Israeli Navy Has Turned to Piracy

[webfusion]

Sitting here on a quiet Sunday, in that pregnant pause between Wars in Israel
(reports today say rockets and mortars continue to be launched from Gaza) ---

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=99172
The Israeli Navy has been rather busy as well. A variety of shipping traffic has been converging on the shores off Israel & Egypt. Israel attempts to maintain a Maritime Blockade against HAMAS, while being forced to contend with FreeGaza/ISM freighters and ferry boats.

It must be realized by all here, that allowing aid to flow to HAMAS directly, is a violation of a variety of laws, in many nations. Punishable by prison terms.

[INRM]

Of course Israel doesn't care about International law...

[WildCat]

Of course Israel doesn't care about International law...
What law would that be?

[Thunder]

Of course Israel cares about International Law!!!!!!

..especially when it applies to other people.

;)

[WildCat]

Of course Israel cares about International Law!!!!!!

..especially when it applies to other people.

;)
Perhaps you should ring the international police and file a report?

[Thunder]

Sitting here on a quiet Sunday, in that pregnant pause between Wars in Israel
(reports today say rockets and mortars continue to be launched from Gaza) ---

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=99172
The Israeli Navy has been rather busy as well. A variety of shipping traffic has been converging on the shores off Israel & Egypt. Israel attempts to maintain a Maritime Blockade against HAMAS, while being forced to contend with FreeGaza/ISM freighters and ferry boats.

It must be realized by all here, that allowing aid to flow to HAMAS directly, is a violation of a variety of laws, in many nations. Punishable by prison terms.

I like your new avatar. It leaves no doubt who your true national allegiances are with.

[Skeptic]

Since the "humanitarian aid" to Gaza ends up in Hamas' coffers anyway...

[mr rosewater]

Since the "humanitarian aid" to Gaza ends up in Hamas' coffers anyway...

Do you mean this?

hamas steals aid.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304705842&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Nice.

[gdnp]

Since the "humanitarian aid" to Gaza ends up in Hamas' coffers anyway...

Why "humanitarian aid" in quotes? Do you think Hamas is making bombs out of flour?

[fuelair]

No, just keeping it for their own use or sale. Certainly not for freely and fairly providing it to all Palestineans.

[yairhol]

No, just keeping it for their own use or sale. Certainly not for freely and fairly providing it to all Palestineans.

[Hamas talk]
Which Palestinians would that be? oh you mean those people that we use for shelter against Israeli retaliation? Yeah, isn't it great? we steal their money, steal their food and have them lined up as human shields. Then we cry to the world about what the Israelis are doing to those poor people.
[/Hamas talk]

[gdnp]

[JREF Israeli talk]
We occupy their land, confiscate their property, colonize it, refuse them building permits then bulldoze the illegal construction, assassinate their leaders, blockade their borders, drop bombs on their civilians, and still they won't renounce violence! Can't they see we only want peace!
[/JREF Israeli talk]

[Polaris]

What law would that be?

That would be the law that only applies as the Middle East is concerned to largely-Jewish nations which were formed in 1948.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

[JREF Israeli talk]
We occupy their land, confiscate their property, colonize it, refuse them building permits then bulldoze the illegal construction, assassinate their leaders, blockade their borders, drop bombs on their civilians, and still they won't renounce violence! Can't they see we only want peace!
[/JREF Israeli talk]

I know, I can't understand it. After all Israel was created with full consideration to the rights of everyone living on the land it was created on. It provided a full compensation package to everyone who was displaced in order to make way for settlements. It's spent the last 60 years giving equal rights to those of all races in both Israel and the West Bank, building new roads which everyone is allowed to drive on. The Gaza strip has been nurtured as a blooming haven of tranquility where the standard of living ranks among the highest in the world.

I can't understand why anyone could ever have a bad word to say about Israel. A country all others should model themselves on I reckon.

:rolleyes:

[yairhol]

[JREF Israeli talk]
We occupy their land, confiscate their property, colonize it, refuse them building permits then bulldoze the illegal construction, assassinate their leaders, blockade their borders, drop bombs on their civilians, and still they won't renounce violence! Can't they see we only want peace!
[/JREF Israeli talk]


[reality check for gdnp]
false, false, false, false, false, demagogics, populism, demagogics, false, false, false.
[/reality check for gdnp]

[Skeptic]

Hamas makes it easy for Israel. I could see, for example, legitimate criticism if Israel stopped humanitarian aid that actually did serve humanitarian purposes. But since it is likely to end up in Hamas' hands anyway - freeing it to get more money for weapons - I fail to see the point of the criticism.

Apparently, nowadays, it is "piracy" to stop terorrist organizations from getting supplies. Of course that's true only when certain nations do it...

[gdnp]

[reality check for gdnp]
false, false, false, false, false, demagogics, populism, demagogics, false, false, false.
[/reality check for gdnp]

Wow. Enjoy your stay on Planet X. I don't know what else to say.

Other than the number of your denials does not equal the number of my claims. Perhaps you need a math refresher as well as a history refresher?

[gdnp]

Hamas makes it easy for Israel. I could see, for example, legitimate criticism if Israel stopped humanitarian aid that actually did serve humanitarian purposes. But since it is likely to end up in Hamas' hands anyway - freeing it to get more money for weapons - I fail to see the point of the criticism. Yeah, stealing supplies is a bad move. It leads to the UN suspending shipments.

Apparently, nowadays, it is "piracy" to stop terorrist organizations from getting supplies. Of course that's true only when certain nations do it...
The "piracy" claim is absurd, especially since Israel is not keeping the confiscated aid: in fact, they agreed to deliver it.

[yairhol]

Wow. Enjoy your stay on Planet X. I don't know what else to say.

Other than the number of your denials does not equal the number of my claims. Perhaps you need a math refresher as well as a history refresher?

So you actually counted the words? You must be bored.
My reply wasn't meant as a 1 on 1 against your nonsense.
I must have added some comments regarding your possible future demagogics and false claims.

[fuelair]

Wow. Enjoy your stay on Planet X. I don't know what else to say.

Other than the number of your denials does not equal the number of my claims. Perhaps you need a math refresher as well as a history refresher?

Wrong is wrong - whether it is too few or too many, you were still wrong on every count.

[webfusion]

TFT tries to make a sarcastic point, and fails: "After all Israel was created with full consideration to the rights of everyone living on the land it was created on."

That is 100% true -- Israel was created exactly with that in mind.

From the Israeli Declaration of Independence May 14, 1948 ---
THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

[dudalb]

Speaking of Jewish Pirates:

http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Pirates-Caribbean-Swashbuckling-Freedom/dp/0385513984/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234204037&sr=8-1

This one is definenly on my must read list.

[gdnp]

Wrong is wrong - whether it is too few or too many, you were still wrong on every count.



[reality check for gdnp]
false, false, false, false, false, demagogics, populism, demagogics, false, false, false.
[/reality check for gdnp]


Well, let's break this down then:

We occupy their land
You assert that Israel is not occupying the West Bank? Who are all those Israelis with guns and checkpoints, then? Not a good start. 0 for 1

confiscate their property
I refer you to the recent thread about settlements built on Arab owned land. There are plenty of other links, like this one (http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2003%20Opinion%20Editorials/July/3o/Israel%20Defies%20Peace%20Plan%20with%20Land%20Gra b%20on%20West%20Bank,%20Chris%20McGreal.htm)

0 for 2

colonize it 121 Jewish-only settlements (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/settlements.html) in the west bank. 100 or more additional unofficial outposts that Israel does not remove. 300,000 settlers. Colonization. 0 for 3

refuse them building permits (http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/spip.php?article5) then bulldoze the illegal construction
House Demolition

According to the Fourth Geneva Convention as signed by Israel, an Occupying Power is prohibited from destroying property or making use of collective punishment. Article 53 states that; “Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, to the State, to other public authorities, or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations”. East Jerusalem is regarded ‘occupied territory’ by the United Nations, therefore, the practice of demolishing Palestinian houses is not legal.

Israeli law, however, differs. Construction, built without an Israeli permit is considered illegal. In large parts of East Jerusalem no building permits are obtainable due to the inability to meet the conditions required. The Municipality notes that NIS 185 million is required to “promote conditions for construction in the eastern city,” and to provide infrastructure that will enable building permits to be issued. The Municipality was given NIS 9 million, but so far, no project has been launched.

Many Palestinian Jersusalemites choose to construct buildings without permits, which provides the Ministry of Interior and the Jerusalem Municipality the judicial pretext to demolish their homes.

It is to be noted that illegal constructions are being built in West Jerusalem, but demolition of these are seldom carried out and “if they are actually carried out, are committed against minor structures – balconies, sheds, staircases and so on – while in East Jerusalem most demolitions are of entire dwellings and multi-storey apartment buildings.”

O for 4 and 5

assassinate their leaders

Israel's 'targeted killings' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3556809.stm)

0 for 6. Not looking too good.

blockade their borders

Carter calls Gaza blockade a 'crime and atrocity' (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/976086.html)

Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter called the blockade imposed on the Gaza Strip a "crime and an atrocity" on Thursday, and said U.S. attempts to undermine the Islamist movement Hamas had been counterproductive.
Now I don't expect you to agree with Carter's assessment from last year, but to deny that there is a blockade at all is to deny reality.

That makes 0 for 7


drop bombs on their civilians
Hmm...wait a minute. not all the civilians were killed (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/944263.html) with bombs

Israeli security forces killed 810 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in 2006 and 2007, Shin Bet security service chief Yuval Diskin reported Sunday at the weekly cabinet briefing in Jerusalem. He estimated that some 200 of those killed were not clearly linked to terrorist organizations.

However, an examination by Haaretz reveals that the number of Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces stands at 816 during those two years, and that of them, 360 were civilians who were not affiliated with any armed organizations.

Well, since some of the civilians were killed through other means, I suppose you deserve something. How about half a point? More than you deserve, but I'm feeling generous.

So let's look at the totals. I have 7 1/2 points :D and you have 1/2 point. :(

Thanks for playing. I'd like to say it's been fun, but...

Now do you have any real rebuttal, or do you just plan to keep sticking your fingers in your ears and declaring I am wrong?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

That is 100% true -- Israel was created exactly with that in mind.

From the Israeli Declaration of Independence May 14, 1948 ---
THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

The Israeli Declaration of Independence is complete BS then. But then a propagnda message and ideology abased upon lies is the order of the day for Israel and the Zionist movement.

What was that about 'freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture' ???

You may wish to learn more about the country you are licking clean the small intestine of....



It is legal for a Israeli school to not allow in Arab students.

Arab students recieve about 50% the amount of education funds as Jewish students.

Israel has yet to build one...single...new Arab town or city. They have built hundreds of Jewish towns.

It is legal to not sell land to someone because they are an Arab or a Muslim.

It is illegal for an Israeli political party to call Israel anything but..."The Jewish State". Yet, it is legal for a political party to call for the forced expulsion of Arabs and Muslims.

The government of Israel only recognizes marriage between Jews.

Only Jews...or those with 1/4th Jewish blood..can come to Israel under the Law of Return. There are tons of financial benefits that are ONLY eligible to folks who came under the Law of Return.

Israel, my friend, is filled with de-facto and de-sure examples of racism and discrimination.


So much for the lies of the Israeli Declaration of Independence then.

Do you believe everything that's printed? You may wish to re-assess your gullibility factor.

[Pardalis]

Israel's 'targeted killings' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3556809.stm)

0 for 6. Not looking too good.


These are target killings of Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders, not Palestinan authority leaders. These terrorist "leaders" do not represent the Palestinians, and if you want to argue that they do, then no wonder the conflict is still unresolved.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

They are illegally downloading Palestinian music? Oh, wait, wrong one.

[gdnp]

These are target killings of Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders, not Palestinan authority leaders. These terrorist "leaders" do not represent the Palestinians, and if you want to argue that they do, then no wonder the conflict is still unresolved.

Look, my original post was an attempt to counter a post painting the Israelis entirely as innocent victims with one which shows how a Palestinian might view the situation. Although I am uncomfortable with state-sponsored assassination, I will admit that at times it may be necessary. I have no problem if people wish to argue that the assassination of Hamas and Al Aqsa terrorist leaders was necessary because their crimes were well documented and their was no feasible mechanism to arrest them. I might even agree with you. I would certainly support the extrajudicial killing of Bin Laden. But that does not alter the fact that Palestinian leaders have been assassinated by Israel, and it is one of the reasons that Palestinians seek revenge. To label it as false is disingenuous.

[webfusion]

The Israeli Declaration of Independence is complete BS then.


So you say.

You may wish to learn more about the country ...

I am an Israeli and in my personal experiences, the words of that document ring true.
In my 15+ years of living in Tel Aviv, I never ONCE saw an Israeli-Palestinian denied a political or social freedom, nor denied free access to practice their religion, prohibited from expressing their conscience, stopped from speaking their (Arabic) language, or denied the pursuit of an education (Tel Aviv University, Hebrew University, Ben Gurion University, the Technion -- all have Palestinian students) or practice their unique Arabic culture.



As for parky76 making those other claims -- I'm not sure where he got that stuff from and I am not going to make any comments at this junction.

However, just this one item is easily debunked:
"The government of Israel only recognizes marriage between Jews."

This is completely false.
Marriages performed by ANY denomination of officially-recognized clergy are completely valid and registered by the Israel Minister of Interior.

[The Fool]

So you say.



I am an Israeli and in my personal experiences, the words of that document ring true.
In my 15+ years of living in Tel Aviv, I never ONCE saw an Israeli-Palestinian denied a political or social freedom, nor denied free access to practice their religion, prohibited from expressing their conscience, stopped from speaking their (Arabic) language, or denied the pursuit of an education (Tel Aviv University, Hebrew University, Ben Gurion University, the Technion -- all have Palestinian students) or practice their unique Arabic culture.



As for parky76 making those other claims -- I'm not sure where he got that stuff from and I am not going to make any comments at this junction.


No, you would rather just make a sweeping anecdotal statement that you don't see discrimination. Having been dismantled a number of times in the past when you have denied discrimination is this the new approach? I don't see it and I'm not going to comment on examples??? Or maybe it will be the claim that your 2nd class citizens are treated better than any other 2nd class citizens in the world?

This discrimination is one of the main things that is preventing the advancement of your country into the modern era. you need to fix it.

[webfusion]

No, you would rather just make a sweeping anecdotal statement that you don't see discrimination. Having been dismantled a number of times in the past when you have denied discrimination is this the new approach? I don't see it and I'm not going to comment on examples??? Or maybe it will be the claim that your 2nd class citizens are treated better than any other 2nd class citizens in the world?

This discrimination is one of the main things that is preventing the advancement of your country into the modern era. you need to fix it.

Discrimination exists. I have not denied it exists.
Israel is already a part of the modern world, and AFAIK, every nation on this planet today has some forms of discrimination practiced. You know it, I know it.

The Arabs in Israel face challenges. The Declaration of Independence speaks clearly for a society that is not designed to discriminate. It is an ideal that may one day become fully realized, and perhaps Israel will be the first nation to realize it.

Some articles are more virulent than others about this subject. (http://www.aljazeerah.info/News/2009/February/11%20n/Israeli%20Elections,%20Dictatorship%20of%20the%20Z ionist%20Terroristic%20Political%20Parties%20to%20 Subjugate%20the%20Palestinian%20Majority.htm)

[gdnp]

Discrimination exists. I have not denied it exists.
Israel is already a part of the modern world, and AFAIK, every nation on this planet today has some forms of discrimination practiced. You know it, I know it.

The Arabs in Israel face challenges. The Declaration of Independence speaks clearly for a society that is not designed to discriminate. It is an ideal that may one day become fully realized, and perhaps Israel will be the first nation to realize it.

Some articles are more virulent than others about this subject. (http://www.aljazeerah.info/News/2009/February/11%20n/Israeli%20Elections,%20Dictatorship%20of%20the%20Z ionist%20Terroristic%20Political%20Parties%20to%20 Subjugate%20the%20Palestinian%20Majority.htm)

The recent rise of the Yisrael Beiteinu party, likely to be included in the next coalition government, suggests that this day may not be any time soon.

[Skeptic]

It's amusing, in a sad sort of way, that people here who had never been to Middle East, let alone Israel, who cannot speak a word of Hebrew, and who cannot (probably) point out Israel on the map without help (then again, perhaps they have one of those "special" maps used in the PA schools, where Israel doesn't exist), attempt to tell people born and raised and living in Israel that they should "learn something about Israel". This is just like those idiot creationists, people like Ken Ham and Kent Hovind, thinking that they're qualified to tell scientists to "learn the truth about evolution".

Just like their "biological creationists" counterparts, the "political creationists" ("In the beginning, Satan created Zionism, and saw that it was bad") are wholly convinced they just KNOW the AWFUL TRUTH(tm) about Darwinism, I mean Zionism, despite the fact that in reality, and rather obviously, they know nothing at all about the subject. What's more, they are sure everybody who dares to disagree is just an "Darwinist propagandist", I mean a "Zionist apologist".

It is clear the motivation for the "political creationist's" criticism has little to do with any of Israel's imperfections -- just like the motivation of the biological creationists has little to do with any of the actual unsolved mysteries in biology. The motivation is rather psychological -- like the biological creationists, these political creationists are driven by what Carl Sagan (I think) called their "abysimal ignorance coupled with incredible arrogance".

As one commenter on "Discover" magazine's web site put it, "their problem is that their combination of ignorance and arrogance looks an awful lot like stupid".

[gdnp]

It's amusing, in a sad sort of way, that people here who had never been to Middle East, let alone Israel, who cannot speak a word of Hebrew, and who cannot (probably) point out Israel on the map without help (then again, perhaps they have one of those "special" maps used in the PA schools, where Israel doesn't exist), attempt to tell people born and raised and living in Israel that they should "learn something about Israel". This is just like those idiot creationists, people like Ken Ham and Kent Hovind, thinking that they're qualified to tell scientists to "learn the truth about evolution".

Just like their "biological creationists" counterparts, the "political creationists" ("In the beginning, Satan created Zionism, and saw that it was bad") are wholly convinced they just KNOW the AWFUL TRUTH(tm) about Darwinism, I mean Zionism, despite the fact that in reality, and rather obviously, they know nothing at all about the subject. What's more, they are sure everybody who dares to disagree is just an "Darwinist propagandist", I mean a "Zionist apologist".

It is clear the motivation for the "political creationist's" criticism has little to do with any of Israel's imperfections -- just like the motivation of the biological creationists has little to do with any of the actual unsolved mysteries in biology. The motivation is rather psychological -- like the biological creationists, these political creationists are driven by what Carl Sagan (I think) called their "abysimal ignorance coupled with incredible arrogance".

As one commenter on "Discover" magazine's web site put it, "their problem is that their combination of ignorance and arrogance looks an awful lot like stupid".
Its sad, in an amusing sort of way, how many fallacies can be bundled into one short post.

[dudalb]

I think part of it is the idea if Israel were to vanish that there would be peace In the Middle East..despite the overwheoming evidence to the contrary.
I am not a blind supporter of Israel...I think the settlement policy is idiotic,and had problems with the emphasis on air strikes and artillery bombardment in the Gaza operation over more limited commando type raids...but I have to agree with skeptic that I get the sense that a lot more posters here then will admit it really want Israel destroyed. They justify this by a fantasy that a non sectarian, democratic Palestinian state will emerge. Anybody who thinks that is living in La La Land. Would that be the most desireable outcome..maybe. It is a realistic possibliity? When You Can Go Ice Skating in the Infernal Regions.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

It's amusing, in a sad sort of way, that people here who had never been to Middle East, let alone Israel, who cannot speak a word of Hebrew, and who cannot (probably) point out Israel on the map .....

Once again you show us an accurate measure of the quality of your arguments. Zero.

Attacking people with silly accusations you cannot know anything about is really very childish isn't it?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I think part of it is the idea if Israel were to vanish that there would be peace In the Middle East..despite the overwheoming evidence to the contrary.
I am not a blind supporter of Israel...I think the settlement policy is idiotic,and had problems with the emphasis on air strikes and artillery bombardment in the Gaza operation over more limited commando type raids...but I have to agree with skeptic that I get the sense that a lot more posters here then will admit it really want Israel destroyed. They justify this by a fantasy that a non sectarian, democratic Palestinian state will emerge. Anybody who thinks that is living in La La Land. Would that be the most desireable outcome..maybe. It is a realistic possibliity? When You Can Go Ice Skating in the Infernal Regions.

Yet another snide implication that people are anti-semites. I'll say it more politely this time, as last time I got suspended for a few days, but you wouldn't recognize an anti-semite if one walked upto you and said "Hello, I'm an anti-semite"

Like Skeptic and many others here it seems you are just looking to fulfill your fallacious but predetermined view that as Israel can do little wrong the only reason people heavily criticize it is because they hate Jews.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Just like their "biological creationists" counterparts, the "political creationists" ("In the beginning, Satan created Zionism, and saw that it was bad") are wholly convinced they just KNOW the AWFUL TRUTH(tm) about Darwinism, I mean Zionism, despite the fact that in reality, and rather obviously, they know nothing at all about the subject. What's more, they are sure everybody who dares to disagree is just an "Darwinist propagandist", I mean a "Zionist apologist".

It is clear the motivation for the "political creationist's" criticism has little to do with any of Israel's imperfections -- just like the motivation of the biological creationists has little to do with any of the actual unsolved mysteries in biology. The motivation is rather psychological -- like the biological creationists, these political creationists are driven by what Carl Sagan (I think) called their "abysimal ignorance coupled with incredible arrogance".

As one commenter on "Discover" magazine's web site put it, "their problem is that their combination of ignorance and arrogance looks an awful lot like stupid".

I'll say one thing. You're entertaining. Thanks for the laugh :)

Although the way you try and convince people that you are so superior is quite sad.

[Darth Rotor]

Y'all are so predicatable I'd use you to set my watch, if I bothered to wear one.

As to pirates: The Israeli Navy all watched Pirates of the Caribbean: of course they go all piratical and such, it gets the chicks all hot, don't it?

Hollywood says so, thus it must be true!

D AAARRRR!

[Skeptic]

(Shrug)

I didn't mean you, gdnp. As much as I disagree with you, I don't you ever claimed that you know Israel better than Israelies or have knowledge of the "secret truth" about what it is "really" like.

But apart from saying I am making false arguments, care to tell me where?

[gdnp]

(Shrug)

I didn't mean you, gdnp. As much as I disagree with you, I don't you ever claimed that you know Israel better than Israelies or have knowledge of the "secret truth" about what it is "really" like.

But apart from saying I am making false arguments, care to tell me where?

Well, since you asked...

It's amusing, in a sad sort of way, that people here who had never been to Middle East, let alone Israel, who cannot speak a word of Hebrew, and who cannot (probably) point out Israel on the map without help (then again, perhaps they have one of those "special" maps used in the PA schools, where Israel doesn't exist), attempt to tell people born and raised and living in Israel that they should "learn something about Israel". This is just like those idiot creationists, people like Ken Ham and Kent Hovind, thinking that they're qualified to tell scientists to "learn the truth about evolution".
Condescending opening: interesting in a post where one of your main claims against your opponents is arrogance. You imply that traveling/living in Israel and speaking Hebrew is necessary to understand the situation. Have you, for example, ever lived in a Palestinian refugee camp? Do you speak Arabic? Are those necessary for you to understand the plight of the Palestinian people?

Then you go on to compare your opponents to creationists: practically the JREF equivalent to a Godwin. An analogy for which you present a very weak case....

Just like their "biological creationists" counterparts, the "political creationists" ("In the beginning, Satan created Zionism, and saw that it was bad") are wholly convinced they just KNOW the AWFUL TRUTH(tm) about Darwinism, I mean Zionism, despite the fact that in reality, and rather obviously, they know nothing at all about the subject. What's more, they are sure everybody who dares to disagree is just an "Darwinist propagandist", I mean a "Zionist apologist".Here we move on to straw man arguments. Satan created Zionism? I have heard no one claim that Zionism was created by anyone other than men. I have not even heard anyone claim that these men were particularly evil, much less pure evil.

Now I will admit that TFT throws around the term "zionist apologist" quite loosely, but as I have noted there are posters here who in my memory have never said a single word in criticism against Israeli policies or actions. TFT, for all his flaws, will at least criticize the palestinians and in particular Hamas. So the implication that Israel's opponents are faith-based zealots unwilling to critically examine the evidence does not hold water. At least you have not demonstrated that it does.

It is clear the motivation for the "political creationist's" criticism has little to do with any of Israel's imperfections -- just like the motivation of the biological creationists has little to do with any of the actual unsolved mysteries in biology. The motivation is rather psychological -- like the biological creationists, these political creationists are driven by what Carl Sagan (I think) called their "abysimal ignorance coupled with incredible arrogance".
Ignorance and arrogance are states of mind. They say nothing about motivation: if their beliefs are flawed, what are the sources of their flawed beliefs? Creationists flawed beliefs are based on their trust in the literal truth of a 2000 year old book. What about Israel's critics? Do you believe that they are entirely motivated by a religious-level faith, perhaps in the evils of Zionism, and that all their criticism derives from that belief, with all evidence molded or dismissed to match their predetermined conclusion, as Creationists do? This is what you are implying.

What I see is a discourse like this: TFT says that Cast Lead was wrong because it caused unnecessary civilian casualties
Skeptic replies that TFT is criticizing Israel because TFT thinks Zionism is the work of Satan

Now which POV is closer to that of the creationists?

You have attempted to dismiss the opponent(s) you place in this "creationist" camp without a single word of critique of any point they have actually made by simply defining them as unworthy of debate. "my opponents are ignorant and arrogant, thus their arguments against Israel's imperfections can be dismissed without need for critical analysis. It's sad and amusing how beneath me they are, with my superior knowledge, morality, and critical thinking skills".

This is the message I got from your post.

[gumboot]

Why "humanitarian aid" in quotes? Do you think Hamas is making bombs out of flour?

Flour can be highly explosive...

[gdnp]

Flour can be highly explosive...

as can any flammable powder. That does not make them suitable for the production of bombs.

[gumboot]

as can any flammable powder. That does not make them suitable for the production of bombs.

I was being silly. I don't think anyone seriously thinks anyone would use flour to make bombs. Flour could make quite a neat little FAE, but I suspect equally common materials like gasoline punch more bang for volume, and probably aerosol more easily.

[gdnp]

I was being silly. I don't think anyone seriously thinks anyone would use flour to make bombs. Flour could make quite a neat little FAE, but I suspect equally common materials like gasoline punch more bang for volume, and probably aerosol more easily.

McGuyver could do it, though. ;)