Studs and Snow Tires a ripoff?

[patoco12]

Well, it's that time of year again. Tire places have been advertising pretty hard about getting snow tires and/or studs, the media is reporting on the first snow/ice accidents of the year, and the local tire shop is swamped.

Why?

I grew up in cold, snowy Eastern Montana and we never changed tires for the winter. Some chains and a shovel were handy for offroading. Slowing down and changing driving habits are the best ways to avoid accidents.

I live in Idaho now where it is warmer and less snow, and the tire shops are crammed now. Here is the kicker: I'm the slowest driver on the road in snow. People still have summer driving habits in the snow and ice.

Here is the question: Do the tire shops hype of the importance of snow tires for sales and do the media hype up snow tires to avoid reporting that the latest people to be killed on the road were the result of careless driving??

[diddidit]

Snow tires perform better than regular tires on snow and ice, so I'd say if you do a lot of winter driving they're worth it. Some are as good as studded tires, according to tests I've seen (Car and Driver did one, I think). Studs are frequently illegal due to the damage they do to the road surface, and chains aren't something you put on and leave on all winter.

That said, decent normal tires are way, way better than the near-slicks I see so many people driving with, and nothing can take the place of not driving like an idiot. Attention SUVers going 70 in a bliding snowstorm - the only thing 4 wheel drive lets you do better is accelerate. It does not help you see better, and everyone has 4 wheel brakes, ya know! Someday I hope to pull an Explorer out of a ditch with my 14 year old Civic...

I'm in lake-effect-snow belt Western Michigan, by the way, so I'm pretty familiar with the white stuff too.

did

[kittynh]

SLOW DOWN. 10 miles per hour under the limit is the rule.

That's the secret to winter driving. Also, if you are driving in bad weather, and you hit a patch of ice, don't brake! I've seen more people who must be thinking, "whoa, it's ice, I'd better slow down......." right before they hit the rock ledge on the side of the road.

Make sure you have plenty of wiper fluid, and new wiper blades.

Let your anti locks do thier job, try them out before you need them so you know how different they feel. They won't stop you on ice, but you won't lose control. Just dodge things, it can be done.

[jj]

Originally posted by kittynh
SLOW DOWN. 10 miles per hour under the limit is the rule.

That's the secret to winter driving. Also, if you are driving in bad weather, and you hit a patch of ice, don't brake! I've seen more people who must be thinking, "whoa, it's ice, I'd better slow down......." right before they hit the rock ledge on the side of the road.

Make sure you have plenty of wiper fluid, and new wiper blades.

Let your anti locks do thier job, try them out before you need them so you know how different they feel. They won't stop you on ice, but you won't lose control. Just dodge things, it can be done.

All wonderful advice. Allow me to give some more.

Gradual, that's the key in snow and ice, BE GRADUAL. Don't do anything fast, accelerate, slow down, turn, speed, ...

DO IT ALL GRADUALLY. GENTLY!

[LW]

We have here a law that all cars have to use winter tires from November to March. Most use studded tires but also non-studded winter tires are legal. [I forgot to add: we also have season-dependent speed limits. On summer most major roads have 100 km/h limit (or 120 km/h if they have more than two lanes), but in winter the limits are dropped to 80 km/h.]

I say that is a very good thing and adds a lot to safety. A couple of times I've had to drive with summer tires on the first ice of autumn and, well, the difference is enormous. On a well-maintained road (ploughed, possibly salted) you can safely drive ~80 km/h with winter tires (much less during a snow storm, of course), but without them I wouldn't dare to drive faster than about 40 km/h, and that's already stretching the limits. I don't know how well chains on tires work in practice, my only experience of them was when I was 9 years old and living in Turkey. There we had to drive about 30 km/h when using them, but I don't know if this was more because of poor roads or of chains.

Of course, Finland has a really exceptional snow removal service. Even if it snows 10-15 cm in the evening, all major roads are ploughed before 8 am the next day.

[diddidit]

Originally posted by jj


All wonderful advice. Allow me to give some more.

Gradual, that's the key in snow and ice, BE GRADUAL. Don't do anything fast, accelerate, slow down, turn, speed, ...

DO IT ALL GRADUALLY. GENTLY!

Drive as though there is an egg between your foot and the pedals - don't crush the egg, and you'll be golden.

Kitty - frequently 10 mph under the speed limit isn't enough - going 60 (the highway limit in MI is 70) in a blinding snowstorm is wacko. Drivers have got to know.

did

[jimlintott]

If you regularly drive through deep snow then snow tires really do help. You should mount four of them. If you want to go with just two put them on the drive wheels. (duh)

Most winter driving (October to April here in northern Saskatchewan) is done on dry but cold pavement. All season tires work very well.

Kitty's advice about testing your brakes is excellent and people should do that winter and summer. If you have ABS and are sometimes finding that you don't think your car will stop in time, check your tires. Worn out tires will usually show up under braking first.

My best winter driving tip is don't spin your tires. You want traction not to break traction. If you find yourself on a slippery incline or kind of stuck try this (works for automatics). Press the brake with your left foot. Lightly press the accelerator with your right with enough force that you feel it load up. Slowly start to release the brake until you start to move. I've driven by many stuck drivers who are just spinning their tires.

[kittynh]

all wonderful advice!

I learned in Wisconsin to keep a winter kit in the car.

Space blankets, water, couple of bags of kitty litter (you can use it when winter in over), a small shovel, a small candle and tin can, flashlights, flares, first aid kit I've only needed the kitty litter (great for traction), but have pulled over and used the space blankets and flares for many a fellow motorist. The highest speed limit on roads I drive on is 50...

However, about one third of the roads in this part of the state are dirt (including mine!). They get to be real fun in the Spring when they turn to jello. Spring mud driving, now that's fun.

[Ove]

Winter tyres are good at low temperatures for many reasons. They have deeper pattern and has more grip consequently but the rubber also has another composition. It is softer than your normal tires. Basically when it gets cold your normal tires "freeze", they becomes harder and has less grip. So even if there are no snow winter tyres will still be better. But you allways has the option of driving (much) slower.

But please remember, even with winter tyres you still can't drive as you do in the summer. Drive slower. Over here there usually are a lot of 4x4 upside down at this time of year. The fools seems to think that a 4x4 is better on a slippery surface. Actually it is worse because it usually weighs app. twice as much as a regular car.

Re ABS brakes it is an extremely good idea to test them. My sister-in-law recently had a accident where she rammed another car from the back (yes she was driving to fast/to close), fortunately there was only material damage.

Afterwards she swore that her brakes had failed. She kept claiming that she braked like mad but the car kept going straight. After a while i got her to admit that the brake pedal "sorta rumbled"!!!!!!!!!!! AHA. ...........!

She had experienced the ABS system but she didn't know what it was. I made the promise then that when the first ice appeared i would find a vacated (iced)parking lot and show her how ABS brakes work.;)

[jj]

Originally posted by Ove


Re ABS brakes it is an extremely good idea to test them.

And, don't forget that because of the federal regulations (they require ABS to stop you in a straight line, without having to do any steering corrections) ABS can't stop you as fast as optimally applied brakes.

ABS COULD, with different regs that require some steering, do better than anything a human could accomplish, it's already been implemented and tested with pretty much the same hardware.

[WildCat]

My 4X4 Grand Cherokee does a great job in snow w/o special tires. And the best part is, for several weeks after a heavy snow when everyone else is digging out parking spaces and putting old furniture in the street to "save" them, I can just pick any unclaimed/unshoveled space and pull right in. Now you know why urban drivers need 4WD! :D

And, as everyone else is saying, slow down in snow and ice.

[diddidit]

Originally posted by Ove
Over here there usually are a lot of 4x4 upside down at this time of year. The fools seems to think that a 4x4 is better on a slippery surface. Actually it is worse because it usually weighs app. twice as much as a regular car.

I'm glad to hear that "SUV Invulnerability Syndrome" isn't unique to the US.

Actually, though, weight isn't generally the issue; in fact, more weight usually helps by adding grip. The problem with "four wheel drive" (typically a vehicle that normally operates with rear-wheel drive, but can either manually or automatically switch to driving the front wheels as well) is that there isn't a center differential. This can actually cause skids, as the rear wheels and front wheels are locked together at the same speed, and in a turn, one pair has to slip. "All wheel drive" as in Subarus, Audis, and others, uses a center differential to allow the fronts and rears to turn at different rates.

did

[WildCat]

Originally posted by diddidit
This can actually cause skids, as the rear wheels and front wheels are locked together at the same speed, and in a turn, one pair has to slip. "All wheel drive" as in Subarus, Audis, and others, uses a center differential to allow the fronts and rears to turn at different rates.did
My Jeep has part-time and full-time 4WD. The part time does lock the center differential, but in ful-time 4WD they are not locked, allowing the front and rear wheels to spin at different speeds. Part-time 4WD shouldn't be used except in very low-traction conditions.

[Ove]

I'm glad to hear that "SUV Invulnerability Syndrome" isn't unique to the US.

No not by far, over here it is more the Range-Rover/Landcruiser type opposet to the pick-up type but the idea is the same.

Actually, though, weight isn't generally the issue; in fact, more weight usually helps by adding grip. The problem with "four wheel drive" (typically a vehicle that normally operates with rear-wheel drive, but can either manually or automatically switch to driving the front wheels as well) is that there isn't a center differential. This can actually cause skids, as the rear wheels and front wheels are locked together at the same speed, and in a turn, one pair has to slip. "All wheel drive" as in Subarus, Audis, and others, uses a center differential to allow the fronts and rears to turn at different rates. .

One of the main problems as far as i see them is that thanks to power steering/large engines/power brakes etc. the "feel" of driving theese large cars is not very different to that of driving a small car. It lures a lot of people to drive faster than they should because "it feels just like my old Audi". They don't notice that they typically has 1½ times the mass of their old car but still only the area of app. 4 coins connecting them to the ground.

AND not to forget, the centre of gravity is higher in those 4x4's and the suspension is softer. Well ok the latest Range Rover has some automatic buildt in the suspension that lowers the car and stiffens the suspension at speed but that is one of the latest models.

I saw a british car programme (5'th Gear) recently where they demonstrated how frightfully easy a 4x4 rolls over. they made a test with a Range Rover with a strengthened rollcage and a stunt driver simulating the situation where the driver in front of you suddenly stops and you have to take evasive action. At 70 km/hr the Range Rover Rolled twice and if they had not buildt in that rollcage the driver had been killed. AT 70 KM/HR. A lot of 4x4's i meet drive considerably faster.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

A 4x4 is a wonderful thing if you are a country MD/VET/Farmer and you NEED to drive on rough roads but it is dangerous on normal roads. Actually the programme claimed that statistics prooved the fatalty rate to be higher in SUV's than in ordinary cars. Unfortunately i can't seem to find the programmes homepage.

[Ove]

OHH and by the way, the poll needs an option:

"It depends on your driving needs." (Do you NEED to drive each day?).

[kittynh]

well, as someone who loves her little Subaru with the AWD, I can' tell you that it's all I need for even the deepest snows. I have a manual, and I find that being able to down shift gives me much more control.

[Ove]

well, as someone who loves her little Subaru with the AWD, I can' tell you that it's all I need for even the deepest snows. I have a manual, and I find that being able to down shift gives me much more control.

I do think you have that, but on a icy road you would be just as much in trouble as everybody else. Porbably worse since your car would be heavyer than average. ;) Think about it and drive carefully.:teacher:

[kittynh]

oh dear, Denmark must have tiny cars...

People laugh at my bitty Subaru. In fact my only complaint is that I can't see at intersections because the SUVs tower over it. I take a lot of flack about driving an unsafe car, as if I get hit by the average car driven here ( a jumbo SUV) I'm a gonner. Me, I drive slow...and the few times my car has gone in a ditch, a few kind guys who usually pull over and myself are capable of pulling it out. I will say, I REALLY enjoy watching the Hummers in the ditch cause they think the Hummer can drive through anything, including ICE! If it's too icey, I don't go got work. In fact here, a school cancellation for snow is unheard of, but ice days we get.

I'm looking forward to being able to Xcountry on my roads again, that's the way to get around. And for ice, those new snow shoes are great (if it's really icey you don't sink in the snow). But, I don't think there's any vehicle that can do ice! (now watch someone is going to post some weird Russian ice mobile)

[jimlintott]

Actually, though, weight isn't generally the issue; in fact, more weight usually helps by adding grip.

Not completely true. When starting to move on a slippery surface weight is helpful. Once the vehicle is moving weight becomes a massive (pun intended) liability.

When it comes to turning and braking weight is your enemy. It's simply a matter of the amount of friction that can be created betwen tire and road surface has to offer enough work to overcome the weight. The more weight the more force needed. If the road and tire can't offer enough. Away you go. Slip slidin' away.

On the bald prairies when the roads get icy and the wind blows I've seen tractor trailer units blown off the road. They have plenty of weight and plenty of wind resistance.

Having said all that, I think the reality about the amount of trucks and SUVs in the ditch has more to do with driver atitude than any other single factor.

[Ove]

oh dear, Denmark must have tiny cars...

Yes that too but when you say 4x4 i allways think of something like a Land Rover, i have no idea off how big a Subaru is.:D
Having said all that, I think the reality about the amount of trucks and SUVs in the ditch has more to do with driver atitude than any other single factor.

EXACTLY.:clap: :clap:

[jimlintott]

Ove

Your average Subaru is about the size of a Ford Focus.

Don't they sell Subarus there? They are an excellent car.

There are quite a few compact cars available with four wheel drive. A buddy of mine has an all wheel drive Toyota Matrix. He claims that it is amazing on low traction coefficient surfaces.

[Ove]

Yes they do but not that many so i havent really seen enough to be familliar with the different marks. I do know that there are 4x4's the same size as normal family saloons but due to our taxation they are really expensive over here. Most 4x4's over here are the Range Rover types (and a lot of them are driven by suburbian wifes dropping the kids off at scool ;) ).
All wheel traction is a wonderfull thing you just gotta remember that you must stop the thing again and there they are no better than two wheel drive cars.

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Ove
Most 4x4's over here are the Range Rover types (and a lot of them are driven by suburbian wifes dropping the kids off at scool ;)
Same here, I have never seen a man drive a Land Rover (Discovery, Range Rover, or Freelander) and there are a lot of them around here.

I wrote a bunch of stuff about driving on black ice, but my cat stepped on my F5 key and refreshed my screen and I'm too tired to write it again!

Is this (http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/subaru/outback/100318292/specs.html?tid=edmunds.n.prices.moreresearch.0.3.S ubaru*) your car Kitty? 3500 lbs is probably monstrous in Europe, still 500 lbs lighter than my Grand Cherokee though!

[FFed]

My truck has a huge difference when driving with all seasons compared to winter tires. All seasons suck when it comes to snow.
I was just watching some consumer report about winter versus all seasons on the news and they guy was talking about the compound and how the all season gets too stiff in the cold temperatures, like -10C or something, but the true winter tires are able to stay soft well below that temperature.

[Ove]

Well this (http://www.motoringlife.ie/suzuki_liana.htm) is my car and YES your car would be considered big over here. But you have to take in account that we really don't drive the long distances you do. My car averages 16.000 km/year and that is quite typical. I have 1 min. walk to where i work and my wife has to drive 7 Km. The kids has 5min. walk to their scool and within a 2 Km radius we have 3 supermarkets and 5 discount stores (Netto-style) Luxory, i know and believe you me we enjoy it.

My wife's work is in a small town nearby and she HAS to drive there every day, that is why i winterize my car, otherwise i could easily manage with good all weather tires.

[abramis]

Last winter I attended driving school, and had the opportunity to test my drivingskills on snow and ice. The car I drove had ABS, but you could disconnect it with a button inside the car, so that we would discover the difference between standard brakes and ABS. Now, they told us that ABS doesn´t stop your car as fast as regular brakes, but that the difference would be only a couple of meters. The good thing about ABS is that you are able to steer away and go around an obstacle, and that´s as good as stopping right before it.

After theory class, we got in to the cars. I drove down a straight that was all ice, and hit the brakes. (ABS disconnected.) I stopped in 40 meters from where I floored the brake. I was only doing 50 km/h. (~31mph) With the ABS connected, I stopped in 46 meters. Thats a difference of 6 meters, and that seems bad, if you are about to hit anything. But, in the next test, we were supposed to drive 50km/h, discover an obstacle up ahead, hit the brakes, and steer away from it. The obstacle was three cones approx. 25 meters away from the braking-point.

With the ABS disconnected, I hit hit the cones sideways, and didn´t stop for about five meters after I hit them, and the car had turned 180 degrees. ABS connected, I hit the brakes, and nicely steered aside and came to a stop about five meters behind the cones. That showed us how useful ABS brakes can be. The tires had studs, but I tried another car that had summer tires, and at 50 km/h I didn´t stop until the 75-meter mark.

But what the teachers kept repeating to us, is that the best thing is to never get into a situation where we would have to brake that hard. Adapting the speed to the surrounding conditions is the key, they told us.

Oh, and by the way, you should NEVER put the two best tires on the drive-wheels of a front-wheeldrive car, because the back of the car is so light that if you get a little slip, the car will almost certainly swing around 180 degrees, and go off the road. The key is enhancing the grip on the back-tires.

[ManfredVonRichthoffen]

You've all got it all wrong. First, a comfortable driver is a safe driver, so get an SUV the size of a NYC apartment. A Lincoln Navagator, or a Ford Imposition, or the new Dodge Intrusion. Make sure you have a dvd player and display on the sun visor, so you can watch while you drive.

Now, some people will have you clean the snow off the car as you warm it up, but if you've bought the Imposition or the Intrusion, you'll know they come with a fireplace, so there's no need to warm it up. Just hop in and zip off. Don't worry about the two feet of snow on your roof, that'll fly off at highway speeds.

Make sure your housecar has ABS and 4WD, and you'll be able to get up and go, and stop as you would on a sunny summer day. I know what you're thinking, 'with all that electronical crap, my car is practically driving itself, what's the fun in that?' Don't worry, you'll be kept busy by using your cell phone with one hand, and searching through the glove box for your mix tape with the other, which will leave an elbo left for driving.

Remember, there's no such thing as skidding out of control and into a ditch. It's called Off Roading.