eye for an eye

[Magyar]

While on a personal level I wouldn't mind dropping the acid in this guys face, especially since he still sees nothing wrong with what he did. I recognize what a slippery slope that is and why I recognize that the law is sucha great civilizer.

Just another example of how Islam/Iran have still not developed the social and moral maturity to be part of the civilized world.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/13/AR2008121302147.html

[Roma]

The 196th rule on the The Code of Hammurabi : "If a man put out the eye of another man, his eye should be put out." [An eye for an eye] predates Islamic law and Mose's Ten Commandments.
I don't see where a slippery slope could be argued since the laws in Iran are very specific.
I don't see where those laws are "great civilizers" either since they are repressive to social maturity.
The man who threw acid in that woman's face is educated and knew the laws, he understood the consequences of his actions before he commited the crime so I have no problem with the decision to carry out his sentence, that is to blind him aswell.

[MG1962]

The man who threw acid in that woman's face is educated and knew the laws, he understood the consequences of his actions before he commited the crime so I have no problem with the decision to carry out his sentence, that is to blind him aswell.

That is a very good point. Personally I dont agree with the punishment. However not being a citizen of Iran, it is really none of my business either.

As an Australian living in the US. I encounter laws that seem odd or strange to me. But the old saying, when in Rome, do as the Romans, applies. I have no right or implied moral high ground to judge these rules. Simply if I dont like them, either leave, or dont do the crime

[Hokulele]

I have no right or implied moral high ground to judge these rules. Simply if I dont like them, either leave, or dont do the crime.


Bingo.

[lionking]

Simply if I dont like them, either leave, or dont do the crime

How easy is it to leave Iran?

It is an uncivilised punishment, but Iran will never listen to western views on matters like this.

[Undesired Walrus]

That is a very good point. Personally I dont agree with the punishment. However not being a citizen of Iran, it is really none of my business either.

As an Australian living in the US. I encounter laws that seem odd or strange to me. But the old saying, when in Rome, do as the Romans, applies. I have no right or implied moral high ground to judge these rules. Simply if I dont like them, either leave, or dont do the crime

So you feel you have no moral high ground to judge the practice of slavery in other countries?

[westprog]

While on a personal level I wouldn't mind dropping the acid in this guys face, especially since he still sees nothing wrong with what he did. I recognize what a slippery slope that is and why I recognize that the law is sucha great civilizer.

Just another example of how Islam/Iran have still not developed the social and moral maturity to be part of the civilized world.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/13/AR2008121302147.html

I've no particular liking for the brutal application of Sharia law - but in some countries people are killed by pouring poison inside them. This is based not on acting in a humane manner, but on the sensibilities of the spectators.

I don't say that Iran should not be criticised. It's a brutal, unequal society run by gangs of thugs. But - there are similar bad things going on elsewhere.

[Safe-Keeper]

The 196th rule on the The Code of Hammurabi : "If a man put out the eye of another man, his eye should be put out." [An eye for an eye] predates Islamic law and Mose's Ten Commandments.I don't believe anyone said otherwise, did they? Or were you refering to the 'slippery slopes' argument?

I have no right or implied moral high ground to judge these rules.I've never, ever understood this kind of radical cultural relativism...

Simply if I dont like them, either leave, or dont do the crime....nor this bizarre and nauseating blame-the-victim philosophy. If I carry out a punishment, I am responsible for making sure my actions are justifiable and fair. Criminals, just like you and me, are people and should be afforded common sense and justice.

Would you have this kind of mentality if it applied to you, too? What do you think about a $500 dollar fine for driving two miles per hours over the posted speed limit? What? Not fair? Too harsh a fine for mild speeding? But... surely if you don't like it, you can just leave America, or not go over the posted speed limit, right:rolleyes:?

[MG1962]

So you feel you have no moral high ground to judge the practice of slavery in other countries?

I may be wrong, however I am not aware of any countries in the world were slavery is legal, or used as a state sponsored punishment of a crime. So with that in mind, connecting moral judgemet of slavery and other countries legal codes would appear mute.

[MG1962]

...nor this bizarre and nauseating blame-the-victim philosophy. If I carry out a punishment, I am responsible for making sure my actions are justifiable and fair. Criminals, just like you and me, are people and should be afforded common sense and justice.

Would you have this kind of mentality if it applied to you, too? What do you think about a $500 dollar fine for driving two miles per hours over the posted speed limit? What? Not fair? Too harsh a fine for mild speeding? But... surely if you don't like it, you can just leave America, or not go over the posted speed limit, right:rolleyes:?

I fear my comment is taken out of context. I am a visitor to a country, if I dont like the laws the country instigates, then I should leave. The town I live in has a law that says I can not kiss my wife passionately in public. What are my options. Push the limits, break the law, all to prove a point. Or accept it as something I dont really like, but clearly the citizens of the town do like

Do I as an individual guest of a town have the right to inflict my cultural settings on these people

[Lonewulf]

There's a difference between "following/breaking a law" and "agreeing/disagreeing with a law". And yes, I honestly do believe that we have a right to bring our cultural backgrounds into other countries; for instance, during the Nanking massacre, a few imposed their own cultural settings saving the local Chinese from the Japanese invasion, at risk of their own life. Amnesty International attempts to do a similar thing, through a different method. I am all for people like this.

And yeah, there are areas where there is slave trading. It may not be "legal" in certain areas, but there's not like there's much local law enforcement. There have been some that have worked to end such slavery; in some cases, by buying the slaves and setting them free (which funds the slave traders, so it's a very controversial move). Is this not imposing one's cultural values on another?

There are some laws I would willfully break. For instance, before the civil war in the United States, many U.S. citizens broke the law in the North, when they were demanded, by law, to return any escaped slaves back to their proper owners in the South. Many broke that law willfully. If someone disagreed with that here, I would have little respect for them. Back then, the question was not "moot", nor do I think that the question is "moot", especially with grossly draconian rules, in other countries. For small rules and restrictions, though, that's a different issue.

In this particular case (to get back to the example in the OP), I'm not sure what I feel; most of it is emotional. I can only think about the poor woman that was blinded, more than the man that was punished. That is possibly a failing.

[slingblade]

would appear mute.



...moot. :)

[Almo]

Just another example of how Islam/Iran have still not developed the social and moral maturity to be part of the civilized world.

I don't know where you're posting from, but I hope it's not the US. As long as the death penalty exists in the US, we're (I'm a US citizen in Canada) no better.

[Lonewulf]

I don't know where you're posting from, but I hope it's not the US. As long as the death penalty exists in the US, we're (I'm a US citizen in Canada) no better.

The death penalty in the U.S. is carried out as humanely as possible, and on very very few people, for the worst of crimes. While I disagree with it, it's a lot different than tearing someone's eyes out, or torturing them to death. In this case, the assailant involved would not be sentenced to death.

Your argument seems to follow an absolutist perspective; unless you get rid of all questionable punishments, you are not at liberty to discuss any questionable punishments. That doesn't seem to hold in many other discussions. Because the U.S. is going through an economic crisis, for instance, does that mean that they have no right to talk about the economic crisis in the Soviet Union, before it collapsed?

[Magyar]

I don't know where you're posting from, but I hope it's not the US. As long as the death penalty exists in the US, we're (I'm a US citizen in Canada) no better.

Oh, that's just nonsense imho. I DO believe that there are some crimes and some people who based on their crimes deserve to die. I do believe that a society has the right through the legal process to hand out this punishment. Now the current process that is used in the US is flawed and I do recognize that and because of that I have issues with it.

BUT, this is a different problem from this case in Iran. I also think that the Hammurabi doesn't apply here or more precisely what is being done is a perversion of it! The importance of Hammurabi is that it codified a set of rules and punishments for crimes by the state. It's the basis for "justice for all" instead of revenge and honor killings and family vendettas which is what the govt of Iran is legitimizing here and is certainly enabling people to find it acceptable to kill women because they were raped or talked to a boy from the wrong sect.

Several posts talked about the idea that it's their culture and who are we to judge. I am sorry but that's just nonsense. There is a difference between cultures and some are not as good as others. If that makes me a racists so be it. But I can not accept that a culture based on some woo book and the alleged teachings of sa child molesting, illiterate local warlord from the 6th century is equivalent to one based on rational scientific thought. This does not mean the that the former is without some redeeming value nor that the latter is perfect. But to excuse their barbarism as some kind of "cultural thing" is laughable.

Where dos that stop? Couldn't I explain ANY behavior, if enough people participate in it, as a cultural thing and then it will make it all OK?

[Undesired Walrus]

I may be wrong, however I am not aware of any countries in the world were slavery is legal, or used as a state sponsored punishment of a crime. So with that in mind, connecting moral judgemet of slavery and other countries legal codes would appear mute.

800,000 people in Burma are currently enslaved. (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/GC29Ae02.html)

[MattusMaximus]

eye for an eye

... and the whole world goes blind.

[Gaetan]

The eye for an eye law

In his sermon on the mountain the Christ says that the persecuted go to heaven. The devil never wants that you go to heaven, to keep you in the purgatory or in hell he wants to dispense justice to you. He told to Moses, when a offence is done to someone, dispense him justice by doing the same fault he caused. This is the eye for an eye law. This is clear that when you are persecuted, you don’t have the right to go to heaven by persecuting or revenging of the person who have been wrong with you. You can’t have access to heaven and the justice. That is another proof that the father of christian is not God. In hell, everybody demand for justice but in heaven the peoples who claim for justice are few. To go to heaven you have to be infinitely just towards others but not demand justice for yourself. According to the Christ and the true God, you have to forgive and even pray for those who persecute you. This doesn’t mean that you should let injustice happened, on the contrary you have to stop the injustice and this is your duty to do so but the ones who do injustice should’t be punished. Punishing the injustice it is to want to harm others and that keep you from the access to light worlds.

Gaétan

[Magyar]

The eye for an eye law

In his sermon on the mountain the Christ says that the persecuted go to heaven. The devil never wants that you go to heaven, to keep you in the purgatory or in hell he wants to dispense justice to you. He told to Moses, when a offence is done to someone, dispense him justice by doing the same fault he caused. This is the eye for an eye law. This is clear that when you are persecuted, you don’t have the right to go to heaven by persecuting or revenging of the person who have been wrong with you. You can’t have access to heaven and the justice. That is another proof that the father of christian is not God. In hell, everybody demand for justice but in heaven the peoples who claim for justice are few. To go to heaven you have to be infinitely just towards others but not demand justice for yourself. According to the Christ and the true God, you have to forgive and even pray for those who persecute you. This doesn’t mean that you should let injustice happened, on the contrary you have to stop the injustice and this is your duty to do so but the ones who do injustice should’t be punished. Punishing the injustice it is to want to harm others and that keep you from the access to light worlds.

Gaétan

Well this is nice babble, but what does it mean and what does it have to do with anything.

First. since the alleged teaching of your alleged god is passed down to you by people who HAVE/HAD ZERO problems in going WAY BEYOND an eye for an eye - see
Crusades, witch burnings, and the inquisition - which was in large part an eye for an eye xians persecuting jews for killing jeebus - how can you claim ANYTHING that resembles accuracy to the meanings of these things.


Second - You can’t have access to heaven and the justice.
In other words the god you worship is a capricious, irrational megalomaniac who hands out punishment and reward on a purely arbitrary basis. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Gaetan]

Those who obtained justice had their reward, that is your choice but you can't have access to heaven and justice at the same time, that is one or the other.

Gaétan

[Twiler]

In hell, everybody demand for justice but in heaven the peoples who claim for justice are few.

In christian heaven, justice demand you.

[Gaetan]

In christian heaven, justice demand you.

Jesus Christ is clear, you should offer the other cheek and pray for the ones who persecute you. If you don't agree with it you are not christian.

Gaétan

[Magyar]

Those who obtained justice had their reward, that is your choice but you can't have access to heaven and justice at the same time, that is one or the other.

Gaétan

So I am a GOOD xian, and I follow EVERY rule laid out to me as a xian and I live my life as I am told I have to as a Xian.

When I die I can not go to heaven BECAUSE THAT would be justice and I can't have both! (is there a smiley for MORON?)



I NOTE of course that you use weasel words like justice and reward and NEGLECT you address questions raised but what else in new from the religiously deluded.

[Magyar]

Those who obtained justice had their reward, that is your choice but you can't have access to heaven and justice at the same time, that is one or the other.

Gaétan


So Again, NOT that I expect any kind of coherent answer or anything, then you are claiming that any form of justice in courts or law on earth prohibits you from going to heaven. Are you really that insane?

[Gaetan]

The eye for an eye law : Mt 5.38-42 Lc 6.29-30 Mt 18.21-22

Matthew 5
38 Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man would go to law with thee, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him two.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy:
44 but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you;
Luke 6

29 To him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and from him that taketh away thy cloak withhold not thy coat also.

Matthew 18

21 Then came Peter and said to him, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? until seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times; but, Until seventy times seven.

This is fundamental, the courts are not from God but from evil. If you don't agree with what Jesus said your are not christian that's all.

Gaétan

[Twiler]

I'm not christian, I don't follow Jesus, and I don't care what the bible says.

I have this thing called 'moral integrity' where I do what I believe to be right, rather than what will cause a supposed deity to reward me.

[jmcvann]

It is an uncivilised punishment, but Iran will never listen to western views on matters like this.

Never? That's a little pessimistic, don't you think? Christians went through a "kill all the infidels" period. Most of them seemed to get over it.

[Gaetan]

I'm not christian, I don't follow Jesus, and I don't care what the bible says.

I have this thing called 'moral integrity' where I do what I believe to be right, rather than what will cause a supposed deity to reward me.

No you don't do what it is right but what the propaganda and your own benefit told you what is right. This is what is right:

Matthew 5
38 Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man would go to law with thee, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him two.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy:
44 but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you;

Gaétan

[Twiler]

No you don't do what it is right but what the propaganda told you what is right.

Gaétan

What specific propaganda are you referring to?

[Lonewulf]

No you don't do what it is right but what the propaganda and your own benefit told you what is right.

Uh... I could say the exact same thing about you, really. Well, not the "your own benefit" thing, I'll admit. You don't do what is any benefit to anyone at all, really.

[Gaetan]

What specific propaganda are you referring to?

This Propaganda:

Lv 24 An Eye for an Eye

17(Q) "Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death. 18(R) Whoever takes an animal’s life shall make it good, life for life. 19If anyone injures his neighbor,(S) as he has done it shall be done to him, 20fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; whatever injury he has given a person shall be given to him. 21(T) Whoever kills an animal shall make it good,(U) and whoever kills a person shall be put to death.

The society is in the hand of evil. The justice system is all wrong and in the hand of the devil.

Gaétan

[Lonewulf]

That's an... interesting summary of the average justice system in the average developed country.

[Twiler]

This Propaganda:

Lv 24 An Eye for an Eye

17(Q) "Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death. 18(R) Whoever takes an animal’s life shall make it good, life for life. 19If anyone injures his neighbor,(S) as he has done it shall be done to him, 20fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; whatever injury he has given a person shall be given to him. 21(T) Whoever kills an animal shall make it good,(U) and whoever kills a person shall be put to death.

The society is in the hand of evil. The justice system is all wrong and in the hand of the devil.

Gaétan

I don't agree with this. So, I have NOT been affected by this 'specific propaganda'.

And if I help another person, how does that benefit me?

[Holler Hoojer]

The prescriptions in Leviticus 24 can be seen in at least two distinct lights.

Many Christians view the Bible as absolute and literal and understand it as requiring an eye for an eye. This "black or white" view can result in harsh or inflexible punishment.

Many Jewish scholars view the Bible, particularly the Torah, as history, a guide, and commentary. They often use additional interpretative material, e.g., Midrash. The oft posed question then becomes this: If a blind man were to put out his neighbor's eye, how could he be punished? Since there is no way to put out the blind man's eye, there must then be another way to understand the passage; that way is equitable compensation.

Under the compensation doctrine, if a man puts out his neighbor's eye, he may be required to pay compensation, i.e., money damages, but the amount of damages may not exceed the value of an eye. While this might seem somewhat unsentimental, it is the way many accident insurance policies are written, i.e., a finger is worth $5000, a hand worth $25000 and so on.

There may still be punishment required for the aggressive action, but the in toto response must not exceed the offense.

[Gaetan]

Twiler wrote

I don't agree with this. So, I have NOT been affected by this 'specific propaganda'.

In christian heaven, justice demand you.

So you are affected by this propaganda.

And if I help another person, how does that benefit me?

If you touch no benifit you receive god's blessings who rise your soul

Gaétan

[Dymanic]

The 196th rule on the The Code of Hammurabi : "If a man put out the eye of another man, his eye should be put out."
I take it as an encouraging sign of progress that they're willing to extend that to include punishment for putting out the eye of a woman.

[Twiler]

Twiler wrote


[snip]


So you are affected by this propaganda.



If you touch no benifit you receive god's blessings who rise your soul

Gaétan

The 'christian heaven' thing was a joke. Are you not familiar with 'russian reversal'?

I don't believe in 'god's blessings'.

[Lonewulf]

If you touch no benifit you receive god's blessings who rise your soul

Gaétan

What?

Sorry, my "gibberish" translator is broken.