What would happen if someone won the $1M [Archive]

Rolfe

12th November 2003, 05:52 PM

It's only going to happen if we get into the territory of "any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic".

I think Randi is smart enough to exclude things which may not be paranormal. For example, I don't think he would allow proof that acupuncture has a clinical effect, because even though it's total woo-woo complete with magical explanation (energy meridians and "hot and cold winds" blowing through the body), the idea that sticking pins in someone might affect them in some way isn't completely risible. Just not supported by objective evidence. In contrast homoeopathy, which does nothing to the patient but dose them with an inert substance, is eligible. And so would reiki or radionics or therapeutic touch be eligible.

The guy who can name the piece of music on a vinyl record (within certain limits) was tested for interest, and passed, but since he didn't claim the ability was paranormal, no million bucks. If he had claimed it was paranormal, I hope Randi would have had the sense to realise that he was "just" very cleverly recognising the patterns mde by the grooves on the surface.

Rolfe.

LightPiercingDarkness

12th November 2003, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Jeff Wagg
Actually, I think it would be the BEST thing that could happen to skeptics.

If someone passed Randi's test confirming that they had a new discovery, everyone comes away a winner. They get the million, and JREF gets the (properly presented) publicity. Someone winning the challenge is not a failure for JREF...it's a very big win.

And I don't think it will ever happen.

(edited to correct a typo)

If they have their way, there will never be a winner. It would be the end of this foundation and the end of each of you posting in it.

What do you think they do, with the interest of that million? Live off of it, that is what.

Who would want to give a way a million and loose everything in the process?

That million is the pillar of this foundation, without it...there would be nothing.

Do you honestly think, they will do that? Lol.

Lyndale

Jeff Wagg

12th November 2003, 06:01 PM

While I agree it will never happen, I didn't intend to imply that Randi, or more properly JREF, would "never let go of it."

I just don't think anyone can pass the challenge.

AND, I don't think the interest on the million dollars is THAT big of a deal. I honestly believe that the money would be paid if the challenge was won, and that JREF would be stronger for it.

Dane

12th November 2003, 09:03 PM

I think it would be a great thing to happen. It seems Randi gladly accepts challenges, but he obviously has no time for silly stuff. I think if someone truly has or will have an ability that could pass this test, and they did take the test, they'd pass. I don't think Randi will make it impossible for them to pass..he's just tired of seeing the same old tactics over and over again. Like with that little girl that "sees" through the blindfold. Some people were mad at the way he handled it, but come on, if you know she's cheating, you are going to take care of it. This challenge is not about "let's see who can trick Randi", it's about who can show true proof of paranormal abilities, etc.

If someone did win this challenge, JREF would then evolve, and many new possibilities would open up. Research would skyrocket, etc etc. It couldn't be a bad thing. Randi will have no problem giving up his 1 million dollars. He just isn't going to give it away to a trickster. If he gives it away, it's going to be because someone showed they deserve it by exhibiting paranormal phenomena.

Zep

12th November 2003, 11:54 PM

Just to be clear again, the $1M is NOT Randi's personal stash-o'-cash, it is the Foundation's. If Randi should die (heaven forfend!), the challenge would still live on in its current form. So any ideas that Randi would not ever give away "his" money are wrong.

Michael Redman

13th November 2003, 07:05 AM

Originally posted by LightPiercingDarkness
If they have their way, there will never be a winner. It would be the end of this foundation and the end of each of you posting in it.No, it wouldn't.What do you think they do, with the interest of that million? Live off of it, that is what.I assume you already have done this, but if you read the information available, you'll see that this doesn't make sense. There is no stream of interest income coming to the foundation from the million.Who would want to give a way a million and loose everything in the process?It doesn't matter. They would have to give the money to any winner. In fact, the foundation would be powerless to prevent the payment of the money, which is not in the foundation's possession.That million is the pillar of this foundation, without it...there would be nothing.You obviously don't understand the purpose of the foundation.Do you honestly think, they will do that?They wouldn't have to. The party entrusted with the money would turn it over to the winner, as would be their legal duty. The foundation does not posses the money, and the foundation could not prevent the payment to a legitimate winner, whether they would want to or not.

Of course, I expect that you understand this, and are intentionally spreading misinformation.Lol.Do Mommy and Daddy know you're playing on the internet again?

The Don

13th November 2003, 07:18 AM

I guess if it showed that one element of the paranormal was possible, there's no reason to assume that any other element is.

There are people who, for example, believe that UFOs are extraterrestial visitors but are comlpetely dismissive of psychics.

Maybe we'd jsut raise another million and start again minus the one thing that was proved

komencanto

13th November 2003, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by LightPiercingDarkness
[B]

If they have their way, there will never be a winner. It would be the end of this foundation and the end of each of you posting in it.

The forum would likely continue because it costs little money to run.
The foundation would continue, because there would still be the same cash flow as before (except the interest on the $1m) and the task of rooting out people who claim supernatural abilities who don´t have them would still be a valid one.

What do you think they do, with the interest of that million? Live off of it, that is what.

I don´t know where the interest goes, but in any case it is not enough for more than 1 person to live off of.

Who would want to give a way a million and loose everything in the process?

As stated previously, they would have no choice.

[QUOTE]
That million is the pillar of this foundation, without it...there would be nothing.
[QUOTE]

The 1m dollar chalange is an important part, but the foundation existed before the million and would continue after it. Without the million, that publicity idea would be gone, but many other things including lectures and commentaries by Randi, as well as TAM and such would continue.

I don´t know what has made you this obsessive about Randi and the JREF but it is starting to creep me out.

komencanto

13th November 2003, 07:40 AM

Good point Don. Of course this is purely hypothetical and it would depend on what sort of thing is shown.

If somebody made a new scientific discovery and won then it while nobody knew about it then good on them. We would just start a new one and the challenge would start to all of the people who continue to commit fraud.

If somebody managed to trick the JREF with a very good scam then I guess you´ld just start up again.

And if it turns out that astrology and homeopathy were real all along.... well, thats not worth thinking about =)

LightPiercingDarkness

13th November 2003, 08:10 AM

You guys are so gullable but I can see why, since it would also be the end of your forum.
So I can see why you'd attack anything that would argue that.

Someone said the foundation doesn't get the interest? Where do you think it goes (the interest fairy is holding it)? Lol. randi obviously gets it....you think the scrapes people like you throw them and the lectures are supporting all this? You honestly believe that everyone is gullable enough to work for free for randi? I would imagine this foundation makes a pretty penny. I bet randi aint living in the slums nor is his life style, that of a bum.

Lets suppose for one moment, that I prove "what I say about those faces".......you honestly think anyone will care what randi thinks anymore, besides you few? lol

You guys actually hold the same "interests" at hand.
Funny...on one hand everyone can't wait for something incrediable...and on the other hand....when someone does, that will be the end of your commaradery (excuse spelling).

Foundations built on sand don't stand.

komencanto

13th November 2003, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by LightPiercingDarkness
[B]You guys are so gullable but I can see why, since it would also be the end of your forum.
So I can see why you'd attack anything that would argue that.

This is just insane. You think I care so much about this forum that I would become self delusional? If it shut down I would just move to a similar forum, no problem.
And besides, simply because the 1 million was won wouldn´t mean that the forum would be closed. It costs very little to run except for the time from volunteers so no big deal.

Someone said the foundation doesn't get the interest? Where do you think it goes (the interest fairy is holding it)? Lol. randi obviously gets it....you think the scrapes people like you throw them and the lectures are supporting all this? You honestly believe that everyone is gullable enough to work for free for randi? I would imagine this foundation makes a pretty penny. I bet randi aint living in the slums nor is his life style, that of a bum.

I found that surprising too. I don´t know where the money goes but I have always assumed it was a source of income for the JREF. Randi probably does live pretty well, I don´t see anyone arguing differently, but what´s your point?
I also doubt that one of his main sources of income is interest on the 1 million.

Lets suppose for one moment, that I prove "what I say about those faces".......you honestly think anyone will care what randi thinks anymore, besides you few? lol

You guys actually hold the same "interests" at hand.
Funny...on one hand everyone can't wait for something incrediable...and on the other hand....when someone does, that will be the end of your commaradery (excuse spelling).

Go ahead, proove it, we´re waiting. At the moment you have a smashing record of convincing: 0 persons.
Let´s get moving.
If it were proved I would be interested to see what it meant, but it´s not, so I´m not interested.
I´m sure many people would be interested in the discovery, and Randi would continue his work disproving the fakers (which in that case wouldn´t include you).
Comradery? *Shakes head is despair for poor LPD*

LightPiercingDarkness

13th November 2003, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by komencanto

This is just insane. You think I care so much about this forum that I would become self delusional? If it shut down I would just move to a similar forum, no problem.
And besides, simply because the 1 million was won wouldn´t mean that the forum would be closed. It costs very little to run except for the time from volunteers so no big deal.

I found that surprising too. I don´t know where the money goes but I have always assumed it was a source of income for the JREF. Randi probably does live pretty well, I don´t see anyone arguing differently, but what´s your point?
I also doubt that one of his main sources of income is interest on the 1 million.

Go ahead, proove it, we´re waiting. At the moment you have a smashing record of convincing: 0 persons.
Let´s get moving.
If it were proved I would be interested to see what it meant, but it´s not, so I´m not interested.
I´m sure many people would be interested in the discovery, and Randi would continue his work disproving the fakers (which in that case wouldn´t include you).
Comradery? *Shakes head is despair for poor LPD*

The care and length in your reply...proves my point.

Take care with that shaking thing.

Lyndale

komencanto

13th November 2003, 08:48 AM

I reply to you because:

Somebody needs to, simply so that your nonsense doesn´t go unanswered.
It and you amuse me.
I just can´t stand that anyone could be as stupid as you. I want to try and convince you not to believe in idiocies. Many others have given up, as I will myself in time.

If you really want to proove your point, how about making a decent argument in favour of it instead of these pathetic rhetorical answers ever time somebody says something you can´t answer.

Smiles.

Michael Redman

13th November 2003, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by LightPiercingDarkness
I would imagine this foundation makes a pretty penny. The foundation is, obviously, a non-profit entity. It's finances, like those of all nonprofits in the US, are available online for free. Instead of continuing with these ignorant and foolish assertions, why don't you just learn the truth?

Suezoled

13th November 2003, 10:35 AM

JimTheBrit

13th November 2003, 01:03 PM

DPL: What do you think they do, with the interest of that million? Live off of it, that is what
komencanto: I also doubt that one of his main sources of income is interest on the 1 million.

From statement dated May 1 03 to May 31 03:
MARKET VALUE AS OF May 1 03: 1,054,656.70
DIVIDENDS RECEIVED: 458.29
INTEREST RECEIVED: 4,625.00
CHANGE IN MARKET VALUE: (4,389.85)
-------
MARKET VALUE AS OF May 31 03: 1,055,350.14

Gee, look at all that interest!

JREF - information for fiscal year ending 2001: Guidestar EZ (http://www.guidestar.org/controller/searchResults.gs?action_gsReport=1&npoId=523196)

Conclusion: Interest = drop in the ocean

Dane: I don't think Randi will make it impossible for them to pass

It's impossible for Randi to make it impossible for anyone to pass. Testing won't go ahead unless both parties (JREF and applicant) agree in advance that the test protocols are fair.

Edit: typo

Diogenes

13th November 2003, 01:05 PM

As has been pointed out many times before.. If someone actually had an ability that would enable them to win the JREF's million, they should have no problem at all earning millions more, by exploiting this ability in other ways...

In fact, why should they even bother with jumping through hoops for the measly JREF million in the first place?

!Xx+-Rational-+xX!

13th November 2003, 05:39 PM

Then randi and his army of crab people would have 1 million less for their world domination plan!

Peter Morris

13th November 2003, 08:41 PM

Michael Redman: I assume you already have done this, but if you read the information available, you'll see that this doesn't make sense. There is no stream of interest income coming to the foundation from the million.

Wrong. Randi says "We continue to receive inquiries about why we refuse to place the million dollars prize money of the JREF challenge in escrow ... By placing the million dollars in escrow, the JREF would lose the income from the money" http://www.randi.org/jr/082903.html

It seems that the income from the $1M is a serious amount that Randi doesn't want to give up. (He's managed to make special arrangements for Sylvia, to have the money in escrow without losing income, for a limited time)

It doesn't matter. They would have to give the money to any winner. In fact, the foundation would be powerless to prevent the payment of the money, which is not in the foundation's possession.
I'm not convinced of this. How would the handover actually happen? Wouldn't it require the JREF to verify that someone has passed the test? What would happen if someone claimed they had passed, but Randi claimed they had not? Or if Randi admitted they had passed, but says he has determined the ability isn't paranormal after all.

Originally posted by LightPiercingDarkness
I would imagine this foundation makes a pretty penny. The foundation is, obviously, a non-profit entity. It's finances, like those of all nonprofits in the US, are available online for free. Instead of continuing with these ignorant and foolish assertions, why don't you just learn the truth?

The foundation is non-profit making, but that doesn't mean that Randi works for free

see http://www.randi.org/jr/112202.html
"all my earnings from lectures go directly into the Foundation, which pays me a salary. "

Fee for his lectuures can be found here: http://www.randi.org/jr/062802.html

"if a lecture tour of Brazil can be arranged, with a minimum income of $10,000 for the James Randi Educational Foundation "

I guess Randi is making a pretty good living out of this game.

Ladewig

13th November 2003, 10:10 PM

I'm sensing... I'm sensing frustration and bitterness from LPD. Frustration coupled with bitterness.... fueled by anger at not having won something she/he may or may not genuinely believe to be true. And I'm seeing assumptions and... well, anger tossed at forum member not because it's personal, but because she/he can. For want and disappointment.

You forgot water. Lyndale is posting from a computer near water.

As for Lyndale's conclusion that the forum would be shut down. Why would tangible, incontrovertible evidence of say, remote viewing prevent us from enjoying posting skeptical comments about homeopathy or conspiracy theories or after death communication or alien visitation?

As for the individual skeptics here and elsewhere, if that event were to happen, we would not melt away like the Wicked Witch. On the contrary, I'd be proud of my stance. I'd say things like, "Yep, it's a good thing we had that one-million-dollar challenge because we would never have gotten the evidence any other way."

As for Randi, if the million dollars were awarded, the price of his speaking engagements would go up substantially. After all, he would have first hand knowledge of how the evidence was obtained.

Kevin_Lowe

14th November 2003, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by Diogenes
As has been pointed out many times before.. If someone actually had an ability that would enable them to win the JREF's million, they should have no problem at all earning millions more, by exploiting this ability in other ways...

In fact, why should they even bother with jumping through hoops for the measly JREF million in the first place?

I could imagine supernatural abilities that were real but sufficiently useless.

Suppose I could exercise a telekinetic force, for about half a second, about 5% of the times I tried, sufficient to lift 0.01 of a gram. That's a perfectly testable claim, well within the sensitivity of scientific instruments. But it's a pretty useless ability

In any case, the most important function of the prize IMNSHO is to annoy the people who claim to have real and verifiable powers but who are actually frauds. The possibility of ferreting out a genuinely new scientific phenomenon is a bonus.

Dane

14th November 2003, 03:45 AM

Jim,

You must have misread what I wrote up there. I said I "don't" think Randi will make it impossible. You might not have noticed the don't, and thought I said to the contrary. Of course I have plenty of faith in Randi... maybe...maybe even...more faith than LPD has about the demon faces!

But that's a long stretch.

Dane

JimTheBrit

14th November 2003, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by Dane
Jim,

You must have misread what I wrote up there. I said I "don't" think Randi will make it impossible. You might not have noticed the don't, and thought I said to the contrary. Of course I have plenty of faith in Randi... maybe...maybe even...more faith than LPD has about the demon faces!

But that's a long stretch.

Dane

Yeah Dane, I understood, mate. I thought your "I don't think" might lead some to conclude there's a possibility of it happening, when that's not the case. It's subtle but I thought I'd clarify for anyone not familiar with the challenge.

Telepathic Ads

15th November 2003, 03:38 AM

In fact, why should they even bother with jumping through hoops for the measly JREF million in the first place?

maybe cause it has no where else to turn too??

HelloCruelWorld

16th November 2003, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by Peter Morris

It seems that the income from the $1M is a serious amount that Randi doesn't want to give up. (He's managed to make special arrangements for Sylvia, to have the money in escrow without losing income, for a limited time)

well it's a serious amount, but Randi of course isn't about to give it up to any old kook that says "LOOK AT ME, I GOT SUPAR POWARS!!!111 The point of it's existence is to make his challenge very appealing.

I'm not convinced of this. How would the handover actually happen? Wouldn't it require the JREF to verify that someone has passed the test? What would happen if someone claimed they had passed, but Randi claimed they had not? Or if Randi admitted they had passed, but says he has determined the ability isn't paranormal after all.

Well, for one, the test is set up so that there is one of two results: Pass, or No-Pass...the test is designed in advance and agreed to by both Randi and the challenger. The results are always SELF-EVIDENT so that there is no way to argue whether the tester passed or didn't pass. That's the point. And if someone passed Randi would be LEGALLY OBLIGATED to give up the million. Besides, I'm sure someone could explain the process better....

The foundation is non-profit making, but that doesn't mean that Randi works for free

see http://www.randi.org/jr/112202.html
"all my earnings from lectures go directly into the Foundation, which pays me a salary. "

Fee for his lectuures can be found here: http://www.randi.org/jr/062802.html

"if a lecture tour of Brazil can be arranged, with a minimum income of $10,000 for the James Randi Educational Foundation "

I guess Randi is making a pretty good living out of this game.

Oh no! The man makes money for running a non-profit educational organization that SURELY takes a lot of his time. But to be honest, I don't think he needs this organization to make money...he can always make lots on the lecture circuit(hell probably loads if someone passed the test). Besides, I'm sure he is pretty well off regardless. Besides, he's not trying to hide any of this. There is no game he is playing.

Linda

16th November 2003, 11:31 AM

Allow me to comment on the finances of the JREF. The interest on the $1 million runs about $30,000 a year...less than 10% of our income and less than 10% of our operating expenses. Yes, Randi gets a salary, but it's not a huge one compared to what a John Edward or Sylvia Browne receive. And if you broke his salary down compared to the number of hours he spends at the office or traveling for the Foundation, most of you probably make more than Randi does. People seem to think that Randi has accumulated great wealth over the years, but forget that he has spent hundreds of thousands in legal fees defending himself from frivolous lawsuits over those same years.

The assets of the Foundation appear to be considerable when you look at the financial reports, until you realize that the $1.0 million is in a designated account and other than the interest, not accessible to the JREF...and the building that the Foundation is housed in is the other main asset. You can't use a building to pay your phone bill or insurance bill (can anyone say "windstorm coverage"?)

Randi's lecture fees bring in between $55,000-$75,000/year depending on how much time I can spend trying to book lectures for him. Most of the places that want Randi to lecture can't afford the $7500 lecture fee he charges, and we do several each year for less.

So between lecture fees and interest, we've accounted for less than a third of the income needed to keep operating. The rest comes from you....from donations and merchandise sales and memberships and from income generated by conferences (Have you all registered for TAM 2 yet?) We're pretty frugal around here; lights off in rooms if they're empty...our copy machine is ancient, and I'm still on a dial-up connection. And would I love a color laser printer! We could use another employee to concentrate on the challenge applications, do PR and concentrate on booking lectures. We'd love to give out more scholarships.

For some reason the 2002 financials aren't posted on that website, although they should have the numbers. But they're not much different than 2001's.

Bottom line folks....we aren't rich, but we do have that $1.0 million for the challenge and it doesn't affect the operation of the Foundation in any meaningful way, so we're not rigging challenge applicants just so we don't have to give away the money.

!Xx+-Rational-+xX!

16th November 2003, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by traveller
Then randi and his army of crab people would have 1 million less for their world domination plan!

I speak the truth!

7th sextile

29th November 2003, 05:21 AM

Linda:thanks for taking the time to post that detailed explanation.

thatguywhojuggles

30th November 2003, 06:02 AM

Originally posted by Peter Morris

I'm not convinced of this. How would the handover actually happen? Wouldn't it require the JREF to verify that someone has passed the test? What would happen if someone claimed they had passed, but Randi claimed they had not? Or if Randi admitted they had passed, but says he has determined the ability isn't paranormal after all.

http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html

"Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result. This is the primary and most important of these rules. "

JimTheBrit

24th December 2003, 06:47 AM

Guidestar has updated its information on the JREF - Financial Snapshot for Fiscal Year Ending 2002 (http://www.guidestar.org/controller/searchResults.gs?action_gsReport=1&npoId=523196)

LightPiercingDarkness

25th December 2003, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by Linda
Allow me to comment on the finances of the JREF. The interest on the $1 million runs about $30,000 a year...less than 10% of our income and less than 10% of our operating expenses. Yes, Randi gets a salary, but it's not a huge one compared to what a John Edward or Sylvia Browne receive. And if you broke his salary down compared to the number of hours he spends at the office or traveling for the Foundation, most of you probably make more than Randi does. People seem to think that Randi has accumulated great wealth over the years, but forget that he has spent hundreds of thousands in legal fees defending himself from frivolous lawsuits over those same years.

The assets of the Foundation appear to be considerable when you look at the financial reports, until you realize that the $1.0 million is in a designated account and other than the interest, not accessible to the JREF...and the building that the Foundation is housed in is the other main asset. You can't use a building to pay your phone bill or insurance bill (can anyone say "windstorm coverage"?)

Randi's lecture fees bring in between $55,000-$75,000/year depending on how much time I can spend trying to book lectures for him. Most of the places that want Randi to lecture can't afford the $7500 lecture fee he charges, and we do several each year for less.

So between lecture fees and interest, we've accounted for less than a third of the income needed to keep operating. The rest comes from you....from donations and merchandise sales and memberships and from income generated by conferences (Have you all registered for TAM 2 yet?) We're pretty frugal around here; lights off in rooms if they're empty...our copy machine is ancient, and I'm still on a dial-up connection. And would I love a color laser printer! We could use another employee to concentrate on the challenge applications, do PR and concentrate on booking lectures. We'd love to give out more scholarships.

For some reason the 2002 financials aren't posted on that website, although they should have the numbers. But they're not much different than 2001's.

Bottom line folks....we aren't rich, but we do have that $1.0 million for the challenge and it doesn't affect the operation of the Foundation in any meaningful way, so we're not rigging challenge applicants just so we don't have to give away the money.

"...$1.0 million for the challenge and it doesn't affect the operation of the Foundation in any meaningful way,..."

That million is a "constant" million dollar advertisement.

So your statement is false and if you don't believe that...withdraw the million and see what becomes of you.

Do you think it is your charms...that entices people to you?

(smiles)

Lyndale