measuring soul's weight [Archive]

Corey

14th November 2003, 09:11 AM

I've heard this idea before...that the body loses between half and three quarters of an ounce at the moment of death, and over a short period of time afterwards (up to a few minutes) possibly another full ounce. I don't know how consistent this info is or if it's been studied as a real phenomenon (regardless of speculation as to the cause).

One thought immediately comes to my mind and I know I'm not the first person to bring it up in conjunction with this topic. Have the people making this observation checked for bowel and bladder evacuation? Before concluding that the sould is fleeing the body, perhaps they should check to see what else has escaped as a part of the natural process of the body dying and muscles relaxing.

Marc

14th November 2003, 09:18 AM

If a soul has weight then it has mass and is composed of matter. What is the chemical composition of a soul? Could it be produced synthetically? If it has weight then it is affected by gravity, so do people who die in the ocean stuck at the bottom of the ocean? Does falling down a well trap the soul there? Can a soul-proof box be created to contain souls? If a person is buried alive is their soul trapped underground?

Just a few interesting questions that come up from this claim

CJW

14th November 2003, 09:20 AM

I wonder how anyone could design a test for the weight of a soul this that wasn't unethical. Considering today's medical technologies, this test would have to require the removal of all life support within a reasonable estimation of the time of death. Also, in order to measure such a small change in weight, the scale would have to be very sensitive and would therefore be sensitive to body movements that could taint the results.

How could any one be sure that the change in wieght wasn't consistent with normal fluctuations in body weight that occur before death?

Chris

juninho

14th November 2003, 09:42 AM

Only a suggestion but the average male adult lung capacity is 6 litres. One litre of air weighs 1.3g. Therefore, that's 7.8g for starters or about 0.2 ounces. And wouldn't the oxygen in the bloodstream be used if there was no breathing, i.e. before they become brain-dead.

I'm no medical expert tho'.

Corey

14th November 2003, 10:02 AM

Marc...the answer to all your questions is a resounding "Yes!", of course. You really need to watch more ghost movies man, come on. :D

hammegk

14th November 2003, 10:06 AM

If materialists/atheists didn't set up strawmen stuffed with red-herrings what would they have to knock down? :D

BNiles

14th November 2003, 10:51 AM

I think that Corey & Juninho are on the right path here. The first two things that happen when a person dies (other then the obvious) is bowel and lung evacuation. I think the reason for differences in postmortem weight loss is due to the varying amount of "non-body" matter present in each of us.

Another claim that I’ve heard on this subject is that wristwatches stop working at the time of death. I don’t buy this though. Has anyone heard of this, or have any info about it?

Corey

14th November 2003, 11:46 AM

I'd also keep in mind, as mentioned, all of the logistical problems of measuring a person's weight, down to fractions of an ounc at the TIME OF DEATH. Not just the actual problem of having someone on a scale as they die, presumably with a DNR order, but the sensitivity required to make that kind of measurement and all the factors and variables that could throw it off.

That aside, much of the data presented on the webpage given previously, and probably similar "studies" if there are any, show a pretty inconsistent stream of data. Some bodies lost weight, in different amounts and at different times or multiple times in different amounts...some gained weight...some lost then gained, some gained then lost, etc, etc. The thing that bothers me about it is that the data which directly contradicts the hypothesis or is very incosistent with it, is discounted, considered a bad measurement, an abberation, etc. There's so many variables and inconsistencies involved in a theory like this, even apart from the trouble with keeping the environment of the research controlled, it's a pretty huge leap to think any data overwhelmingly supports the hypothesis.

CJW

14th November 2003, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by BNiles
...The first two things that happen when a person dies (other then the obvious) is bowel and lung evacuation. I think the reason for differences in postmortem weight loss is due to the varying amount of "non-body" matter present in each of us.

...

The bowel evacuation shouldn't make a difference as long as the waste is still on the scale. Lung evacuation would have to be accoutned for, though.

Interesting Ian

14th November 2003, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by barfly
Can anyone provide me some links on that subject?
I'm in a dispute right now with some believers in existence of soul's mass and I can't find a link to opposing arguments.

Thanks in advance

Got to say I disagree with my fellow believers. Souls have mass?? :confused: They're playing into the materialists hands by supposing so.

Interesting Ian

14th November 2003, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by Marc
If a soul has weight then it has mass and is composed of matter. What is the chemical composition of a soul? Could it be produced synthetically? If it has weight then it is affected by gravity, so do people who die in the ocean stuck at the bottom of the ocean? Does falling down a well trap the soul there? Can a soul-proof box be created to contain souls? If a person is buried alive is their soul trapped underground?

Just a few interesting questions that come up from this claim

Yes, playing into the materialists hands as I stated above! :D LOL

Corey

14th November 2003, 12:18 PM

That's an excellent point. I suppose it would depend on how they took the measurements. Having a person laying on a scale as they die is fairly problematic for a lot of reasons. Loss of waste matter could account for a loss of weight if they weighed someone within a short amount of time before death and then put them on the scale again after they were pronounced dead. The air being expelled from the lungs after death (corpses "groaning", heard those stories numerous times) could be a reasonable cause for any kind of weight loss, but exactly how much that weight would be and if it is anywhere close to the claims made by proponents of the soul theory, I have no clue personally.

That aside, even without providing ANY medically explainable reason for a real loss of body weight at the time of death as an alternative to the soul theory, I don't think they've managed to reasonably establish that there IS a loss of body weight at the time of death in the first place. The data is extremely inconsistent and limited, no specifics of how exactly measurements were taken and under what conditions. Infact it's noted that there is a noticeable weight gain in some cases. I still don't see how they could accurately measure such a small drop in weight accurately, in a controlled situation, while taking measurements before, up to, at and directly after the time of death. I doubt that anyone could perform a controlled, objective study on this hypothesis ethically and on the scale required to have any usefull data. Even if you could, just by what I've read so far, unspecific as it was,I'd suspect you'd find there's probably not enough consistency to support it.

billydkid

14th November 2003, 12:34 PM

One has to wonder how this notion makes any sense even to believers? I thought the soul was spiritual, nonphysical - how on earth does it have mass???

Corey

14th November 2003, 12:38 PM

There are as many different types of "believers" as there are anything else...and for some, apparently, it would seem to validate their belief if they could somehow "prove" the soul phyiscally existed. Now, even if that study did prove anything, it would only prove the body lost weight, not that it had a soul. Of course for a lot of people, evidence that COULD support a theory and no concrete evidence to completely DISPROVE it, is proving it.

Marc

14th November 2003, 01:00 PM

But they probably don't think of it that way. They think of the soul as spiritual, without weight, but latch onto the story of weight loss on death because it can be considered proof of the existance of a soul. It doesn't have to make sense, just support their belief.

Then again in Scientology they are taught how bad thoughts have actual mass that can be measured.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

14th November 2003, 02:42 PM

The soul weighs 21 grams according to the new movie that hits the theatres on Nov. 21.

I have to agree with Ian: What a preposterousity!

~~ Paul

Yahweh

14th November 2003, 02:49 PM

Beleth

14th November 2003, 02:50 PM

If the soul weighs 21 grams, and a human zygote weighs less than that at conception, then life couldn't possibly begin at conception.

Abdul Alhazred

14th November 2003, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Marc
If a soul has weight then it has mass and is composed of matter.

Not necessarily. Energy has mass, too.

What is the chemical composition of a soul? Could it be produced synthetically?

It happens all the time at seances. :D

I think they'd better define "soul" before weighing one.

It's entirely possible that a body loses a few grams of mass at death due to outgassing or something like that.

athon

14th November 2003, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by Marc
If a soul has weight then it has mass and is composed of matter. What is the chemical composition of a soul? Could it be produced synthetically? If it has weight then it is affected by gravity, so do people who die in the ocean stuck at the bottom of the ocean? Does falling down a well trap the soul there? Can a soul-proof box be created to contain souls? If a person is buried alive is their soul trapped underground?

Just a few interesting questions that come up from this claim

I've used this concept in a few short stories, and would love to work a novel on the idea. Synthetically produced souls - wouldn't that be perfect for somebody who is just a little naughty in life, and would love to get into Heaven with a clean 'slate'?

Athon

jimmygun

14th November 2003, 05:51 PM

My brother in law's mother died and they had a mass for her soul so yeah, her soul has a mass (a couple of times actually).

pupdog

14th November 2003, 07:36 PM

Well, I've gotten more religious since I was in college and boy, let me tell you, my soul has really pumped up! I weighed about 150 then--and since that time my soul has gained about 50 pounds.

Eos of the Eons

15th November 2003, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by Beleth
If the soul weighs 21 grams, and a human zygote weighs less than that at conception, then life couldn't possibly begin at conception.

:D LOL!!!

Interesting Ian

15th November 2003, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons

Beleth
If the soul weighs 21 grams, and a human zygote weighs less than that at conception, then life couldn't possibly begin at conception.

:D LOL!!! [/B]

Beleth, I think you mean consciousness rather than life? Anyway, I question whether they would believe a soul inhabits a human zygote. I certainly don't. There are many arguments against the idea that a soul has a weight, but that ain't one of them.

Jeff Corey

15th November 2003, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by pupdog
Well, I've gotten more religious since I was in college and boy, let me tell you, my soul has really pumped up! I weighed about 150 then--and since that time my soul has gained about 50 pounds.
You must have eaten a lot of soul food.

15th November 2003, 08:00 AM

Jeff, any particular reason why your in box always seems to be full?

Jeff Corey

15th November 2003, 08:08 AM

Ed,
It shouldn't be. I only have one message saved. How can I clean it out more than that?

15th November 2003, 08:11 AM

how about pming your email to me?

Eos of the Eons

15th November 2003, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
Ed,
It shouldn't be. I only have one message saved. How can I clean it out more than that?

Have you checked the received and sent areas? I got that your box is full too. I tried to reply to a pm. :)

Eos of the Eons

15th November 2003, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by Interesting Ian

Beleth, I think you mean consciousness rather than life? Anyway, I question whether they would believe a soul inhabits a human zygote. I certainly don't. There are many arguments against the idea that a soul has a weight, but that ain't one of them.

I guess I should explain why I found that so funny. It was a great point...

so, will they now say that the soul is a certain percentage of the body's mass? This would enable them to say that the embryo and egg and sperm have some sort of soul-immature maybe, lol.

the problem with souls is pinning down when they do begin to exist in a person. The soul does not code from the genome, so it would mean it has be in the egg and sperm too.

I used to think when I was younger that the egg and sperm would have to have some components of the life force/soul that would have to be activated when they met up. They would get this combined life force from the parents since the egg and sperm are live cells, and are made by the parents.

Course, it was just thinking, and I never believed my own speculation.

It also means that when you die, the soul would have to die with the rest of the body since it originates from the live cells from the parents.

Heh. I like making things up to explain my own questions about how the heck something could happen. This was the most logical answer I came up with.

Jeff Corey

15th November 2003, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons

Have you checked the received and sent areas? I got that your box is full too. I tried to reply to a pm. :)
I forgot how to do that.
Yet another senior moment, or maybe longer.
Iforget.

athon

15th November 2003, 08:18 PM

Could you clone a soul? I mean, does the substance that makes up a soul permeate all parts of the body? Can it be damaged? And if it can be damaged, can it repair itself? Thus, can you take a piece of somebody's soul and encourage it to grow?

BTW, anybody notice there's a movie coming out soon called '21 Grams', about this very subject. I don't know anything about it, but by the title alone I'd love to see it.

Athon

Abdul Alhazred

15th November 2003, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by athon
Could you clone a soul? I mean, does the substance that makes up a soul permeate all parts of the body? Can it be damaged?

According to my roommate from R'lyeh, a soul can be devoured and furthermore tastes real good. :p

He's on another foray into the northern suburbs right now. It seems he's gotten over his predjudice against devouring soccer moms. Soul and all, of course.

Jeff Corey

16th November 2003, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred

According to my roommate from R'lyeh, a soul can be devoured and furthermore tastes real good. :p

He's on another foray into the northern suburbs right now. It seems he's gotten over his predjudice against devouring soccer moms. Soul and all, of course.
Now THAT'S soul food.
He must be a soul man!

Iamme

16th November 2003, 06:09 PM

I'M waiting to see if it ever happens that Jeff Corey has a debate with Corey.:D

Hi Jeff.

Jeff Corey

16th November 2003, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Iamme
I'M waiting to see if it ever happens that Jeff Corey has a debate with Corey.:D

Hi Jeff.
I'm puzzled. What are you talking about?
Other than an internal dialogue, to whom else are you referring?

Iamme

17th November 2003, 06:57 PM

Jeff--Scroll up a number of posts and you will see that there is another 'Corey' dude, beside yourself! I would find it interesting if, per chance, you , as a Corey, yourself, would have to say, "
Corey...what I am getting at is...". See?:D

Lurker

20th November 2003, 10:46 AM

Anyone ever suffer through the movie "Soultaker"? It is an egregiously bad movie that always seems to be on the SciFi channel when I have nothing to do.

According to the movie, souls look like glow in the dark condoms. Really!

Lurker

Corey

20th November 2003, 10:50 AM

I was unfortunate enough to catch about 20 minutes of that flick (on SciFi)...it was definitely a steaming pile of cinema.

Loki

20th November 2003, 01:57 PM

Beleth,

If the soul weighs 21 grams, and a human zygote weighs less than that at conception, then life couldn't possibly begin at conception.
See, now here's a classic example of using theory to solve a real world issue. All we need to do to solve the abortion debate is kill and weigh pregnant women at various stages of pregnancy, and find the moment at which two souls depart. Any volunteers?

Beleth

20th November 2003, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
Beleth, I think you mean consciousness rather than life?No, I meant life.

Anyway, I question whether they would believe a soul inhabits a human zygote. I certainly don't.That's because you're not a Catholic or a Fundamentalist or any of the other various religious types who believe that life begins at conception. And it's typically the Fundamentalists who bring up this idea of the soul having weight.

There are many arguments against the idea that a soul has a weight, but that ain't one of them. Yes it is. It shows that the ideas "the soul weighs 21 grams" and "life begins at conception" are mutually exclusive. If you believe one, you cannot reasonably believe the other.

Jeff Corey

20th November 2003, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by Loki
Beleth,See, now here's a classic example of using theory to solve a real world issue. All we need to do to solve the abortion debate is kill and weigh pregnant women at various stages of pregnancy, and find the moment at which two souls depart. Any volunteers?
And then, a la Swift, butcher the carcasses and feed them to the homeless.
Not raw, boiled up with a bit of broccoli.
And save the stem cells! George Doobie needs a new frontal lobe or two , but he's in line behind Reagan and Reeves...