Label me

[Meh!]

So. For my first post upon these boards, I need some clarification.

Most of you have labels. Atheist, Theist. Deist. Darwinist, Evolutionist, etc.

I don't identify myself under any of these labels. I figure though, before i start, that i best find my club.

Beliefs.

I cannot believe in the teachings of the church... any church, that i have so far encountered. Straight up story telling by men in positions of authority protecting said authority and position.

I believe in what i can touch, feel, and am told by folks much more intelligent than i am, and that make sense as i know the universe works.

Here is the catch.

My ego will not allow me to completely concede that the entire mess is just a random collection of atoms that just happen to result in my self awareness. There needs to be something.... else... or More... or why bother, with anything?

So please. label me. So i know where to stand.

[Hokulele]

Human.

[fuelair]

So. For my first post upon these boards, I need some clarification.

Most of you have labels. Atheist, Theist. Deist. Darwinist, Evolutionist, etc.

I don't identify myself under any of these labels. I figure though, before i start, that i best find my club.

Beliefs.

I cannot believe in the teachings of the church... any church, that i have so far encountered. Straight up story telling by men in positions of authority protecting said authority and position.

I believe in what i can touch, feel, and am told by folks much more intelligent than i am, and that make sense as i know the universe works.

Here is the catch.

My ego will not allow me to completely concede that the entire mess is just a random collection of atoms that just happen to result in my self awareness. There needs to be something.... else... or More... or why bother, with anything?

So please. label me. So i know where to stand.
If one label covers YOU, you are doing something wrong. Possibly more than one something.:)

[Hokulele]

Oops, I almost forgot...

Welcome to the forum!

[KingMerv00]

My ego will not allow me to completely concede that the entire mess is just a random collection of atoms that just happen to result in my self awareness. There needs to be something.... else... or More... or why bother, with anything?

So please. label me. So i know where to stand.

"Fragile"


Welcome btw.

[fuelair]

Oh, stand on your own two feet. If you are enjoying life, live it. Don't worry about a higher purpose - there isn't one, the Universe really does not care (that would be because it is very large and devoid of things the religious would like to believe - though I am not bothered if they wish to believe it - just wish they would follow through on what they like to say their religions teach, yet they can't bring themselves to do that for the most part).
Please excuse the long parenthetical, I do run on sometimes. :D

[AndyD]

An atheist, by definition, is just someone who lacks belief in a god. So, if you don't HAVE a belief in a god then you LACK a belief in a god.

Outright dismissal isn't necessary to be labelled an atheist, if labels are important to you.

You might also be agnostic, depending on whether you think it's possible to have knowledge of gods.

Oh, there's also skeptc/sceptic, believer, troofer, nutter, headcase, critical thinker, ...

[JoeTheJuggler]

An atheist is someone who is not a theist. So if you look at it as a P and not P sort of thing, you're one or the other. In another sense, an atheist is someone who makes a positive assertion of one sort or another. As such, you could be neither a theist or that strong type of atheist.

A theist is someone who believes in the existence of a god or gods.

A deist is someone who believes in a very impersonal, hands-off god (or gods). Usually thought of as a creator who set up all the natural laws, but then has no intervention in their continued workings.

An agnostic (not a term you mentioned) is someone who literally is without knowledge (usually wrt the existence of a god or gods). Careful usage suggests that agnosticism answers a different question than atheism/theism does. "Do you know God exists?" rather than, "Do you believe God exists?"

I don't like the terms "Darwinist" or "Darwinism" because they are ambiguous (http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Darwinism). In one way, the terms are used much the same was the word "allopathy" is used by homeopaths and naturopaths to describe conventional medicine. In that meaning, I reject the terms (Darwinist/ism and allopathy, that is).

I also don't like the term "evolutionist" because I don't think there is such a thing as "evolutionism" (any more than there is "gravity-ism" or "atomic-ism" to describe a person's relationship to the theory of gravity or atomic theory). (Perhaps if you mean an "evolutionist" to be an evolutionary biologist or something like that, but I don't suppose that's what it means.)

Evolution refers to both an observable fact (species change over time) and a powerful theory that explains how it happens. The theory of evolution is the central organizing principle of biology. Talk of "believing" in evolution makes no more sense than "believing" in chemistry or "believing" in physics.


My ego will not allow me to completely concede that the entire mess is just a random collection of atoms that just happen to result in my self awareness. There needs to be something.... else... or More...
I'm not sure, but it sounds like here you've set up a false dichotomy. That is, you seem to think you must either believe in the supernatural of some sort, or believe that the "entire mess is just a random collection of atoms". The physical sciences depend on their being order in the universe. If things didn't follow rules or laws, then there would be no rules or laws for us to discern through science. The theory of evolution, for example, shows that natural selection plays a huge role in choosing successful variants. It's not a random selection in the least.

or why bother, with anything?
And this again sounds like another false dichotomy--either there is something supernatural ("else or more") or there is no meaning or purpose in our human lives. I submit that there is no end to meaning and purpose you can find in your life even without believing in anything supernatural.

Another way of looking at it is this: most of the universe is a mystery to us. The more we know and learn, the more we realize we are deeply ignorant. You can bravely face that ignorance and admit, as an agnostic, that we simply don't know the answers to a lot of questions. Or you can get shallow comfort by pretending that stories we've made up (with nothing to support them) is knowledge. Most, if not all, supernatural beliefs claim knowledge that we don't really have.

If being honest takes a bit of bravery, I think it's worth it.

The most banal truth is far more sublime than the loftiest sounding lie.

[MattusMaximus]

Welcome to the Forum... meat puppet.

[KingMerv00]

My ego will not allow me to completely concede that the entire mess is just a random collection of atoms that just happen to result in my self awareness. There needs to be something.... else... or More... or why bother, with anything?

Does this strike you as a logical reason to believe in a higher power?

I'm not trying to be mean. I understand how you feel but I reject it because your argument contains several logical fallacies:

Appeal to Consequences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences)
Appeal to (self) flattery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_flattery)
Wishful Thinking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking)
Straw Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)

I don't believe in anything "more" yet I don't feel any existential terror. Hopefully, someday you will learn to accept that reality is what you make of it.

[Stone Island]

A bag of chemicals.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I'm not trying to be mean. I understand how you feel but I reject it because your argument contains several logical fallacies

Also two examples of false dichotomy that I noted.

I think getting rid of that "either there is something supernatural" or "life is random and devoid of meaning" dichotomy is immensely freeing.

BTW, Meh, I know you didn't specifically mention it, but I think some of what you're struggling with is this idea of purpose and meaning. Those are things that we humans create ourselves. It comes with a lot of brain functions that probably evolved to help us thrive as social beings (language, pattern recognition, ability and tendency to infer agency and intention, etc.)

ETA: And also--warm welcome to the forum. One Bible passage that I think is very apt right here: The truth shall set you free!

[KingMerv00]

Also two examples of false dichotomy that I noted.

I think getting rid of that "either there is something supernatural" or "life is random and devoid of meaning" dichotomy is immensely freeing.

I tried to cover the false dichotomy by pointing out that the "devoid of meaning" issue was a straw man.

[arthwollipot]

So please. label me. So i know where to stand.You certainly sound to me like a Deist. I know you rejected that label though.

[Meh!]

Also two examples of false dichotomy that I noted.

BTW, Meh, I know you didn't specifically mention it, but I think some of what you're struggling with is this idea of purpose and meaning. Those are things that we humans create ourselves. It comes with a lot of brain functions that probably evolved to help us thrive as social beings (language, pattern recognition, ability and tendency to infer agency and intention, etc.)

ETA: And also--warm welcome to the forum. One Bible passage that I think is very apt right here: The truth shall set you free!

Thanks for the warm welcome.

I understand the above paragraph, and you are right, there is the question of purpose and meaning. I see it in a more than selfish manner, however. and as such, didn't want to attach the ideal of morality to the question. (who wants to be seen as selfish? :) )

I do fear the... nothingness.. of the hereafter. As much as the facts as I know them scream at me that when the last neuron fires, it is the end. If I am honest with myself, i yearn for something .... more.

Perhaps i will end up one of those creepy uncles who "finds god" in his old age to stave off the impending doom. Gimme a god, any god will do.

[KingMerv00]

I do fear the... nothingness.. of the hereafter. As much as the facts as I know them scream at me that when the last neuron fires, it is the end.

Why be scared? Why is the nothingness of death any worse than the nothingness before birth?

If I am honest with myself, i yearn for something .... more.

I yearn for a million dollars but nothing short of evidence can convince me I have it.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I understand the above paragraph, and you are right, there is the question of purpose and meaning. I see it in a more than selfish manner, however. and as such, didn't want to attach the ideal of morality to the question. (who wants to be seen as selfish? :) )
Again, morality is something we humans create or do with our brains. As with language, there's an innate capacity and a conventional aspect to it. But morality doesn't require supernatural beliefs either.



I do fear the... nothingness.. of the hereafter. As much as the facts as I know them scream at me that when the last neuron fires, it is the end. If I am honest with myself, i yearn for something .... more.
Yes, self-preservation is definitely something that is strongly favored by natural selection. Couple that with our capacity for looking at ourselves from the outside (what is usually called self-awareness) and abstract thought, and it leads us to ponder our own non-existence.

I guarantee you, though, that believing in something else won't make that fear go away. At best, you can use those beliefs to hide from it for a while. I think most believers have to go through life and struggle with this stuff too.

Perhaps i will end up one of those creepy uncles who "finds god" in his old age to stave off the impending doom. Gimme a god, any god will do.
I dunno. For me, I find the older I get, the easier time I have accepting that there are plenty of things I'll never be able to see and do. I certainly hope I live to a ripe old age and die when I'm completely ready to let go. But it doesn't matter all that much. Once I'm gone, I'm not there to experience non-existence.

A little over a year ago I had surgery on my vocal cords. Going under the general anaesthesia was quite an experience. It was like a switch was flipped, and I just wasn't there, and then I was waking up. (I had no sense at all of the passage of time. It was some 3 and half hours later, but to me, it felt like I was swooning into oblivion, and then instantly waking up.) I'm sure I wasn't brain dead, so I suppose there was some subjective experience going on, but I have no sense of it or recall of it whatsoever. To me, that's what being dead will be like---I won't be there to experience. (Now the dying part is another story!)

[Roma]

Welcome to the Forum... meat puppet.

Yes I like that one !

When I joined the forum I was sooo serious, just like you.
After awhile you'll lighten up a bit as your brain cells reduce in number.

Welcome meat puppet, you could add a great avatar with that. ;)

[Roma]

Welcome to the Forum... meat puppet.

Yes I like that one !

When I joined the forum I was sooo serious, just like you.
See how serious, I don't even have a label, just my name.
After awhile you'll lighten up a bit as your brain cells reduce in number.

Welcome meat puppet, you could add a great avatar with that. ;)

[wardenclyffe]

Welcome, Meh!.

Here's a question. How would your life be different if you DID believe in something supernatural? What would your purpose be then? Would it be to get to heaven? If so, how is that any less selfish than any other goal you set for yourself?

To me, it seems the people who are the most religious are the most desperate to get the best seat at the heavenly table. It's still extremely selfish.

Charity and the golden rule and all are great ideas. If they make you feel good, you should embrace them. That's selfish, but everyone's a winner. If you are doing it to get into heaven, that's also selfish. So what's the difference between something supernatural and "random collection of atoms?"

Ward

[Horatius]

So. For my first post upon these boards, I need some clarification.

Most of you have labels. Atheist, Theist. Deist. Darwinist, Evolutionist, etc.

I don't identify myself under any of these labels. I figure though, before i start, that i best find my club.

Beliefs.

I cannot believe in the teachings of the church... any church, that i have so far encountered. Straight up story telling by men in positions of authority protecting said authority and position.



Anti-religious


I believe in what i can touch, feel, and am told by folks much more intelligent than i am, and that make sense as i know the universe works.



Materialist



Here is the catch.

My ego will not allow me to completely concede that the entire mess is just a random collection of atoms that just happen to result in my self awareness. There needs to be something.... else... or More... or why bother, with anything?



Egotist.



So please. label me. So i know where to stand.



Form a line with you fellow ARMEs on the left, thank you.

[RayG]

So please. label me.

Unique? There's no one else on earth exactly like you in every detail, right?

Why the worry about labels and fitting in? The older I've gotten the less I care what people think of me or how they label me.

RayG

[Correa Neto]

Waterbag.

[ZirconBlue]

Meh!

Welcome. I love the user name. I like how you put an exclamation mark at the end. It appears that you are emphatically blasé. Perhaps that is your label.

[LibraryLady]

Ugly bag of mostly water. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Soil)

[ExMinister]

My ego will not allow me to completely concede that the entire mess is just a random collection of atoms that just happen to result in my self awareness. There needs to be something.... else... or More... or why bother, with anything?

So please. label me. So i know where to stand.

You can be a skeptical agnostic. There. Done. You don't know and you know you don't know but you can still have hope. You say "or why bother with anything?" and that seems to indicate that for you, holding onto the hope that there is something more might be important, and there's nothing wrong or illogical in that.

Me, I think if I had to have a label, it would be agnostic, too. And a skeptical one, who suspects now that no one else knows either, despite their claims. But it doesn't matter to me so much if it turns out that I am just a random collection of self-aware atoms.

[Ashles]

Do Not Tumble Dry or Iron

[Ocelot]

So please. label me. So i know where to stand.

You might try pantheist, agnsotic or ignostic on for size. These aren't mutually exclusive.

[TX50]

I think "RayG" nailed it. Why do you need a label? Just go your own way
and stuff everyone else. The world needs more free thinkers (precious few
of them around - even here). (Plus you can snigger at all the "I'm a
<whatever-it-is>ist" wallys wasting their lives arguing among themselves.
Double win! :) )

[fuelair]

Yes I like that one !

When I joined the forum I was sooo serious, just like you.
See how serious, I don't even have a label, just my name.
After awhile you'll lighten up a bit as your brain cells reduce in number.

Welcome meat puppet, you could add a great avatar with that. ;)

And don't beat your puppet. The theists say that's naughty (well, depending on which theists):jaw-dropp.

[Ron_Tomkins]

So please. label me. So i know where to stand.

You don't need people to label you so that you know where you stand

That's something you will find out for yourself over the course of the years, if you do decide to set sail for that quest.

[Blackadder]

Stardust

[fuelair]

Hoagy Carmichael

[blutoski]

So. For my first post upon these boards, I need some clarification.

Most of you have labels. Atheist, Theist. Deist. Darwinist, Evolutionist, etc.

I don't identify myself under any of these labels. I figure though, before i start, that i best find my club.

Beliefs.

I cannot believe in the teachings of the church... any church, that i have so far encountered. Straight up story telling by men in positions of authority protecting said authority and position.

I believe in what i can touch, feel, and am told by folks much more intelligent than i am, and that make sense as i know the universe works.

Here is the catch.

My ego will not allow me to completely concede that the entire mess is just a random collection of atoms that just happen to result in my self awareness. There needs to be something.... else... or More... or why bother, with anything?

So please. label me. So i know where to stand.

Fideist fits pretty well. Or just Deist.

[blutoski]

There needs to be something.... else... or More... or why bother, with anything?

Regarding this particular thought: you may want to think about exploring other moral frameworks.

Humanists believe that people can choose to have purpose, rather than assume a secret purpose has been thrust upon us and that we have to flail about hoping we fulfill it.

For the most part Humanists appear to be strongly motivated to improve the quality of human life.

[yy2bggggs]

So please. label me. So i know where to stand.
Actually, that is the biggest error in my opinion--standing where a label is. Choose your own label, but don't define yourself by it. That's what I do. I call myself an atheist simply because it communicates the least number of misconceptions.

[wardenclyffe]

yy2bggggs, you have an awesome avatar.

Ward