Nice Atheists are nice because of God

[calladus]

Pardon me if this has already been posted somewhere:

Billy Graham: Atheist uncle is Christlike because we are all made in God's image (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/graham/146555_billy12.html)


My uncle is one of the most loving, kind, Christlike people I know -- but he's an atheist who doesn't have any use for God or religion. How do you explain this? I've always been taught that people who don't believe in God are very selfish. -- K.L.

DEAR K.L.: Yes, some people who don't believe in God are very self-centered -- but some of them aren't, and your uncle apparently falls into that category.

. . .

he isn't good because he is a good man; he is good because he bears God's image. Think how much better he would be if he knew Christ and had submitted his life to God's control!


I used to respect Billy Graham 'cause he didn't show the same kind of BS that other fundamentalists do -

I'm losing that respect fast now.

[c4ts]

Don't all men supposedly bear God's image? Even the bad ones? His answer to the question is meaningless.

[Nyarlathotep]

Religious people (and especially Christians) are often amazed that one can be an atheist and not be a rapist/murderer/general scumbag. My wife was even told once "How can you be an atheist? You're so good with your kids." I find it amusing actually.

I think it comes from the fact that so many of thema re brainwashed to belive that morals are exclusive province of religion. Threfore, they conclude, if one has no religion one must have no morals.

[hgc]

What are you so upset about? This is quite a tolerant and generous attitude, especially when you consider what his rabid boy Franklin might say.

[calladus]

Originally posted by hgc
What are you so upset about? This is quite a tolerant and generous attitude, especially when you consider what his rabid boy Franklin might say. I'm upset 'cause I LIKE Mr. Graham - and I want to respect him. It's painful to see someone stumble when you think well of them. And to me, this was a fairly large-ish stumble.

What I expected Mr. Graham to say is something along the lines of morality depending on the person, not what they say they believe. I honestly did not expect him to blame an Atheist's goodness on god.

Maybe that makes me naive about Mr. Graham.

[c4ts]

It's too bad so many people think anything religious must be moral, and anything moral must have religious cause. You can justify anything with religion. Anything!

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by calladus
Billy Graham says...
he isn't good because he is a good man; he is good because he bears God's image.

Hmmm, I guess I read this a little different than you folks did. I took the part about "he bears God's image" to mean that he appears to be good, in that "God's image" is good.

IOW, Graham is saying that he is good because he is doing good-looking things.

Granted, it is pretty odd ("He is good because he does good things"), but it is standard christian babblespeak. "He's not a good man, he is just doing good things."

Note that he says that he needs to accept Jesus to be a good man. Not sure why that would change his actions, though.

And I'm sure there aren't any self-centered God lovers out there...

[Yahweh]

I've always been taught that people who don't believe in God are very selfish.

That is just sick and perverted.

[Corey]

I can see the reason for the desire from another atheist/agnostic to believe that a prominent Christian leader can be reasonable and tollerant, in hopes that a Pat Robertson or Fred Phelps are the exception and not the rule. However, I think you have to remember that at the end of the day Christianity is still an exclusive religion. They're of the opinion that if you don't believe what they do, you're in for an eternity of punishment and you are at best pathetically ignorant and at worst a bad person. There are obviously going to be people who follow that line of thinking to greater or lesser degree, but in my personal experience with most fundamentalist christians if you're not one of them they're only inclined to be tollerant of you and nice to you out of bare minimum of politeness or because they think they can convert you or convince you to come to their church...and if you don't, they drop their efforts.

Graham may be a little more user friendly than most preachers, but he's still a preacher...most of his reasoning is going to center around Christianity and his job is to let you know what you're doing wrong by his standards and get you on his side, not be tollerant and accepting of those who aren't of his philosophy.

[Corey]

Originally posted by pgwenthold


[snip]
And I'm sure there aren't any self-centered God lovers out there...


I was under the impression that Christians and Theists weren't concerned with money, sex, self promotion or any of those types of things and were only concerned with glorifying god and serving his interests. I know there's certainly never been any of those types of problems among their leadership and figureheads, right?


We all know it's not what you do that makes you good or bad, simply what you believe in. You can do all the good deeds you want, it doesn't make you a good person and everyone sins, so that doesn't make you a bad person.

Unless you're not a christian, then you're evil, hands down.


[Sarcasm Meter: 8.5] [Obvious Factor: 9.3]

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Yahweh


That is just sick and perverted.

Nah, it's just incorrect.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Corey

I was under the impression that Christians and Theists weren't concerned with money, sex, self promotion or any of those types of things and were only concerned with glorifying god and serving his interests.

Only if it gets them into heaven.

[Ralph]

On the other hand......look at how vicious & hatefull some of the "devout" can be.....

Shirley Phelps...(daughter of the "God hates fags" preacher
Fred Phelps.....) was on Howard Stern this am......

I don't think I've ever heard a more hate-filled, self-righteous bitch in my life........

I'm sure Bin Laden's quite devout too.....................

People who "know" what "God" wants for EVERYBODY ELSE....scare the hell out of me.

I'll take a good-ole godless commie any day over these people........

[c4ts]

Don't forget Jack Chick!

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Corey

Graham may be a little more user friendly than most preachers, but he's still a preacher...most of his reasoning is going to center around Christianity and his job is to let you know what you're doing wrong by his standards and get you on his side, not be tollerant and accepting of those who aren't of his philosophy.

I personally don't believe that Brother Billy, like many Christian leaders, believes the crap he preaches.
He has actually studied the origins of this stuff and is apparently fairly intelligent..

I suggest he is on a power trip, and knoweth full well what he does...

[calladus]

Originally posted by Diogenes
I personally don't believe that Brother Billy, like many Christian leaders, believes the crap he preaches.
He has actually studied the origins of this stuff and is apparently fairly intelligent..

I suggest he is on a power trip, and knoweth full well what he does...

Diogenes, in my dark hours I fear this is true.

I am usually a very optimistic person, the glass is always half full for me. I bet on people being nice, and most of the time I win.

When I come across something like this, I am always sorrowful. I'm not caught quite off guard 'cause I wasn't born yesterday. But I am disappointed. :(

[calladus]

Originally posted by Corey
We all know it's not what you do that makes you good or bad, simply what you believe in. You can do all the good deeds you want, it doesn't make you a good person and everyone sins, so that doesn't make you a bad person.
This is another reason why I left Christianity - the old 'Works' vs 'Grace' salvation argument.

The Landover Baptists put it best in their parody of the Native American samaritin versus the Death Row Killer Saved By Jesus. A lifetime of good works and cheerful giving by the Native American couldn't keep him out of hell. A lifetime of killing and raping by the deathrow inmate couldn't keep him out of Heaven. The NA believed in Nature and the inmate was saved on his last day on Earth.

Unfortunately aspects of this 'parody' were played out in my church so often that it became a physical pain to me.

Yea, I've heard the argument that if the killer REALLY REALLY repented, then he wouldn't be evil anymore, and that I would think he was a nice guy after his death. Maybe so (given the illusion is real.)

But I could not bring myself to love a diety that could toss into hell those good people who's only sin was disbelief or doubt.

[Brown]

I consider Graham's response to be outrageous. Imagine him saying "Think how much better he would be if he were white" and you'll get some idea of how bigoted I consider the remark to be.

[calladus]

Originally posted by Brown
I consider Graham's response to be outrageous. Imagine him saying "Think how much better he would be if he were white" and you'll get some idea of how bigoted I consider the remark to be. OoooOOooh!

What an excellent litmus test! I can substitute 'white' for all sorts of words - not just "Christian."

Works real good as a substitution for the word, "Saved."

[Scoobmaster]

I often have similar discussions with my co-worker (He is a fundamentalist). I recently dismissed my faith (much like Ruby and RoadToad - logic broke through the web of deception).

When he tries to "win me back for the kingdom" he sometimes brings up the "how can I be moral and just without Christ in my life?

I am taken aback by this - I simply tell him that I am the same person he has know for many many years (albeit a lot more clear-headed and stronger in my critical thinking skills). It is not like my alignment suddenly shifted from neutral good to chaotic evil (like a few of my unlucky D&D characters did under influence of curses/spells)

:)

[Zep]

Note who Brother Graham is talking to - a younger person who is one of his followers and raising reasoned doubts about Brother Graham's preachings. And what does he do? He tries to force-fit his own morality onto the situation, regardless of the reality, to paper over the cracks in his arguments.

In other words, he's a shameless lying gadfly. R.E.S.P.E.C.T.??? No way.

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

I'm telling everyone atheists will be considered stupid unless if they start preaching door to door!

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by calladus
Pardon me if this has already been posted somewhere:

I used to respect Billy Graham 'cause he didn't show the same kind of BS that other fundamentalists do -

I'm losing that respect fast now.

Billy got it right this time. I will add that atheists are not merely nice, but moral, upstanding, patriotic, decent, and lovable!!!

Did I mention lovable? :p

How wise of God to create us atheists like that!

[oldmac22]

I take solace in the fact that there are people who blindly believe in a religion. Talking to them I realize they don't have the capacity to carry on with life without their religious opiate.

To push the truth on them would be cruel. As long as what they believe is either harmless or helpful, I say let them be.

By the way this is my first post and I have no idea of the protacal or even where you people get your avatars. I'll eventually figure it out.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Brown
I consider Graham's response to be outrageous. Imagine him saying "Think how much better he would be if he were white" and you'll get some idea of how bigoted I consider the remark to be. I don't think it's akin to racial bigotry. In my view, it's more along the lines of "He's a good public servant, but think how great he'd be if he embraced the Democratic platform." Or "He's an attentive boyfriend, but think how perfect he'd be if he'd cultivate his romantic side and weren't such a sports fanatic." Or "He's an excellent first officer, but think how much better he'd be if not for his slavish obsession with logic."

In other words, highly subjective and arguably objectionable assessments, but not ones that make involuntary factors (like race) a matter of personal culpability or merit.

[Samus]

Originally posted by oldmac22
By the way this is my first post and I have no idea of the protacal or even where you people get your avatars. I'll eventually figure it out. Hey mac, you need 50 posts before you can have an avatar. After 50, you'll see where to upload it in your user profile. As for the protocol in these parts, well, I'm still trying to figure that out myself! :)

Welcome.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by calladus

This is another reason why I left Christianity - the old 'Works' vs 'Grace' salvation argument.

The Landover Baptists put it best in their parody of the Native American samaritin versus the Death Row Killer Saved By Jesus. A lifetime of good works and cheerful giving by the Native American couldn't keep him out of hell. A lifetime of killing and raping by the deathrow inmate couldn't keep him out of Heaven. The NA believed in Nature and the inmate was saved on his last day on Earth.

Unfortunately aspects of this 'parody' were played out in my church so often that it became a physical pain to me.

Yea, I've heard the argument that if the killer REALLY REALLY repented, then he wouldn't be evil anymore, and that I would think he was a nice guy after his death. Maybe so (given the illusion is real.)

But I could not bring myself to love a diety that could toss into hell those good people who's only sin was disbelief or doubt.

This is also reminiscent of a story ( maybe in the " Onion ") about the seriall killer being reunited with his victims in heaven.

The saved by 'grace' faction is an illogical cut above, the saved by works'ers....

[c4ts]

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0037/0037_01.asp

[calladus]

Originally posted by c4ts
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0037/0037_01.asp

Oh great! Chick is so classy!

What a cartoon. For some reason it reminds me of the bridge keeper at the Bridge Of Death in Monty Python's "Holy Grail". With God (or Jesus) as the bridge keeper.

"WHAT will save you from eternal hellfire?!"

"Works! No, GraaaAAAIAIIIIIEEEEeeeee...."

(Of course, King Author would know the right answer. "When you rule by divine right, you just know these things.")

[Teh Wiccan]

Originally posted by c4ts
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0037/0037_01.asp
Thats why I couldn't stand Christianity... Good people go to hell and the bad guys go to heaven? Doesn't make sense.

[LawnOven]

Hmm, thanks god.

praise the lord

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by c4ts
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0037/0037_01.asp

HAHAHAAAAA!!!!

Ok, now THAT was funny!

(I sure a god-fearing man like Hitler will make a fine bridge partner in Heaven...)

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Yahweh


HAHAHAAAAA!!!!

Ok, now THAT was funny!

(I sure a god-fearing man like Hitler will make a fine bridge partner in Heaven...)

I thought about doing a parody of that one but I figured there's no need.

[Mushinronsha]

A quote a day keeps an avatar within reach.

Please ignore this shameless post.

Mushy

[c4ts]

Please take your spam to where it belongs, in the JREF forum community section. Please don't spam here, unless you happen to be Billiefan, who does the community a favor by not posting his utter bullsh** over there.