Christian bus counter ad: "the fool hath said in his heart..."

[skeen]

The irony of their response is amazing.

Three Christian groups have banned together to counter the recent atheist bus ad campaign in London, according to a report on Brand Republic.

The atheist ads have the slogan, "There is probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."

The new ads to go up on 100 buses to run for two weeks will say, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." This is a biblical quote from Psalm 53:1.

The groups that have joined forces to put up the biblical ads are The Christian Party, the Trinitarian Bible Society, and the Russian Orthodox Church.

http://www.examiner.com/x-2044-Atheism-Examiner~y2009m2d4-Christian-groups-counter-atheist-bus-ads-in-London

[Gate2501]

The irony of their response is amazing.

"Bible says you are dumb if you don't believe what the bible says."

[KingMerv00]

"Fool" is not the same as "dumb".

The argument is still pretty awful though.

[Gate2501]

"Fool" is not the same as "dumb".

The argument is still pretty awful though.


Right well, I was just trying to be funny. :cool:

[Chupacabras]

I only wish I had money enough to put the most criminal bible verses on buses. Like stoning your own unruly sons to death and despising women in many ways. Heck, even the way king David made things up to kill one of his generals' so to screw his wife.

Or I would put contradictory pairs of verses...

Too much biblical material to quote from, yessir.

[Safe-Keeper]

"Bible says you are dumb if you don't believe what the bible says."It's insults by proxy, isn't it? Akin to little kids informing you that their invisible friends think you smell.
The irony of their response is amazing. Isn't it, though?

[Roma]

I'm a Christian and I think this choice is really stupid, why would those nuts think that further alientaing non-believers is going to have a positve affect. :boggled:

[Safe-Keeper]

They post ads linking to web sites saying we're going to burn in Hell.
We post ads telling people to stop being so stuck-up and enjoy their lives.
They post ads calling us fools.

Yes, there's an irony.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I'm a Christian and I think this choice is really stupid, why would those nuts think that further alientaing non-believers is going to have a positve affect. :boggled:

Maybe you should define "positive effect"? I think it may well have a positive one -- but then I'm an atheist. :D

[linusrichard]

Matt. 5:22 -- And whosoever shall say, "Thou Fool," shall be in danger of hell fire.

They almost make it too easy.

[grayman]

And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once at the number three, being the third number be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."

[Roma]

By positive affect I meant a reduction in the alienation Atheists feel from theists. I hope you didn't think I meant conversion to Christianity, with a bus ad like that I think the last thing anyone would want to do is join the idiots who put it up.
However, the ad the Atheists put up is what I refer to as "Christian baiting".

[slingblade]

By positive affect I meant a reduction in the alienation Atheists feel from theists. I hope you didn't think I meant conversion to Christianity, with a bus ad like that I think the last thing anyone would want to do is join the idiots who put it up.
However, the ad the Atheists put up is what I refer to as "Christian baiting".

You aren't the only ones who believe in gods.

Why would you think you were specifically and singularly being addressed?

[Roma]

You aren't the only ones who believe in gods.

Why would you think you were specifically and singularly being addressed?
I was responding to Gord in Toronto's 9:54pm reply to my 7:09pm post where I said "a positive affect" and he replied to me with this question: "maybe you should define a positive effect". That's why I believed I was specifically and singularly being addressed.

I don't believe that I have ever said that I am the only one who believes in Gods. Where did you read that?

[Hokulele]

I don't believe that I have ever said that I am the only one who believes in Gods. Where did you read that?


Although slingblade is perfectly capable of answering for herself, you referred to the ads as "Christian bashing". Why not refer to it as "Islam bashing" or even "Asatru bashing"?

[Roma]

Slingblade, did you mean why did I think that the Atheist ad was directed only at Christians?
Of course other religions worship their own gods and there is nothing in the Atheist's ad saying that it is directed at Christians so is that your point?
I would say that it is a valid point except for the history of long bitter alienation between the Christians and Atheists. So no one was surprised at all when the Christians countered with their own ad.

[Hokulele]

And again, there isn't a long, bitter history between atheists and other religions? I would say Islam is even rougher on non-believers than Christianity.

[Roma]

How are the Atheists treated worse than Christians by the Islamists?
A person can be killed simply for being in the possession of a Christian Bible in an Islamic country.What fate does an Atheist fear?

[Hokulele]

How are the Atheists treated worse than Christians by the Islamists?


The Qur'an states that it is possible for a Muslim to be friends with Jews and Christians. Atheists? Not so much.

A person can be killed simply for being in the possession of a Christian Bible in an Islamic country.What fate does an Atheist fear?


Please list the laws that state this. Please also search the same set of statutes for what should be done with an "unbeliever".

[slingblade]

Yes, Roma, I quibbled with your saying it was "Christian bashing."


Edit: Sorry, you said "baiting." Hoku said "bashing." But Hoku's a weiner. It's established.

I'm not attacking you, by the way. I'm pointing out that Christianity is one of the targets, not the only one or the chief one. To see it the way you put it is to make martyrs. Not real keen on martyrs.

[slingblade]

How are the Atheists treated worse than Christians by the Islamists?
A person can be killed simply for being in the possession of a Christian Bible in an Islamic country.What fate does an Atheist fear?

Anyone who doesn't follow Islam is an atheist.

[Roma]

By positive affect I meant a reduction in the alienation Atheists feel from theists. I hope you didn't think I meant conversion to Christianity,

So why am I being criticized for saying this was about Christians, when what I said was theists, a word I chose specifically because I recognized that many other religions have their own gods.

However, the ad the Atheists put up is what I refer to as "Christian baiting".

I can give you an example of "Christian baiting": go the JREF Forum site "name you favorite bible verses" and read a little of what is said by the posters. I know that I am not the only Christian member here, but the others appear to be wary of posting anything on those types of sites because of the ridicule they will sometimes face from the Atheists.

Which is why I said that I didn't think the latest Christian bus ad was going to have a positive affect on the alienation between the Atheists and theists, something that I wish would happen.

[UnrepentantSinner]

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

But the wise man not only says it aloud he knows that the heart cannot think nor speak.

----------------------
Roma, you have to be really careful around the OAs here. They can be rather unhospitable to people who don't share their myopic weltanschauung.

[slingblade]

So why am I being criticized for saying this was about Christians, when what I said was theists, a word I chose specifically because I recognized that many other religions have their own gods.

Correction is not necessarily criticism. When you said:


However, the ad the Atheists put up is what I refer to as "Christian baiting".

...I asked you why you think Christians, specifically, were baited. You said they were; I just quoted you. I merely pointed out that the ad refers to any god-concept, not one in particular. It doesn't say Jehovah, or YHWH, or Christian God...just "god."

I can give you an example of "Christian baiting": go the JREF Forum site "name you favorite bible verses" and read a little of what is said by the posters. I know that I am not the only Christian member here, but the others appear to be wary of posting anything on those types of sites because of the ridicule they will sometimes face from the Atheists.

I don't post at religious forums or Christian forums. I don't go to a person's cyber residence and demand he accept my lack of belief in gods. If I did go, I'd expect to take a lot of flak for presenting claims about what I don't believe in.

That is, in no way, some sort of message from me that you don't belong here or you aren't welcome. But I do think you ought to consider where you are, and understand what you might expect, given the nature of the place.

[[ETA: Sorry, that was incredibly bossy of me. I'm working on that. Perhaps I should only suggest you consider the above. Mea culpa. :(]]


Which is why I said that I didn't think the latest Christian bus ad was going to have a positive affect on the alienation between the Atheists and theists, something that I wish would happen.

It would happen sooner, if at all, if religion would get its nose out of other people's business. I don't care if, for one example, people believe being gay is an abomination unto their god; then they shouldn't be gay and their god will be happy with them. But they don't have any business trying to make us all live as if their way is the only right way. It isn't even one of the right ways, in my opinion.

[Roma]

Slingblade, you can be bossy sometimes, and I can make a very bad joke sometimes, still sorry.
But right here we have an Atheist and a Christian getting along pretty well.
This is what we need, more comunication and no silly bus signs. :)

[Stimpson J. Cat]

A typical response, if you think about it. Somebody makes a simple claim about what he thinks is likely to be true, and the religious cannot counter with a rational or evidence-based retort. So instead, they just call the person they disagree with a "fool".


Dr. Stupid

[bruto]

I look at this in a positive light. For once, religious bickering has become economically productive: a source of revenue for underfunded public transit. These are hard times. Instead of discouraging it, we should point out to the scientologists and the Buddhists and all the rest that they're being left behind if they don't put up some ads of their own.

[nois forme]

...the ad the Atheists put up is what I refer to as "Christian baiting".

And to be fair (not that most want to do that on this particular subject!), it would be no stretch at all to say it was in fact 'Christian baiting'. You are correct. From one of the key figures that started the campaign;

"From today's launch, two hundred of the buses will run in London, because the campaign was originally started as a positive counter-response to the Jesus Said ads running on London buses in June 2008." -Ariane Sherine

It was very much a direct response to Christian ads. Let's all be clear - on 'both sides' - about why this campaign started.

[slingblade]

Slingblade, you can be bossy sometimes,

I can. I sowwy.


But right here we have an Atheist and a Christian getting along pretty well.
This is what we need, more comunication and no silly bus signs. :)

:D Yeah, but I'm not trying to tell you to be an atheist, and you aren't trying to save mah soul. Works better that way.

[slingblade]

And to be fair (not that most want to do that on this particular subject!), it would be no stretch at all to say it was in fact 'Christian baiting'. You are correct. From one of the key figures that started the campaign;

"From today's launch, two hundred of the buses will run in London, because the campaign was originally started as a positive counter-response to the Jesus Said ads running on London buses in June 2008." -Ariane Sherine

It was very much a direct response to Christian ads. Let's all be clear - on 'both sides' - about why this campaign started.

I was missing that info.

I retract.

[RedSeaRoadkill]

Reminds me of my favorite Emo Philips quote:

"I used to think the brain is the most important organ in the body....then I realized it was my brain telling me that."

[Toke]

I am still mad that there were no atheist adverts in arabic or farsi.

[linusrichard]

I am still mad that there were no atheist adverts in arabic or farsi.

I would wager as many (or more) British Muslims speak English as (or than) Arabic or Farsi.

I think it's practically indisputable that more British theists speak English than Arabic or Farsi.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I can only quote Mencken on what he thought about religious beliefs having a special exemption from rational thinking:

Mencken on respect for religious views.

One of the most irrational of all the conventions of modern society is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected. ... [This] convention protects them, and so they proceed with their blather unwhipped and almost unmolested, to the great damage of common sense and common decency. that they should have this immunity is an outrage. There is nothing in religious ideas, as a class, to lift them above other ideas. On the contrary, they are always dubious and often quite silly. Nor is there any visible intellectual dignity in theologians. Few of them know anything that is worth knowing, and not many of them are even honest.

The most curious social convention of the great age in which we live is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected. We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.

Critical note: Of a piece with the absurd pedagogical demand for so-called constructive criticism is the doctrine that an iconoclast is a hollow and evil fellow unless he can prove his case. Why, indeed, should he prove it? Is he judge, jury, prosecuting officer, hangman? He proves enough, indeed, when he proves by his blasphemy that this or that idol is defectively convincing -- that at least one visitor to the shrine is left full of doubts. The fact is enormously significant; it indicates that instinct has somehow risen superior to the shallowness of logic, the refuge of fools. The pedant and the priest have always been the most expert of logicians -- and the most diligent disseminators of nonsense and worse. The liberation of the human mind has never been furthered by such learned dunderheads; it has been furthered by gay fellows who heaved dead cats into sanctuaries and then went roistering down the highways of the world, proving to all men that doubt, after all, was safe -- that the god in the sanctuary was finite in his power, and hence a fraud. One horse-laugh is worth ten thousand syllogisms. It is not only more effective; it is also vastly more intelligent. -- The American Mercury. p.75

EXACTLY!

[articulett]

This slogan is fine with me, and it will work well for the faithful. With faith, if you repeat something often enough and really, truly, believe it--it's "true".

I guess they don't realize that we don't take quotes in their magic book any more seriously than quotes in the Quo'ran or Dianetics or our daily horoscope.

It's a rather primitive meme--reminds me of Santa and chain letters: Believe and spread the word and good things will happen; bad things happen to those who doubt. It's a shame that so many adults haven't outgrown the ability to be manipulated by and manipulate others through such things. I think I'd be embarrassed to be part of a group endorsing such smarminess.

[SirPhilip]

Slingblade, you can be bossy sometimes, and I can make a very bad joke sometimes, still sorry. But right here we have an Atheist and a Christian getting along pretty well. This is what we need, more comunication and no silly bus signs. :) Think of this place as a modern realization of two Greek institutions: the forum and gladiator training ground. As soon as you step up, you are assumed to want to prove something. When this happens, and it frequently doesn't, parrying, lunging and circling ensue.

[fuelair]

Yes, Roma, I quibbled with your saying it was "Christian bashing."


Edit: Sorry, you said "baiting." Hoku said "bashing." But Hoku's a weiner. It's established.

I'm not attacking you, by the way. I'm pointing out that Christianity is one of the targets, not the only one or the chief one. To see it the way you put it is to make martyrs. Not real keen on martyrs.
Actually, they are very tasty toasted with a bit of butter and jam!!

[SirPhilip]

This slogan is fine with me, and it will work well for the faithful. With faith, if you repeat something often enough and really, truly, believe it--it's "true". I guess they don't realize that we don't take quotes in their magic book any more seriously than quotes in the Quo'ran or Dianetics or our daily horoscope. It's a rather primitive meme--reminds me of Santa and chain letters: Believe and spread the word and good things will happen; bad things happen to those who doubt. It's a shame that so many adults haven't outgrown the ability to be manipulated by and manipulate others through such things. I think I'd be embarrassed to be part of a group endorsing such smarminess. Ah, madam Articulett. Of the people here I sympathize most - something about a frustrated and burnt out science teacher tugs at the heart. Nature forces biological life to act rationally - the smart don't actually suffer the most. Peruse the hot chocolate instead of coffee machine today, and give that overactive mind a rest it richly deserves, and students something to think about..

[Hokulele]

Edit: Sorry, you said "baiting." Hoku said "bashing." But Hoku's a weiner. It's established.


Whoopsie. Sorry.

*Needs new glasses*

I'm not attacking you, by the way. I'm pointing out that Christianity is one of the targets, not the only one or the chief one. To see it the way you put it is to make martyrs. Not real keen on martyrs.


Absolutely.

[articulett]

Actually, they are very tasty toasted with a bit of butter and jam!!

I like them young and sprinkled with (or better yet--marinated in) baptismal water. Delish!

[Silentknight]

Not this again.

One of the things I'm absolutely sick of hearing is when evangelists, apologists, and stupid kids possessing only two brain cells and a Bible dredge out that tired old quote from Psalm 14:1 as if it's actually a valid argument against atheism:

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."

Unfortunately for them, I can safely assert that anyone who uses the verse this way is scripturally illiterate. Here's some context to explain what I mean.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter

First of all, this verse alone was never intended to be a definition of the "fool" and was meant to be read along with vv. 2 and 3 as a characterization of the wicked. Now that the empirical meaning is out of the way, consider who exactly this chapter is referring to. The part about "no God" here was meant to describe a practical atheism which is not the same as skeptical atheism no matter how one tries to distort it. Practical atheism refers to people who already believe in God but are angry with him and thus rebelling against him for whatever reason, whereas skeptical atheism refers to those who do not believe in God at all.

Remember that from the point of view of the psalmists, mankind in general is corrupt. Here, the reference is to those who take no account of God in their actions, and who show malice towards the righteous. This includes believers. To further, the psalmists later included themselves among those who are not righteous. See 130:3 and 143:2 for examples.

Once again they've stuck their foot in their mouth, which is hardly surprising given that their flexibility usually facilitates kissing their own ass.

[Beerina]

The irony of their response is amazing.

Argument from moral intimidation tends to work very well. And not just for hokey religions and ancient weapons, kid. Modern "Political Correctness" uses it heavily, too.

[bruto]

Not this again.

One of the things I'm absolutely sick of hearing is when evangelists, apologists, and stupid kids possessing only two brain cells and a Bible dredge out that tired old quote from Psalm 14:1 as if it's actually a valid argument against atheism:

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."

Unfortunately for them, I can safely assert that anyone who uses the verse this way is scripturally illiterate. Here's some context to explain what I mean.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter

First of all, this verse alone was never intended to be a definition of the "fool" and was meant to be read along with vv. 2 and 3 as a characterization of the wicked. Now that the empirical meaning is out of the way, consider who exactly this chapter is referring to. The part about "no God" here was meant to describe a practical atheism which is not the same as skeptical atheism no matter how one tries to distort it. Practical atheism refers to people who already believe in God but are angry with him and thus rebelling against him for whatever reason, whereas skeptical atheism refers to those who do not believe in God at all.

Remember that from the point of view of the psalmists, mankind in general is corrupt. Here, the reference is to those who take no account of God in their actions, and who show malice towards the righteous. This includes believers. To further, the psalmists later included themselves among those who are not righteous. See 130:3 and 143:2 for examples.

Once again they've stuck their foot in their mouth, which is hardly surprising given that their flexibility usually facilitates kissing their own ass.

True enough, all of it, but it seems (browse some Yrreg or DOC threads here, for example) that to some theists all atheism is practical. It is just beyond them that there is a real difference between not believing that any god exists and turning one's back on God. It's as if, once anyone has ever heard the word "god," the subject has sprung into existence, and the only form of rejection left is to spit in his eye.

[Piero]

[QUOTE=Roma Hart;4407929] I know that I am not the only Christian member here, but the others appear to be wary of posting anything on those types of sites because of the ridicule they will sometimes face from the Atheists./QUOTE]

I cannot understand why you should be afraid of being ridiculed. If I joined a believers' forum (I've been unable to, because most of them forbid atheists) I would perhaps be afraid of not making my arguments cogent enough, but never of being ridiculed. One of my co-workers recently asked me to please stop making fun of her religion (she is a Catholic). I was rather taken aback: I care very much about her, because she is a really nice woman. Yet I could not accept her request. I replied "If you have sound arguments for your faith, then you should try to convince me, instead of asking me to be polite."
Is that a sign of a fundamental insecurity? Do believers deep down know that their beliefs are ludicrous?

[articulett]

Yes--they've been told that "faith" should be respected. I don't think faith needs to be respected any more than any other superstition.

We have lots of theists here of various stripes. This is not the place for someone who is insecure about having their beliefs challenged--it will just cause you to hear things that people are not saying to avoid having to understand exactly what they are saying: they find your heartfelt beliefs as ridiculous as you find all the superstitions you don't "believe in".

[Safe-Keeper]

I cannot understand why you should be afraid of being ridiculed.You cannot? Atheists routinely ridicule theists and theism on these forums, so I find this comment pretty odd.

One of my co-workers recently asked me to please stop making fun of her religion (she is a Catholic). I was rather taken aback: I care very much about her, because she is a really nice woman. Yet I could not accept her request.Sounds strange to me. I have a good friend who's a devout Christian and I value our friendship far more than my jokes. I don't discuss religion with her, and if she said not to make religious jokes in her presence, I wouldn't.

It's not about 'insecurity' or 'religions not deserving respect'. It's about simple courtesy for people you care about.

[Piero]

You cannot? Atheists routinely ridicule theists and theism on these forums, so I find this comment pretty odd.

Sounds strange to me. I have a good friend who's a devout Christian and I value our friendship far more than my jokes. I don't discuss religion with her, and if she said not to make religious jokes in her presence, I wouldn't.

It's not about 'insecurity' or 'religions not deserving respect'. It's about simple courtesy for people you care about.

It's not odd at all, in my view. If I present what I believe to be a sound argument, I would never worry about its being "ridiculed". Rebutted, maybe; but ridiculed? Nope.
I've never come across any theist argument that ridicules atheism. Usually they are sort of grim: "I'm sorry for you, you'll burn in hell", or "How can you not appreciate the magnificence of God's presence? Have you no feelings?" But never something like "Yeah, right. You and your childish atheist fantasies!"

I agree with your second point. In fact, I never joke about religion. But once I asked this woman whether she believed in transubstantiation. She said she did. I asked her how can an educated, smart person believe such nonsense. She took offence. But she did not offer any reasonable arguments for her belief. Is that courteous on her part? In fact, she was just telling me "I believe what I believe, and you can just shut up".

[articulett]

I agree. Creationists ridicule evolution, but why would I be offended? The facts don't care whether you "believe in" them or not.

[Safe-Keeper]

I agree. Creationists ridicule evolution, but why would I be offended? But we're not talking about something you don't care enough about to stand jokes and ridicule about it. We're talking about things that you do care that much about. Every single one of us has sore spots, arti. If I made a joke that hurt your feelings and you told me you'd rather I didn't make such jokes... I'd comply.

[articulett]

That's why I think people should keep personal beliefs private or amongst fellow believers.

I think feelings get hurt as a defense... people "need" others to believe to prop up their own beliefs. I wouldn't purposefully make jokes, but I don't want to be compelled to show deference to something that I think is on par with a superstition. I don't think it's healthy for society to "respect" faith unless it shows evidence worthy of respecting.

I don't want to have to walk on eggshells so as not to offend peoples feelings who don't even wonder whether I have feelings. I agree that people have sore spots. I just don't think they should keep such things private if they don't want people commenting on them.

I think that I treat all beliefs similar to the way others treat believers in concepts they don't share--similar to the way they treat me and my feelings/opinions and similar to the way I'd like to have been treated as a believer. I don't want to encourage belief, but I also don't want to be manipulated into propping up other peoples' delusions. That's why I like posting here. I'd prefer it if people just kept their beliefs to themselves if they are worried about what I might say or think of them.

I tend not to speak about my skepticism or lack of belief in public or mixed company--not so much for worrying about peoples' feelings-- but mostly because believers tend to vilify those who threaten their faith so as not to have to consider a belief that challenges them. They will hear me saying other than what I am saying so as not to realize that I feel the same way about their beliefs that they might feel towards, say, Scientology. I think religious beliefs are all goofy and embarrassing the way Scientology is goofy and embarrassing.

[bobcarp]

Matt. 5:22 -- And whosoever shall say, "Thou Fool," shall be in danger of hell fire.

They almost make it too easy.



Matthew 5:22 "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."


Raca?

[Chupacabras]

Raca?

Radio Atheist Corporation of America?

[bruto]

Matthew 5:22 "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."


Raca?From what I've heard, it's more or less "you worthless bum!" It's interesting that it's less of a sin to call someone a scumbag than an idiot.

[Tricky]

I often quote The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (http://www.everypoet.com/archive/poetry/Omar_Khayyam/omar_khayyam_rubaiyat.htm)whenever people toss scripture at me. It reads a bit like scripture and has even better impact.

XXIV:
Ah, make the most of what we yet may spend,
Before we too into the Dust descend;
Dust into Dust, and under Dust to lie,
Sans Wine, sans Song, sans Singer, and--sans End!

XXXV:
Then to the Lip of this poor earthen Urn
I lean'd, the Secret of my Life to learn:
And Lip to Lip it murmur'd--"While you live,
"Drink!--for, once dead, you never shall return."


XLVIII. A Moment's Halt--a momentary taste
Of BEING from the Well amid the Waste--
And Lo!--the phantom Caravan has reach'd
The NOTHING it set out from--Oh, make haste!
LXIII:
Of threats of Hell and Hopes of Paradise!
One thing at least is certain--This Life flies;
One thing is certain and the rest is Lies;
The Flower that once has blown for ever dies.


LXVI:
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell:
And by and by my Soul return'd to me,
And answer'd "I Myself am Heav'n and Hell:"

LXXX:
Oh Thou, who didst with pitfall and with gin
Beset the Road I was to wander in,
Thou wilt not with Predestined Evil round
Enmesh, and then impute my Fall to Sin!

LXVIII
"Why," said another, "Some there are who tell
Of one who threatens he will toss to Hell
The luckless Pots he marr'd in making--Pish!
He's a Good Fellow, and 'twill all be well."

[Louisthe13th]

In our local paper (Helena, MT) today their was an article about the new christian bus signs.

The best part?

In the article they didn't show the busses with the new signs, they showed a picture of Mr. Dawkins with one of the atheist bus signs in the background! How cool is that!

Darn, cant post the picture yet.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I often quote The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (http://www.everypoet.com/archive/poetry/Omar_Khayyam/omar_khayyam_rubaiyat.htm)whenever people toss scripture at me. It reads a bit like scripture and has even better impact.

Ah. "But who's the potter? And who's the pot?" ;)

[Tricky]

Ah. "But who's the potter? And who's the pot?" ;)
Shut up, ya' damn Sufi.:p

[Tricky]

In our local paper (Helena, MT) today their was an article about the new christian bus signs.

The best part?

In the article they didn't show the busses with the new signs, they showed a picture of Mr. Dawkins with one of the atheist bus signs in the background! How cool is that!

Darn, cant post the picture yet.
Here ya go. (http://www.helenair.com/articles/2009/02/07/national/107na_090207_bus.txt)
http://www.helenair.com/content/articles/2009/02/07/national/107na_090207_bus.jpg

[articulett]

The color theme reminds me of Dunkin' Donuts.

http://basementapartment.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/dunkindonuts.jpg

[Lord Muck oGentry]

If we are to brandish texts at the believers, there's a good 'un from Karl Barth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Barth

"Belief cannot argue with unbelief, it can only preach to it."

Indeed.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Shut up, ya' damn Sufi.:p

:p back to you! From Mr. FitzGerald.

[The Nimble Pianist]

Risking the derailing of this thread, I'd like to ask something specific about the Psalm cited in this ad.

I have been told (casually) by three theologians that the word "fool" is improperly translated from the original Hebrew. I've been told that the original pejorative originally hoisted against atheists was something closer to "one with poor ethics" or a "charlatan", indicating that the "individuals are inherently immoral without God" motif is much older than one would assume.

I've had neither the interest to investigate this further nor the necessary resources (as I can't read Hebrew and don't have access to any of the ancient manuscripts), but this thread prompted me to wonder.

Are there any theologians among us or laymen who know a thing or two about this?

Is the position that these two theologians with whom I've spoken the general consensus or merely a rogue theory?

[The Nimble Pianist]

Not this again.

One of the things I'm absolutely sick of hearing is when evangelists, apologists, and stupid kids possessing only two brain cells and a Bible dredge out that tired old quote from Psalm 14:1 as if it's actually a valid argument against atheism:

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."

Unfortunately for them, I can safely assert that anyone who uses the verse this way is scripturally illiterate. Here's some context to explain what I mean.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter

First of all, this verse alone was never intended to be a definition of the "fool" and was meant to be read along with vv. 2 and 3 as a characterization of the wicked. Now that the empirical meaning is out of the way, consider who exactly this chapter is referring to. The part about "no God" here was meant to describe a practical atheism which is not the same as skeptical atheism no matter how one tries to distort it. Practical atheism refers to people who already believe in God but are angry with him and thus rebelling against him for whatever reason, whereas skeptical atheism refers to those who do not believe in God at all.

Remember that from the point of view of the psalmists, mankind in general is corrupt. Here, the reference is to those who take no account of God in their actions, and who show malice towards the righteous. This includes believers. To further, the psalmists later included themselves among those who are not righteous. See 130:3 and 143:2 for examples.

Once again they've stuck their foot in their mouth, which is hardly surprising given that their flexibility usually facilitates kissing their own ass.

Ah, so the theologians were correct (or at least their assessment is not as unique as I originally had surmised).

I guess this teaches me to read the entire 2 page thread before posting :blush:

[TX50]

Some of the "counter slogans" being used by other groups read like the titles
of JRF forum parody threads:


The Christian Party:

"There definitely is a God. So join the Christian Party and enjoy your life"

Rusian Orthodox church:

"There is a God. Believe, don't worry and enjoy your life"

[Louisthe13th]

[QUOTE=Tricky;4415499Here ya go/QUOTE]

Thanks Tricky!

[articulett]

Some of the "counter slogans" being used by other groups read like the titles
of JRF forum parody threads:


The Christian Party:

"There definitely is a God. So join the Christian Party and enjoy your life"

Rusian Orthodox church:

"There is a God. Believe, don't worry and enjoy your life"

Reality: It doesn't need to be "believed in" to be true.

Faith: Never known to lead to any verifiable truth--ever!

Souls: Eons of belief and still not an iota of evidence!

But as long as believers are spending their money on bus advertising rather than trodding upon the civil rights of others, then I suppose it's a lesser evil. I imagine it will be about as effective as this:

Scientology: Because trillions of Thetans can't be wrong!

Ramtha: You know you were drawn to this sign for a reason!

Reincarnation: We're all "born again"!

(Say, I think I have a knack for this...)

[Darat]

Just noticed my local church's new sign, which I'm assuming has been inspired by the "atheist bus" slogan:

God Loves U so don't worry - Enjoy your life!

[Toke]

It does not beat the banner on one church in Copenhagen.

"Open on sundays"

[Gord_in_Toronto]

It does not beat the banner on one church in Copenhagen.

"Open on sundays"

Shouldn't they be resting? :duck:

[Toke]

Shouldn't they be resting? :duck:

:dl:

My aunt is a priest, she claim they have to work on sundays and that it is perfectly alright.