No, I'm Not Angry at God

[Wolfman]

A copy of a recent post on my new blog:

This last week, I was talking with a fellow (quite a nice guy), and the topic of religion came up. He’s a born-again Christian. I’m an ex-Christian, atheist, and Humanist. We talked and debated our beliefs, and for the most part it was quite amicable, but there was one part that really kinda’ pissed me off. It’s a pet peeve of mine. That is, whenever Christians realize that I’m an ex-Christian who’s rejected Christianity and become an atheist, the immediate response is A) “Why are you angry with God?” or B) “Why are you rebelling against God?”.

Now, I understand…I grew up brainwashed to think that those who abandoned Christianity were doing so out of rebellion and/or anger (and if confronted with an atheist, I would have responded in the same manner). And certainly, there are plenty of ex-Christians who are quite angry at their previous religion (often for very justifiable reasons). But this automatic assumption that it must be an emotional or personal reaction against something in Christianity really irks me.

I have tried in the past to explain this, but have generally not done a very good job. However, after my discussion with him, while thinking about this, I came up with what I thought was a very good illustration of my ‘conversion’ to atheism (or my rejection of Christianity, however you want to look at it).

Think of a mother and her son. She loves her son dearly, and always believes the best of him. Then, one day, her son is arrested and charged with murder. He tells her that he’s innocent, and she believes him whole-heartedly. But, as more and more evidence is presented, and the situation becomes clearer and clearer, she comes to the realization that her son is guilty. She doesn’t want to believe that; it causes her great distress, and she tries her best to find evidence of his innocence. However, in the end, regardless of her personal feelings, regardless of her personal wishes, regardless of her personal comfort…she must acknowledge that her son is guilty.

Nobody would accuse her of thinking her son guilty because she was angry with him, or she was rebelling against him. It would plainly be a ludicrous accusation.

Well, the road to atheism was the same for me. I was a devout, born-again Christian. I went to Bible college to learn more about my faith, and why Christians believe what they believe. However, as I studied the Bible, and church history, and theology, I started having more and more questions. Inconsistencies, self-contradictions, logical fallacies, and a whole plethora of other evidence that indicated that there were problems with my beliefs. I delved deeper, not because I wanted to prove my beliefs wrong, but because I wanted to find a way to explain or counterbalance what I had found. But the deeper I looked, the worse the problem became. I could easily be a Christian so long as I didn’t understand it much, or if I was willing to turn a blind eye to numerous problems and questions (under the rubric of “you’ve got to have faith”).

But if I were to face the evidence directly, and honestly, the only conclusion I could draw was that Christian beliefs made no sense, and were not justifiable. Further examination of other religions led me to a similar conclusion. And thus, reluctantly, I became an atheist.

And before someone chimes in and says, “But you’re still rebelling against God” — a timeworn Christian cliché based on the belief that rejection of God automatically translates to rebellion — while I understand your perspective, mine is quite different. I once believed in Santa Claus, but I no longer do. I once believed in the tooth fairy, but I no longer do. I once believed in the Easter Bunny, but I no longer do. The fact that I no longer believe in Santa/tooth fairy/Easter Bunny doesn’t mean that I’ve rebelled against Santa/tooth fairy/Easter Bunny. In fact, I’d argue that it is logically impossible to rebel against something that you don’t believe exists in the first place.

Oh, and one more thing. My initial reluctance to abandon my Christian faith should not be mistaken for a desire or wish to return to that faith. Having rejected it, not only do I find that the world (and my life) makes much more sense, but I am happier and more fulfilled. Today, I look back at my past beliefs in amazement at some of the stuff that I actually swallowed, and the intellectual gymnastics I had to engage in on a regular basis in order to try to reconcile my beliefs with the real world.

[Shrike]

in amazement at some of the stuff that I actually swallowed,

You were a catholic? :D

But seriously, good post.

[Silly Green Monkey]

I think it has to do with religion (Christianity in my experience) being considered a personal experience, a personal connection. We're supposed to be Christian because we feel it, so if we're not Christian anymore it must still be feeling. Emotion is paramount in the Christian religion. And, isn't the opposite of peace and love thought to be anger and hate?

[P.J. Denyer]

I like to explain it via a metaphore, I think religion is much like smoking. It makes some people happy and I'm all for their right to smoke in places where it won't effect other people, but I object when their smoke is inflicted on me and I don't want to smoke myself. This doesn't mean that I hate or am rebelling against Joe Camel or the Marlborough Man.

[This Guy]

I think it has to do with the tendency for true "Believers" to not understand that anyone can simply not believe in their God.

If you are convinced that something exist, others must know it exist also. If they claim to disbelieve, they must be rebelling against, or have some problem with God.

[Wildy]

Why are you angry at God, Wolfman? :)

[Foster Zygote]

I blame Touched By An Angel.

[joobz]

I blame Touched By An Angel.
Where did the angel touch him?

[Wolfman]

Why are you angry at God, Wolfman? :)
Because, if God exists, that means he's responsible for creating people who keep asking me stupid questions like that :D

[Tricky]

I totally understand your feelings, Wolfman. I think all of us "born again atheists" have faced this question at some time.

But let's look at it from another angle. To a Christian, what is God? As much as they claim He is real and they have a personal relationship and all that, what they really have is stories about God. Maybe some personal thought. Lots of cultural references. Lots of peer pressure. Intellectually, to them, God is what they have been taught about Him. There is no difference between God and the stories about God, since there is no real evidence for Him. Everything they know about God is derived from the overlaying of a template of religious teaching on everything else.

You have rejected that template. You are saying that everything they have learned is wrong. It doesn't matter how many times you try to explain that you cannot rebel against something you don't believe in, the fact is you have rebelled against the education that you were given.

If I had to be honest, I'd agree that I am at least a little bit angry that this unwanted education was forced on me. I am constanly annoyed that this fog of Christian indoctrination still hovers around my country, blinding so many to the clarity of rational thinking. I can love my Christian friends and relatives as much as anyone in my life, but I still wish that this fog would blow away. It annoys me.

So it wouldn't be completely wrong to say that I am mad at Christianity. And unfortunately, far too many Christians have no way of distinguishing Christianity from God.

[geni]

Should be fairly easy to find out. Were you in algeria 3rd August 1997?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oued_El-Had_and_Mezouara_massacre

We never did manage to work out what exactly went on there.

[Wolfman]

Tricky,

I understand the sentiment...but let me balance that out a little.

My parents made a lot of mistakes (I don't know of any who didn't). But they loved me, and did their best. I had a lot of problems when growing up, some of which were unnecessary, and the results of bad decisions or false beliefs on the part of my parents/teachers.

Yet those same people did many great things for me, also; and along with the painful and angry memories, there are plenty of wonderful memories also. Today, I think I'm a pretty damn awesome person...and at least some of the credit for that must go to my parents, teachers, and others who were involved in bringing me up. Many of the values that I have today are a legacy passed on from them.

I remember befriending a French kid who joined our Grade 5 class, when everyone else mocked him, because I'd been taught as a Christian to "love my neighbor". I don't believe in God anymore...but that principle is one that still is central to my life.

So yeah, there's stuff that I'm angry at. But there's stuff that I'm grateful for, also. Yeah, I'd prefer to have been brought up with the same values, but minus the religious stuff. But I've still ended up better off than the vast majority of people in this world.

My brother's spent his life focusing on all the things he's angry about. Blaming my parents, blaming religion, blaming pretty much anyone and anyone who ever had even a minor impact on his life. I prefer to focus on the positive aspects.

And, when I put everything in the balance, while there are aspects of the way I was brought up and what I was taught to believe that I am angry at, those things had nothing to do with why I ended up becoming an atheist. In fact, I'd say that someone who rejects religion based simply on an emotional reaction (anger, or anything else) is going to be ruled by their emotions, and odds are they'll just end up adopting some other equally ridiculous beliefs as a result of some other emotional experience.

[Tricky]

I think you misunderstand my point a little bit, Wolfman. I am not angry at religion for installing moral values in me. I am not blaming religion for everything bad that has happened in my life. I even pointedly use the word "annoyed" rather than angry.

But I don't deny that I'm a little annoyed at being propagandized from an early age. I regret that I was not given the balance of multiple, competing ideaologies. And I'm one of the lucky ones. I wasn't harmed by religion, like so many I see here. (Slingblade comes to mind.) But I see that sort of thing, and I cannot help but be a bit angry that it happens in the place I call home.

But my point is, that to your friend, being angry at religion, for anything, is the same as being angry at God. They are not separate concepts. Oh, sure, they might say that, but try this. Ask your friend if his religion is the same thing as God. I think there is a high probability that he will say "no". Then ask if it is possible to rebel against his religion without rebelling against his God. I'm guessing he will struggle with this, or perhaps say "no" outright, even right after admitting that religion is not God.

And this is what I mean. When he says you are rebelling against God, it is the same, to him, as saying you are rejecting your religious teaching.

[Wolfman]

:-)

I wasn't intending that really to disagree with you...just to expand on it a little, and present a different perspective. As to why he thinks I've rebelled against God, I understand it completely...I once thought exactly the same way. God was an undeniable reality. Saying that you didn't believe in God was pretty much the same as saying that you didn't believe in gravity. Belief and non-belief were not intellectual issues, they were spiritual issues, with God and Satan playing tug-of-war with your soul. Rejecting Christianity meant that Satan had succeeded in deceiving you...and whether you were aware of it or not, you were now on Satan's side.

I lost the vast majority of my Christian friends specifically because of that belief. Despite the fact that I was not an anti-theist, and perfectly willing to remain friends with them, from their perspective I'd switched to the "enemy's side". Their only choices were A) to try to 'rescue' me from the enemy and bring me back to their side (ie. evangelize me), or B) to accept that I was now in the enemy's camp, and respond accordingly.

One doesn't fraternize with the enemy.

So I understand it all...it just frustrates the hell out of me :(

[Tumblehome]

Where did the angel touch him?


On his soul.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Hear Hear!

[FireGarden]

Now, I understand…I grew up brainwashed to think that those who abandoned Christianity were doing so out of rebellion and/or anger (and if confronted with an atheist, I would have responded in the same manner). And certainly, there are plenty of ex-Christians who are quite angry at their previous religion (often for very justifiable reasons). But this automatic assumption that it must be an emotional or personal reaction against something in Christianity really irks me.

Ha!
It's Karma -- and you can't escape it!
What goes around comes around.

What was the Golden Rule?
;)

[Wildy]

Because, if God exists, that means he's responsible for creating people who keep asking me stupid questions like that :D

It could be worse. If there is a God then there would be a hell right? And that would mean for you hell would be a whole room of theists asking you "why are you angry at God?"

[Thanz]

But my point is, that to your friend, being angry at religion, for anything, is the same as being angry at God. They are not separate concepts. Oh, sure, they might say that, but try this. Ask your friend if his religion is the same thing as God. I think there is a high probability that he will say "no". Then ask if it is possible to rebel against his religion without rebelling against his God. I'm guessing he will struggle with this, or perhaps say "no" outright, even right after admitting that religion is not God.

And this is what I mean. When he says you are rebelling against God, it is the same, to him, as saying you are rejecting your religious teaching.
Well, I going to have to disagree with you here. It is quite possible to rebel against religion - especially one particular religion - without rebelling against God. I was raised Catholic, but now I am Anglican. One could say that I rebelled against the Catholic Church. But I certainly have not rebelled against God.

Further, I'd say that rebelling against the teachings of particular religions/churches/sects (the Westboro Baptist Church springs easily to mind) can be an affirmation of God rather than a rebellion against Him.

Having said that, I understand the frustration on the part of Wolfman regarding the assumption that he is angry with God. I feel a similar frustration if an athiest automatically assumes that I am some sort of dunderhead for believing in God. Or assumes that because I believe in God, I am a young earth creationist and if I am not then I don't really believe in God. Unfortunately, some people simply make assumptions about others in order to slot them into some preconceived world view.

[babbits]

When they ask me that, I reply, "Oh, no. It would be silly to be angry with an imaginary being.";)

[Third Eye Open]

What's even worse is when they try to tell you that you are not happy.

[Minarvia]

I blame Touched By An Angel.

Ha! I was actually thinking of the Michael Landon series that I cannot recall the name of, at the moment. Didn't he play an angel with a human sidekick years before that "Touched by an Angel" series?

As to the OP, it's quite good. I've had people ask me why I'm "angry" with god. I have to say I'm not. How can I be angry at an imaginary friend? Some understand me when I say that, and others don't. Usually it's the "born again" christians who don't get it, in my experience.

[rwguinn]

Since, by their beliefs and personal conviction, God exists and cares for everyone, rejection of such a premise is rebellion or anger.
Liken it to (unto?:D) the US Constitution. It exists. You know it, I know it, we can find it, show it to others. You cannot conceive that it does not exist. Anybody who does not accept that is either rejecting it or angry with it.
In their minds, God is as real as the Constitution--perhaps moreso.

[Safe-Keeper]

As guinn says, I think a lot of the reason for their behaviour is that they can't understand that you've given up believing in the first place. To these people, there's two kinds of humans - those who openly believe and those who pretend not to.

I really, really think I understand why Christians consider God so good - if there was a being who created everything we see around us, then he would be like a father figure to us and we'd instinctively call Him not just good, but very good. (This realization came after I became a rather strong believer for about 10-15 minutes a month or so ago).

[pgwenthold]

I think it has to do with religion (Christianity in my experience) being considered a personal experience, a personal connection.

Yeah, I've heard that. I've always thought they really have a bizarre concept of what is a "personal relationship."

When I was in college, I roomed with a fundy whacko one summer. He would say things like, "I had a good talk with God today." Really? How did that go? What does God's voice sound like?

Oh wait, you didn't actually _hear_ God's voice? It was something you "heard" in your head? Again, we have different conceptions of what it means to "talk with" someone.

[Dunstan]

I'd really like to see the concept expanded.

Do agnostics* get asked why they are mildly annoyed at God?

Are Deists asked why they're not as close friends with God as they used to be?

*of the "on the fence" variety -- please take the obligatory semantic debate to another thread