British Police Accept Psychic Help!

[Kimpatsu]

According to this BBC article, (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/3262349.stm) the police in Manchester have reopened a missing person case after being contacted by a psychic who claimed she had received psychic info as to where this missing man was. Presumably, she contacted the police by more prosaic means than a telephone... :rolleyes:

[Small Town Jesus]

It always strikes me as quite useful for the police to listen to any 'psychics' who volunteer information in such cases.
After all, if anything they say turns out to be true then you have your prime suspect right there! :p

STJ

[Rolfe]

Officers said they felt they had to act because if they had not and Mr Derrick's body was in the area, they "would not be able to forgive themselves".It's understandable. And if Mr. Derrick's body is there, I won't be able to stop suspecting the psychic either!

Rolfe.

[renata]

Could be many reasons police is doing the search
-maybe they think the psychic is genuine
-maybe they are at a dead end, and the family would not forgive them if they did not explore every opportunity, no matter how hopeless
-maybe they think the psychic is a suspect
-maybe they suspect the psychic knows something through other means but is afraid to say so, and is couching the information in psychic vision to protect the informant/culprit
-maybe they know the psychic got the information about the whereabouts through normals means.

Perhaps Stumpy or Hannibal can fill us in on procedures?

If something is discovered, would evidence that might be discovered through psychic means be admissable in court? What happens if the psychic is wrong? Is there any punishment in wasting police time/resources?

I keep thinking about the Elizabeth Smart case, and the thousands of other missing children cases. I know I posted this article before, but it is so startling and relevant to why police follows up on psychic tips, I will do it again.

http://kutv.com/related/local_story_318170333.html

Police and family alike continue to be inundated by calls from psychics. Ed Smart's exasperation showed when he said hundreds of thousands of psychics have reported in; Lyman said close to 600 psychics have contacted police, all with different dreams.

It would be tempting to ignore them. But even the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children warns against disregard, because psychics' purported dreams or visions may be a truth told by someone unwilling or afraid to get involved directly.

And though the same experts claim no missing child has ever been recovered with psychic information, Elizabeth Smart's family and investigators are bound to check out each one.

That's why, a week ago, Elizabeth's uncles Tom and Dave Smart walked along desolate railroad tracks near the town of Lark, long abandoned to the poisonous remains of Bingham Canyon copper mining west of Salt Lake City.

A psychic had told them Elizabeth's body lay near those tracks.


Ghouls. And yet they cannot be ignored, by police, or by the family.

Makes one wonder why the high profile mediums who are OK with bringing dogs and and neighbors through, and make millions in their rightous life to comfort the grieving don't try and locate missing children...but that is another story.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by renata
Could be many reasons police is doing the search
-maybe they think the psychic is genuine

If so, then they are fools.
Originally posted by renata
-maybe they are at a dead end, and the family would not forgive them if they did not explore every opportunity, no matter how hopeless
Then they are wasting police resources to appease a single family.
Originally posted by renata
-maybe they think the psychic is a suspect
Then they would arrest her, not accept her help.
Originally posted by renata
-maybe they suspect the psychic knows something through other means but is afraid to say so, and is couching the information in psychic vision to protect the informant/culprit
Then again, they would arrest and interrogate her. (It is a crime to withold information that may help the polcie in their inquiries.)
Originally posted by renata
-maybe they know the psychic got the information about the whereabouts through normals means.
Then again, the police should interrogate as to such means.
Any way you slice it, accepting the "psychic's" help is foolish. Personally, I think it's likely reason 1: They believe the self-professed psychic is genuine. They have taken her at her word, without testing. If their critical thinking skills are so lacking, it doesn't bode well for their detection rates in solving crime.

[Aussie Thinker]

I often wonder about why police would bother but think about this…

Physics are a pretty clever bunch.. they are constantly looking for their next scam or “proof” of their powers. It is CONCEIVABLE that they can come up with a good theory or do some research into a case and may add some relevant information.

The downside is if they get it right it gives credence to their bogus powers.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
I often wonder about why police would bother but think about this…

Physics are a pretty clever bunch.. they are constantly looking for their next scam or “proof” of their powers. It is CONCEIVABLE that they can come up with a good theory or do some research into a case and may add some relevant information.

The downside is if they get it right it gives credence to their bogus powers.
Which is why the police should thoroughly investigate the background of the "psychic", but here they appear to have rushed headlong into this nonsense.
BTW, I think you mean "psychics", not "physics".
Best,

[Zep]

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought they were going to use a psychic to find out in advance what is in their Christmas presents!

[Aussie Thinker]

Kim…

Freudian slip ?? Physics is actually something real.. Psychics are just ********..

The honest answer.. I misspelled Psychic and then just accepted Microsoft’s first option on the spellchecker… shows they at least don’t default to the paranormal !

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
The honest answer.. I misspelled Psychic and then just accepted Microsoft’s first option on the spellchecker… shows they at least don’t default to the paranormal !
Although I always thought there was something suspect about Bill Gates... :p

[alfaniner]

wtf happened to Luci? It should be jumping on this....

[renata]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu Any way you slice it, accepting the "psychic's" help is foolish. Personally, I think it's likely reason 1: They believe the self-professed psychic is genuine. They have taken her at her word, without testing. If their critical thinking skills are so lacking, it doesn't bode well for their detection rates in solving crime. [/B]

Well, we do not know what is going on behind the scenes. I am not familiar with police work, but I can construct a reasonable scenario where police is pretending to go along with what this person is saying, just to find the body, and then will clamp down on this psychic once the body is found, if they think the psychic is a suspect. If they crack down too early, the psychic will not crack, and having the body may get them some other leads. But, honestly, I just am not an expert on this. I hope Stumpy, Hannibal and other policemen weigh in on this.

[dmarker]

Originally posted by renata


Well, we do not know what is going on behind the scenes. I am not familiar with police work, but I can construct a reasonable scenario where police is pretending to go along with what this person is saying, just to find the body, and then will clamp down on this psychic once the body is found, if they think the psychic is a suspect. If they crack down too early, the psychic will not crack, and having the body may get them some other leads. But, honestly, I just am not an expert on this. I hope Stumpy, Hannibal and other policemen weigh in on this.

I'm not a policeman, but I've heard of these cases. The police will go along with the "vision" until the "psychic" gives away evidence that hasn't been revealed to the press. And there's always something held back from the press to weed out the cranks who like to make false confessions.

[Hannibal]

In cases where information is provided from ANY source (psychic or otherwise) we are duty bound to pursue all reasonable lines of enquiry.

In this instance if the psychic says the missing person is "in a warehouse near Ancoats" then it would result in a quick check of the areas in Ancoats that have warehouses. The scale of this would be low, maybe one DC or PC depending on the case. If they had said "X is in Austrailia near a sheep" then the follow up would have been nil - too wide a scope you see. And you are right, the psychic would be seen as someone who does not wish to name conventional sources, a suspect or a wacko.

Psychics are NOT credible sources of infromation and NOT admissable as court evidence. No magistrate or judge would EVER swear a warrant out based purely on psychic information. In cases like this missing person there is no crime per se so the same rules do not apply. It is treated as an anonymous tip.

For the record, and I may be repeating myself here, POLICE DO NOT USE PSYCHICS...psychics contact the police in the same way that members of the public, junkies, weirdos and any other number of the rich tapestry of the community do.

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

42!

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Hannibal
For the record, and I may be repeating myself here, POLICE DO NOT USE PSYCHICS...
So the article is a load of rubbish, in fact? That could well be true; it's just that in reading it, the spin seems to be that a "psychic" contacted the police, who took her at face value and are genuinely using her "powers" (sic) to advance their inquiries.
But I've challenged BBC credulity before.

[nick]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Although I always thought there was something suspect about Bill Gates... :p

I am no fan of Bill's products, but at least he doesn't have much time for religion: http://www.sikhspectrum.com/102002/ron.htm

[Vitnir]

I have started to read a book "The blue sense", fairly interesting. According to the book police does use psychics, they are after all not all superhuman sceptics. They get frustrated and clutch for straws like any other person. They want to be able to tell themselves that they did everything possible, they even brought in a psychic. They may be inexperienced in a small town and take any help they can get. Their memory isn't that much better than others so after a case they might think the psychic contributed more than he did, he can be misquoted in the press so an endorsement may not be all that true. There are so many factors in psychic detectives you don't really know how to tackle a news item like this.

The media has an integral part in this also, favourable results from the use of psychic detectives follow the story telling blueprint where justice prevails over evil so any positive results will get publicity while a negative result is a non-story.

[Stumpy]

I think that we can chalk this one up as yet another failure for the psychics :rolleyes:

My perspective is that the Police action could only have gone ahead with a senior officer. From that senior officer's point of view what did he/she have to loose by following up on the info? At worst the enquiry would still be in the same postion it was before - but the officer would be able to highlight the action to the missing persons family which would doubtless have comforted them to realize that the Police had not given up. From a PR and humane point of view it's hard to argue that the Police did the wrong thing by listening to the "psychic".

I think part of the problem is that UK Police forces do not and have never collated and analysed the data given to them by psychics in terms of how effective they they have been. I can state with some confidence that psychics regularly contact Police during major enquiries, I am not aware of a single case where the information given has proven useful in making an arrest or conviction. Even if UK Law Enforcement did analyse the effectiveness of Psychics in crime enquiries and concluded that they were no use whatsoever, I suspect that our guidelines wouldn't change. i.e we would still be obliged to listen to their information and act on it where appropriate - this applies to anyone contacting the police, even if they claimed to be a hobbit from middle earth we are still duty bound to record their information.

A trawl round the UK-based psychic personal websites shows that it is almost standard practice for these people claim having "helped" the Police during a murder or kidnapping investigation. For the astonishing amount of claims made, the supporting evidence in respect of their effectiveness is....ummm NIL!

regards

Stumpy

[nick]

Anyone who expects the police to behave rationally 100% of the time just needs to pick up their newspaper (in any country, state, or other jurisdiction) and read about the cases where the police not only didn't know who did a particular crime, not only fabricated evidence to make their case stronger against someone who they think probably committed the crime, but in some cases, fabricated evidence and perjured themselves to get a conviction against someone whom they must have known could not possibly have committed the crime.

I think I'd rather be arrested by a cop who believed in psychics (to get leads, but otherwise checked the evidence) than one who fell into the above category. But I suppose there must be some who think "he must be guilty, he matched the profile which the psychic gave us, and he's destroyed the evidence using his super witchcraft powers" :(

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by nick
Anyone who expects the police to behave rationally 100% of the time just needs to pick up their newspaper (in any country, state, or other jurisdiction) and read about the cases where the police not only didn't know who did a particular crime, not only fabricated evidence to make their case stronger against someone who they think probably committed the crime, but in some cases, fabricated evidence and perjured themselves to get a conviction against someone whom they must have known could not possibly have committed the crime.
No, Nick, we don't expect the police to behave rationally; we just want them to.

[nick]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

No, Nick, we don't expect the police to behave rationally; we just want them to.

Agreed. But if they won't do it for "serious" stuff (where they know that they will actively hurt people), they won't do it for "psychic" stuff, where they probably don't think any harm can come of it.

Yes, I know about the wasted time, energy, professional time, anguish for the families, better leads not followed up, etc, and so do you, but most police forces don't take a "systems approach" to this kind of thing, and if they did, I'm not sure what percentage of cops would "get it". For very good reasons, we hire cops for their strengths in other areas...

[Hannibal]

The headline "Police use psychic" is incorrect - "Psychic gives information to Police which they then check out" would be more appropriate. A lot, in fact I suggest all, of what is reported as "Police Psychic" activity is "man bites dog". If the info given had been complete tosh then the person would be classed as "loony". Because there is occasionally a very sketchy hit they are "psychic".

I was chatting about this to a colleague today who was contacted by a psychic (or "-cho" if you believe him). She ave him the usual fairground fortune telling before tellinghim she was the witness to a criminal damage to a wall. He said "When?" and she replied "Tomorrow at three"........

Obviously nothing happened so it was not a story!

Intelligence is usually written down (or typed on e-mail) and then sent to the intelligence unit with a grading given by the reporting officer. This is then collated, filed and used for planning operations. In the case of a specific incident the info will go to the investigating officer. This varies between forces in the UK but is a pretty fair summary. I personally have information that comes to me from numerous sources that include teenagers, drunks and drug addicts. Some is reliable, some is not. The point is I don't expect to see "Police use wasted dope-fiends and kids to tackle case" as a headline in the newspaper. It is simply procedure.

Oh and Nick and Kimpatsu, if you are in Manchester and I stop you then I'll show you how nice a cop can be!;) :D

[LTC8K6]

It should be "Psychic uses police".

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Hannibal
Oh and Nick and Kimpatsu, if you are in Manchester and I stop you then I'll show you how nice a cop can be!;) :D
You'll lock us in the cells and beat us with rubber truncheons? :p :D
Seriously, I'll be in Liverpool next year; not far. (40 mins. by train.)

[De_Bunk]

The police are only intersted in this "Medium" as a suspect...

They wouldnt arrest anyone until they gathered enough evidence...

Maybe behind this "Mediums" back they are secretly gathering information on where they were, who they know...etc...

Just to see...

The "Wouldnt forgive ourselves" is just a ploy to keep the "Medium" in a false sense of security....

Its a well known fact that murderers, occasionally, when their crime seems to be going unoticed, will attempt to gain some kind of recognition...

Thats the only reason...

The medium has given them just enough information...not enough for an arrest to be made....but just enough to make them suspicious...and to keep this medium's whereabouts known to them at all times..

Thats the only reason...

DB

[Dragon]

Originally posted by Hannibal
The headline "Police use psychic" is incorrect - "Psychic gives information to Police which they then check out" would be more appropriate. A lot, in fact I suggest all, of what is reported as "Police Psychic" activity is "man bites dog". If the info given had been complete tosh then the person would be classed as "loony". Because there is occasionally a very sketchy hit they are "psychic".

I was chatting about this to a colleague today who was contacted by a psychic (or "-cho" if you believe him). She ave him the usual fairground fortune telling before tellinghim she was the witness to a criminal damage to a wall. He said "When?" and she replied "Tomorrow at three"........

Obviously nothing happened so it was not a story!

Intelligence is usually written down (or typed on e-mail) and then sent to the intelligence unit with a grading given by the reporting officer. This is then collated, filed and used for planning operations. In the case of a specific incident the info will go to the investigating officer. This varies between forces in the UK but is a pretty fair summary. I personally have information that comes to me from numerous sources that include teenagers, drunks and drug addicts. Some is reliable, some is not. The point is I don't expect to see "Police use wasted dope-fiends and kids to tackle case" as a headline in the newspaper. It is simply procedure.

Oh and Nick and Kimpatsu, if you are in Manchester and I stop you then I'll show you how nice a cop can be!;) :D Exactly. Anything more is just wishful thinking or media spin. Those new to this topic might like to take a look at this thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26590&highlight=poole) where Montague Keen (thru' his trusty sidekick S Grenard) challenged sceptics to find a rational explanation for what a pyschic apparently told police about a murder case.