Inner clock

[Undesired Walrus]

Today, I planned to get up at 8, woke up at 7.55 (still impressive) then fell back asleep again. The really amazing thing was when I was sleeping, and my mind spoke to itself saying "And here we go..". I woke up at that second, and the alarm clock (at 8) went off at the exact same moment.

Amazing. What happened?

[Puppycow]

It's amazing that your alarm clock instantly woke you up?

This has happened to me before too. Do you get up at the same time every day? Once you fall into a pattern you do tend to wake up at about the right time even if you forget to set your alarm clock. Now, if you woke up at exactly the same second every day, that might be interesting, but one time is not too amazing.

[Undesired Walrus]

It's amazing that your alarm clock instantly woke you up?

No, no. I swear that I woke up at the very second the alarm clock went off, making it presumably impossible for the to be the clock that woke me up.

[ingoa]

Happens to me all the time. My clock makes a clicking noise about a second before going off. I almost never register that noise, only the ringing.

[Starthinker]

I haven't owned an alarm clock in decades. Even when I have to wake up at an odd time or get to sleep in, I wake up when I need to. After my divorce my ex once commented that one the hardest things she had to get used to was using an alarm because I wasn't there to wake her up.

[MRC_Hans]

*snip*After my divorce my ex once commented that one the hardest things she had to get used to was using an alarm because I wasn't there to wake her up.Always nice to know you served some purpose ;).

There is little doubt we have some form of internal clock (otherwise there would be no such thing as jet-lag), however, I think these precise awakenings are helped because we take subcounscious cues from things around us, mostly sounds.

Our sense of hearing is running full speed while we sleep, it is just that our 'lizard brain' sorts out most of the information. This is the reason we can sleep through strong, but familiar noise, but may wake up at a very slight, but unfamiliar sound (and the reason most people sleep poorly the first night in a new place).

I have also often been awoken just before the alarm went off, probably by the light click most mechanical alarm clocks make shortly before the alarm starts.

Hans

[Mojo]

Today, I planned to get up at 8, woke up at 7.55 (still impressive) then fell back asleep again. The really amazing thing was when I was sleeping, and my mind spoke to itself saying "And here we go..". I woke up at that second, and the alarm clock (at 8) went off at the exact same moment.

Amazing. What happened?


You've evidently been using the Synclecron. ;)

[Dancing David]

No, no. I swear that I woke up at the very second the alarm clock went off, making it presumably impossible for the to be the clock that woke me up.
Well, sleep is a strange thing, as is dreaming. It would be hard to say which is which.

[Undesired Walrus]

Yet the strangest thing was the voice in my dream, declaring "Here it comes..", only for my awakening, and the following alarm clock ringing. I often find that my dreams draw to a climax just before the alarm interupts.

Am I God?

[MG1962]

I haven't owned an alarm clock in decades. Even when I have to wake up at an odd time or get to sleep in, I wake up when I need to. After my divorce my ex once commented that one the hardest things she had to get used to was using an alarm because I wasn't there to wake her up.

I am much the same, though I didn't discover the talent till after I was divorced. For three years no matter how little, or how much sleep I had or needed, I woke almost exactly when I told myself I wanted too

[Roma]

I set my alarm clock every night but the sound of the buzzer going off nearly gives me a heart attack and I end up laying in bed for ten minutes afterwards with my heart pounding. So I set it to radio but that doesn't wake me up. Now fo the longest time I have managed to wake up just seconds before the alarm buzzer goes off so I can turn it off and spare my poor old heart. So how do you explain that?

[casebro]

Umm, maybe you folks are not as asleep as you think? You're actually awake enough to check the clock? Try repositioning the clock so that you can't see it in bed, see if the same thing happens?

But I do know that we go through sleep cycles, that last about 1:30 TO 1:45, so we wake up at the end of a cycle. Cycles get shorter as we sleep later. I know I wake up to pee at multiples of those intervals, usually about at 3 1/2 hours or five hours.

[Dancing David]

Yet the strangest thing was the voice in my dream, declaring "Here it comes..", only for my awakening, and the following alarm clock ringing. I often find that my dreams draw to a climax just before the alarm interupts.

Am I God?

Two issues:

1. Sequence in dreams is suspect. You could be waking because you hear the alarm and then the dream gives you the sequence of completion and then hearing the alarm. I spend time in reverie (semi-lucid dreaming) because of disturbed sleep, I find that the sequence of dreams is very different from waking sequence.

2. Dreams are interesting, but they seem to opertae as whole and analogies rather than sequential parts.

:)

[Tiktaalik]

I almost never use an alarm clock. A few weeks ago, I had to get up around 3:30 a.m., so I tried to set my alarm & discovered it wasn't working. I went to sleep & woke up close to the right time anyway. I go to sleep at about the same time every night, so I think it's just that our minds eventually "know" how much time has passed. We may be better at estimating the passage of time than we give ourselves credit for. It was probably a survival concern at some point in our past (sun goes down before you get home = bad). Maybe that part of our brain doesn't "turn off" during sleep...

[luchog]

Umm, maybe you folks are not as asleep as you think? You're actually awake enough to check the clock? Try repositioning the clock so that you can't see it in bed, see if the same thing happens?

When I have an alarm that goes off regularly at the same time, I often begin waking up very shortly before it goes off as well.

It's not an audio cue, because it's an electronic alarm, and doesn't have any precursor noise; and it's not visual, since I typically cover the front of the clock since it's too bright for me to sleep otherwise.

[macdoc]

I haven't owned an alarm clock in decades. Even when I have to wake up at an odd time or get to sleep in, I wake up when I need to. After my divorce my ex once commented that one the hardest things she had to get used to was using an alarm because I wasn't there to wake her up.

I'm like that as well - I never need an alarm BUT I have to have the blinds open - something with the light.

I can also nap easily- might be related.

I practice pre-sleep visualization and lucid dreaming so I think some parts of the sleep cycle are pretty accessible with some effort and trial.

[I Ratant]

My alarm, such as it is, is a timer that turns on the bedroom light at 06:30.
Sometimes the clicking of the relay that turns the light on wakes me up, but most of the time it's the light itself.
As the clock controlling the light gains about 15 seconds a day, the activation time advances, until it gets 2 or minutes ahead, then I reset it.
I did go for a couple of years without any alarm or even a wrist watch, and always knew what it was.

[Third Eye Open]

Two issues:

1. Sequence in dreams is suspect. You could be waking because you hear the alarm and then the dream gives you the sequence of completion and then hearing the alarm. I spend time in reverie (semi-lucid dreaming) because of disturbed sleep, I find that the sequence of dreams is very different from waking sequence.

2. Dreams are interesting, but they seem to opertae as whole and analogies rather than sequential parts.

:)

Agree. I remember several instances where a loud banging noise, such as a door slamming has woken me up. In my dream, someone had drawn a gun and fired it at the instant of the banging noise that woke me.

I don't think it is very likely that I just happened to be dreaming about a gunman, who just happened to fire his gun at the same time as the banging noise. More likely my brain heard the noise, found a way to incorporate it into the dream, and then mucked with the chronology so that I remembered the gun being drawn before the noise, and firing to coincide with the noise.

I tend to double check most of my memories until I have been awake for 20 minutes or so.

[Undesired Walrus]

Looking back, I think something unpleasant may have been going on in my dream, as I seem to remember waking up flapping something invisible off my body, as if it was a swarm of locusts or something. This was at 7.55. Was this sudden movement an attempt to wake myself up (I was a day behind the rent, so I had to pay it early), or just a coincidental dream?

[Denver]

Always nice to know you served some purpose ;).

There is little doubt we have some form of internal clock (otherwise there would be no such thing as jet-lag), however, I think these precise awakenings are helped because we take subcounscious cues from things around us, mostly sounds.


That's for sure. For me, it seems to be sounds of the neighborhood (neighbors driving off at the same time each morning), the heater clicking on (it's set lower until around when I need to get up), and also the amount of light filtering in through my eyelids.

Our sense of hearing is running full speed while we sleep, it is just that our 'lizard brain' sorts out most of the information. This is the reason we can sleep through strong, but familiar noise, but may wake up at a very slight, but unfamiliar sound (and the reason most people sleep poorly the first night in a new place).

Sometimes I think we can somewhat remember the few moments before, when we were unconscious. It almost feels like we were really still sort of conscious, but our thoughts were chained still, or frozen, if that makes sense.

I have also often been awoken just before the alarm went off, probably by the light click most mechanical alarm clocks make shortly before the alarm starts.

Hans

I think I'm also good at estimating time passing during the day - the more recently I've checked the clock, the better my assessment. So I wonder if we sometimes check the clock at night a few times, but don't remember doing it. And that helps sort of zero in on the waking time.

[Undesired Walrus]

Sometimes I think we can somewhat remember the few moments before, when we were unconscious. It almost feels like we were really still sort of conscious, but our thoughts were chained still, or frozen, if that makes sense.



Oh yeah, I often make sure I realise it is happening, mostly because it is so strange. It's a natural high.

I can recognise that I am thinking strange and disorganised thoughts, about illogical situations and bizzare people. Then I can allow myself to snap out of the idiocy, open my eyes, and have a rational thought. Halfway between a dream and reality. It's cool.

[JFrankA]

Oh yeah, I often make sure I realise it is happening, mostly because it is so strange. It's a natural high.

I can recognise that I am thinking strange and disorganised thoughts, about illogical situations and bizzare people. Then I can allow myself to snap out of the idiocy, open my eyes, and have a rational thought. Halfway between a dream and reality. It's cool.

I've had that happen to me too. Sometimes even when I'm really tired and I'm in the middle of a conversation, I would say something that would make a lot of sense at the time, but then after I think about it a bit I realize I said something totally nonsensical. :)

As to waking up before alarms, I don't ever use one. I find I'm usually up when I need to be. And I don't get up the same time everyday.

Now, I don't get up at exactly the time I need to, usually it's within 20 minutes. Sometimes I do oversleep, but for the most part, I just use my "internal clock".

[Zeuzzz]

This happens to me quite a lot. I will wake up a second or two before my alarm goes off. I'll usually lift my head up and then I'll hear my phone start to vibrate and then I'll get up and stop it before it starts ringing. Especially if it is a short time, like I'm just having a half and hour knap or something. Tis called Presentiment. Or chance. Or your body clock.

[Legend]

Forgive me.

I misread the title of this thread.

Alex.

[Dancing David]

Agree. I remember several instances where a loud banging noise, such as a door slamming has woken me up. In my dream, someone had drawn a gun and fired it at the instant of the banging noise that woke me.

I don't think it is very likely that I just happened to be dreaming about a gunman, who just happened to fire his gun at the same time as the banging noise. More likely my brain heard the noise, found a way to incorporate it into the dream, and then mucked with the chronology so that I remembered the gun being drawn before the noise, and firing to coincide with the noise.

I tend to double check most of my memories until I have been awake for 20 minutes or so.

I often dream about reality, which makes it very confusing.

It seems to me that dreams often come as whole packages, history and associations.

Speculation.

[Roma]

This happens to me quite a lot. I will wake up a second or two before my alarm goes off. I'll usually lift my head up and then I'll hear my phone start to vibrate and then I'll get up and stop it before it starts ringing. Especially if it is a short time, like I'm just having a half and hour knap or something. Tis called Presentiment. Or chance. Or your body clock.
Then how do you explain me never waking up to the clock when it was set to radio?

[Ivor the Engineer]

Yet the strangest thing was the voice in my dream, declaring "Here it comes..", only for my awakening, and the following alarm clock ringing. I often find that my dreams draw to a climax just before the alarm interupts.

Am I God?

No, much more serious than that. You're channeling Mick Jagger.

[bruto]

Yet the strangest thing was the voice in my dream, declaring "Here it comes..", only for my awakening, and the following alarm clock ringing. I often find that my dreams draw to a climax just before the alarm interupts.

Am I God?No, God did it. He's watching over you to make sure you wake up just at the right time. If you'd just gotten up before the clock went off, God would have had time to do something useful like saving a starving child in Darfur. But no-o-o! You had to go and fall back to sleep. It's all your fault, sluggard.

[Klimax]

Looks like mine inner clock is broken... Every time I try to program myself to wake up at given time I start to wake up every one or two hours,until original wake-up time.

[SkeptiChick]

My inner clock is broken as well. Not only do I never wake up at the correct time, I often sleep through alarms (or at least only wake up enough to turn them off, then go back to sleep).

[UncaYimmy]

I have a very accurate internal clock, but it doesn't work when it comes to waking up due to a couple of sleep disorders. Before puberty I used to sleep without an alarm.

During the waking hours I am usually aware of the time to within 5 minutes either way. A lot of times I am spot on with saying 2:27 rather than just 2:30. The shorter the time period between making my guess and knowing it "officially" the more accurate I am. By that I mean if I last saw a clock 2 hours ago, I'm more accurate than if it was 6 hours ago. My friends joke about it and test me. They also think it's weird.

When it comes to the time of day, sometimes I just know it. Other times I actually have to think back to the last time I knew the time, then estimate how long I think it has been since then.

When I cook using a timer, I am usually doing other things. Suddenly I get this odd feeling, almost an anxiety. I'll stand up and go to the kitchen. On the microwave it's usually under 10 seconds when I arrive. On the stove it beeps within seconds of my entering the kitchen. I am almost never off by a full minute or more. My wife finds it amusing. I'm just used to it.

Why use a timer at all, then? You gotta set one on the microwave. On the stove it's usually when I am making dinner. Since I am also trying to work at the same time, it's best if my wife hears it too. Besides, sometimes I forget that I have stuff in the oven.

When watching TV, I always flip around during commercials. If I start watching something else during a commercial, I get that same anxious feeling and flip back. It is uncanny how often I flip back within a few seconds of the show returning. When I'm wrong, I'm usually right at the start of another commercial. Again, my wife finds it amusing.

How accurate am I? With the actual time, I'd guess 90%. With timers, about the same. With TV? About 70%. Confirmation bias? Unlikely. Being a skeptic myself, I am well aware of the possibility. It's been going on for years and has been noticed by numerous people. In fact my wife noticed it before I ever said anything about it.

How does it work? No freaking clue. I'm a musician, so there's a sense of timing involved there - being a bass player I'm very sensitive to it being in the rhythm section. Don't know if that's related. Supernatural? Nope. Useful skill to have? Not really except that I have never worn a watch.

But it's interesting nonetheless.

[Dancing David]

I think it is possible to have an accurate sense of time passage. there are plenty of cues. Using timers will reinforce it as well. I can gauge time fairly well, but not to your accuracy.

BTW, you would have to do some blind testing to gauge what factors impact you time sense. Time shows have standard times and segment lengths, which would be cuing. So that is one factor to control for. I am not saying that you are not that accurate ( I can usually get with 5-10 mins), just that there may be subtle cues going on.

[Starthinker]

I was always fascinated with experiments with isolation, even mythbusters did it. I can't recall the specifics but I remember one where a man lived in a cave with no clocks or outside interference and he reverted to a day that was 18 hours (iirc) long in his routine. I don't think this has been studied near enough and I would gladly volunteer if anyone has any funding. When I wake up in the middle of the night I often guess the time before I open my eyes and I'm usually pretty close. Even when hopped up on xanax or valium which should retard my inner clock I can be within 5 or 10 minutes of the actual time.

[GStan]

I have always been able to program myself to automatically wake up within about 5 to 10 minutes of the actual time. I can't seem to program myself to automatically get out of the bed. Thus, I still use an alarm clock that is on the other side of the room so I am forced to stand up and walk over to turn it off.

[Modified]

I have always been able to program myself to automatically wake up within about 5 to 10 minutes of the actual time. I can't seem to program myself to automatically get out of the bed. Thus, I still use an alarm clock that is on the other side of the room so I am forced to stand up and walk over to turn it off.

I used to do that, but several times I walked over, turned it off, and walked back without waking up.

[SkeptiChick]

I have always been able to program myself to automatically wake up within about 5 to 10 minutes of the actual time. I can't seem to program myself to automatically get out of the bed. Thus, I still use an alarm clock that is on the other side of the room so I am forced to stand up and walk over to turn it off.
At one point in my life, I actually resorted to having both an alarm clock on the other side of the room AND an alarm clock in the living room to force myself not only to get out of bed, but to get so far out of bed that going back again would be more trouble than stepping into the shower... It worked for like a month before my body figured out that the living room couch was just as good to sleep on as my bed :(

[UncaYimmy]

I think it is possible to have an accurate sense of time passage. there are plenty of cues. Using timers will reinforce it as well. I can gauge time fairly well, but not to your accuracy.

BTW, you would have to do some blind testing to gauge what factors impact you time sense. Time shows have standard times and segment lengths, which would be cuing. So that is one factor to control for. I am not saying that you are not that accurate ( I can usually get with 5-10 mins), just that there may be subtle cues going on.

Oh, I'm definitely sensing some sort of subtle clues. I'm fairly confident that if you stuck me in a quiet room and told me to sit there, my accuracy would fall to pieces. I think I need to be doing something rather than consciously considering the passage of time in my own mind. When it comes to timers, sitting there thinking about it results in inaccuracy. I really need to be engaged in some activity to get that odd feeling about the timer going off.

This got me to thinking back to how long this has been going on. I remember as a kid that MASH reruns would come on at 7:30. I can't tell you how many times I came in from outside to turn on the TV and catch the theme song playing. I also used to fish a lot. I sometimes had places to be, and I remember getting back to my car right at the time I was supposed to. Of course, I probably had a good sense of the time from the appearance of the sky since I spent a LOT of time outdoors.

In a sense it gives me empathy for some of the paranormal claimants. If I wanted to believe I had some psychic ability, I could easily construct a fantasy around this. Instead I figure it's something quite ordinary. I would guess that very few people would have difficulty judging whether five or 10 minutes has passed. Whatever mechanism that does this is probably a little more accurate in my case.

I probably trained myself in the sense that I like to be one step ahead of the game and don't like to be wrong. Like with timers - my guess is that over the years I was wrong a lot of times. If I checked the timer too soon, I "learned" that what felt like 7 minutes was actually 5 minutes. Eventually I learned what 7 minutes felt like. And then I started noticing the accuracy.

If only more people would take the same approach there would be a lot less woo in the world.

[Legend]

My Inner Clock is royally screwed.

Being 16...

Alex.

[Dancing David]

This got me to thinking back to how long this has been going on. I remember as a kid that MASH reruns would come on at 7:30. I can't tell you how many times I came in from outside to turn on the TV and catch the theme song playing. I also used to fish a lot. I sometimes had places to be, and I remember getting back to my car right at the time I was supposed to. Of course, I probably had a good sense of the time from the appearance of the sky since I spent a LOT of time outdoors.

me too, it is thrown off by total cloud cover. I find that i have a harder ability to gauge time, when I am in nature and the sky is covered in clouds.


In a sense it gives me empathy for some of the paranormal claimants. If I wanted to believe I had some psychic ability, I could easily construct a fantasy around this. Instead I figure it's something quite ordinary. I would guess that very few people would have difficulty judging whether five or 10 minutes has passed. Whatever mechanism that does this is probably a little more accurate in my case.

Yes but I know what you mean about the 'it's about 4:20' syndrome, I can be very accurate. And suffer from confirmation bias.


I probably trained myself in the sense that I like to be one step ahead of the game and don't like to be wrong. Like with timers - my guess is that over the years I was wrong a lot of times. If I checked the timer too soon, I "learned" that what felt like 7 minutes was actually 5 minutes. Eventually I learned what 7 minutes felt like. And then I started noticing the accuracy.

I am somewhat obsessed with video game , so I used to set a timer to tell me when to stop. Lots of training there. Then i have sleep apnea and used to sleep extra with naps, all the time. Set the timer for ten minutes, twenty, whatever. Lots of training there. Now I have a CPAP, so I don't do it very often anymore.


If only more people would take the same approach there would be a lot less woo in the world.

Amen and halleluyah Unca!

[Undesired Walrus]

Last night I set my alarm for 6 am, determined to get up at that time.

This morning I woke up, looked over to my clock, and it was 5.59!

That is surely extraordinary isn't it? It amazed me. Are you sure the body hasn't evolved an ability to recognise a 24 hour time scale?

[Jeff Corey]

I was always fascinated with experiments with isolation, even mythbusters did it. I can't recall the specifics but I remember one where a man lived in a cave with no clocks or outside interference and he reverted to a day that was 18 hours (iirc) long in his routine. I don't think this has been studied near enough and I would gladly volunteer if anyone has any funding. When I wake up in the middle of the night I often guess the time before I open my eyes and I'm usually pretty close. Even when hopped up on xanax or valium which should retard my inner clock I can be within 5 or 10 minutes of the actual time.

The studies actually show that the volunteers shifted to a longer circadian rhythm,
"The first temporal-isolation experiments were conducted in caves, where the temperature is naturally constant and where subjects can be completely isolated from the outside world. The first major finding from these experiments was that the subjects’ circadian rhythms persisted despite this isolation, which proved that all human beings have an “endogenous clock” inside their brains.

But these experiments also showed that this clock was not perfectly accurate: it lost a few minutes every day. In other words, the subjects’ natural endogenous circadian cycle was slightly longer than 24 hours, ranging from 24.2 to 25.5, depending on the study."Reference:http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/a/a_11/a_11_p/a_11_p_hor/a_11_p_hor.html

[Soapy Sam]

I don't think it is very likely that I just happened to be dreaming about a gunman, who just happened to fire his gun at the same time as the banging noise. More likely my brain heard the noise, found a way to incorporate it into the dream, and then mucked with the chronology so that I remembered the gun being drawn before the noise, and firing to coincide with the noise.
Bingo! The inner clock which wakes us up keeps fair time, but our sense of time in dreams is , to say the least, imaginary. The sensations we dream we are having are not actually coming from the senses, but are being generated in the brain. The normal timelag correction process that tells us we stepped on the carpet tack at the same moment we bumped our head on the doorframe (despite our brain being in our head and our foot being six feet away) is totally screwed. (Google "Benjamin Libet".

My Inner Clock is royally screwed.

Being 16...

Alex.

Teenagers have an inner calendar. It has "Hibernate" and "Eat" sections, mostly. It does wear off, for what it's worth.:D


ETA- Jeff, maybe our inner clock was set in the Cambrian, when days were longer?;)