I Hate You America

[gumboot]

Dear Middle America,

Your greedy and irresponsible acquisition of home loans you cannot afford, your insistence on living outside your means, and your support of an unjustified and costly war has caused your economy to stutter on the brink of collapse.

But know, that in your selfishness and your greed, in your support of global conquest by the American corporations that provide you your cheap and tacky material belongings, you have dragged the rest of the world down with you.

As of tomorrow I abandon my brief blossoming career, my dream of 11 years, because your recession has pushed the cost of living here beyond the reach of what I can achieve.

Tomorrow I begin looking for a low-wage job I will almost certainly despise, because I have to.

I hate you, America.

Sincerely,
A foreigner.

***

Comments?

[Francesca R]

Nice to point the finger.

[Foolmewunz]

Dear Gumboot,

But we still like you.


Sincerely,

Middle America

[Steelmage]

But never mind the people that gave loans to middle America knowing that there is a good chance they may never pay back.

[gumboot]

Dear Gumboot,

But we still like you.


Sincerely,

Middle America


:D

Such class, Foolmewunz.

[Louisthe13th]

While I think the OP is overboard, I have had some interesting conversations with my wife about this. We have worked hard to get down to zero debt (except for the house mortgage), don't have credit cards, have an emergency fund in the bank, live within our means- no cable for 5 years, no internet at home yet, cars we pay cash for and shop at Goodwill. I'm not playing a sympathy card, I just get pissed off that some folks bought too much house. Whether from fraudulent/dishonest bankers/loan agents or just stupidity... if you can't afford it, don't buy it.

Thanks for letting me share!

[LTC8K6]

IIRC, the banks were basically forced to make such loans.

It was "unfair" not to make such loans...

[gumboot]

But never mind the people that gave loans to middle America knowing that there is a good chance they may never pay back.

I hate them too. :)

[LTC8K6]

Then it was "unfair" to require people to pay on time...

Then it was "unfair" to foreclose for non-payment...

Would have been much easier just to not loan people money who couldn't really afford to pay it back...but we had to be "fair".

[Louisthe13th]

IIRC, the banks were basically forced to make such loans.

It was "unfair" not to make such loans...

I keep hearing that, perhaps I will now actually see if that's true.

That being said, people didn't have to take the loans... that's my point.

[Cavemonster]

To be fair, none of it would have been possible without what This American Life called "The giant pool of money"

Non-US investors, largely governments, were buying up these strange mortgage backed economic products out of their greed to get a better return with supposedly less risk than other more traditional investments. Without someone to sell these bundled junk mortgages to, there wouldn't have been nearly such an insane push for lenders to create them.

So yes, the greed and stupidity of US homeowners and lenders were central, but we wouldn't be where we are today without greed and stupidity from around the world.

[Foolmewunz]

IIRC, the banks were basically forced to make such loans.

It was "unfair" not to make such loans...

I'd love to see some documentation of this.
In what year did they pass the law that said that the banks had to accept less than, say, 20% down, and then ignore all their own previous guidelines as to level of income/assets versus size of debt?

[LTC8K6]

I'd love to see some documentation of this.

Well, it was all over the news, I believe. Fortunately I said IIRC...

[quixotecoyote]

IIRC, 9/11 was an inside job. :)

[UnrepentantSinner]

Dear Angry in Auckland,

I've stayed in my crappy little apartment because the rent is very cheap. I purchased my computer in 2000 and my car in 2001. I haven't carried credit card debt for more than 50-60 days since Feb 2000 including the $6000 I spent on TAA2. I drink the cheapest beer I can stand and go out to eat a maximum of once a month. I extravigantly spent $300 on two new pairs or work shoes to replace ones that almost were falling apart after 4 years. I've been pouring as much money into my savings as possible.

And I feel like an idiot. If I'd known things were going to go like they were I would have been living it up, spending like there's no tomorrow and running up my debts like crazy. Why? Because unlike the old fable, I think both the grasshopper and the ant are going to suffer and at least my fellow Americans who were irresponsible financially had a grand old time with other people's money over the last 10 years.

I feel your pain.

US in the U.S.

Dear Gumboot,

But we still like you.


Sincerely,

Middle America

Speak for yourself Asian! :p

[LTC8K6]

http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/print.php?url=http://www.nypost.com/seven/10132008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/spreading_the_virus_133375.htm

This article lays out the info I was thinking of. Whether the article is completely accurate, I can't say.

[Francesca R]

Prior to today, gumboot thanked middle America every day because middle America was responsible for gumboot's employment and income entirely.

[JihadJane]

I love America (US bit) for making gumboot miserable. ;-)

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm sorry you got laid off, Gummy (if you did). I, however, blame the greedy guys at the top.

[linusrichard]

http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/print.php?url=http://www.nypost.com/seven/10132008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/spreading_the_virus_133375.htm

This article lays out the info I was thinking of. Whether the article is completely accurate, I can't say.

I can. It isn't. http://www.traigerlaw.com/publications/traiger_hinckley_llp_cra_foreclosure_study_1-7-08.pdf

I also wouldn't call it an "article," but that may just be me.

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

Yeah. All those billionaire banker middle-Americans, who have paid themselves billions of dollars in bonuses for getting our chest hairs stuck in a wringer, and golden-parachuted Wall Street Leech middle Americans, who have sucked billions of dollars worth of equity out of the market by the simple expedient of EBITDA bookkeeping, pimping out unprofitable loans to low-income middle-Americans, predicated on a nearly asymptotic growth rate in the real-estate market, so that they could continue making profitable loans to real-estate day-trading middle-Americans.

Yeah. It's all the fault of the middle-Americans.

[DC]

Greed is Multinational.

[Louisthe13th]

Hi

Yeah. All those billionaire banker middle-Americans >snippity<
Yeah. It's all the fault of the middle-Americans.

Gaggle: You make a good point, and I don't entirely blame "middle america". I certianly am comfortable laying responsibility where it should go, I guess I was just venting a little...

Thanks for the nudge...

[Dancing David]

Dear Middle America,

Your greedy and irresponsible acquisition of home loans you cannot afford, your insistence on living outside your means, and your support of an unjustified and costly war has caused your economy to stutter on the brink of collapse.

Interesting! Um, the credit default swaps, the bundling and sale of sub-prime loans. That is the real issue.

:)


But know, that in your selfishness and your greed, in your support of global conquest by the American corporations that provide you your cheap and tacky material belongings, you have dragged the rest of the world down with you.

Hey I vote, but not for GWB!


As of tomorrow I abandon my brief blossoming career, my dream of 11 years, because your recession has pushed the cost of living here beyond the reach of what I can achieve.

Tomorrow I begin looking for a low-wage job I will almost certainly despise, because I have to.

That is why they pay you for it, if it was fun, you would pay for it!
:D


I hate you, America.

Sincerely,
A foreigner.

***

Comments?

Hey I certainly don't always approve of what people do either.

[Dancing David]

Then it was "unfair" to require people to pay on time...

Then it was "unfair" to foreclose for non-payment...

Would have been much easier just to not loan people money who couldn't really afford to pay it back...but we had to be "fair".
Wow, if Rush Luimbaigh says it, it must be true.

Wildcat was never able to demonstrate it.

Credit default swaps and bundling of mortages are not the fault of the CRA or the FHA.

:)

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Dear A. Foreigner,

Get back to work. I need a new flat screen TV.

Sincerely,

A. M. American

[Pardalis]

You don't need to abandon your dreams, this may be temporary, and don't blame "America" for everything, it sounds like you are looking for a scapegoat.

[quarky]

Jesus will forgive us our debts.

[Beerina]

Dear Middle America,

Your greedy and irresponsible acquisition of home loans you cannot afford, your insistence on living outside your means, and your support of an unjustified and costly war has caused your economy to stutter on the brink of collapse.

Well.


The war's only $80 billion a year or so. Apparently that's not really much money anymore.


If anyone looks back on George Bush fondly, and gives him the blessing of the historian, it will be big government types for raising the ability of bloated government to spend by an order of magnitude.

[Francesca R]

The bankers have got off astonishingly lightly in gumboot's rant. I think it needs more work.

[Quad4_72]

So basically gumboot, you are blaming your failures on other people and not taking responsibility for your own actions...

[ElMondoHummus]

The bankers have got off astonishingly lightly in gumboot's rant. I think it needs more work.


From what I understand - and keep in mind that my last exposure to economics was waaaaay back in high school - your statement is really the heart of things. From having read a few sites (only one of which I'm able to remember: MaxedOutMama's "How did we get here? (http://maxedoutmama.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-did-we-get-here.html)" post), so many of the problems were based on a deterioration of capital reserves as well as a degredation of appraisal standards leading to a higher degree of risk than what was immediately apparent to anyone but underwriters. So anyway, I have a layman's take on what the problems are, and I've noticed that you're considerably more versed in economics than I am, so I'm running these impressions by you to see if they're accurate:
The problem of course originates with mortgage defaults. However, the problem is exacerbated because the risks were magnified by practicies in ways not immediately apparent to investors.
Part of the problem is that the banks above the immediate lending institutions did not have the capital margin to absorb losses, and the reason for this is agitation on the part of politicians (both Democrats and Republicans, so don't anyone else reading this think I'm singling out only one party) loosening the standards and allowing less reserves.
Another part of the problem is that bad appraisal practices led to overvaluation of many properties, and allowed the bubble to propogate.
And yet another part of the problem is that all of above problems were snowballing - defaults were rising, reserve capital was being eaten in to, yet appraisals were rising and loans were still flowing out - and they just came to a head last year.
And above everything else, the reason that the problem turned global is because, ironically, the risks were spread out among many different institutions who had bought the "tranches". So while distribution of risk is normally a good thing, it backfired this one time specifically because it was so spread out and affected so many different investment institutions.
So sure, defaulting loan customers is the base of the problem, but it's sort of like a snowballing effect: The problem starting the issue is actually not uncontainable, but circumstances happened to amplify (magnify, multiple, whatever term you want to apply) the problem, and instead of having a few mortgages fail and depress some individual areas of hyperfast real estate growth, the problem went all the way up to the base of lending, and those big institutions guaranteeing loans (AIG, Lehman Bros., etc.) got shakey, which forced other banks to dry up credit to other lenders (I'm talking way at the top here, about banks lending to other banks) to protect their own resources. And this ended up affecting everybody.

Have I got that right? Again, layman here, so I don't know how close I am to understanding this, presuming I'm close at all.

[odorousrex]

It upsets me that people pick one cause based on their political affiliations or beliefs.

Yes - middle americans going for loans they couldn't afford is a factor. Who wouldn't take a little bit of money extra???
ACORN/Dems also have responsibility, as due the greedy bankers/wall street and even the repubs for their blindness to it and out of control spending.

And now everybody is getting bailed out - again. Except those of us with no debt - who realized we couldn't afford a mortgage and house prices were insane.

We're screwed.

[Thunder]

I hate you foreigners who hate America until the last second when they desperately need our help.

I wonder what Europe would look like today if the USA had not stationed troops in Germany during the Cold War.

Can you say "da..Kommrad"???

[jhunter1163]

Mrs. Jhunter1163 and I were lucky not to lose our house, not because we were delinquent (we weren't) or bought more house than we could afford (we didn't) but because we couldn't find anyone to refinance our loan, even though we both have 700+ FICO scores.

Irrational exuberance at one end of the bubble, irrational panic at the other.

[ElMondoHummus]

Let me add an addendum to my above post: I think I see a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem, but folks better versed in economics can correct me if I'm wrong. Here it goes: My impression is that people are improperly centering blame on subprime loans for this current economic downturn. They're part of the problem, but the reality (as I think I understand it) is that overvaluation and tight reserves among lenders were the magnifying issues here that caused this to become big news instead of obscure financial issues. In other words, subprime defaults would normally not be an issue if the overvaluation (leading towards a contraction of real estate prices) and thin reserves weren't also present.

As I understand it - and again, I'm seeking correction if I'm wrong - the idea of subprime loans is not actually a bad one as long as enough reserves are kept to cover losses. They can actually be beneficial because they can encourage capital growth amongst a class of consumer who normally would be unable to contribute much towards their nation's capital growth. But a snowballing of failures in addition to a contraction of prices in addition to a sudden tightening of credit in addition to a thinning of reserves to cover defaults are what combined to birth a perfect storm of economic crisis.

Do I have this right?

[DC]

I hate you foreigners who hate America until the last second when they desperately need our help.

I wonder what Europe would look like today if the USA had not stationed troops in Germany during the Cold War.

Can you say "da..Kommrad"???

first, i dont belive gumboot ment it.

second, i dont belive that it can be blamed on a nation.

making it a national fingerpointing contest is totaly wrong and will not bring a solution, it only helps distracting from the causes.

but its also stupid to bring up some military dominance.
yes it saved our asses some decades ago. but do we have to blindly folow everyting you do now?

[ElMondoHummus]

Mrs. Jhunter1163 and I were lucky not to lose our house, not because we were delinquent (we weren't) or bought more house than we could afford (we didn't) but because we couldn't find anyone to refinance our loan, even though we both have 700+ FICO scores.

Irrational exuberance at one end of the bubble, irrational panic at the other.

Do you all have an adjustable rate mortgage? I ended up deciding against one not because I saw this crunch coming, but because I thought "Well, even though I think I'm only going to be in there for 3 years, I can't predict the future, so I'd better take the additional percent of interest just in case". Turned out to be the best damn call I've ever made financially by a huge margin, especially because I was this close (holds two fingers close together) to getting an ARM based on the now defunct assumption that I would be moving in just 3 years.

Saved my own a** big time.

As an off topic aside: Health issues okay now? I'm glad to see you continue to post, man.

[linusrichard]

I hate you foreigners who hate America until the last second when they desperately need our help.

I wonder what Europe would look like today if the USA had not stationed troops in Germany during the Cold War.

Can you say "da..Kommrad"???

"Kommrad"?

"Comrade" is an English word, ultimately from Latin. The Russian word is "tovarisch" (Товарищ). Anyway, isn't Gumboot a Kiwi? So would this even apply to him?

[slingblade]

Yesterday, we saw a commercial for a car dealership that screamed "Bad credit? No credit? No problem!"

Hubby and I looked at each other, aghast. No problem? Hello?? Why are you begging to loan money to people who have proven to either not have any, or to be poor at handling what they do have? Have you seen the mess we're in today, Mr. Car Salesman?

It's not just the consumers to blame in this.

[DC]

addiction to materialsim is one of the problems, and if that was only a middle american problem we had a huge problem less to worry about.

[rwguinn]

Waidda damn minit!
Up until the last 3 or 4 months, all the world was giggling about the fact the Euro was strong, the Dollar weak, and them uppity 'muricans was getting wat was coming to them.
The US economy was irrelevant to the rest of the world. They don't NEED us!
What happened, there? You guys worked hard to devalue us, ridicule us, and point out that all this crap was our own damn fault.
Now it turns out we were the keystone?
Hoooo, Boy! How the tide doth turn.

[erlando]

I wonder what Europe would look like today if the USA had not stationed troops in Germany during the Cold War.
I wonder what the world would look like if the US hadn't invaded Afghanistan and Iraq... But that's probably just me..

[Macgyver1968]

Dear Zealously Greedy Investor,

All of us regular Joes wanted to drop you this line to ask a little favor...Could you please stop totally screwing up the economy of the whole freaking world?

Your zeal for making millions in a short amount of time, rules be damned, has pretty much ruined the economy for everyone. Many of us regular Joes are losing their jobs because of your failed "Get rich quick" schemes...and we have to foot the bill when they go south. Your re-packaging of worthless sub prime morgages into investment grade securities (how'd you do that?), and selling of that worthless paper to people all over the world...screwed everyone, and now no one can get credit.

Your zealous over-speculation of the oil futures market, artificially increased the price of a barrel of oil to record levels...costing everyone..and weakening the economy..just so you could flip the futures contract, and make a fast buck.

Please stop this.

Thanks,

The little guy.

[dudalb]

I think its' shock because all of a sudden someone realised that New Zealand is subject to the same economic laws as everybody else.

[dudalb]

addiction to materialsim is one of the problems, and if that was only a middle american problem we had a huge problem less to worry about.



Yawn. Ya gotta love tired old lefty cliches.

[DC]

Yawn. Ya gotta love tired old lefty cliches.

:rolleyes: yeah the right wing brought the solutions.....

[MarkCorrigan]

I hate you foreigners who hate America until the last second when they desperately need our help.

I wonder what Europe would look like today if the USA had not stationed troops in Germany during the Cold War.

Can you say "da..Kommrad"???

Epic fail old son, epic fail.

The USSR wouldn't have invaded Europe. Yes the US influence on the area was a stopper on the USSR taking control but lad war was never an option for them.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I need moar fallacies!!!

[Darth Rotor]

Dear gumboot:

This is the first time in history any economy has had a slow down. :p

My condolences.

Note how waves rise and fall. So do economies.

DR

[aggle-rithm]

Yesterday, we saw a commercial for a car dealership that screamed "Bad credit? No credit? No problem!"

Hubby and I looked at each other, aghast. No problem? Hello?? Why are you begging to loan money to people who have proven to either not have any, or to be poor at handling what they do have? Have you seen the mess we're in today, Mr. Car Salesman?

It's not just the consumers to blame in this.

Well, these car dealerships make this work by gouging the buyers on interest rates, then, if they can't make the payments, repossessing and reselling the cars.

It's a business model that's worked well for decades (for the car salesmen), and has never required a government bail-out to keep going.

[Corsair 115]

Non-US investors, largely governments, were buying up these strange mortgage backed economic products out of their greed to get a better return with supposedly less risk than other more traditional investments.


Do note, however, that these international investors were told these mortgage-backed investments were rock-solid, triple-A, risk-free investments. So why wouldn't they jump at the chance of buying them? The only problem, of course, was that these investments were not the great, sound investments they were claimed to be by the sellers.

[JihadJane]

'What Cooked the World's Economy?

It wasn't your overdue mortgage.'

http://www.villagevoice.com/content/printVersion/850296

[gumboot]

I should point out that my OP was tongue in cheek. ;) I love 'Muricans. The work bit is true, but a minor setback, that's all.

The responses are interesting, however.

[Cavemonster]

I should point out that my OP was tongue in cheek. ;) I love 'Muricans. The work bit is true, but a minor setback, that's all.

The responses are interesting, however.

It sucks that you lost your job.

And however many players were involved to bring us to this point, it would be hard to argue that greedy American lenders and stupid American homebuyers who all thought house prices would go up forever are not central to the picture and don't deserve at least a healthy chunk of blame.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Good luck on your job :) !




But back to being an internet jerk, I think people are being stupid when they want to place all the blame on some external group of people like "the bankers" or "the poor" or "teh gubernmt!" There are varying levels of responsibility on a whole ton of Americans. It takes two to tango.

[gumboot]

But back to being an internet jerk, I think people are being stupid when they want to place all the blame on some external group of people like "the bankers" or "the poor" or "teh gubernmt!" There are varying levels of responsibility on a whole ton of Americans. It takes two to tango.


That's why I figured I'd blame "middle America" - it's a very broad brush that gets everyone dirty. :)

[KingMerv00]

Don't blame me, I rent.

[slingblade]

Well, these car dealerships make this work by gouging the buyers on interest rates, then, if they can't make the payments, repossessing and reselling the cars.

It's a business model that's worked well for decades (for the car salesmen), and has never required a government bail-out to keep going.


I think it helps foster a poor and irresponsible attitude towards credit. That was my point.

[Texas]

I can. It isn't. http://www.traigerlaw.com/publications/traiger_hinckley_llp_cra_foreclosure_study_1-7-08.pdf

I also wouldn't call it an "article," but that may just be me. You are confusing CRA banks with the CRA act. The CRA banks, created by Carter, can offer lower interest rates because they have a government backstop. CRA banks hold only 9% of the sub prime loans. The other banks are obligated under the CRA act to make loans to a certain number to sub-prime borrowers but had to charge higher interest to compensate for the risk. Be that as it may, it wasn't the sub prime loans that caused the melt down it was the sudden bursting of the housing bubble. People were willing to pay their mortgages on an appreciating asset but not one that depreciated so fast and so far that they owed more than the house was worth. This you can blame on Middle America since you had so many wiling to pay very inflated prices on the assumption that the prices would never go down.

[Texas]

Dear Zealously Greedy Investor,

All of us regular Joes wanted to drop you this line to ask a little favor...Could you please stop totally screwing up the economy of the whole freaking world?

Your zeal for making millions in a short amount of time, rules be damned, has pretty much ruined the economy for everyone. Many of us regular Joes are losing their jobs because of your failed "Get rich quick" schemes...and we have to foot the bill when they go south. Your re-packaging of worthless sub prime morgages into investment grade securities (how'd you do that?), and selling of that worthless paper to people all over the world...screwed everyone, and now no one can get credit.

Your zealous over-speculation of the oil futures market, artificially increased the price of a barrel of oil to record levels...costing everyone..and weakening the economy..just so you could flip the futures contract, and make a fast buck.

Please stop this.

Thanks,

The little guy.You do know that if it wasn't for those "greedy investors" risking their money you would be hard pressed to find a decent job don't you? So 150 dollar oil was just speculation was it? LOL You need to think about India and China and their effect on demand.

[Corsair 115]

So 150 dollar oil was just speculation was it?


According to a 60 Minutes piece a couple of weeks ago, it was. At least, that's what the knowledgeable traders they interviewed for the program said.

[Gangularis]

prior to today, gumboot thanked middle america every day because middle america was responsible for gumboot's employment and income entirely.

rofl!!

[Skeptic]

Waidda damn minit!
Up until the last 3 or 4 months, all the world was giggling about the fact the Euro was strong, the Dollar weak, and them uppity 'muricans was getting wat was coming to them.
The US economy was irrelevant to the rest of the world. They don't NEED us!
What happened, there? You guys worked hard to devalue us, ridicule us, and point out that all this crap was our own damn fault.
Now it turns out we were the keystone?
Hoooo, Boy! How the tide doth turn.

The USA is BOTH the evil empire whose greedy capitalist pigs ruined the world's economy by dragging it down with them, AND a backwater country way past its economic prime which no longer matters to the rest of the world.

Just like Jews (or Israel, or "the Zionists") are weak, pathetic, and about to be destroyed -- and also control the USA, Europe, and the world through an all-powerful conspiracy.

Just like the West in general is a decadent, weak, and pathetic area about to be destroyed by the victories Islamic warriors any day now, and a powerful evil force which plans to wipe out all Muslims with its enormous military superiority.

Just like evolution is a "theory in crisis" about the be destroyed by the truth of creationism, and also a powerful juggernaut on the verge of wiping out the very last vestiges of teaching the biblical truth in the previously-freedom-loving USA.

Etc., etc., etc.

When you hate someone, logic isn't necessary.

[JoeyDonuts]

Dear Rest of World:

*RULE 10*

Thank you.

[Richard Masters]

Dear Middle America,

Your greedy and irresponsible acquisition of home loans you cannot afford, your insistence on living outside your means, and your support of an unjustified and costly war has caused your economy to stutter on the brink of collapse.

But know, that in your selfishness and your greed, in your support of global conquest by the American corporations that provide you your cheap and tacky material belongings, you have dragged the rest of the world down with you.

As of tomorrow I abandon my brief blossoming career, my dream of 11 years, because your recession has pushed the cost of living here beyond the reach of what I can achieve.

Tomorrow I begin looking for a low-wage job I will almost certainly despise, because I have to.

I hate you, America.

Sincerely,
A foreigner.

***

Comments?

And by America, you mean the United States of America, and not the neighboring countries, I presume.

[Richard Masters]

Dear Middle America,

Your greedy and irresponsible acquisition of home loans you cannot afford, your insistence on living outside your means, and your support of an unjustified and costly war has caused your economy to stutter on the brink of collapse.

But know, that in your selfishness and your greed, in your support of global conquest by the American corporations that provide you your cheap and tacky material belongings, you have dragged the rest of the world down with you.

As of tomorrow I abandon my brief blossoming career, my dream of 11 years, because your recession has pushed the cost of living here beyond the reach of what I can achieve.

Tomorrow I begin looking for a low-wage job I will almost certainly despise, because I have to.

I hate you, America.

Sincerely,
A foreigner.

***

Comments?

Don't blame me, I voted for Ron Paul and Obama. Blame your dependence on the United States.

[Texas]

And by America, you mean the United States of America, and not the neighboring countries, I presume.

I blame Canada.

[Gangularis]

I blame Canada.

You would!

[Francesca R]

The problem of course originates with [ . . . ]"The problem was that we'd all made a big mistake coming down from the trees in the first place. And some think that even the trees had been a bad move, and no-one should ever have left the oceans." ;)

[gumboot]

And by America, you mean the United States of America, and not the neighboring countries, I presume.


Well that's why I said middle America. :)

[gumboot]

Don't blame me, I voted for Ron Paul and Obama. Blame your dependence on the United States.

The problem is the USA's dependence on the rest of the world.

[Francesca R]

Is that nothing more than a problem? Is that the only problem?

(No on both counts)

[gumboot]

Is that nothing more than a problem? Is that the only problem?

(No on both counts)

Huh?

[JihadJane]

Etc., etc., etc.

When you hate someone, logic isn't necessary.

Self-knowledge is a wonderful thing.

[Francesca R]

Huh?Is [the USA's dependence on the rest of the world] wholly a bad thing? If the USA did not depend on the rest of the world, would you have no reason to hate middle America?

[gumboot]

Is [the USA's dependence on the rest of the world] wholly a bad thing? If the USA did not depend on the rest of the world, would you have no reason to hate middle America?


I don't actually hate America, but no if the USA didn't depend on the rest of the world I don't think I'd have a reason to hate middle America. :)

[JihadJane]

I don't actually hate America, but no if the USA didn't depend on the rest of the world I don't think I'd have a reason to hate middle America. :)

Is "middle America" located between the top and the bottom or between the two sides?

And aren't those responsible for legalizing bucket shops more culpable that those with their snouts in the buckets? If someone chucked a load of money at you who could blame you for pocketing some of it?

[martu]

Dear Greedy People all over the World,

If you took out that mortgage you couldn’t pay back or you agreed to sell that mortgage to that person you knew couldn’t pay it back or you were working in the Structured Product division of the bank and sold these loans on you were a greedy *Rule 10* that has messed things up for the rest of us.

Next time if something seems too good to be true just assume it is too good to be true and do something else.

Thank you

[TragicMonkey]

Epic fail old son, epic fail.

The USSR wouldn't have invaded Europe. Yes the US influence on the area was a stopper on the USSR taking control but lad war was never an option for them.

Um, I'm sorry, but the USSR did invade European countries and kept them for fifty years! Ask Czechoslovakia and Hungary about Soviet invasions.

[gumboot]

If someone chucked a load of money at you who could blame you for pocketing some of it?


If someone offered me a loan I couldn't afford, I would refuse it.

[a_unique_person]

IIRC, the banks were basically forced to make such loans.

It was "unfair" not to make such loans...

That's not the case at all. The banks actively chased and encouraged people to take out those loans when they had no initial thought of doing so. And the current crises is much more than the sub prime problem, the sub prime part was just the first crack that appeared.

[JoeyDonuts]

And the current crises is much more than the sub prime problem, the sub prime part was just the first crack that appeared.

The "canary in the mine shaft," would you say?

[ElMondoHummus]

"The problem was that we'd all made a big mistake coming down from the trees in the first place. And some think that even the trees had been a bad move, and no-one should ever have left the oceans." ;)

Well, sure, I guess if you're looking at the truly root problem... to everything... :boggled:

[JihadJane]

If someone offered me a loan I couldn't afford, I would refuse it.

What if you were a banker?

[Cavemonster]

"The problem was that we'd all made a big mistake coming down from the trees in the first place. And some think that even the trees had been a bad move, and no-one should ever have left the oceans." ;)

Personally I think the buck stops with sexual reproduction. If we just stopped at budding and let it be, we wouldn't be in this mess.

[ingoa]

Well that's why I said middle America. :)

[south park] Blame Panama!! Blame Panama!! [/south park]

:D

[Ivor the Engineer]

I'm apathetic towards America with respect to the "financial crisis" because whilst the interest on my savings is crap, house prices have plummeted, allowing me to buy a nice one with a mortgage I can afford to pay back.

[erlando]

I'm apathetic towards America with respect to the "financial crisis" because whilst the interest on my savings is crap, house prices have plummeted, allowing me to buy a nice one with a mortgage I can afford to pay back.

As in every game there are winners and losers. For someone like you just entering the market you can easily make a bargain.

Someone who entered the market just six months ago are more or less stuck with their house for a considerable period into the future.

[uruk]

I should point out that my OP was tongue in cheek. ;) I love 'Muricans. The work bit is true, but a minor setback, that's all.

The responses are interesting, however.

If things get worse for you, you could always immigrate to the U.S. and get on welfare.
It'll help if you have a wife with 16 children.

[dudalb]

The New Zealand economy will recover when Jackson starts filming "The Hobbit"...:D

[gumboot]

What if you were a banker?

Why do you think that would make any difference?

[JimBenArm]

You hate us now? Well, that's it! I'm taking the kids and moving in with Mother!

[technoextreme]

Comments?
Never mind. I must read all posts before commenting.

[JihadJane]

Why do you think that would make any difference?

Bankers don't have to pay back their debts.

[gumboot]

Bankers don't have to pay back their debts.

How did you come to that conclusion?

[Klimax]

Um, I'm sorry, but the USSR did invade European countries and kept them for fifty years! Ask Czechoslovakia and Hungary about Soviet invasions.
Yep,right here.But it was for forty years (+1) we were under Moscow.(1948-1989)Not that it was not bad enough,economy was in ruin.


How did you come to that conclusion?

Stereotypes,CT thinking and "dislike"? (Maybe some were missed)

[UnrepentantSinner]

According to a 60 Minutes piece a couple of weeks ago, it was. At least, that's what the knowledgeable traders they interviewed for the program said.

Pshaw! Are you're going to believe a bunch of futures traders involved in the business or are you going to believe someone asserting "common knowledge" on the Internet?

Well that's why I said middle America. :)

Oh, you meant Cent...

[south park] Blame Panama!! Blame Panama!! [/south park]

...grrr, beat me to it. :D

[bigred]

Prior to today, gumboot thanked middle America every day because middle America was responsible for gumboot's employment and income entirely.
lol - touche

fn foreigners. Good thing they make good food at least (well OK except for Great Britian).

[BPSCG]

Some people just shouldn't be allowed to own houses (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/02/AR2009020203163.html?hpid=topnews).

A recent study by the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency found that more than 50 percent of troubled homeowners had missed at least one payment six months after a lender modified their loan, and lenders and other researchers report similar default rates on modified mortgages.

On a related note...

I was in an airport a couple of weeks ago. Right near the gate for my plane, there was a kiosk with a big Southwest Airlines logo on it and a big Visa logo on it. Guy standing next to it was hawking free baseball caps and all kinds of Southwest frequent flyer points if you signed up for a Visa card.

Methinks, "Wait a minute. I keep hearing that the economic engine is seized up, that there's no credit out there any more, that capital, not labor, is on strike, that lending standards have gotten a lot stricter. And yet, here's this guy offering credit to complete strangers in an airport!!!"

That was the point where my head exploded.

[Gangularis]

Is there a thread that addresses the cause of the current financial crisis, or is this the place to discuss it?

[Skeptic]

How did you come to that conclusion?

Marx said it, I guess.

[Skeptic]

So far as I could make it out, "getting a credit card" means signing documents you don't understand, on the advice of people you don't know, so that you can buy stuff you don't need to impress people you don't like with money you haven't got.

[Damien Evans]

Is there a thread that addresses the cause of the current financial crisis, or is this the place to discuss it?

There's bound to be a few in the economics subforum.

http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=83

[KoihimeNakamura]

I have one. Mostly use it for monthly payments and occasional (when I get paypal working) donations.


ETA: Of course, it's limit is under a single paycheck. Not that dumb.

[KingMerv00]

How did you come to that conclusion?

Easy, she started with it.

[Dancing David]

Bankers don't have to pay back their debts.

Not if we have bailouts, time to nationalize the failing banks get them stable and sell them back to the private sector.

[Dancing David]

So far as I could make it out, "getting a credit card" means signing documents you don't understand, on the advice of people you don't know, so that you can buy stuff you don't need to impress people you don't like with money you haven't got.

For reasons you don't understand as well.

[gumboot]

I have now managed to get the best job of my entire life, and while the rest of the world screams that the end is nigh, I am looking forward to the best 9 months of my life, in every possible way.

In the interests of fairness, I have decided, without real justification, to make Middle America responsible for my good fortune. So thank you, Middle America. I love you.

[WildCat]

Wildcat was never able to demonstrate it.
More proof that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

[WildCat]

And I'd just like to point out that it's the people on the east and west coasts that have driven the crisis. Middle America hasn't seen nearly the volatility in the housing market that the coasts have.

[Foolmewunz]

Dear Gumboot,

But we still like you.


Sincerely,

Middle America



See? I knew we'd come through for you, Gumboot.

Just doing my duty, sir. Come along, Tonto. Our job is finished here. Hi Yo Silver.... And Away!

[MG1962]

And I'd just like to point out that it's the people on the east and west coasts that have driven the crisis. Middle America hasn't seen nearly the volatility in the housing market that the coasts have.

Actually that is very true through Kansas Oklahoma and the Dakota's. Here in Kansas the Dept of Commerce is still projecting about a half a percent growth for the year. A stunning figure given what is happening in other places. Unemployment has still managed to lag behind the nation by a couple of percentage points. So fingers crossed we can ride this out a little better than some poor folk

[Foolmewunz]

And I'd just like to point out that it's the people on the east and west coasts that have driven the crisis. Middle America hasn't seen nearly the volatility in the housing market that the coasts have.

See, now I thought that by Middle America, he was referring to the middle classes, not the geographic area between the mountains.

[Kestrel]

Some people just shouldn't be allowed to own houses (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/02/AR2009020203163.html?hpid=topnews).


On a related note...

I was in an airport a couple of weeks ago. Right near the gate for my plane, there was a kiosk with a big Southwest Airlines logo on it and a big Visa logo on it. Guy standing next to it was hawking free baseball caps and all kinds of Southwest frequent flyer points if you signed up for a Visa card.

Methinks, "Wait a minute. I keep hearing that the economic engine is seized up, that there's no credit out there any more, that capital, not labor, is on strike, that lending standards have gotten a lot stricter. And yet, here's this guy offering credit to complete strangers in an airport!!!"

That was the point where my head exploded.

The downside for the credit card company is they occasionally give a baseball cap to someone who is not qualified for a credit card.

[Kestrel]

See, now I thought that by Middle America, he was referring to the middle classes, not the geographic area between the mountains.

Excluding certain large cities like Chicago that did have a run up in housing prices.

[bigred]

And I'd just like to point out that it's the people on the east and west coasts that have driven the crisis. Middle America hasn't seen nearly the volatility in the housing market that the coasts have.
Yeah I hear Cleveland is doing really well.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

Dear America,

Seriously?
"The heat was hot"??
"There were plants and birds and rocks and things"???
Those were the best lyrics you could come up with?
And you couldn't even take the time to name your damn horse?

I, too, hate you America.

Sincerely,

An Angry Rubber Chicken with a Pulley in the Middle

[Doctor Evil]

I have now managed to get the best job of my entire life, and while the rest of the world screams that the end is nigh, I am looking forward to the best 9 months of my life, in every possible way.

In the interests of fairness, I have decided, without real justification, to make Middle America responsible for my good fortune. So thank you, Middle America. I love you.

Congratulations seems to be in order. Enjoy your new job.

[TaoMacGuy]

Reminds me of the Winston Churchill quote: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."

I've felt that way about my country (The USA) at times. Not so much lately. :)

Hope lives!

[TraneWreck]

Edit: didn't realize how old this was...deleted.

[WildCat]

Excluding certain large cities like Chicago that did have a run up in housing prices.
Nothing like on the coasts. In fact, I'm getting $100/month more for my rental unit upstairs than I was getting 4 years ago. A slightly more than 10% increase.

[ZirconBlue]

I have now managed to get the best job of my entire life, and while the rest of the world screams that the end is nigh, I am looking forward to the best 9 months of my life, in every possible way.

Lamaze coach? Test tube Monitor?