Atheists: do you "pray"? or continue religious rituals?

[maddog]

I know this may seem like a stupid question, but I'm quite curious.

I now call myself a "Catholic Atheist" (to those among whom I am "out" as an atheist, which is another matter altogether), because, to paraphrase the common saying, "you can take the boy out of the church, but you can't take the church out of the boy" -- the Catholic church is still "my people" or "my tribe", so to speak. I still find great value in many of the things the church does, and particularly in some of the rituals.

I'm thinking particularly of two: Baptism and "saying grace" before meals. Okay, so, if I don't believe in God, why did my sons get baptised? Well, there are a variety of reasons, but one that I found important is the ritual aspect of it -- baptism is the ritual of welcoming the new baby into the community. Community meaning all our family and friends, and naturally many or most of them are also Catholic.

And for meals, saying grace is like the ritual beginning of the meal, a moment to appreciate the togetherness of the family or friends who are gathered.

I dunno... These rituals still work for me, but I'm struggling a bit with the specific words that get used. So... what do you do? What works for you? Inquiring minds want to know!

[Bikewer]

I attend such rituals (marriage, baptisms, etc) that are important to my friends and family. I don't "participate"...

Praying seems utterly pointless, though frequent and prolonged cursing has it's own joys...

[Denver]

Just out of curiosity, did your ritualizations re-emerge for you once you had your own family, after being in remission for a while?

A "falling away" while growing up, and then returning to religious practices once a person has children of their own, is a very common phenomenon. I suppose there are different reasons for it, though a couple seem to be to insure a known morality framework is presented to the child, and also to let the child know about god 'just in case'...

[maddog]

Just out of curiosity, did your ritualizations re-emerge for you once you had your own family, after being in remission for a while?

No, I was almost always very active in my church. It was how I was raised and such -- like I said, "my tribe", complete with all the rituals and such that I was always comfortable with. As I grew up and learned more and more, I had an ever growing set of questions and inconsistencies to figure out and contend with. The hard part was blending the belonging with the beliefs - these are my people, but I disagree about x, y, and z. Now, it's "these are still my people, but NOT my beliefs".

Still, it was working with and through the church that led me to look beyond the church for answers, that led me to atheism, so I very much respect the church for helping me to grow - even when that growth was away from the church. I realize this is not a universally positive experience, but for me it was.

[Denver]

... As I grew up and learned more and more, I had an ever growing set of questions and inconsistencies to figure out and contend with. The hard part was blending the belonging with the beliefs - these are my people, but I disagree about x, y, and z. Now, it's "these are still my people, but NOT my beliefs".

That's also a common pattern and key point: the theology people learn as a child eventually collides with their growth into their age of reason. It's at this point that several directions seem to be possible (barring intellectual laziness or rebelling for the sake of rebelling): ignore the age of reason and protect the theology you already have; toss the theology and walk in the ways of your maturing reason; use the new perspectives from your maturing reason to reexamine the theology, and let your understanding grow from there, whatever that leads to.

Still, it was working with and through the church that led me to look beyond the church for answers, that led me to atheism, so I very much respect the church for helping me to grow - even when that growth was away from the church. I realize this is not a universally positive experience, but for me it was.

Sounds like you're on that third path... I tend to think that is the most honest one to take.

[PrincessIneffabelle]

Being an atheist, I lack belief in anything that requires (or even just hears) prayers. I can wish for stuff, talk to myself, and meditate all I want -- no gods or spirits needed. I understand that other people may take their assorted prayers quite seriously, especially during certain rituals, but I respectfully and unobtrusively refrain.

Social reinforcement through the practice of rituals is just a little too tribal for my tastes. My husband and I got legally married mostly for property/income/benefits reasons. We had a short informal secular wedding 18+ years ago. When my son was born, my Methodist mom wanted to have him baptized (in the church that she never actually attends). I said that it was fine with me, as long as we didn't have to make any specific religious promises. Stuff like that is way overrated IMO, but I get that other people really dig it. Different strokes and all that.

That being said, we do like to celebrate happy events, be they large or small. We just don't require specific words, symbolic actions, or hallowed ground (unless you consider Olive Garden or Mimi's to be Holy Places!).

[Hokulele]

I don't pray, but I will be quiet and behave myself if others are doing so in a formal setting (weddings, etc.). If I am at someone's house or out to a restaurant with someone who says grace, I will quietly wait until they are finished before grabbing food. If I am eating with a group of Japanese people in a semi-formal setting, I will say "Itadakimasu" with them ("Let's eat!").

[slingblade]

No, I don't pray. I try to stay away from even wishful thinking.


I will attend weddings and funerals in churches, but I respectfully (as much as possible) don't participate in the religious stuff. If they call for a prayer, I quietly stand there, and wait.

I don't make a thing out of my atheism, but I won't lie about it if asked, unless the person asking could harm me in some way, like firing me from a job. Then I'll lie, and big-time. Now. I learned that one the hardest way.

[Piscivore]

If I'm playing a game or something and I want a particular randomized result to go a certain way I wll repeat it in my head to "make it happen"- does that count?

"C'mon, roll a six, six, six six sixsixsix. Big Money, no whammys!" :)

[Third Eye Open]

I don't pray. I remember when I first realized there was no gods, I would find myself doing it just out of habit, things like 'c'mon god, let me make it to work on time!" I would correct myself, and now, my inner monologue is not with some super being but with myself, such as 'C'mon! We can make it to work on time!'
Still the same mental pleading, but no belief that it actually has any effect on the outcome.

At social gatherings, such as Christmas dinner, I will hold hands with family members and bow my head and say 'amen' when it is done. Thankfully my family knows enough to not ever ask me to lead the prayer, I don't know what I would say if I did! Probably something like "Thanks to Dad for working so hard to buy us this food, and thanks Mom for cooking it up so deliciously! Thanks everyone else for being here!" With no mention of a god.

[Safe-Keeper]

Sometimes I say to myself things like "please work" or "please don't be late". I direct them at nothing in particular, and I know they have no effect, but it helps me feel better there and then. I sometimes cross my fingers, too, for the same reason.

[TraneWreck]

I have very close family friends who are Jewish. Every Friday I go eat dinner at their house, I put on a beanie, and sing their songs with them. I don't believe anything about their religion (and to be honest, neither do they), but it is a nice practice that brings family and friends together on a regular basis.

I really don't understand the consternation people experience when dealing with atheists. I don't appreciate being forced to pray or observe silly religious practices (which happened a great deal during my athletic career), but that coercion is completely different from voluntary ritual.

But by definition, no atheist can actually pray themselves, but they can be polite while people pray around them. Or they can point out the futility of the practice when necessary. It's just another balancing of social graces, no different from political discourse.

[Hokulele]

If I'm playing a game or something and I want a particular randomized result to go a certain way I wll repeat it in my head to "make it happen"- does that count?

"C'mon, roll a six, six, six six sixsixsix. Big Money, no whammys!" :)


That's not praying, that is using the Law of Attraction.

[Piscivore]

That's not praying, that is using the Law of Attraction.

In terms of effectiveness and reason, what's the difference?

[Third Eye Open]

Sometimes I say to myself things like "please work" or "please don't be late". I direct them at nothing in particular, and I know they have no effect, but it helps me feel better there and then. I sometimes cross my fingers, too, for the same reason.

Yes, I think the reason that this makes us feel better is the origin of religions.

We live in a chaotic and unpredictable world. In the past it was even more unpredictable, because we had no idea what caused things such as storms droughts or famine.

Praying, or doing a magic ritual, gives the person doing it a sense of control over the chaotic world they are in. A feeling that they are doing something to affect it. So when the storm ends, the man praying or the witch doctor dancing can say "I did that. I had an effect on the world I live in." A very powerful and comforting feeling.

[Hokulele]

In terms of effectiveness and reason, what's the difference?


Which group of people will point and laugh at you. :cool:

[cwalner]

If I'm playing a game or something and I want a particular randomized result to go a certain way I wll repeat it in my head to "make it happen"- does that count?

"C'mon, roll a six, six, six six sixsixsix. Big Money, no whammys!" :)

Ha!. Reminds of a joke a Blackjack dealer told me. What is the difference between people praying in church and people praying in a casino? In the casino, they actually mean it.

[SusanB-M1]

I voted for 'No, but I understand the appreciation of ritual'. Have you found out about Humanist Celebrants? I certainly do not pray; even when I still had some vague idea that there was some, even vaguer, idea that there was a God there I did not pray because to think of said God listening or having any effect made no sense at all.

I feel quite strongly however that ritual and order are natural and necessary for our species. Maybe, by the time this century is into its second half, there will be a Humanist organisation which encompasses ritual while being clear about the illogicality of God.

[Tamazon]

I don't make a thing out of my atheism, but I won't lie about it if asked, unless the person asking could harm me in some way, like firing me from a job. Then I'll lie, and big-time. Now. I learned that one the hardest way.

You got fired for being an atheist? Wouldn't that be some form of religious persecution? Why do religious groups get to cry foul when they are discriminated against but atheists do not? Did you fight it?

[Dave_46]

<snip>
I will attend weddings and funerals in churches, but I respectfully (as much as possible) don't participate in the religious stuff. If they call for a prayer, I quietly stand there, and wait.
<snip>

Me too. Mrs Dave is Christian, I am non religious. We respect each others views.

I was at the service for my uncles funeral a couple of weeks ago, and I find that the singing of Abide With Me still affects me emotionally. I can't understand it, but it does.

Dave

[Tanstaafl]

I don't pray, but I will be quiet and behave myself if others are doing so in a formal setting (weddings, etc.). If I am at someone's house or out to a restaurant with someone who says grace, I will quietly wait until they are finished before grabbing food. If I am eating with a group of Japanese people in a semi-formal setting, I will say "Itadakimasu" with them ("Let's eat!").


Okay, I'm going to have to take up praying and invite you over for dinner, just so I can see you be quiet and behave yourself!

[Hokulele]

Okay, I'm going to have to take up praying and invite you over for dinner, just so I can see you be quiet and behave yourself!


It would be worth it to watch you praying! :D

[jj]

Everyone has to believe something.

I believe I'll have a pint of Guinness. :p

[Tanstaafl]

It would be worth it to watch you praying! :D


Plus I make a great shrimp creole.

[SphereGuy]

I've gone to church to pick up women, does that count?

My sons are both avid church goers and I respect their religion and I'm actually proud of them for standing up to me for what they believe in. We never really breach the subject but when it does come up I just present my point of view and let them make their own choice. I don't mind religion, although it ticks me off at tax time to see what they've officially donated throughout the year. I've explained my point of view on this as well, but they are adults and make their own decisions.

[Piscivore]

Sometimes I say to myself things like "please work"...
In that respect I worship my VW on a regular basis, prayers, pleas and negotiations included. Though one of the tenets of that particular faith is "Trust in Bosch, but carry a full toolkit and spares".

Which group of people will point and laugh at you. :cool:

:)

[ponderingturtle]

I have sort of mixed feelings on this. Sure ritual can be deeply meaningful to people, but I don't understand why an atheist would pray just because of that.

So it seems that the OP goes beyond the rituals that have meaning in themselves enough to justify them, and continues broader rituals either to avoid conflict in his community or some such thing.

[Chupacabras]

... (unless you consider Olive Garden ... <snip> to be Holy Places!).

A-HA!

[roger]

My answer is just "no". None of the poll options applied to me. I don't particularly understand the OP reasons for participating, but I don't think he is stupid, either, just that we are wired differently. Color me bemused at most.

[Wolfman]

Personally, I have no interest or inclination towards praying, or any sort of rituals as associated with my past Christian beliefs. I don't miss them, and see no purpose in them.

That being said, I know of quite a few Humanists who still greatly value the rituals associated with religion, and have Humanist 'services' (as mentioned by SusanB-M1 above). There are detailed instructions written for various ceremonies, and individuals who are 'licensed' to oversee weddings, funerals, etc. as Humanist officiants.

While I personally see no point in it (and in fact felt quite silly the one time I attended such an event), it is very obvious that others find great value and comfort in it. And I don't really have a problem with that.

[JoeTheJuggler]

In that respect I worship my VW on a regular basis, prayers, pleas and negotiations included. Though one of the tenets of that particular faith is "Trust in Bosch, but carry a full toolkit and spares".

Is that from the Gospel According to Muir (http://www.amazon.com/Keep-Your-Volkswagen-Alive-Anniversary/dp/1562614800)?

In high school I was a member of a small sect of this faith we called "The Wolfsburg Pack". I'm an apostate now, alas! I couldn't handle the vow of poverty of heat in the wintertime.

[Piscivore]

Is that from the Gospel According to Muir (http://www.amazon.com/Keep-Your-Volkswagen-Alive-Anniversary/dp/1562614800)?
:D

In high school I was a member of a small sect of this faith we called "The Wolfsburg Pack". I'm an apostate now, alas! I couldn't handle the vow of poverty of heat in the wintertime.

Heh, it was 80F here today.

[Miss_Kitt]

I am also a "recovering Catholic", but after 2 decades I'm all done with guilt, thanks. I do not pray, but I am respectfully quiet when others do; and we do have our own little rituals, they're just not religious in nature. For example, while my daughter does not say her prayers at night, my husband and I together sing a little song to her that we've sung every night since she was about 3 months old...part of me fears that she will soon decide she's outgrown it (she's 9-1/2 now), part of me thinks she never will.

I was surprised to find, at my brother's father-in-law's (and mother-in-law's, they died two days apart) funerarl Mass that I still knew all the responses, and some of them came out automatically. It was an odd experience, watching that familiar and yet long-gone ritual with different eyes.

We also have some fairly fixed ritual behavior having to do with watching baseball games. The Seattle Mariners have a moose for a mascot, and for 14 years I've had a moose puppet in a Mariners shirt that comes to games with me. Mini Moose is on my hand, clapping and cheering (in his own little moosely voice) when the Mariners bat; if the M's score a run, the Moose needs to "high-five" the people around us. The Moose is not on my hand when the opposition bats. While I realize that the puppet has no effect on what happens on the field, those rules are automatized. It adds a note of fun to the game for me, and for the people (especially kids) around us.

It also gives me "puppet immunity": You can say about anything if you A) Have a puppet on your hand, moving; and B) Use a goofy voice. Thus the Moose can say, "Hey, are you texting the game to your friend?" to the teenager with the ubiquitous cellphone, and they will laugh and put the phone away--whereas my suggesting that they're missing a great game will only annoy them. Strange, but true.

Anyway, ritual is an ancient and universal human practice; find what works for you. I personally think that it would be disrespectful for me to mouth prayers I don't believe in.

And, in answer to an earlier post, you bet your arse you can get fired--or not be promoted--if you let the office know you're an atheist. Too many people think that Atheist=No Morality. And, AFAIK, you have no legal grounds, since you're not being discriminated against for your religious beliefs.

My thoughts, as always, Miss Kitt

[Piscivore]

We also have some fairly fixed ritual behavior having to do with watching baseball games. The Seattle Mariners have a moose for a mascot, and for 14 years I've had a moose puppet in a Mariners shirt that comes to games with me. Mini Moose is on my hand, clapping and cheering (in his own little moosely voice) when the Mariners bat; if the M's score a run, the Moose needs to "high-five" the people around us. The Moose is not on my hand when the opposition bats. While I realize that the puppet has no effect on what happens on the field, those rules are automatized. It adds a note of fun to the game for me, and for the people (especially kids) around us.

It also gives me "puppet immunity": You can say about anything if you A) Have a puppet on your hand, moving; and B) Use a goofy voice.

I may have just the religion for you (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html). (read the next comic also :))

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Yes.

Well, perhaps you define prayer as necessarily being directed to someone or asking for physical help. For me it is a practice of compassion, meditation, intention, and other things.

[fromdownunder]

If I visit a friends place, and they rub blue mud on their belly, I will do the same simply out of respect that I am a Stranger ina Strange Land. I will not believe that it helps, but there appears to be no point in being deliberately provocative when I am a guest in another place.

Following somebody elses rituals seems to be a pretty minor thing in most circumstances, and not worth getting worked up over.

Norm

[Ladewig]

It also gives me "puppet immunity": You can say about anything if you A) Have a puppet on your hand, moving; and B) Use a goofy voice. Thus the Moose can say, "Hey, are you texting the game to your friend?" to the teenager with the ubiquitous cellphone, and they will laugh and put the phone away--whereas my suggesting that they're missing a great game will only annoy them. Strange, but true.


Wait. Are you saying I can go to church and tell people their prayers are a waste of time if I wear a puppet on my hand? I am so there.

[Ladewig]

And for meals, saying grace is like the ritual beginning of the meal, a moment to appreciate the togetherness of the family or friends who are gathered.


Then why not replace saying grace with a comment that you appreciate the togetherness of the people who are gathered? That makes a hell of a lot more sense than thanking God for something He had nothing to do with.

[P.J. Denyer]

A lot of our friends will now invite my wife and I over for the post church party for things like baptisms and weddings (unless they're really close family); when unavoidable (funerals etc) I attend but keep quiet. That said, if anyone raises the subject afterwards they're fair game!

[Bikewer]

It's been pointed out by neuroscientists that there are structures in the human brain that respond directly to rituals and such. This is readily observable in even secular societies, from "happy birthday" celebrations to sports enthusiasts.
There is speculation that it's disfunctions affecting these centers that are responsible for obsessive/compulsive disorders.

[Rasmus]

If I visit a friends place, and they rub blue mud on their belly, I will do the same simply out of respect that I am a Stranger ina Strange Land. I will not believe that it helps, but there appears to be no point in being deliberately provocative when I am a guest in another place.

There is something *seriously* wrong with the notion that somebody is being "deliberately provocative" for simply not taking part in somebody else's rituals.

If that sort of things offends you I will either happily leave your place and never ever interact with you again, or, if it's not actually your place and you only think it is (like your home town, country, etc. pp.) I shall point and laugh and ridicule you like you deserve.

Following somebody elses rituals seems to be a pretty minor thing in most circumstances, and not worth getting worked up over.

If that is so, then why should not following them suddenly be such a big deal?

[maddog]

Thank you all for sharing your wisdom, experiences, and humor -- I really appreciate all y'all's responses!

I'd like to join Hokulele and Tanstaafl for shrimp creole, and Miss Kitt for a ballgame anytime the M's come to Baltimore (or vice versa, if I ever get to Seattle with the O's). I know all about "puppet immunity" -- I've used that (or a version thereof) for years!

Let me clarify a little -- it's not so much that I "pray" as in talking to or believing in any supernatural being or deity -- it's more that I appreciate the rituals. Dinner can't start until after "saying grace" any more than a ballgame can start until after the national anthem or you can blow out the candles until after "Happy Birthday" has been sung.

I guess what I would really like is a way to transition to non-theist (but not "anti-theist", if you know what I mean) rituals that still work acceptably well for My Precious Wife, as well as for other friends and family members among whom I may or may not be "out" as an atheist. Or, not even transition, but just sometimes have a turn with different (non-theist) words at the pre-dinner ritual. As much as I don't want to be, or feel, excluded from a "prayer" ritual, I also wouldn't want to exclude others... I'm sure you all can understand what I mean by that.

I'm also not trying to proselytize my atheism. I took a long path, and definitely a growth path, in getting here, that came with the backing and support of my loved ones. I would like to nudge others toward growth, but not force them in my direction if that is not right for them. I dunno. Maybe I'm over-thinking it all?

Anyway, thanks for all your thoughts! I appreciate it.
Maddog

[The Atheist]

I now call myself a "Catholic Atheist" ...

Ah, you're Irish, that explains everything.

If I'm playing a game or something and I want a particular randomized result to go a certain way I wll repeat it in my head to "make it happen"- does that count?

"C'mon, roll a six, six, six six sixsixsix. Big Money, no whammys!" :)

Never for six, but my $75 parlay yo? Damn right.

There is something *seriously* wrong with the notion that somebody is being "deliberately provocative" for simply not taking part in somebody else's rituals.

Correct.

It's pretty easy to deliberately provoke, though. I reserve that for rare occasions; always goes down a treat, the old deliberate disrespect of deeply-felt traditions.