What is Theism if not Religion?

[orphia nay]

Reading Arthur Denton's recent thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=135717) got me thinking.

I see a lot of people disavowing religion, but at the same time stressing their belief in a creator.

I don't have any answers right now, but I thought it would be interesting to ask, "What is Theism if not religion?"

[Arkayik]

Probably boils down to definition, "devil is in the details"...

When a Theist disavows "Religion", I take it to mean they are denying affiliation/membership in an "Organised Religion". Theism does not necessitate adherence to a doctrine or dogma.

I shouldn't speak out of turn, but I'd guess that would be the dodge-and-weave...

Cheers,

Ark

[Hokulele]

Theism is simply the belief in one or more gods. Religion is generally organized around specific beliefs and rituals catering to one or more specific gods.

For example, you could believe that your lawn mower is a god, but that doesn't mean you do anything about it.


ETA: To make things even more confusing, it is possible to adhere to a religion without believing in their god(s).

[linusrichard]

ETA: To make things even more confusing, it is possible to adhere to a religion without believing in their god(s).

Or to believe in a godless religion, of course.

[six7s]

ETA: To make things even more confusing, it is possible to adhere to a religion without believing in their god(s).Not only possible but also exceedingly common (among the religulous)

[Beerina]

Or to believe in a godless religion, of course.

And that depends on what that means. :)

Spiritualism and animism and the like, believing in supernatural creatures, but not anything called a true god, would be religion.

Politics is one such thing that's not religion at all. For example, replace "for God" with "for The People", and "your reward will come in the next life" with "your reward will come 10 years from now" and they are mathematically indistinguishable. They are identical memes that grow their power by seizing control of society legally and forcing people to obey "them", and ultimately, building in them the mental worldview they are Good People for doing this, with the coincidental argument from moral intimidation for even questioning, much less leaving, the True Faith.

And even the organized thing, w.r.t. the supernatural, is just one definition of Religion. Around here, religious is commonly treated as synonymous with "anything supernatural", organized or not, gods or not.

Personally, I would not split hairs, since from a skeptic point of view, there is no difference.

[AmericanFamilyGuy]

I see a lot of people disavowing religion, but at the same time stressing their belief in a creator.

I don't have any answers right now, but I thought it would be interesting to ask, "What is Theism if not religion?"

Do you think most non-religious theists believe in a god similar to what their culture's religions believe in?

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

Religion is someone telling you what to believe, and no arguments, young man. Organized and hierarchical...ized until every detail is explained, and if you rock the boat, it's, "maybe you'd be more comfortable elsewhere."

Religion is an organization that says, "every word of the bible is true and factual, and should be followed exactly," yet, instead of using wine, as specified in the bible, they pass round grape juice at the Eucharist.

Some folks love The Boss, but would like to bypass all the rigmarole and hoopla.

That's faith.

Religion gives you a tool to show everyone how much superior you are to them. Faith reminds you that all have sinned, and that we're all in the same boat, superiority-ly speaking.

Religion gives rise to televangelists whose whole cause is, "give me money so that we can continue this amazing ministry." Faith gives rise to people who share what they have, often not much, with people in need, often quite a lot.

Religion makes you feel good because you're in God's good graces. Faith makes you feel good because you're demonstrating God's love for you by expressing your love for others.

Now, some religions are based on faith, and still extend God's love as a matter of doctrine. Other religions pretty much abandoned faith as soon as they had a mortgage payment to make.

These are personal views and have no bearing on anything but my own faith. Approach with the appropriate cautionary grain of salt.

[slingblade]

Theism is the belief in a god or gods.

Atheism is a lack of belief, or the not-belief, in a god or gods.

Theism is often, but not always, expressed through hierarchical organizations called "religions."

Atheism lacks this hierarchical organization or structure.

[This Guy]

Theism is the belief in a god or gods.

Atheism is a lack of belief, or the not-belief, in a god or gods.

Theism is often, but not always, expressed through hierarchical organizations called "religions."

Atheism lacks this hierarchical organization or structure.

You didn't read the fine print on the contract, did you?

;)

[arthwollipot]

I have got the impression that "religion" in this context means "organised religion", ie an established church with rituals, arranged worship, a standard congregation, etc.

Some people feel the need to acknowledge a deity without buying in to the whole community thing. Which I think is interesting because the community thing is what a lot of people cite as the "good part" of religion.

[godless dave]

Theism is a religious belief. It's possible to have that belief without belonging to an organized religious group, but it's still a religious belief.

[MG1962]

Theism is the belief in a god or gods.

Atheism is a lack of belief, or the not-belief, in a god or gods.

Theism is often, but not always, expressed through hierarchical organizations called "religions."

Atheism lacks this hierarchical organization or structure.

However I believe a cavet needs to be applied here. In recent times many have begun to explore their inner spiritualism outside the structure of an organised religion

[slingblade]

However I believe a cavet needs to be applied here. In recent times many have begun to explore their inner spiritualism outside the structure of an organised religion

Hence the part where I said "often, but not always." :p

[MG1962]

Hence the part where I said "often, but not always." :p

LOL true you did. But I feel in the last 50 years or so there as big quiet an upswing in this form of theism as opposed to the more structured approach of previous generation.

[Roma]

Atheism lacks this hierarchical organization or structure.

Okay Slingblade, let me get this right,
if Atheists show signs of forming an organization then they could be religious?

[orphia nay]

Do you think most non-religious theists believe in a god similar to what their culture's religions believe in?

Interesting question. Here are my thoughts so far:

First there are the skeptical theists, who only think their deity caused the Big Bang, and that was it. I fear they are using an Argument ad Populum - "lots of people believe in a god, so let's split the difference between Science and Religion".

Next: some of the people I was thinking of when I wrote the OP seem to pick and choose religious beliefs from several different religions. A lot of them would count as New Agers. (Does New Age itself count as a religion?) They get their "God" and Satan from the Old Testament religions, and their Angels from the same place, or Catholicism in particular, (while saying they're against the biblical religions). Then they pick and choose from both the OT and the NT. They sometimes refer to their god as Maya, after the Hindu concept. They believe in the ancient Egyptian "ba", or soul. They revere Native American, and Central & South American mythology, especially the Mayan Calendar woo. And so on.

Then there are the theists who are influenced by cultural religious beliefs but who don't attend church/synagogue/mosque etc or perform any rituals, and who are critical of organised religion.

I don't know which group is more populous. Again, good question.


Theism is a religious belief. It's possible to have that belief without belonging to an organized religious group, but it's still a religious belief.

Yes, I think that's where my thoughts are heading. Religion is a belief system centred on a belief in a god, so a belief in a god on its own is still religious.

[orphia nay]

Okay Slingblade, let me get this right,
if Atheists show signs of forming an organization then they could be religious?

Slingblade said "Atheism lacks this hierarchical organization or structure." [Emphasis mine.]

[Hokulele]

Okay Slingblade, let me get this right,
if Atheists show signs of forming an organization then they could be religious?


Many Buddhists do not believe in any god(s), and yet by most definitions, they are considered religious.

[arthwollipot]

Many Buddhists do not believe in any god(s), and yet by most definitions, they are considered religious.And Buddhism is most often referred to as a religion.

[Azure]

Hi

Religion is someone telling you what to believe, and no arguments, young man. Organized and hierarchical...ized until every detail is explained, and if you rock the boat, it's, "maybe you'd be more comfortable elsewhere."

Religion is an organization that says, "every word of the bible is true and factual, and should be followed exactly," yet, instead of using wine, as specified in the bible, they pass round grape juice at the Eucharist.

Some folks love The Boss, but would like to bypass all the rigmarole and hoopla.

That's faith.

Religion gives you a tool to show everyone how much superior you are to them. Faith reminds you that all have sinned, and that we're all in the same boat, superiority-ly speaking.

Religion gives rise to televangelists whose whole cause is, "give me money so that we can continue this amazing ministry." Faith gives rise to people who share what they have, often not much, with people in need, often quite a lot.

Religion makes you feel good because you're in God's good graces. Faith makes you feel good because you're demonstrating God's love for you by expressing your love for others.

Now, some religions are based on faith, and still extend God's love as a matter of doctrine. Other religions pretty much abandoned faith as soon as they had a mortgage payment to make.

These are personal views and have no bearing on anything but my own faith. Approach with the appropriate cautionary grain of salt.

Good explanation I think.

There is a huge difference between religion and 'faith.' Lots of people have religion, but not faith. And vice versa.

Theism is simply a belief in a higher being. Or that one exists. I wouldn't classify that as a religion.

[slingblade]

Okay Slingblade, let me get this right,
if Atheists show signs of forming an organization then they could be religious?

What would you call an organization made up of people who don't collect stamps? :p




(others have pointed out where you didn't get it right, so I won't. )

[six7s]

Theism is simply a belief in a higher being. Or that one exists. I wouldn't classify that as a religion.

Study is simply a belief in personal development. I wouldn't classify that as a university.

[sphenisc]

What would you call an organization made up of people who don't collect stamps? :p




(others have pointed out where you didn't get it right, so I won't. )

The Philately-will-get-you-nowhere Club?