There is more evidence of dragons than Jesus.

[The Atheist]

Christians are wont to claim there is as much evidence for Jesus Christ as many historical figures, and more than many.

In response, I am developing a argument that there is more evidence for the existence of dragons than anything godly, be it Jesus, his grow-back-your-cherry mummy, or the sky-daddy himself.

Even christians acknowledge the existence of dragons, with the St George (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George_and_the_Dragon)story of the patron saint of England. It is therefore obvious that Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II, Defender of the Faith and supreme head of the Church of England, she who must be obeyed, believes in both dragons and god/s. (http://www.britannia.com/history/stgeorge.html)

Fundies love to point out flood myths in a wide varity of cultures; well, dragons are highly cross-cultural, and with a rekable degree of similarity. Eastern and Western dragons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon)have several common characteristics not accounted for intermingling of myths. Eastern dragons were capable of being friendly rather the nasty, western variety, but that could easily be explained by eastern people's more empathic attitude, being far less likely to kill them.

Even boats are sometimes (http://www.dragonboat.org.nz/)shaped like dragons.

Some people even believe dragons had a major part in forming the world. Please search buzz lightyear's posting history (http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=14323)to check this out.

There are no dragon churches, no organised dragon clubs and no tithing to places which try to prove the existence of dragons, yet Google shows:

A generic search on "dragon" (http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=dragon&meta=) brings 195 million returns, while,

A generic search on "Jesus" (http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q=jesus&meta=) brings 208 million returns. Given that a lot of the Jesus numbers will be made up of expletive use of the christly-bloke's name, I think it's pretty clear dragons win.

"Jesus Christ" (http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=jesus+christ++&btnG=Search&meta=) returns a lousy 40 million.

Clearly, 5 times more articles are written about dragons than an actual god's dead kid.

So, remember, next time some BAF christian talks about evidence for his sky-daddy and his son, point them here.

[Bibbly]

I lol'ed.
And then I raged.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Plus. In the past people have found huge fossilized bones that must have belonged to dragons. The best we have for JC is his death shroud that shows him to have long arms like a monkey and a curiously narrow face. :boggled:

[Soapy Sam]

There is no evidence for dragons.
Except the Komodo variety.

Oh. I see what you did there.

I don't like it TA. Someone existed who was the focus of the stories. (Like Robin Hood, he may be a composite of many figures).
Dragons are myth.

Personally, I'd like to hear more about Pilate. Did he have a parrot for example?

[PixyMisa]

He had a small dragon that he trained to sit on his shoulder.

[Skeptic Guy]

Hell, there are live specimens of Dragons today!

http://www.google.com/images?q=tbn:_VzTf0sDB-RjxM::nicolereillan.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/komodo_dragon.jpg (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://nicolereillan.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/komodo_dragon.jpg&imgrefurl=http://nicolereillan.wordpress.com/category/life-in-general/the-strange-workings-of-my-psychotic-mind-life-in-general/page/2/&h=329&w=470&sz=30&tbnid=_VzTf0sDB-RjxM::&tbnh=90&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3DKomodo%2Bdragon&usg=__jYz53-EJED7dWPU0LZ2MffPeSFI=&ei=KZmVSauxCNLjtgfI6YiZCw&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image&cd=1)

[Dr Adequate]

I don't like it TA. Someone existed who was the focus of the stories. (Like Robin Hood, he may be a composite of many figures).
Dragons are myth. Actually, it seems likely that they're derived from accounts of large constricting snakes.

See the SW article on Dragons for more details.

The parallels may therefore be closer than you think.

Personally, I'd like to hear more about Pilate. Did he have a parrot for example? And a blind eye ...

[Dr Adequate]

Fundies love to point out flood myths in a wide varity of cultures; well, dragons are highly cross-cultural, and with a rekable degree of similarity. This is also something that fundies love to claim, in case you hadn't noticed. The Bible references dragons several times (in the KJV, anyway).

Eastern and Western dragons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon)have several common characteristics not accounted for intermingling of myths. More fundie propaganda. They really don't, apart from being reptilian.

You also underestimate the ability of memes to spread through Eurasia. The secret of silk, for example, got from East to West despite being a Chinese state secret. Or there's the puzzle of the broken bamboo:

Now given a bamboo 1 zhang (10 chi) high, which is broken so that its tip touches the ground 3 chi away from the base. Tell: what is the height of the break?

Now this puzzle managed to find its way from China to Europe via India and the Middle East with no difficulty (the bamboo became a tree along the way, and the units changed, but the figures 10 and 3 remained exactly the same).

[jimtron]

What is the best evidence for Jesus (the person, not the god)?

[Z]

I exist. And I bet my post count is higher than Jesus'.

[Paul]

Please search buzz lightyear's posting history (http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=14323)to check this out.That, sir, is particularly unnecessary; you want people to think, not scoop their own brains out with a rusty ice cream spoon.

[plumjam]

Jesus, I hope this thread doesn't drag on.

[The Atheist]

Plus. In the past people have found huge fossilized bones that must have belonged to dragons. The best we have for JC is his death shroud that shows him to have long arms like a monkey and a curiously narrow face. :boggled:

Dragons were reptilian with wings. Do we know of any reptiles which had wings?

Absolutely.

Did people 2643 years ago know that those winged reptiles existed?

No.

Ergo, dragons clearly existed. There are plenty of obvious reasons why no fossils or bones have been found - we know from contemporary writing that dragon's blood was highly acidic. Clearly, once the decompsition began, the acidic nature would rot the bones quickly.

There is no evidence for dragons.
Except the Komodo variety.

You're wrong, and while the answer is pedantic, it is exactly the same one christians and theists use, so it's perfectly valid.

Written testimony is evidence. Not very believeable evidence perhaps, but it must count as evidence. People claim Jesus performed miracles, people claim that dragons existed.

Oh. I see what you did there.

I don't like it TA. Someone existed who was the focus of the stories. (Like Robin Hood, he may be a composite of many figures).
Dragons are myth.

Nope, that fails as well.

I'd bet you millions that if you create a time machine and return to Judea around the year 30, you'll find any number of blokes wandering around in long dresses with their goats who are named Yeshua, or the wog equivalent of that.

Sure, Jesus & Robin Hood may be based on real people. Dragons may be based on real animals, as Dr Adequate notes.

Actually, it seems likely that they're derived from accounts of large constricting snakes.

Sure. Then again, we know how a glimpse of a deer's arse can look like a seven-foot sasquatch, so in a time when all sorts of myths abounded, it might be difficult to pin it down, as it's probably pretty hard to decide which 2000-year old femur might have been Jesus' (And wouldn't that gut Catholics if we could!)

This is also something that fundies love to claim, in case you hadn't noticed. The Bible references dragons several times (in the KJV, anyway).

I have one of those. Half price, it was.

More fundie propaganda. They really don't, apart from being reptilian.

Reptilian, with large mouths and teeth, large, long & skinny. Much of European mythology refers to dragons as worms, so I think the similarities are good enough.

As SkepticWiki notes:

In appearance, the Chinese dragon is serpentine in form, has four legs and no wings.

You also underestimate the ability of memes to spread through Eurasia.

No I don't, but it's also irrelevant. I used one example because I didn't think it necessary to list Mayan, Australian, African, Polynesian and all the other cultures with dragon myths.

Dragon belief was widespread long before the carpenter got hatched through the self-repairing hymen.

That, sir, is particularly unnecessary; you want people to think, not scoop their own brains out with a rusty ice cream spoon.

No, and I've been unfair to buzz, pooh-poohing his beliefs.

How many threads are there on this forum that we must be respectful about divine beliefs, that JREF is not an atheist organisation, that christians may be skeptics?

Upon weighing the evidence, I find buzz actually has more on his side than Herr RatZZinger.

Jesus, I hope this thread doesn't drag on.

Have we started a thread for worst pith attempt of the month?

That's awful.

:bgrin:

[Dr Adequate]

Sure. Then again, we know how a glimpse of a deer's arse can look like a seven-foot sasquatch, so in a time when all sorts of myths abounded, it might be difficult to pin it down ... The earliest writing make it quite clear that they were snakes.

Reptilian, with large mouths and teeth, large, long & skinny. Much of European mythology refers to dragons as worms, so I think the similarities are good enough. I don't see that their mouths or teeth are particularly large for their size.

As for being long and skinny, what models did they have? Lizards, snakes, crocodiles ... it's not as though they'd seen a Triceratops or something.

As SkepticWiki notes:

In appearance, the Chinese dragon is serpentine in form, has four legs and no wings. Whereas the medieval European dragons tended to have two legs and wings. No taxonomist would place them in the same family.

[JoeTheJuggler]

The earliest writing make it quite clear that they were snakes.
Or salamanders or worms.

But back to the evidence: I've seen maps that say, "Here there be dragons!" I've never seen one that said "Here's where God is."

The number of places that claim to be "God's country" notwithstanding. . . .

[The Atheist]

The earliest writing make it quite clear that they were snakes.

Ho hum. Yes, they were serpents, but since serpents don't fly, have wings or legs and don't breathe fire, those add-ons came from somewhere, most likely from mis-identification or bad eyesight with a lot of hyperbole.

I don't see that their mouths or teeth are particularly large for their size.

Large animal, large teeth.

That usually makes it more dangerous than a small animal with small teeth.

If a great white shark was only a foot long, it wouldn't be all that scary, would it?

As for being long and skinny, what models did they have? Lizards, snakes, crocodiles ... it's not as though they'd seen a Triceratops or something.

Yes, and Jesus is usually represented in western representations as a fair-skinned, European-looking bloke with a halo, despite the fact that we was a swarthy bloke with black beard and Middle-Eastern features.

But western representations of dragons which pre-date fossil discovery look remarkably like pterosaurs.

I must get buzz to come and show us some early drawings of the rainbow serpent, some of which are tens of thousands of years old. They look a lot like real critters, too.

Whereas the medieval European dragons tended to have two legs and wings. No taxonomist would place them in the same family.

Taxonomy of mythical creatures doesn't conform to taxonomy in biology, now you're just being silly. I don't believe gods have much in the way of biological taxonomy going for them, either. The Hindu bloke has an extra set of arms and is corporeal, while the christian one is a ghostly, invisible-thingy. They clearly cannot be of the same family, yet they're both gods.

You could also add various other gods around the world which don't bear any resemblance to other gods.

[Dr Adequate]

Or salamanders or worms. Linky?

[Dr Adequate]

Large animal, large teeth. Quite so. Which means that we don't have to look far for the reason for this particular alleged similarity between Eastern and Western dragons.

Yes, and Jesus is usually represented in western representations as a fair-skinned, European-looking bloke with a halo, despite the fact that we was a swarthy bloke with black beard and Middle-Eastern features. I don't see how this is an answer to my point: which is that given that East and West both invented reptilian monsters, they'd have made them skinny, having no non-skinny models. on which to base them.

But western representations of dragons which pre-date fossil discovery look remarkably like pterosaurs. Ho yes? Do you have any evidence for this?

All those I've seen have birdlike or batlike wings: a pterosaur wing is quite distinctive, having a hand about halfway down the leading edge, the remainder of the membrane being supported by an enormously extended little finger.

Taxonomy of mythical creatures doesn't conform to taxonomy in biology, now you're just being silly. I was just pointing that out as a way of saying that they're not really all that similar.

In any case, aren't you meant to be arguing that they're not mythical?

[JoeTheJuggler]

Linky?
Sorry--I don't know where I've read that.

Do you have a source for saying they were clearly snakes?

[Tsukasa Buddha]

That is the greatest idea I've ever read on this forum.

:bigclap

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Do snakes have legs?
Gen.3:14 implies that they did before it was cursed to crawl on its belly, and now there is proof once again that the Bible is without error. Hebrew University researchers have found fossilized snakes in Israel that have two small, but anatomically complete hind legs. The findings which are regarded as quite revolutionary have aroused much debate among scientists. More and more findings are confirming the Bibles authenticity. P.T.L.

http://www.shofarministries.net/newsletter0101.htm


:boggled: P T L :D

[buzz lightyear]

In response, I am developing a argument that there is more evidence for the existence of dragons than anything godly, be it Jesus, his grow-back-your-cherry mummy, or the sky-daddy himself.

So, remember, next time some BAF christian talks about evidence for his sky-daddy and his son, point them here.

W. T. F. :jaw-dropp

"Tread softly young Lightyear, me smells a trap" :boxedin:

[Dr Adequate]

Sorry--I don't know where I've read that.

Do you have a source for saying they were clearly snakes? Did you read the SW article on Dragons? See the section on "ancient sources".

Heck, I've got two sodding saints on my side, if you can't trust a saint, who can you trust?

[plumjam]

Have we started a thread for worst pith attempt of the month?

That's awful.

:bgrin:

Yeah, it was terrible. I kind of prefer the terrible ones.
Very good idea for an award, I reckon it would be hilarious. Could call it the Mith Awards. :boxedin:

[The Atheist]

I don't see how this is an answer to my point: which is that given that East and West both invented reptilian monsters, they'd have made them skinny, having no non-skinny models. on which to base them.

Well, aside from serpents, they didn't really have any models, fire-breathing, flying repltiles being relatively rare.

Ho yes? Do you have any evidence for this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M%C3%BCnster_wawelski.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stgeorge-dragon.jpg

All those I've seen have birdlike or batlike wings: a pterosaur wing is quite distinctive, having a hand about halfway down the leading edge, the remainder of the membrane being supported by an enormously extended little finger.

Yes, the wings are markedly different, but the general appearance of dragons seems to be quite similar - reptilian, wings, legs, sharp teeth, large mouths.

I was just pointing that out as a way of saying that they're not really all that similar.

Being literal, probably not, but we are talking about dragons, and it's clear that human representation of animals isn't always that exact. You know exactly what early dinosaur drawings are like - not the same as current offerings, and those inaccurate drawings were made with the benefit of fossils, a luxiry not available to dragon-hunters.

In any case, aren't you meant to be arguing that they're not mythical?

No, where the hell did you get that idea?

Check out the title - I'm claiming there is more evidence for them than the sky-daddy, his virginal chickie and their inter-species offspring.

W. T. F. :jaw-dropp

"Tread softly young Lightyear, me smells a trap" :boxedin:

Not here, mate, although your expertise is welcome. Post one of the old, old pics of the rainbow serpent, will you?

[buzz lightyear]

Not here, mate, although your expertise is welcome. Post one of the old, old pics of the rainbow serpent, will you?

You had better be careful heading down this avenue of research TA, you might just stumble on some "truth".

Anyway my 'image host' file is full and I haven't been able to delete any to download any old rainbow serpent pics, other than this one.

If you know how to delete pics let me know.
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1432349973764ed17d.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=15298)

This pic is of an aboriginal cave painting that is supposed to be 6,000 years old.
The interesting point, is that the serpent has flailing appendages comming from its head. These appendages are also represented in images of dragons in Asian artwork.

[The Atheist]

You had better be careful heading down this avenue of research TA, you might just stumble on some "truth".

Possible, but I doubt such truth will involve dragons...

Anyway my 'image host' file is full and I haven't been able to delete any to download any old rainbow serpent pics, other than this one.

If you know how to delete pics let me know.

Yeah, sometimes the delete button fails. Just use Photobucket or Flicka.

This pic is of an aboriginal cave painting that is supposed to be 6,000 years old.
The interesting point, is that the serpent has flailing appendages comming from its head. These appendages are also represented in images of dragons in Asian artwork.

Thanks for that, I'll wait to see some more when you get organised for it.

[jimtron]

What is the evidence for the historicity of Jesus, other than the Gospels?

[buzz lightyear]

Possible, but I doubt such truth will involve dragons...



LOL, twenty years ago "truth" for me was simply how much horsepower I could get out of a Harley Davidson shovelhead motor.
It just depends what "truth" you are looking for.

Anyway I did the photo bucket thing and loaded a couple more pics.
http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:_e7XaisfyrvKIM:http://www.thelightisgreen.com/Chinese%2520dragon%252001.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.thelightisgreen.com/Chinese%2520dragon%252001.jpg&imgrefurl=http://thelightisgreen.wordpress.com/2007/07/&usg=__ggYp9zot0VQBWhsfEj8zw2jDUJw=&h=431&w=640&sz=109&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=_e7XaisfyrvKIM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchinese%2Bdragon%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%2 6rls%3DDDAU,DDAU:2007-38,DDAU:en-GB%26sa%3DX) http://s631.photobucket.com/albums/uu34/earnestgiles/th_rainbowserpent2_0002.jpg

Beside the head appendages there is an obvious similarity "attitude" in the depictions.
I will dredge up some Egyptian pics if you really want to do an in depth trip on this.

[The Atheist]

What is the evidence for the historicity of Jesus, other than the Gospels?

None, as far I'm aware.

I've had the argument several times that there are no contemporary records of Jesus outside of the bible and I'm sure some of the learned christians would have corrected me if such existed.

LOL, twenty years ago "truth" for me was simply how much horsepower I could get out of a Harley Davidson shovelhead motor.
It just depends what "truth" you are looking for.

I don't bother with the concept too much - I leave truth for theists. I'm happy with simple evidence.

Beside the head appendages there is an obvious similarity "attitude" in the depictions.
I will dredge up some Egyptian pics if you really want to do an in depth trip on this.

Hell, yeah. I defer to an expert anytime. You know where the pics are, go ahead and load them so I can make a better argument!

Dragons are a lot more fun than some ghosty-thing with a dead kid. And dragons are honest critters - they just want to eat you; no eternal torture and best of all, no sneaky manipulation or morality tales.

[autumn1971]

Dragons? Jesus Christ!

[JoeTheJuggler]

Did you read the SW article on Dragons? See the section on "ancient sources".

Heck, I've got two sodding saints on my side, if you can't trust a saint, who can you trust?

I stand corrected! :)

[buzz lightyear]

Dragons are a lot more fun than some ghosty-thing with a dead kid. And dragons are honest critters - they just want to eat you; no eternal torture and best of all, no sneaky manipulation or morality tales.

You got a bucket of study ahead of you TA if you want to get to grips with this dragon thing.
This is not a bad page
.http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/dragons.htm

The bit about the pearl is the part that interests me. Start tracking one of these critters and it is the essence of the pearl that becomes your goal rather than the beast. Although if you find one you will also find the other.

[Damien Evans]

A Water Dragon:

http://www.ri.net/schools/East_Greenwich/Eldredge/51151231-water-dragon.jpg

[buzz lightyear]

Hell, yeah. I defer to an expert anytime. You know where the pics are, go ahead and load them so I can make a better argument!

no sneaky manipulation or morality tales.

Don't like the morality tales, hey, TA.

They can be a bitch when you get on in life and you begin to believe that you have it all worked out.
Something about old dogs and new tricks.

Anyway the photo bucket thing sucks so I will try to find pics on the web like this one.http://www.brookesaustralia.com.au/nt/images/dask8.jpg

This depiction of a Rainbow serpent, on the ceiling of a cave in The Northern Territory is suppose to be 10,000 years old.

Havnt found any good Egyptian ones yet.

[Gandalfs Beard]

Sheesh, I definitely prefer Dragon myths to Jesus myths. But there is little substantial evidence for Dragons and even less for Jesus.

Now from a Mythological perspective, Dragons generally represented Nature Spirits, most often Volcano/Mountain Spirits or Water Spirits or some sort of amalgamation of the two. I have also heard it theorized that they represented the Land/Earth/the Continents which kind of goes along with the whole Volcano/Mountain thing. The Goddess Tiamat was also depicted as having a Dragonish form as well as a humanoid form. Marduk slew Her (that rat bastard), split her in half and created the Earth with one half and the Heavens with the other. The Dragonish part seems to henceforth in Western mythology be associated with the Earth.

A brief digression from topic: Genesis almost seems to pick up where Gilgamesh left off. Marduk after slaying Tiamat "jealously" declared himself the One True God. And I guess this isn't such a digression because henceforth the Biblical Dragon was Demonized along with the Goddess and the Horned God as Dark Creatures of the Underworld and Hell. Which accounts for the Western portrayal of Dragons as Grouchy Gits.

[The Atheist]

Don't like the morality tales, hey, TA.

They can be a bitch when you get on in life and you begin to believe that you have it all worked out.
Something about old dogs and new tricks.

Nothing like that.

Anyway the photo bucket thing sucks so I will try to find pics on the web like this one.http://www.brookesaustralia.com.au/nt/images/dask8.jpg

This depiction of a Rainbow serpent, on the ceiling of a cave in The Northern Territory is suppose to be 10,000 years old.

That is very cool. I think that's old enough that we'll say it pre-dates Euros by a considerable margin, which is all that matters at the moment.

Havnt found any good Egyptian ones yet.

No pressure.

:bgrin:

Sheesh, I definitely prefer Dragon myths to Jesus myths. But there is little substantial evidence for Dragons and even less for Jesus.

That's exactly what I said!

& welcome along.

A brief digression from topic: Genesis almost seems to pick up where Gilgamesh left off. Marduk after slaying Tiamat "jealously" declared himself the One True God. And I guess this isn't such a digression because henceforth the Biblical Dragon was Demonized along with the Goddess and the Horned God as Dark Creatures of the Underworld and Hell. Which accounts for the Western portrayal of Dragons as Grouchy Gits.

Good point - another reason to hate christians.

[The Drain]

There is a bit of written evidence of the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth outside the bible; specifically the Jewish historian Josephus.

Wiki has a few entries on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Personally I have no problem accepting that Jesus was a real man who went about preaching and teaching and generally upsetting the local authorities. If anything, it's the inconsistencies in the different accounts about him that make the story of his existence more believable (ask any modern day judge or investigating policeman faced with eye-witnesses who all tell an identical story, and they'll tell you they smell a rat). Ascending to heaven on an invisible elevator is another matter...

As to the worldwide origin of dragon stories, Mike Baillie in his book 'Exodus to Arthur' (http://www.amazon.com/Exodus-Arthur-Catastrophic-Encounters-Comets/dp/0713486813/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234979201&sr=1-1) suggests that 'dragons' as fiery creatures could be folk memories of comets making a near-pass of the earth or even hitting it. (This isn't woo - he's a proper professor! He counts tree-rings in Belfast).


ETA: My point (getting back to the OP re the fundies) is that the question of whether Jesus was a real person or not isn't important - what is important is what christians think he did next.

Did he recover from being dead, hang around for a bit, and then go up to heaven?

Or did he just die and his devastated followers made up stories about him - or perhaps did he survive the crucifixion, having passed out and been taken down, hang around for a bit with his mates and then wandered off the scene into early retirement? The latter hypotheses has a certain ring to it that I like.

[buzz lightyear]

Now from a Mythological perspective, Dragons generally represented Nature Spirits, most often Volcano/Mountain Spirits or Water Spirits or some sort of amalgamation of the two. I have also heard it theorized that they represented the Land/Earth/the Continents which kind of goes along with the whole Volcano/Mountain thing.

Ye gad! Dragons "represented the Land/Earth/Continents".
Where have I heard that before? :rolleyes:

Anyway TA, here is a pic of an "Egyptian" dragon.
This one is painted on the wall of Seti 1 tomb, about 1300bc.

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu34/earnestgiles/setiserpent_0001-1.jpg?t=1234987671

[The Atheist]

There is a bit of written evidence of the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth outside the bible; specifically the Jewish historian Josephus.

Sorry, I keep doing it - forgetting the word "contemporary". There are millions of accounts of Jeses outside of the bible, but no contemporary ones. Josephus, I've seen.

Wiki has a few entries on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Personally I have no problem accepting that Jesus was a real man who went about preaching and teaching and generally upsetting the local authorities. If anything, it's the inconsistencies in the different accounts about him that make the story of his existence more believable (ask any modern day judge or investigating policeman faced with eye-witnesses who all tell an identical story, and they'll tell you they smell a rat). Ascending to heaven on an invisible elevator is another matter...

Exactly where I stand on the subject.

As to the worldwide origin of dragon stories, Mike Baillie in his book 'Exodus to Arthur' (http://www.amazon.com/Exodus-Arthur-Catastrophic-Encounters-Comets/dp/0713486813/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234979201&sr=1-1) suggests that 'dragons' as fiery creatures could be folk memories of comets making a near-pass of the earth or even hitting it. (This isn't woo - he's a proper professor! He counts tree-rings in Belfast).

Thanks!

[jimtron]

From the Wikipedia linked to above: Nevertheless, the historicity of Jesus is accepted by almost all Biblical scholars and classical historians. James Dunn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dunn_%28theologian%29) describes the mythical Jesus theory as a 'thoroughly dead thesis'.[89] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#cite_note-88)[90] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#cite_note-89)[91] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#cite_note-90)[92] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#cite_note-91)

Is that true that almost all scholars and historians accept the historicity of Jesus? The evidence seems pretty weak to me.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

From the Wikipedia linked to above:

Is that true that almost all scholars and historians accept the historicity of Jesus? The evidence seems pretty weak to me.

Not in any attempt to derail this wonderful thread, I suggest that your statement should be modified to place the word "Christian" before the word "scholars" in the above. If you search this forum, you can find innumerable threads on this topic. :duck:

To post more on topic. If dinosaurs are dragons, then of course the tale of Saint George must be brought forward as evidence. After all, he could not have killed one if they did not exist!

Much more than you ever wanted to know at: Saint_George_and_the_Dragon