How do we know this? Because a workmen's key was used and no locks jimmied or windows broken in at least two cases.

So as soon as we know of a new construction project, we can approach the builder and ask for a list of license plates of his crew and sub-contractors. All will be on notice that their comings and goings will be recorded. If he refuses, no problem...I can just walk over to the site and write down the plates myself. If a burglary happens after the job is complete and one of the plates matches the workmen's list, he will be the first to receive a visit from the sheriff.Suppose that you can actually parse these people out of the list. How many cars are left? Dozens? Hundreds? Most of them are probably legitimate visitors that didn't parse out of the previous step; some might be sightseers, or people who made a wrong turn, or househunters, or whatever. Do the police go and knock on each of their doors? It's not like "drove down East Elm Lane in mid-2008" is probable cause for a search warrant.See my previous comment.So *for the special case of long-unnoticed robberies* I think that the technical camera/memory/power issues are the least of your problem. The data you collect will be non-specific and basically useless. Don't think so, but we'll see.And privacy *is* an issue. Anyone cheating on their spouse? Lying about being away on vacation? Is your teenager taking the car out when you're asleep? Does the catering van show up, not coincidentally, the morning before each of Millie's supposedly home-cooked dinner parties? You're about to find out. As I said, the data will not be looked at unless there is a need. Court orders would have to be followed, of course. If the residents feel that the invasion of their privacy is more a concern than protection of their property, that's their choice. As for me, I'm always here, so any break in to my house will be looking not at the business end of a benign camera but a weapon with a bad attitude behind it. It's not my personal fears that are driving this project.

Think of it this way. If the system is properly designed, the perpetrator WILL be caught on camera. In the hypothetical case of Bill Brown's house being broken in to and his wine cellar emptied, I could give Bill the entire data from Date X to Date Y and let him decide which cars need a closer look. I'll bet old Bill would spend all the time it takes out of spite and desire for justice if nothing else.

And the sheriff WILL take the time necessary to narrow the suspect list. We pay one helluva lot of taxes in this county and we make our weight known. I don't anticipate a problem in this regard.

And billw, yes, night use is a concern. We have no lighted streets or intersections at the moment, but that could be rectified. Some devices I've looked at claim adequate performance in night conditions using infra-red or very sensitive cams.

Estimated number of cars that passed by my house last night from 9PM to 6AM: Three. No, I don't think data size will be the biggest problem. :)

[Pantaz]

Not the level of quality or equipment we need, and doesn't meet the specs of the OP, but thanks, anyway.

My suggestion of Jameco was just off-the-cuff. Try this: http://www.google.com/search?q=video+surveillance+card

A quick browse of FG Engineering (http://www.fgeng.com/) and I found these examples:
Wireless Transmitter and Receiver $195 (http://www.fgeng.com/video-surveillance-equipment.htm#wtxrx)
Stand-Alone DVR 4 Channel Unit $416 (http://www.fgeng.com/dvr-digital-video-recorders.htm)
Video Surveillance Cameras $98 - $220 (http://www.fgeng.com/security-cameras-and-webcams.htm)

Their Surveillance WebCam Software (http://www.fgeng.com/webcam-software.htm) has some nice features, such as motion detection, sound detection, remote viewing (via internet) of live or recorded images, supports up to 11 cameras, etc.

NOTE: I can't vouch for that company, I just browsed their site for some examples.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Again, though, if you have the cameras set to "see" a relatively wide area, they're generally pretty useless for identifying faces or license plate numbers.

If you've got a known spot where someone would stand or park (like at an ATM or the cashier window at a convenience store), it's another story. If there's a spot where a vehicle would need to park for these burglaries, a well-sited camera might be good (especially if the camera were hidden).

[ben m]

And the sheriff said if we email him a list of 5,000 possible license plate numbers, he will run a program to compare with arrests and other data to narrow it down.

OK. My confidence in your scheme has gone up dramatically.

[Chupacabras]

Pantaz beat me to it, but anyway, I was thinking of going into Radio Shack or similar. They surely have gadgets - motion detectors, wireless cameras/transmitters, etc... - that will help build something usable. However, probably the better approach is to hire individual sound alarm systems in each house connected to a central system, police or private.

HTH

[INRM]

Sherman Bay,

Well if you put the cameras at the entry and exit of the road I don't see too much of a problem... Cameras can be fitted to a motion-sensor.

Just make sure the people in the town agree with you.


INRM
Post 2,000

[Bell]

Sherman Bay, how busy is the neighborhood? I've there is a lot of traffic, you might want to consider ANPR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number_plate_recognition).

I have no idea about the costs and feasibility, though.

[INRM]

Truthfully speaking, I don't think ANPR is necessary.

INRM

[al_capone_junior]

Well if you put the cameras at the entry and exit of the road I don't see too much of a problem... Cameras can be fitted to a motion-sensor.

Just make sure the people in the town agree with you.



I agree with part II, be careful on that one.

As far as the cameras, you might consider not one on each end of the road, but several, with at least one on each end blatantly obvious, and perhaps one less obvious or hidden as well. Possibly more than one hidden with a few obvious. Best place for a hidden camera is before the first obvious camera is visible.

I'd not make dummy cameras without having working cameras as well, and I wouldn't reveal the existence of any dummy cameras to the "public."

But seriously, when you get to a stoplight that has cameras, can you actually tell if they're hooked up? Do you run the light? The deterrent value is not to be ignored.

If there are bottle necks in the schema of your neighborhood, consider putting cameras there too. From the sounds of it, there should not be too much effort in meeting your budget, but then I don't have the overhead map handy either.

Better yet, a big, loud barking dog prevents about 99% of burglaries right off the bat, without cameras. Only a fool would try to break into this house when they hear muttley going berserk just behind the door or window they're trying to open.

http://api.ning.com/files/KmN26in4O0Scsis63E7vQ5o-tdYflYHhn9Gv09jo1-L-PYG8tu9pQgb-nB4gEpTmxZ1bKzIKotX1t6do5I53MqyHekgggApN/Audrinta.dannydaveandRachel001a.jpg?width=718&height=600

al

[Sherman Bay]

Sherman Bay, how busy is the neighborhood? I've there is a lot of traffic, you might want to consider ANPR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number_plate_recognition).ANPR looks good. Cost might be the determining factor. Our neighborhood has very light traffic on a 2-lane road, no stop signs, minimal shoulder, no traffic lights, no commercial activity, 30MPH speed limit (which is probably too high) and many curves.

I like al_capone_jr's Big Barking Dog idea, although that one looks too friendly. Could we get a discount for one for each house, like 400 dogs? :)

I had an alarm system in another city. It cost me about $5K to install and I had to pay monthly for monitoring and patrol. Contrast that to my idea of a system to serve the entire community for 1/400th of that kind of cost. No, installing a system in each home isn't the cheapest way to go.

Pantaz, I haven't investigated your links yet, but I will do so, and thanks.

[al_capone_junior]

I like al_capone_jr's Big Barking Dog idea, although that one looks too friendly. Could we get a discount for one for each house, like 400 dogs? :)


He barks his ass off, which is exactly what he should do. Excellent deterrent. However, I have a 7 year old nephew and a 1 year old niece, so he's also perfect in that he is pretty friendly, and unlikely to bite small children who poke him in the eye, pull his ears or tail, etc. :D He's slightly rambunctious, but he's very well trained nonetheless.

You could just leave a herd of large dogs roaming the neighborhood loose, all the time. Nobody could leave their homes, but the burgler problem would be solved. :eek:

[Sherman Bay]

You could just leave a herd of large dogs roaming the neighborhood loose, all the time. Nobody could leave their homes, but the burgler problem would be solved. :eek:We already have herds of deer roaming around like they own the place. Maybe we should concentrate on training them as watchdeer?

Nah, they're too arrogant. And they taste good.

[INRM]

I don't think hidden cameras are even necessary. A camera at the entry and exit of the town should be sufficient.

Remember, K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid)


INRM

[roger]

Mountain lions. It'll solve roaming dog, deer, and thief problem.

[Sherman Bay]

Mountain lions. It'll solve roaming dog, deer, and thief problem.And roaming children, the scourge of our neighborhood.

Just thought I'd pop in here and tell a bit about the progress in catching our latest round of thievery. It goes to show how important license numbers can be, not to mention observant neighbors.

It seems that 3 guys, two of late high school age and one older, get together after school. The older one drives the car and drops off the other two at the driveway of a goodlooking house. The two walk in, break in to one or more houses in a row, remove TVs and liquor, wait for the car to return, then load up and leave. Since there's no suspicious car parked near the house for a while, they think they can escape notice.

To show how stupid they are, they liked the pickings so much they did it again. In the same neighborhood. A neighbor saw a strange car a few days ago and wrote down the license number. It was garbled enough that that wasn't too useful, but yesterday, another neighbor heard someone's audible alarm and called the sheriff. As the deputy drove in, he saw a car matching the original description with a license plate similar to the one recorded. He stopped the car and questioned the driver. None of the driver's responses sounded right ("I'm just killing time, waiting for my friends to get out of school."), so they took the guy to HQ, and used the rubber hose on him (just kidding). But he confessed to 3 burglaries on this road.

The cops have blood samples from other burglaries and he gave the names of his 2 accomplices, so we may be on the way to solving this rash of crimes.

Sure are stupid burglars. They live in the same county, they left DNA samples behind and probably fingerprints, they showed up frequently in the same neighborhood where they stand out (don't ask) and they repeated their procedure within a few days or weeks of each time. Even the guy driving around and around killing time is likely to be noticed; this is not a teenage cruising neighborhood by any means.

[al_capone_junior]

We already have herds of deer roaming around like they own the place. Maybe we should concentrate on training them as watchdeer?

Nah, they're too arrogant. And they taste good.

Shock! Horror! Call PETA!!!!!!!

(People who Eat Tasty Animals) :D

Just got some good deer meat from a neighbor's hunting trip, now where's my recipe for blackened rare tenderloin medallions.... :eye-poppi

[INRM]

Well if they caught the guy, there's no longer need for a camera system.

[Sherman Bay]

Well if they caught the guy, there's no longer need for a camera system.Of course. All criminal activity has now ceased, and we can fire the sheriff, disband the cops, and turn off our alarm systems.

[MRC_Hans]

Well if they caught the guy, there's no longer need for a camera system.

Sorry, but hardly. These guys made a handful of burglaries. We are talking about a 400 home neighborhood; half a dozen burglaries wouldn't get them to the 'something must be done' stage. There are more perpetrators.

I was thinking about another type of cameras, however, possibly as a supplement: Nowadays, reasonably good digital still cameras are quite cheap. Station one in each house (get a type that can use AA or AAA batteries, so charging is not an issue), and ask people to take a snap of anything suspicious. .... Next burglar will find himself on a dozen pictures :p.


Hans

[Sherman Bay]

Looking thru the list of links Pantaz supplied, on diagram 10, 11, or 12, (http://www.fgeng.com/installation-video-surveillance-systems.htm#diagramindex) this might work if I modify my initial design slightly.

I had originally envisioned all camera images sent to a central location where they would be stored long-term. But this entails video transmission over some distance or over the Internet and hooking the cams directly into the Internet might be a problem, since they will be mounted near the road but from 100-500 ft from any house.

But if I use the design where the cam is hard-wired to the nearest house (under 500 ft) -- also where it gets its power -- and the house is where the PC, processing software (motion sensing) and storage is kept, that removes the need for the tricky video transmission over distance.

And this system allows for access and control of the storage PC remotely thru the Internet, so we could have more than one of those setups, each in a different place on the road. As long as any authorized person could access the data when needed over the Internet, it really doesn't matter where it is physically stored or at how many places.

And my guess is that automatic license plate OCR software would be expensive (bleeding edge technology), but if the images stored were high enough resolution and adequately lit, we could use Photoshop-type software to extract license plates as long as there weren't too many to do at once.

The designs at that company look affordable. They are priced as packages exclusive of the PC and hard drive, so I can add that in to get a reasonable total.

[INRM]

Just be careful with the intrusiveness of the camera system...

People should have a right to privacy -- the criminal should be caught without having to trample over innocent people's rights.

I think placing cameras at the entry and exit of each town would be sufficient

[Sherman Bay]

I think placing cameras at the entry and exit of each town would be sufficient

So do I. From the OP:So we could have 2 cameras, one at each end, and anyone entering or leaving would be caught on camera.

[cwalner]

Sherman,

I know you are looking for a low cost do-it-yourself version, but you should look into having something like this professionally done. I work for one of the largest home security companies in the US (I will refrain from names to avoid advertising issues). I know that this is something we can provide and already do for many HOA's throughout the country.

On the plus side, this will be installed and maintained professionally and installation costs will likely be fairly low. On the negative side, we make our $ by selling service contracts, so you will most likely have to agree to a minimum 5-year maintanence contract for the equipment, and this may turn out to be more of a long term financial commitment than the HOA is willing to make.

Some other advantages: having this provided by a professional, neutral 3rd party may relieve some privacy concerns of some HOA members. Rather than paying up front, you will pay a monthly fee, which may make this more financially feasable than buying your own equipment. Often times we make bulk deals, if the HOA members switch to us for monitoring home alarms as well.

(These advantages and disadvantages would be true even if you used one of our competitors, I have only described SOP for the home security industry.)

If you want to look into this option, PM me with your city and state, and I will forward back the contact info for our local service office.

[skeptigirl]

Not sure how you could read license plates but I put a video camera in my window to see which neighbor's dog thought my yard was its potty every morning and successfully caught the culprit. My neighbor thought the dog was going in the woods when she shoved him out the door every morning but the dog went to the front yard, not the back.

Anyway, I just ran an 8 hr VCR tape and screened it on fast fwd every night. I used the same tape over and over. VCR tapes are real cheap. You could collect them with time and dates and go back to the time of a burglary if one occurred.

OR, you could just put a great big sign up saying, "Warning, videotaping in progress", and a fake camera on the light pole. My camera is still in the window but the tape isn't running. Dogs rarely do their biz in the yard now, unless they are unattached to an owner.

[Prometheus]

Sherman,

I know you are looking for a low cost do-it-yourself version, but you should look into having something like this professionally done. I work for one of the largest home security companies in the US (I will refrain from names to avoid advertising issues). I know that this is something we can provide and already do for many HOA's throughout the country.

On the plus side, this will be installed and maintained professionally and installation costs will likely be fairly low. On the negative side, we make our $ by selling service contracts, so you will most likely have to agree to a minimum 5-year maintanence contract for the equipment, and this may turn out to be more of a long term financial commitment than the HOA is willing to make.

Some other advantages: having this provided by a professional, neutral 3rd party may relieve some privacy concerns of some HOA members. Rather than paying up front, you will pay a monthly fee, which may make this more financially feasable than buying your own equipment. Often times we make bulk deals, if the HOA members switch to us for monitoring home alarms as well.

(These advantages and disadvantages would be true even if you used one of our competitors, I have only described SOP for the home security industry.)

If you want to look into this option, PM me with your city and state, and I will forward back the contact info for our local service office.

What he said, plus you might be able to alleviate any homeowners' qualms about cost by suggesting they check with their insurance agents about what kind of discounts might apply if such a system is installed in the neighborhood.

[Sherman Bay]

cwalner, I'll PM you shortly.

I think we are looking for a semi-professional setup, somewhere between DIY and full-pro. I hesitate to ask what an all-pro system would cost, so it's probably too much.

I don't plan on climbing poles and stringing outdoor 120VAC wiring; for that we would hire a local electrician. But I'm perfectly capable of building a computer, installing, running or even writing a computer program, and troubleshooting anything that comes along. (I also work in the audio/video broadcast field and build/run everything I need myself from stock components.) So I just can't see the use of a service contract. If the system breaks, I'll fix it. If it doesn't, we won't pay anything.

I'm aware that there can be advantages to using a professional service, but my multi-decades experience with computer-based systems of many kinds is they are often based on obsolete hardware sold for outrageous prices and they get by with it since people don't really know the field. Example: a sampling of video surveillance packages shows hard drives in the 200-300GB range, something that I didn't even know was still available. I am building multi-terrabyte systems for personal use and they cost much less.

Still, I'm not against investigating what there is available. I don't want to overlook anything, and I appreciate your advice.

Prometheus, that's something I hadn't thought of -- insurance discounts. I check into that.

Skeptigirl, I'm not sure our criminals can read, unlike your dogs.

[skeptigirl]

Skeptigirl,[/b] I'm not sure our criminals can read, unlike your dogs.The dogs don't read, but the owners know what a camera in a window looks like. :)