Psychic actually answering doubts...

[chillzero]

Colin Fry is a tv psychic in the uk, hosting a show called the Sixth Sense.
Now, I have often complained about entried being removed from this site that raise any doubt about his abilities, or those of John Edwards on the same channel, but amazingly, someone posted a thread calling him a fake, and he has decided to answer it rather than remove it...

http://www.livingtv.co.uk/ubb/Forum19/HTML/001442.html

very interesting.

He has also agreed to be online in the New Year, answering any questions from anyone (so long as there is no abuse). Might be interesting to follow too.
http://www.livingtv.co.uk/ubb/Forum19/HTML/001443.html

[chillzero]

Original article calling him fake
http://members.lycos.co.uk/colinfry/index.html

a Spiritualist newspaper, no less.

[Thumbo]

Originally posted by cabby
Original article calling him fake
http://members.lycos.co.uk/colinfry/index.html


Check out the statement linked from the above: http://members.lycos.co.uk/colinfry/colinfry.htm

The short "statement supporting the demonstrator" includes some gems. My favourite:

"...now needs time to strengthen his mediumship within the confines of his home circle..."

[Dogwood]

Fascinating stuff cabby. Thanks for the links. Not much detail on the actual "enlightening" process though. Who turned on the lights? Who witnessed it? Who's making this claim?

[ImpyTimpy]

Call me a cynic in this instance but I seriously doubt in the claims of these "materialisation mediums". I find it laughable that all phenomena need to happen in absolute darkness. At the same time though there are reports of a floating trumpet or supposedly entire people materialising out of ectoplasm. How exactly are THESE things OBSERVED if the seance is in ABSOLUTE darkness?
Let's not forget about those 'ghostly' hands touching people... Just what makes it so ghostly in the first place?

Please, this is such a pathetic hoax I am very surprised that people still flock to it.

[LW]

Originally posted by ImpyTimpy
How exactly are THESE things OBSERVED if the seance is in ABSOLUTE darkness?
Luminous paint. Next question?

Let's not forget about those 'ghostly' hands touching people... Just what makes it so ghostly in the first place?
Filling a glove with ice. If a damp and cold hand is not ghostly in total darkness, then nothing is.

[kittynh]

Lamar Keene has his interesting book, "ThePsychic Mafia". He talks about how most of these guys and gals have a bad end...I get a little nervous about John Edwards, but I have my hopes that anyone that much of a sociopath will meet a "bad end"

[ImpyTimpy]

Thanks for answering. If luminous paint is used, then there is a source of 'light' in the room, yet these mediums claim ANY source of light will disrupt the ectoplasm. Why is luminous paint ok to use and say not nightvision goggles?

Originally posted by LW

Luminous paint. Next question?


Filling a glove with ice. If a damp and cold hand is not ghostly in total darkness, then nothing is.

[Pyrts]

There's a standard set of tricks that fraudulent mediums use -- I've seen a tv show on them. The floating trumpet is a classic; the "tied down" medium simply lifts up the chair arms (which AREN'T fastened down) and lifts the trumpet with his own hands.

Voila.

Their shoes are designed so their feet easily slip in and out of the shoes so that they can manipulate things (including a magnet, which can slide things around on the table).

Here's a wonderful article about an expose that Houdini did which explains how a lot of the tricks are done:

http://www.cicap.org/en_artic/at101010.htm

[kittynh]

Lamar Keene in his book explains that the trumpet actually is expandable. So you can be sitting in your chair and expand the trumpet to up to 4 feet! He also had a trick so that someone could hold the trumpet in their hands and could feel the vibrations of the trumpet as the voices spoke....pretty boring when it was all explained.

[chillzero]

Well, my, my, my - I must retract this forum - Colin has withdrawn his offer - because- wait for it - it's a goodun -

the forum moderators are concerned that the servers will all crash because of the amount of interest in this posting.

uh huh :rolleyes:

http://www.livingtv.co.uk/ubb/Forum19/HTML/001454.html

[ImpyTimpy]

Guess he couldn't handle the heat...

Originally posted by cabby
Well, my, my, my - I must retract this forum - Colin has withdrawn his offer - because- wait for it - it's a goodun -

the forum moderators are concerned that the servers will all crash because of the amount of interest in this posting.

uh huh :rolleyes:

http://www.livingtv.co.uk/ubb/Forum19/HTML/001454.html

[mindless]

He really thinks he has that many fans, talk about a big ego.

[dharlow]

With regard to physical mediums, I recommend Tony Cornell's "Investigating the Paranormal" if you have the time, and the money (rather expensive). He details some sittings he had with materialisation mediums, including one (Rita Gould) who had garnered quite a high reputation among some psychical researchers.

It seems to me that psychics have no problem with sceptics as long as they don't ask any awkward questions. Colin Fry does not like anyone that has a "bee in their bonnet", yet at school he said he had a most enquiring mind, and was always asking questions. By the way, there is going to be a program on mediums on BBC in February in the Everyman series, including Colin Fry, Gordon Smith and Robert Brown.

Another strange thing. See Psychic News Jan 4th 2003:-

David Thompson who by coincidence lives in Haywards Heath, the same place as Colin Fry, travelled up to a seance 5 hours' drive away with his wife.

Mr Thompson carefully showed the people present the self-locking cable ties which he insisted on using.

His wife fastened him securely to the wooden chair arms also. When it was all blacked out, the seance began. After 10 mins, there were physical manifestations, direct voice, and materialised forms walking among them. Trumpets flew, men, women and children walked amongst them.

I leave out a lot for convenience here, but "at the conclusion of our memorable seance, when the lights had been switched on again, we were to discover that the medium's cardigan, which prior to the seance had been fastened through the button holes with cable ties, had been reversed so that its front was at David's back, and its back was at his front. All other cable ties were as before - none had been disturbed, and they had to be cut with wire cutters in order to release him".

Can a scientist explain this to me please? Very interesting.

[Nova Land]

Originally posted by Pyrts
There's a standard set of tricks that fraudulent mediums use -- I've seen a tv show on them.Comic books prior to the mid-1960s also used to be a good source of stories exposing "psychic" tricks.

Superman, for example, used to have fewer stories about supervillains and more stories about real-word evils (slumlords, exploitative capitalists, tabloid reporters, and various scam artists). A common story would have Clark Kent being invited to a phony seance and using his superpowers to see how the medium was really doing the stunts (which the reader then got to see too). Superman then either surreptitiously exposed the stunts, or (more commonly) put on a hoax that convinced the medium there really was something supernatural and got the medium to bring out all the money the fake had scammed to invest in Superman's scam, which Superman would then give back to all the phony's victims.

There were also various series, such as Dr. 13 the Ghost-Breaker (who specialized in de-bunking claims of the paranormal), and Roy Raymond (whose TV show "Strange But True" investigated strange claims, which generally turned out to be hoaxes although some were hoaxes where something was pretending to be a ghost and it turned out actually to be a space alien...).

What led to these stories becoming far less common is the rise of Marvel Comics in the 1960s, with the idea of a single universe with a consistent continuity in which all the characters lived.

Previously, comic characters lived in an odd multi-reality in which, in one story, Batman might team up with Superman (since they lived in the same reality) and in the very next Batman would be helpless against an alien invasion (since there was no Superman in Batman's reality.) This allowed a great variety of stories -- in one Batman could solve a seemingly supernatural crime, explaining to Robin that it had to be a trick because there are no such things as ghosts, and in another Batman and Robin could or defeat a curse or fight villains with supernatural powers.

Once the idea of a unified continuity, with each story having to fit in, became common, then either ghosts and magic and psychics existed or they didn't -- and once a story was published in which these things were real, it became hard to do ones in which they weren't. (Dr. 13 was re-defined, for example, as an example of someone determined to expose the supernatural as a fake despite the massive evidence all around him that it was real.)

I mention all this not simply to reminisce about comics (although that's fun too) but for a better reason. Comics once were, and could potentially be again, a resource in educating against superstition and scams.

Decades ago, a comic needed to have circulation in the hundreds of thousands to continue publishing (and some had sales of over a million copies per issue). Today a comic that sells 50,000 copies is doing well, and many comics are published with circulation of under 5,000.

Comic book writers and editors have long been known for being very interested in readers' opinions, and for being responsive to readers' concerns. If more skeptics bought, read, and wrote letters of comment to comics, there is a good chance of influencing the kinds of stories that appear there -- much better, I believe, than one's chance of affecting tv shows, movies, or other media.

If we lefties could use these techniques to take over comics and get more more blacks, more Asians, more women, more gays, and more socially-concerned heroes introduced (to the point that some conservatives wail about comics being part of the left-wing conspiracy), there is every chance that skeptics can do the same.

[xouper]

Muddy: Mr Thompson carefully showed the people present the self-locking cable ties which he insisted on using. ... His wife fastened him securely to the wooden chair arms also. When it was all blacked out, the seance began. ... Can a scientist explain this to me please?Magician Ian Rowland has demonstrated on TV how this is done. The ends of the arms of the chair are not securely connected to the posts as most people would assume. David can simply raise the arm up off the post, slip the cable ties off the ends of the arms and proceed to do all manner of things with his free hands. And then when the show is near the end, he slips the cable ties back over the ends of the chair arms and reconnects the arms to the posts, giving the impression that his hands were securely fastened to the chair the whole time, when if fact they were not, even though the cable ties were never broken.

[Druid]

Originally posted by cabby
Colin Fry is a tv psychic in the uk, hosting a show called the Sixth Sense.
Now, I have often complained about entried being removed from this site that raise any doubt about his abilities, or those of John Edwards on the same channel, but amazingly, someone posted a thread calling him a fake, and he has decided to answer it rather than remove it...

http://www.livingtv.co.uk/ubb/Forum19/HTML/001442.html

very interesting.

He has also agreed to be online in the New Year, answering any questions from anyone (so long as there is no abuse). Might be interesting to follow too.
http://www.livingtv.co.uk/ubb/Forum19/HTML/001443.html


Hi Cabby,

I use the livingTv forums quite regularly and have had lots of posts removed.
The forum is a joke as they now seem to only allow those who support Mr Fry to have their say.
Over the last few days I have had at least 10 posts removed because they question Colin Fry or his supporters.
Whatever happened to free speech??
I am completely disgusted with the attempts Colin Fry and Livingtv have gone to to cover up the truth including removing my posts, changing the contents of threads I have started and in the case of a user called Velmwend actually barring him from posting because he pointed out the similiarites between Colin Frys posts and that of one of his supporters called Wanda Witch.

To anyone thinking of going to this forum I can only say Dont waste your time.

Regards,
Druid.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Pyrts
There's a standard set of tricks that fraudulent mediums use[/url]

Isn't this a rather redundant statement? All mediums are fraudulent.

[Voob]

I'm always amazed by the rationalizations people use to support their beliefs even when presented with proof of fraud.

Somebody switches the lights on during a seance. The "medium" who had been tied up is caught red-handed standing there swinging a trumpet around.

The medium claims to have been possessed by a bad spirit which caused him to do this and people believe it.

As the restraints are "scientifically" tested to see how the spirit could have broken them, the medium's group announces that it will take more precautions in the future to protect the medium from this sort of thing happening.

Don't the believers realize how utterly stupid they look?

Stupid and lazy. Stupid for needing to be suckered, and lazy for not taking ten minutes to find out for themselves how common and easily explained these parlour tricks are.

What century is this?

Idiots....

[ImpyTimpy]

I'd say the gullibility begins the second the lights are turned off, so the whole seance happens in "absolute" darkness....

I guess the spirits are just shy.

Originally posted by Voob
I'm always amazed by the rationalizations people use to support their beliefs even when presented with proof of fraud.

Somebody switches the lights on during a seance. The "medium" who had been tied up is caught red-handed standing there swinging a trumpet around.

The medium claims to have been possessed by a bad spirit which caused him to do this and people believe it.

As the restraints are "scientifically" tested to see how the spirit could have broken them, the medium's group announces that it will take more precautions in the future to protect the medium from this sort of thing happening.

Don't the believers realize how utterly stupid they look?

Stupid and lazy. Stupid for needing to be suckered, and lazy for not taking ten minutes to find out for themselves how common and easily explained these parlour tricks are.

What century is this?

Idiots....

[chillzero]

I found a reason why these have to be done in darkness. ~It was posted by someone having a go at Druid, actually.

The introduction of light is what caused the demise of many physical mediums of the past, when because of ectoplasm rushing back into their bodies too quickly caused internal bleeding. Helen Duncan died within two weeks from the injuries she received when police, who were trying to discredit her mediumship, grabbed hold of the ectoplasm as it rushed back into her body.

So there you go.
;)

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Muddy
Another strange thing. See Psychic News Jan 4th 2003:-

David Thompson who by coincidence lives in Haywards Heath, the same place as Colin Fry, travelled up to a seance 5 hours' drive away with his wife.

Mr Thompson carefully showed the people present the self-locking cable ties which he insisted on using.

His wife fastened him securely to the wooden chair arms also. When it was all blacked out, the seance began. After 10 mins, there were physical manifestations, direct voice, and materialised forms walking among them. Trumpets flew, men, women and children walked amongst them.

I leave out a lot for convenience here, but "at the conclusion of our memorable seance, when the lights had been switched on again, we were to discover that the medium's cardigan, which prior to the seance had been fastened through the button holes with cable ties, had been reversed so that its front was at David's back, and its back was at his front. All other cable ties were as before - none had been disturbed, and they had to be cut with wire cutters in order to release him".

Can a scientist explain this to me please? Very interesting.

These are the some of the same stunts that were popular with mediums of the early 1900's. Houdini exposed many of them and explained their tricks. The most simple is that when the lights go down, assitants show up and do things blow horns, touch people, flash lights, etc.

This bozo is obiviously using very old tricks so that he will not have to tax his little mind by coming up with new ones.

What a bore!

[ntech]

Originally posted by cabby
Colin Fry is a tv psychic in the uk, hosting a show called the Sixth Sense.
Now, I have often complained about entried being removed from this site that raise any doubt about his abilities, or those of John Edwards on the same channel, but amazingly, someone posted a thread calling him a fake, and he has decided to answer it rather than remove it...

http://www.livingtv.co.uk/ubb/Forum19/HTML/001442.html

very interesting.

He has also agreed to be online in the New Year, answering any questions from anyone (so long as there is no abuse). Might be interesting to follow too.
http://www.livingtv.co.uk/ubb/Forum19/HTML/001443.html



I quess that makes him a bold faker!

[Druid]

Originally posted by cabby
Colin Fry is a tv psychic in the uk, hosting a show called the Sixth Sense.
Now, I have often complained about entried being removed from this site that raise any doubt about his abilities, or those of John Edwards on the same channel, but amazingly, someone posted a thread calling him a fake, and he has decided to answer it rather than remove it...

http://www.livingtv.co.uk/ubb/Forum19/HTML/001442.html

very interesting.

He has also agreed to be online in the New Year, answering any questions from anyone (so long as there is no abuse). Might be interesting to follow too.
http://www.livingtv.co.uk/ubb/Forum19/HTML/001443.html


Colin stated that this incident was investigated and he was cleared of any fraud so i asked him some pretty basic questions about it.

Here are the questions followed by his comments (unedited)

Who conducted the investigation??
What was the conclusion?
Are the findings of the investigation available to anyone??
You say you will go into it in more depth in your autobiography.. is this because revealing the truth now may damage sales of your book and/or ruin your credibility as a TV medium.
Isn't 'spirit possession' an easy way out when your caught red-handed??
Is this the reason you refuse to be tested by scientists??
What were you doing with an Illuminous trumpet in the first place?

Dear David

I will try to answer you questions in order .
I would be pleased if you would keep my replies to you private as at preseent I can not reply to any come back on the living forum as I will not enter till the hacker has been caught -thanks for the advice about protection but I have already attended to that .



it was at my at my request and on the advice of the the then committe of the Noahs ark society ,an investigation was conducted by Mr Hilton Thompson
there where a number of perculiarities to this incident which I should tell you before we discuss the investigation and its conclusions.
On the day of the experimental seance I had been developing physical mediumship in a closed circle for about two years ,there where many at the time including myself who felt that it was really to early in the development of this form of mediumship to be allowing so many outside sitters to be sitting -however at the time there was quiet a lot of pressure placed on me as I was one of only two mediums allowing outsiders to attend seances .
anyway on the particular day I had felt since early morning that the seance should not procceed ,but as there was approx 30 people attending who had all travelled long distances I felt obliged to continue (should have trusted my feelings!)
once the seance had began and I had reluctantly allowed the trance state to come over me several of the regular sitters including my 68 year old circle leader felt that all was not right as the seance was not following a normal course of events with the phenomena being crude and aggressive .
the lights had been extinguished at the beggining of the seance and the light switches had been boxed over and secured with 'duck tape ' ,approx 20 min in to the seance all the main lighting came on , to reveal me standing in the middle of the room in what was described as a dazed state ,now we get into the area of what those attending claim they saw a) some report a dark mass wipping back into the seance cabinet and myself being thrown to the floor screaming in pain b) others report that I fell to the floor and no dark mass was seen but the seance trumpet was not initially in my hand but fell from mid air into my outstrtched arms! c) others say I was not even standing on the ground but was suspended approx 12" of the ground .therfore I must conclude that the views of the witnessess is unreliable or at best subjective

As at the time I was said to be in great distress and in considrable pain with bruising and burn marks to the solar plexus I was escorted from the room to recover .
several attending checked the cabinet area where I had been secured to a windsor style chair using 300llb breaking strain cable ties to the amazement of everyone these where lying on the floor broken , but not at the obviouse point of the conections
these where gathered togethere and sealed in a plastic bag which was secured and signed over by two people .
the investigator was asked to specifically look into two points 1) how could the lights come on when they where boxed over with and duck take that had not been tampered with 2) how where the cable ties broken when stronger men than I where asked to break them and found it impossibile .

the question to the lights I must come to later .
the cable ties where taken to a university (believe it was duraham ) and analised under electo Microscope -the analsis had them baffelled -apparently polymer (plastic) if cut or snapped under normal circumstances will stretch -there where no signs of stretching -they further concluded that the only way they could recreate these breaks was to either freeze them in dry ice (which they concluded had not been done with the ones from the seance ) or hold them tight in a vice and at great speed drop a weighted pendulum blade on them which avoided the stretching - when the point was put to them had this methord been used what would have happened as was the case with them tight around a persons wrists and ankles at the time the reponse was that it would have with out doubt have cut of the persons hands and feet !
Further to this investigation the committee of the NAS and several scientists asked me to conduct a test seance which was conducted a week later the purpose of this seance was to try to ascertain from my spirit controls why this had happened and why they had not stopped it .

The answer they recieved was that in fact they had tried to impress on me not to procceed with the seance which of course I had , realising that matters had developed beyond there control it had in fact been them that had thrown the lights(worth noting the lights where revealed to still be in the off positon once the boxing had been removed) on even though this risked my well being and of course would expose me to the inevitable accusations of fraud , this decision I have long accepted to be the right one for them to have taken .

further to this my main control announced that the culprit of this mischief a distressed soul called danny was to be allowed to come through again but under control to give account of himself ,it transpired that this poor unfourtunate was goaded into this action by what he called the voices in the dark place , he then proccedded to be extremly abusive to all present expressing his hatred for them and me , as there where several very experianced spiritualists present this poor soul was persuaded to allow himself to be guided to a place of peace .

The summary of the findings where published in Psychic news but the full report was only made availibile to the members of the Noahs ark society on request as this had been an experimental seance organised for members only.

It was on my insistance that Psychic news was keept informed and that the whole subject was not hushed up (not that the NAS had any intention of doing so ).

Although at the time Mr Hilton Thompson was the technical advisor of the NAS his directive in this investigation was to assertain facts even if this was unfavourable to me (with my full support).

The conclusion has to be that a) there is no provable scientific reason why the lights came on b) the breakage of the cable ties was unexplainable by scientific analisis.

From a personal point I have never avoided talking about this subject and have done so on many occassions publicly even using it in lectures as a warning not to push the development of your mediumship to fast .
I have since this incident conducted thousands of seances all over the world often in the presence of men of science ,who I still maintain are often the worst people to set themselves up as investigators .

There is no great mystery as to why I prefer to use this incident for my autobigraphy -after all is that not the point of an autobigraphy to tell the story of your life -I can assure you it will certainly not be a sanitised version of my life -I intend it to be a warts and all account .

To be constantly under suspision as a fraud comes with the terriotry of being a medium or psychic -I will not be the first to be accused or the last -but I know I am at heart and honest man -I can answer to my conscience and my God , I have never claimed that the incident at the seance was a case of possession more a case of some frightend confused and angry soul lashing out - so accusse me of what you will my conscience is clear I have never knowingly been fraudulant .

The reason I have no intrest in scientific investigation is that its all been done before -I am not going to be a part of scientists fence sitting and wrangle -the SPR has existed for over a hundred years and acheived nothing ,other than question the morals sanity and honesty of Mediums and investigators alike .

More than this they want quick results but are not prepared to sit for what might take years to achieve only ending up with a botched and flawed findings -recent examples 'the scole report ' and the findings of Prof Gary swartz .
they walk away its the mediums who suffer the indiganaty of charater assasination .

As for the illlumious trumpet -its standard equipment in a physical seance where trumpet phenomena is anticipated .


As for my credibility -do you not think I was aware that although there would be praise there would be equal amounts of cynisism sceptisism and outright hostility .
If I was to be truley bothered by this I would have stayed out of the limelight and contiuned to pursue a very successful career in management , but sometimes you just have to have the courage to face the flack for the sake of the people who do believe or want to believe ..

I am lead to belive you also asked about the Axminster incident - I refuse to go back there on the basis that the whole accusation was leveled by a very bitter woman who where aggreaved becouse the centre would not promote her husbands claims to possess physical mediumship ,she caused great upset amongst those who attended a number of seances I had conducted there , which had bought forth remarkable evidence of the survival of the inviduals who made themselves known to the satisfaction of all who attended till she arrived on the scene -this woman only betrays her ignorance when she claims that the tangable spirit forms had mass and weight -A fact which has been scientifically shown many times . there where a number of complaints made about this woman by people who attended these seances but the committtee of the centre refused to take action against her ,I therefore decided I would not return .

I also understand that someone has been asking for tapes of the unedited sixth sense be submitted to 'experts' in cold reading ! who decided they where experts !
my feeling is they will find exactly what they have set themselves up to be self proclaimed experts in -becouse that is there agenda - from my view a pointless exersise only bound to fuel another pointless argument of "yes he does no he does not ".

In conclusion I do not conduct any public seances at all anymore but still occassionally conduct private seances for regular sitters and there reccomended freinds only, also for the Noahs ark society members about three times a year and my students at the college in sweden where I am the principle. the increasing risk of aggitators and those who had made it known they intended me harm made the risk of more public seances impossible ,and ultimatly I have a family and partner to consider who had asked me not to continue to place myself at risk in this way,the final straw was in 2001 when death threats where made against me by born again christians .

I ask you once again to respect this is a private coorespoundance and not to make my respounce to you publicly known ,once I am able to return to the forum and other chat area,s I will be more than happy to talk about these and any other issues.

regards
Colin Fry

p.s sorry about the spelling but I am dyslexic

Your thoughts?

[chillzero]

"Further to this investigation the committee of the NAS and several scientists asked me to conduct a test seance which was conducted a week later the purpose of this seance was to try to ascertain from my spirit controls why this had happened and why they had not stopped it ."

Scientists wanted to speak to his spirit guide- yeah, sure.

"I have since this incident conducted thousands of seances all over the world often in the presence of men of science ,who I still maintain are often the worst people to set themselves up as investigators."

eh???

Should also advise that although this old letter requests privacy, I believe this agreement was altered between Druid and Colin Fry in discusssion on the Living TV Forum, but then Colin backed out of the exchange.

[scepticuk2]

If you would like to know a little more about Colin Fry please take a look at my website. I am looking for the other Spiritualist articles about Fry- does anyone have them?

Regards

Paul

http://members.lycos.co.uk/colinfry/

[hgc]

What a great story from Colin. Talk about turning lemons into lemonade! But with a willing enough audience, you could give them p!ss and tell them it's a sweet drink.

[billydkid]

Originally posted by kittynh
Lamar Keene has his interesting book, "ThePsychic Mafia". He talks about how most of these guys and gals have a bad end...I get a little nervous about John Edwards, but I have my hopes that anyone that much of a sociopath will meet a "bad end"

You and me both Kit.

[SteveGrenard]

David Thompson who by coincidence lives in Haywards Heath, the same place as Colin Fry, travelled up to a seance 5 hours' drive away with his wife.


Its no coincidence. Thomspon and Fry work together. I scheduled a seance for a family member with Fry at Hayward's Heath, less than an hrs drive from Brighton. They both use the same venue there. There were about two dozen people present but Frye didn' show up and Thompson took his place. I later spoke to a radio talk show host in Australia since Thompson was going there to perform. I told him to look out if certain spirits would appearas they did in the UK. . Well these same spirits showed up in Australia as well.

Fry's excuse: he was too busy taping a TV show.

[showme2]

Yeah, well ... given the choice of recording a tv show or dealing with incorrigible cynics like yourself ... what would YOU do ?

[Psiload]

Originally posted by showme2
Yeah, well ... given the choice of recording a tv show or dealing with incorrigible cynics like yourself ... what would YOU do ?

Simple choice... If I were a fraud like Colin, I'd go for the shameless self-promotion, rather than risk letting an incorrigible cynic anywhere near a light switch while I was holding a trumpet in the pitch dark.

[Small Town Jesus]

"What were you doing with an Illuminous trumpet in the first place?" - Good question from Druid

Mr Fry's reply:- "As for the illlumious trumpet -its standard equipment in a physical seance where trumpet phenomena is anticipated."

:D Best laugh I've had all day! :D

STJ

[Stumpy]

Colin has addressed the reasons for not allowing his physcical mediumship seances to be filmed. Colin Fry is vice president of "The Noah's Ark Society"

"The Noahs Ark society" does not cooperate with any organisation that wishes to film seances ,it has long been the policy of the society that indvidual members are free to undertake what ever reasearch they wish with whom ever they wish but as a society we are of the belief that physical phenomena and mediumship should be witnessed as a personal experiance or more importantly developed yourself in the confines of a closed home circle over many years ultimatly to be offered as a service to sincere seekers . And only in this manner can a conviction of spirit communication take place .
I find it particulary annoying that the organisation who has irritated me so much have taken it open themselves to place the sharpe refusal from the NAS webmaster on their website but do not deem it neccassary to put the rude and agressive corespoundance from them that provoked such a sharpe refusal !
The NAS is open to applications for membership from all interested members of the public and due consideration is given to all membership applications by the society committee based on the merits of the indviduals applying and their commitment and sincere interest in physical mediumship its history ,preservation and development.
Colin

Source:http://www.livingtv.co.uk/ubb/Forum19/HTML/004963.html (http://)

regards

Stumpy

[showme2]

Small Town Jesus

It's a luminous trumpet actually (i.e. one that glows in the dark), not an "illuminous" one ! But never mind .....

[showme2]

Hiya Stumpy ! .... fancy meeting you here.

I'm still waiting for your reply to my challenge on the 6ixth Sense forum to provide me with all of the griff on my paternal grandfather if I just give you my credit card details ....

[showme2]

Psiload

OK, humourous smartass comments apart (and I can appreciate humour and wit as well as anyone else) how do you account for the fact that the lights came on despite the fact that the switch was blanked off with a box and Gaffer Tape and that, when these were removed, the light switch was still in the OFF position ?

You sceptics are the ones who want to explain everything scientifically, so explain that away scientifically .....

[SteveGrenard]

The nameless organization Fry refers to in his diatribe against scientific investigation and filming of seances of physical meidumship, FYI, is the Society of Psychial Research and primarily Montague Keen.

The SPR was, indeed, kind enough to include a link to the NAS on its link page in spite of the NAS and Fry's refusal to cooperate in any scientific investigation of physical mediumship and that especially includes audio-videotaping using infra red illumination.

[teddygrahams]

Originally posted by showme2
Psiload

OK, humourous smartass comments apart (and I can appreciate humour and wit as well as anyone else) how do you account for the fact that the lights came on despite the fact that the switch was blanked off with a box and Gaffer Tape and that, when these were removed, the light switch was still in the OFF position ?

You sceptics are the ones who want to explain everything scientifically, so explain that away scientifically .....

Duuuhh .... 3-way switch ?

[DangerousBeliefs]

Originally posted by showme2
Psiload

OK, humourous smartass comments apart (and I can appreciate humour and wit as well as anyone else) how do you account for the fact that the lights came on despite the fact that the switch was blanked off with a box and Gaffer Tape and that, when these were removed, the light switch was still in the OFF position ?

You sceptics are the ones who want to explain everything scientifically, so explain that away scientifically .....

That's easy.

The room was rigged - pure and simple.

Ask the medium to meet in a neutral space which hasn't been *ahem* setup by him/her and you will be met with all kinds of excuses.

Same goes for filming them.

Same goes for why they must be in absolute darkness.

It's all to hide the tricks.

"Ignore the little man behind the curtain Dorothy".

[showme2]

Teddygrahams

Don't be silly!

Why, if the results of the seance had been "fixed" by the people who actually CONTROLLED the electrical circuitry of the venue, would they choose to hit the lights at a time when it would cause maximum embarrassment for the medium ?

The argument of most sceptics is at least rational !

[De_Bunk]

Druid...

I liked the bit where the trumpet just "fell into his arms"...

I reckon someone set Fry up to be caught right in the middle of his scam...

Someone who was sick of his bullsh**

I'll never understand why seances have to be in darkness...

Leave the f***in' lights on...thats what i say...

Oh yeh...Thanks for keeping his reply to you a secret...

" I like the cut of ya' trousers, my boy...! "

DB

[thaiboxerken]

Teddygrahams

Don't be silly!

He's not, Show, the third switch may or may not be concealed, but there is a third switch.


Why, if the results of the seance had been "fixed" by the people who actually CONTROLLED the electrical circuitry of the venue, would they choose to hit the lights at a time when it would cause maximum embarrassment for the medium ?

To add drama and "validation" to their trick.


These believers don't have much in the way of critical thinking and problem solving. This is probably a side-effect of being told to just have faith.

[De_Bunk]

Showme2

Quote:

"Why, if the results of the seance had been "fixed" by the people who actually CONTROLLED the electrical circuitry of the venue, would they choose to hit the lights at a time when it would cause maximum embarrassment for the medium ?..."



I'll tell you "Why"...

Because someone like me had conned his way into a postion of trust...purely to expose a delusional kook like Fry...

Thats feckin' why...

Or

He may have pissed a real member of staff off...

He may have pissed the caretaker off...

He may have pissed anyone of a hundred people off...all who would have reason to expose him as a fraud

Thats how...

Whats a matter...can't you see thats a totally feasible, logically thought out explanation for the lights coming on...right in the middle of Frys scam / con / act...

It makes more sense than Fry actually talking to the dead and having them move trumpets around..especially as he was caught with the trumpet...

Get real...

You are so naive...

DB

[showme2]

Nope, sorry.
Single switch.
Try again ?

[showme2]

De bunk

You have just clearly demonstrated that you know very little about this matter.
There were NO staff.
There was NO caretaker.
The seances were held in the basement of a private house.

Do find out whether you know what you are talking about before you comment.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by showme2
Nope, sorry.
Single switch.
Try again ?

Your evidence that there is only one switch is what?

You don't think that these mediums are capable of placing a secret, remote switch somewhere?

It seems to me that you have simply made up your mind that mediumship is real and any mundane explanation for such events are dismissed. I suggest you visit your local shrink and tell him all about mediumship.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by showme2

The seances were held in the basement of a private house.


Why not a controlled evironment? Oh.. I know, because cheating isn't allowed in real science.

[Drooper]

Originally posted by De_Bunk
Showme2

Quote:

"Why, if the results of the seance had been "fixed" by the people who actually CONTROLLED the electrical circuitry of the venue, would they choose to hit the lights at a time when it would cause maximum embarrassment for the medium ?..."



I'll tell you "Why"...

Because someone like me had conned his way into a postion of trust...purely to expose a delusional kook like Fry...

Thats feckin' why...

Or

He may have pissed a real member of staff off...

He may have pissed the caretaker off...

He may have pissed anyone of a hundred people off...all who would have reason to expose him as a fraud

Thats how...

Whats a matter...can't you see thats a totally feasible, logically thought out explanation for the lights coming on...right in the middle of Frys scam / con / act...

It makes more sense than Fry actually talking to the dead and having them move trumpets around..especially as he was caught with the trumpet...

Get real...

You are so naive...

DB


Face it de-bunk. Being caught standing, waving a trumpet around in a seance is CLEAR proof of psychic abilities. :rolleyes:

[Psiload]

Originally posted by showme2
Psiload

OK, humourous smartass comments apart (and I can appreciate humour and wit as well as anyone else) how do you account for the fact that the lights came on despite the fact that the switch was blanked off with a box and Gaffer Tape and that, when these were removed, the light switch was still in the OFF position ?

You sceptics are the ones who want to explain everything scientifically, so explain that away scientifically ..... What the hell does why the lights came on have to do with the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? I don't know, and I don't care... but, if it'll help you get on with your life, I'll take a page out the Big Book of Woo Woo, and humor you with a scientific guess...

quantum entanglement

There, your attempt at what magicians call misdirection aside, let's talk about what was witnessed when the lights came on... the fraud caught with his hand in the luminous cookie jar.

[De_Bunk]

Showme2

Thats right...

Luminous trumpets really float about darkened rooms...don't they....

Dead people really, really come back and float objects around...

Never got anything important to say...No cure for AIDS...Cancer...or anything of real value...just float trumpets around...

Nobody is actually , physically holding the trumpets...unless you're Colin Fry of course...and the lights suddenly come on...

So you see...you, gullible kookball... ought to think a bit more logically before you comment...

Because all that means is...someone in the "house" set him up..to expose him..

Sh*t...the newspapers do it all the time...

BTW...How do you know it was a single switch...did you rewire the house...are you

"ShowMe2.. Gullible Electrician..Mediums and physics 20% discount"..????

Where ever he was faking this BS...he was set up to be exposed for the fraud he is....

Funny how this very "Trick" has been exposed and shown how its done..and then Fry is caught, doing EXACTLY the same thing....moving the trumpet with his own hands...

Whats the gamble he comes up with a load of "nonsensical" excuses....

Err...hang on a minute....he already has....

I wonder if he would like to repeat his next seance, using Infra-red cameras....I mean..its still total darkness...

It would make great TV...

You see he is going to be set up again and again...

They got exposed him once...and they will do it again...

He'd better take a good, long, hard look at the people he thinks are his friends...

DB

( PS...I never could understand the reason for taping the light switches off...What are they afraid of...are they worried that someone might jump up and turn them all on...exposing the medium for the fraud they are...???)

[Small Town Jesus]

Originally posted by showme2
Small Town Jesus

It's a luminous trumpet actually (i.e. one that glows in the dark), not an "illuminous" one ! But never mind .....

Hey, I was just quoting the faker Fry! It's his illiteracy not mine. :rolleyes:

STJ

[nick]

I always thought that seance participants were encouraged (ordered) to hold hands in order to give the impression of creating a circle of woo-woo energy, but thinking about it, I can see lots of other benefits:

- can't reach out and see if the woo-woo man has moved
- can't accidentally bump hand into dark-clothed assistants (although if you did, presumably you'd think it was "firm ectoplasm")
- can't tocuh the floating trumpet and discover that it seems to be firmly supported at one end
- can't reach the light switch

[Psiload]

Originally posted by nick
I always thought that seance participants were encouraged (ordered) to hold hands in order to give the impression of creating a circle of woo-woo energy, but thinking about it, I can see lots of other benefits:

- can't reach out and see if the woo-woo man has moved
- can't accidentally bump hand into dark-clothed assistants (although if you did, presumably you'd think it was "firm ectoplasm")
- can't tocuh the floating trumpet and discover that it seems to be firmly supported at one end
- can't reach the light switch Every aspect of the classic "seance" is geared towards controlling the "observers". The darkness of the room, the holding hands, The "spirit boxes" which are often employed, the loud music which is often played, having everyone seated at the same table, performing only for groups of selected "insiders", etc... Every bit of it is geared towards forced perspective... sit right here, look over there, watch this, and pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

The fact that there are still people left in this day and age who are willing to entertain this foolishness is profoundly saddening.

[De_Bunk]

You know what...

I've never really bothered with Fry...He didnt have a high enough profile...He still hasn't...but he's been caught out...totally exposed as a fraud....if it happened once...im sure it will happen again...

I'll have a good ol' think about it...

Maybe i could get someone to make his "friends" list....

Fry...can you really trust those around you...can you really trust them not to expose you again...

You were set up....by someone close to you...isnt that obvious...

DB

(PS...Hope this doesnt make you paranoid....:D )

[nick]

Originally posted by Druid
(Quoting Colin Fry):

... ,now we get into the area of what those attending claim they saw a) some report a dark mass wipping back into the seance cabinet and myself being thrown to the floor screaming in pain



That would be his black-clad assistant making a run for it and tripping over Colin on the way to the "cabinet" :)

Originally posted by Druid
(Quoting Colin Fry):

... place myself at risk in this way,the final straw was in 2001 when death threats where made against me by born again christians .



Excellent ! One group of woo-woos pitted against another in a contest of almost Darwinian dimensions !

[thaiboxerken]

I'm a bit confused.. is ShowMe's position that the spirits simply set Colin Fry up to look like he cheated?

[showme2]

thaiboxerken

Yep. Just like forums, you get all types in the spirit world.
A person's character does not change just because they die.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by showme2
thaiboxerken

Yep. Just like forums, you get all types in the spirit world.
A person's character does not change just because they die.

If spirits play tricks to merely make it look like mediums are cheating, how do you know if a medium really is cheating?

Do you have any objective criteria for determining if a person really has superpowers or not?

[Mr Manifesto]

It... It's gone...

My faith in humanity is GONE!

What kind of IDIOTS believe in darkroom mediums? Do these people pay for unsolicited items sent to them in the mail because they get a letter warning them they might be in trouble if they don't? Do they hand their bank account numbers to people from Nigeria via email? Do they put their nuts on an anvil and close their eyes because the fat, hooded, grinning guy with the huge mallet says he's 'got a surprise for them... you'll like it!'???

Well, that does it. I'm killing myself. Don't worry, I'll still post here... via my darkroom medium.

[showme2]

tbken
No, there ARE no "objective criteria" that would satisfy sceptics because their philosophy is "Don't confuse me with facts; my mind is made up"
99% of our experiences from the time we are born are not under what you sceptics love to refer to as "controlled conditions".
That does not mean that we should disregard 99% of what we observe.
Go and get the evidence for yourself if you really are interested in the truth.
(On second thoughts, don't bother. You will only convince yourself that someone has suckered you.)

[De_Bunk]

Showme2

Quote:

"Yep. Just like forums, you get all types in the spirit world.
A person's character does not change just because they die..."


Err...TOTALLY WRONG..

It appears that when people "Cross over" into the Spirit world..

1) They become stupid.

2) They need to be spoken to like children.

3) They forget everything that could actually 100%, prove who they really are...including their date of birth / telephone number / ATM card number / Address / what car they drove...what their dogs name was..etc..

4) They have nothing of any importance to say, even though in real life they could have been a world leader / Scientist / Doctor working in curing Cancer / Aids...etc

5) Begin behaving in a vague and non committal manner...even though, when they were alive, they were blunt and to the point.

6) They discriminate against people with disabilities.

So once again...

You talking bullsh*t..

DB

( PS..Its funny how murderers can get through...but i doubt if any medium has said..." Your Father...hung himself because he was a paedophile...didnt he...i can see a noose..."...

Murdering, torturing, evil bastards can get through...why the discrimination..???)

[thaiboxerken]

tbken
No, there ARE no "objective criteria" that would satisfy sceptics because their philosophy is "Don't confuse me with facts; my mind is made up"

That's an evasion. You really don't have any objective criteria for determining who can talk to spirits and who can't, do you?


99% of our experiences from the time we are born are not under what you sceptics love to refer to as "controlled conditions".

So?

That does not mean that we should disregard 99% of what we observe.

True, but we should question those experiences that defy the laws of physics and known sciences. We should demand that those who claim to have superpowers to submit to testing.


Go and get the evidence for yourself if you really are interested in the truth.

There is no valid, credible and scientific evidence. So far, you've only succeeded in not answering the question. You have succeeded in convincing yourself that Colin Fry isn't cheating, even after he was caught cheating. You are the one that seems to see evidence and make it fit into your beliefs. It's people like you that keep charlatans, like Fry, living a wealthy lifestyle.

[xouper]

showme2: No, there ARE no "objective criteria" that would satisfy sceptics because their philosophy is "Don't confuse me with facts; my mind is made up"No, that's the definition of a True Believer™, not a skeptic.

[thaiboxerken]

showme2: No, there ARE no "objective criteria" that would satisfy sceptics because their philosophy is "Don't confuse me with facts; my mind is made up"


Yes, this is rather hilarious, Xouper. I mean, Fact: Colin Fry was cheating and was caught cheating. ShowMe: It was spirits that only wanted to make it look like Colin Fry was cheating.

LOL. He calls skeptics the ones that don't accept facts!:roll:

[showme2]

De Bunk
You were clearly at the back of the queue when manners and civility were given out, and right up the front in the arrogance queue.
(For "queue" read "line" if you're American, but I doubt it because all Americans I've met have had impeccable manners.)
The price of your lack of decent manners is that people like me who value them will simply decline to deal with you.

By the way, you or anyone like you would not stand a snowball in hell's chance of infiltrating a seance circle. Those who are believers in the spirit world and in communication try for years to gain a place in a good circle.

Others:
I would be more impressed with your arguments if you were able to demonstrate that you knew even the basic facts of what happened at Scole. Your comments tell me that you know little about it apart from what you have been told by others on the Net.

As for seeking to claim that a medium from Sussex gained access to the basement of private house in Norfolk and rewired the light switches .... well, that is fanciful in the extreme and it does your credibility no good at all if you are willing to stretch your belief to accommodate such obvious nonsense.

Finally, I would point out that the incident that you want to use as the cornerstone of your case occurred over 10 years ago, and the circumstances are far from clear, even to those who were present at the time. It is therefore clear that those of you who were NOT there have no business making bland assertions that you "know" what happened. You cannot "know" anything of the sort (unless of course you claim to be psychic ??? .,.. Ho Ho Ho !)

[thaiboxerken]

By the way, you or anyone like you would not stand a snowball in hell's chance of infiltrating a seance circle. Those who are believers in the spirit world and in communication try for years to gain a place in a good circle.

And why is that? Is it because they want to minimize instances where they are caught cheating, like Colin Fry was caught cheating? Yep, a good "medium" has to find the correct dupes to invite to his circle. It's smart for a conman to choose those that won't ruin his scheme.

Others:
I would be more impressed with your arguments if you were able to demonstrate that you knew even the basic facts of what happened at Scole. Your comments tell me that you know little about it apart from what you have been told by others on the Net.

I could care less about impressing you. How about you impress us with actual evidence of the supernatural?

As for seeking to claim that a medium from Sussex gained access to the basement of private house in Norfolk and rewired the light switches .... well, that is fanciful in the extreme and it does your credibility no good at all if you are willing to stretch your belief to accommodate such obvious nonsense.

Doesn't really matter, the lights came on and Colin Fry was caught cheating. Colin Fry is a cheater and you are merely stretching your imagination to make that fact fit into your own personal belief. Now you've conjured up spirits that like to play tricks as the reason for Colin Fry's deception.

Finally, I would point out that the incident that you want to use as the cornerstone of your case occurred over 10 years ago, and the circumstances are far from clear, even to those who were present at the time.

There is a lady on Paltalk who was there, she said he was cheating. She doesn't believe in Colin Fry as a medium anymore. Unfortunately, she still believes in spirits.

It is therefore clear that those of you who were NOT there have no business making bland assertions that you "know" what happened. You cannot "know" anything of the sort (unless of course you claim to be psychic ??? .,.. Ho Ho Ho !)

Were you there? I've only spoken to a lady that claimed to be there. You are correct, the only way to really settle this is to put Colin Fry in an objectively controlled test. Do you think you can be a good chap and convince Colin to take the JREF challenge?

[showme2]

tbk
I too have only spoken to someone who was there.

No, I won't be a good chap and persuade Colin to submit to testing. He has a perfectly good mind of his own which he uses without any need for my guidance.

[Zep]

SM2, you sound like you know Colin Fry quite well...perhaps closer than many people in the world? That you might know quite well what is in his mind? Hmmm? ;)

[De_Bunk]

Showme2..

Thats right...im psychic...and i can levitate..

Am i lying...??

Your reply would be appreciated..

DB

[De_Bunk]

Showme2

Quote:

"You were clearly at the back of the queue when manners and civility were given out, and right up the front in the arrogance queue..."



Ok then...lets look at it like this..

You come onto a board of Skeptics and make ridiculous arrogant claims without any proof whatsoever.

You insult my intelligence with your delusions..

No it is you who is the arrogant one...You with your backward beliefs and your utter self confidence that you could do so on a board filled with skeptics...

Now thats arrogance..

No it is you...who lacks any common sense and manners...

You thought you could spread your delusions here and not have people get in your face over it.

You were in error...

You do not deserve any respect from me whatsoever.

You are delusional, live in some fantasy world, extremely easily led and gullible, as proven with the fact that Fry was caught faking it...red handed and you still believe he's not...

I find it insulting that YOUR arrogance led you to believe you would have an easy ride whilst spreading your garbage.

DB

[ImpyTimpy]

Bloody hell showme. What is more likely? A f*cking trumpet floating around, the medium possessed by the spirits wriggled out of his bonds, jumped on the table and grabbed the trumpet in mid-air only to have the lights come on at that exact moment because the spirits wanted to discredit him?

Or a guy who was cheating and got caught because someone wanted to expose the truth?

What's next? There's a little man inside the fridge that turns the lights on and off?

[Small Town Jesus]

You don't have to have been present at Scole to have the priceless image of a rather camp, rat-faced guy, waving a luminous trumpet around and blinking stupidly as the lights unexpectedly reveal his fraudulent performance.

If it was a rival spiritualist who sabotaged Fry's act then it just goes to prove the old adage that there's no honour among thieves. ;)

STJ

[Zep]

My own review of the Scole material on the Internet, such as it is, tells me that this is nothing more than a bunch of self-deluded woo-woos who have lost contact with reality some time back. That they can write "papers" in the "scientific manner" doesn't mean they have discovered the secrets of the universe. And that some of their testees such as Fry realised they were so deluded and tried to take advantage of them for personal gain is almost to have been expected.

SM2 has tried to make a big thing about Fry's "light switch" being covered during the amazing disclosure session (i.e. the OMG, a speaking trumpet! bit). I would ask: Why was the light switch covered up in the first place? This was supposed to be someone's place in the country, not any "special setting," yet the light switch in the basement (where it is probably needed, day or night) has been taped over - VERY extraordinary indeed. One would be left with the impression that SOMETHING was being set up here...

And we are now told the light came on in some "mysterious" fashion, despite being taped up. Could it have been left in the ON position when taped up but the circuit it was on switched OFF at the fusebox? Then someone OUTSIDE switched the fusebox switch back ON again? Gee - such a rational and simple solution, so so much for nothing but the "supernatural" there...

[ImpyTimpy]

Originally posted by Zep
My own review of the Scole material on the Internet, such as it is, tells me that this is nothing more than a bunch of self-deluded woo-woos who have lost contact with reality some time back. That they can write "papers" in the "scientific manner" doesn't mean they have discovered the secrets of the universe. And that some of their testees such as Fry realised they were so deluded and tried to take advantage of them for personal gain is almost to have been expected.

How dare you accuse such a distinguished gentleman as Colin of plain fraud sir!


SM2 has tried to make a big thing about Fry's "light switch" being covered during the amazing disclosure session (i.e. the OMG, a speaking trumpet! bit). I would ask: Why was the light switch covered up in the first place? This was supposed to be someone's place in the country, not any "special setting," yet the light switch in the basement (where it is probably needed, day or night) has been taped over - VERY extraordinary indeed. One would be left with the impression that SOMETHING was being set up here...

How could something be set up? Look, the light switch was covered up, nobody could touch the light switch. The trumpet was floating by itself, no, don't talk about Colin holding it, let's focus on this light switch! Paranormal indeed that it just went on by itself wouldn't you say! No, stop talking about Colin, Colin is a straight A shooter, leave him out of it! Back to that light switch!


And we are now told the light came on in some "mysterious" fashion, despite being taped up. Could it have been left in the ON position when taped up but the circuit it was on switched OFF at the fusebox? Then someone OUTSIDE switched the fusebox switch back ON again? Gee - such a rational and simple solution, so so much for nothing but the "supernatural" there...
No no no, it was them spirits you see. They turned the lights on. Why was colin standing on the table? Oh you see, he was wrestling with them spirits and they were so angry they blew the circuits and made the lights come on. Now let's analyze how it's even possible the lights would turn on. They were covered over. There is no way someone could've gotten to them, especially in all that darkness. Hell, there's no other way to turn lights on and off except through this switch here.

Look, will you stop talking about the trumpet, nobody cares that Colin was standing there because the spirits did it on purpose, they wanted Colin to look bad but look, the proof is that the switch was covered up and nobody could get to it. Only spirits could've turned those lights on! This proves Colin is a genuine medium you see.


There, do I sound like a believer yet?

[Zep]

Originally posted by ImpyTimpy
There, do I sound like a believer yet? :D :D I could ALMOST NEARLY believe you, y'know! :D

Tell you what. If I promise to ignore the man behind the curtain, will you try and convince me that the Scole stuff WAS really scientific by waving your arms in the air and concentrating? That would be very nice.

[Zep]

I think I shall have to trot this one out a LOT from now on...

[sackett]

Why do they believe?

Because it feels good. Jung talks a lot about "the numinous," i.e., the mysterious and uncanny, and of the attraction it holds. We experience the numinous in dreams, and sometimes in waking life, and it can be an epochal moment for a human being. A sense that something underlies the perceivable world, or lies beyond it, or in some indefinable way surpasses it, is part of consciousness for most people. I've felt it: a moment when the air seemed filled with silent thunder, when the unknown threatened to become known, a medicine moment. It was terribly wonderful, this feeling that an immensity was about to be revealed to me.

These moments pass, and if we're rational and honest we come to realize that they were no more than private events, literally confined to the insides of our own skulls, and without significance to anyone or anything else. Clarity returns, but it feels more like a loss than an acquisition - it IS a loss! and I'd be a liar if I denied the sadness.

The believer can't endure the sadness of a universe that isn't numinous; it's no fun; it's a universe of facts and reason, and of an overwhelming amount of difficult detail that he must somehow cope with.

So he believes rather than knows; it's so much easier; he can make it up as he goes along, and he need never, ever grapple with concepts. If some pleasing belief can't be demonstrated, the believer is no worse off; in extreme cases of believerism, he will explicitly reject demonstrable truth and abjectly accept what is demonstrably untrue.

It's no wonder that so many posters to this forum get frustrated trying to reason against concept-free thinking. Unless we can find something to offer the believer that's softer and creamier and more comfortable than credulity -- and you know we can't -- we're all just throwing water into the sea.