Iowa Kosher slaughterhouse lawyer compares Iowa to "1939 Poland"

[Thunder]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090224/ap_on_re_us/kosher_slaughterhouse_2

Playing the "anti-Semitism" card is getting to be kinda pathetic.

The evidence is overwhelming, the charges are just, and the venue is just fine.

[marksman]

I note that Jim Clarity, who made the antisemitism charge, is not said to actually be Jewish. Sounds like an overzealous attorney.

[hgc]

I note that Jim Clarity, who made the antisemitism charge, is not said to actually be Jewish. Sounds like an overzealous attorney.


In this case, any attorney would be hard pressed to match the zealotry of his clients.

[pgwenthold]

1) If you think there is not anti-Semitism in northeast Iowa, you are deluded. Believe me, most of the folks in the area do not have good things to say about the Jews in Postville.
2) That being said, the owners of Agriprocessors were amazing in the lengths they went to bring illegal workers into the plant. They were the ones who were posting billboards on the Mexican side of the border, saying "Come to Postville, IA. We have jobs for you!" and then chartered buses that picked up the Mexicans after they got across the border, and hauled them to town. It was well-known that this was going on.

I say, let them move the venue. The case against them is overwhelming, and if you change the venue, then when they get steamrolled, they won't have anything to complain about.

For their sentance, they should be forced to rebuild Postville, which is left in complete ruins.

[marksman]

hgc,

That may be true, but the antisemitism charges should be imputed to them unless they repeat them.

[Thunder]

Its as if there is no anti-Semitism in Brooklyn or Los Angeles. There are people all over this country that hate Jews. Venue is irrelavent.

[a_unique_person]

I note that Jim Clarity, who made the antisemitism charge, is not said to actually be Jewish. Sounds like an overzealous attorney.

They could always let him know they don't want him to use that as a defense.

[Roadtoad]

I don't know much about this case. Any links?

ETA: I mean, besides the one in the OP.

[marksman]

They could always let him know they don't want him to use that as a defense.
True.

[Cleon]

I don't know much about this case. Any links?

ETA: I mean, besides the one in the OP.

If you go to forward.com and search for Agriprocessors, you'll find the whole sordid story. It ranges from child labor charges, to immigration violations, to inhumane working conditions.

[Roadtoad]

If you go to forward.com and search for Agriprocessors, you'll find the whole sordid story. It ranges from child labor charges, to immigration violations, to inhumane working conditions.

Solid reporting. I've been reading a great deal from the site. Thanks for the link.

In the meantime, I'm bookmarking it. It's nice to read an actual Newspaper.

[Cleon]

Solid reporting. I've been reading a great deal from the site. Thanks for the link.

In the meantime, I'm bookmarking it. It's nice to read an actual Newspaper.

Yeah, the Forward's a pretty good paper. I subscribe to the Yiddish version, which is a little different, but includes a lot of the same coverage.

[Horatius]

The consultant, Patricia Kuehn, of suburban Chicago, testified that references to Jewish stereotypes left grand jurors no other option but to form prejudices.


How exactly does that work? "They said they have big noses, well, I guess I have no choice but to believe them!"?

[Cleon]

How exactly does that work? "They said they have big noses, well, I guess I have no choice but to believe them!"?

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you can see that the defendants went to untold lengths to squeeze every last penny out of their workers..."

"OBJECTION! ANTI-SEMITISM!"

Sadly, I can see it going down something like that.

[Roadtoad]

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you can see that the defendants went to untold lengths to squeeze every last penny out of their workers..."

"OBJECTION! ANTI-SEMITISM!"

Sadly, I can see it going down something like that.

Unfortunately, so can I. And, yet, the last time I checked, neither Rick Waggoner at GM, nor Bernie Ebbers of WorldCom, were Jewish. They were merely greedy.

[pgwenthold]

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you can see that the defendants went to untold lengths to squeeze every last penny out of their workers..."

"OBJECTION! ANTI-SEMITISM!"

Sadly, I can see it going down something like that.

You want a more realistic situation? A juror during deliberations claims that the management "tried to jew the workers out of their overtime pay."

Why would I think that is realistic? Because I know people in the jury pool, and have heard this exact comment. That area does indeed use "jew" as a verb to describe harsh business activities. And they know exactly where it comes from.

[pgwenthold]

If you go to forward.com and search for Agriprocessors, you'll find the whole sordid story. It ranges from child labor charges, to immigration violations, to inhumane working conditions.

And it goes way beyond that. It gets into things like, the building and subsequent destruction of a community. Friends and neighbors of 10 years being ripped out of their homes, children sitting in school while their parents are hauled off to a temporary jail 75 miles away. 40% of a city's population being deported, leaving the place in ruins.

[Roadtoad]

You want a more realistic situation? A juror during deliberations claims that the management "tried to jew the workers out of their overtime pay."

Why would I think that is realistic? Because I know people in the jury pool, and have heard this exact comment. That area does indeed use "jew" as a verb to describe harsh business activities. And they know exactly where it comes from.

See my remark just above yours.

[pgwenthold]

See my remark just above yours.

What do those guys have to do with the folks from Agriprocessors who are on trial?

[Roadtoad]

My point, PG, is that they aren't Jewish. They're merely greedy.

Agriprocessors' greed is what got them, not their being Jewish. And, the last time I checked, greed is not limited to one particular group. Sorry, I should have been clearer in my meaning.

[pgwenthold]

My point, PG, is that they aren't Jewish. They're merely greedy.

Agriprocessors' greed is what got them, not their being Jewish. And, the last time I checked, greed is not limited to one particular group. Sorry, I should have been clearer in my meaning.

If that is your meaning, then it is a strawman.

This thread isn't about what the cause of the problem was, it is about the trial of those involved with Agriprocessors. The defendants have asked for a change in venue on the grounds that they can't get a fair trial in northeast Iowa because they are Jewish. There has been (mostly facetious) speculation about how this "anti-jewish" bias might pan out. I provided a real example of the type of anti-semitic attitude that is present in the actual jury pool.

Now, do you think they can get a fair trial with a jury whose members (might) use the word "jew" to mean "rip off"? I can tell you from experience, in that area of the country, it would not be unlikely at all for that to be the case.

I want these folks to get a fair trial, because they are going down, regardless. So in that case, you are just as well do it in a manner that does not raise any questions.

I think we all want them to be held accountable because they were using illegal business practices, not because they were greedy Jews. I'm not sure that is what would happen in that part of Iowa.

[Roadtoad]

If that is your meaning, then it is a strawman.

This thread isn't about what the cause of the problem was, it is about the trial of those involved with Agriprocessors. The defendants have asked for a change in venue on the grounds that they can't get a fair trial in northeast Iowa because they are Jewish. There has been (mostly facetious) speculation about how this "anti-jewish" bias might pan out. I provided a real example of the type of anti-semitic attitude that is present in the actual jury pool.

Now, do you think they can get a fair trial with a jury whose members (might) use the word "jew" to mean "rip off"? I can tell you from experience, in that area of the country, it would not be unlikely at all for that to be the case.

I want these folks to get a fair trial, because they are going down, regardless. So in that case, you are just as well do it in a manner that does not raise any questions.

I think we all want them to be held accountable because they were using illegal business practices, not because they were greedy Jews. I'm not sure that is what would happen in that part of Iowa.

You're experience is considerably different from my own, then. Using the word "jew" in place of "rip off" was simply something I didn't do, and hadn't even heard it until I was in High School, and even then, it was because another kid had used it that way and was shut down by a Jewish kid who took proper offense. (And the Jewish kid was actually a friend of mine. Dude, where are you?)

So, I would beg to differ that it's a strawman. However, I do see your point. (I suspect this is a question of degree, more than anything else, coupled with personal experience.) I've driven through Iowa, not spent much time there. Thanks for pointing this out to me.

We're in complete agreement that should Agriprocessors be found guilty in a court of law, that they should be held accountable for their actions. The evidence I'm seeing says they've broken every law they thought they could, just to make the meat cheap, and to build their market share. I have no problem with people cutting costs, but it looks as though the way they did it was nothing short of corrupt.

One thing that comes to mind, courtesy of Cleon's link to the Forward, is an editorial in that newspaper which says, in part, that a business owner's actions should be in line with his stated belief. That they were not in the case of Agriprocessors would, I might think, be a point the prosecution could use appropriately in court. (I'll try to find the link and post it later.) I could be wrong on this, so if there's someone with better legal training, I'd appreciate a "ruling."

Do I think a fair trial is possible in that part of Iowa? I don't know it for certain, but considering Dorothea Montalvo Puente got a fair trial for the F Street Murders, particularly after all the pretrial publicity, I think it's possible. (At one point, I had a business card someone had produced as a joke, which was for "Dottie's Landscaping Service: Special Discounts for Seniors.") True, the trial was moved to Monterey, but when you think about it, that city was not that far away, and the news of Puente's acts were strewn across the state. (Slightly OT: the boarding house is still there, on F Street in Sacramento. In case anyone's feeling particularly ghoulish.) The mindset was pretty much the same between the two towns.

Admittedly, this is probably not the best comparison, since Puente's crimes were of a far different nature, and considerably more severe in some regards than those of Agriprocessors. But I am of the belief that a fair trial in Iowa is possible.

Likely, however, is a far different matter. I can't answer that one. I'd like to think a good prosecutor would sift through the jury pool and anyone with racist tendencies would be booted immediately. Then again, in a day and age when OJ jurors can make millions from badly written books about their experience, the motivation to lie about one's beliefs would be pretty strong.

Hell, I've got no clue what the best course of action is in this. (Like anyone could miss that.) But I would think if things could be kept to facts and facts alone, these guys would go down, and go down hard.

One more thing: Agriprocessors got a lot of help from the leadership in the cities where they set up business. How come they aren't being examined as well?

[pgwenthold]

I've driven through Iowa, not spent much time there.


So why do you presume to know what the jury pool is like?

Again, you posit a strawman. I never claimed that the people you grew up with used the word "jew" as an insult. Unless you went to school in northeast Iowa, nothing I said applies to you. I claimed that members of the jury pool, for this case, do use "jew" to mean "rip off." And I'm not speculating, because 1) I know members of the jury pool in this case, and 2) I have heard them use that kind of description.

I grew up in that part of Iowa, and know the people there and what they are like. I know full well that there a very large number of people who don't like the Jews at all. I'm not guessing, I know them personally.

Just another reason why I'm glad I moved away, BTW.

[rwguinn]

Funny--Because I grew up with the same terms, except for us it meant "to get the best end of a deal", or to be a tough negotiator on price...
But then, I grew in the 3rd world of Texas and New Mexico...

[pgwenthold]

Funny--Because I grew up with the same terms, except for us it meant "to get the best end of a deal", or to be a tough negotiator on price...


It's kind of the same, except the context in which it is used is never in a good way. In fact, it is used interchangably with "jipped" (which I see as mostly a euphamism). When someone would say, "We got jipped on that deal" it goes beyond the "we came out on the worst end of it"

[Cleon]

It's kind of the same, except the context in which it is used is never in a good way. In fact, it is used interchangably with "jipped" (which I see as mostly a euphamism). When someone would say, "We got jipped on that deal" it goes beyond the "we came out on the worst end of it"

Well, "jipped" is actually spelled "Gypped." "Gyp" as in "gypsy."

Same stereotype/slur, different group.

[Roadtoad]

So why do you presume to know what the jury pool is like?

Again, you posit a strawman. I never claimed that the people you grew up with used the word "jew" as an insult. Unless you went to school in northeast Iowa, nothing I said applies to you. I claimed that members of the jury pool, for this case, do use "jew" to mean "rip off." And I'm not speculating, because 1) I know members of the jury pool in this case, and 2) I have heard them use that kind of description.

I grew up in that part of Iowa, and know the people there and what they are like. I know full well that there a very large number of people who don't like the Jews at all. I'm not guessing, I know them personally.

Just another reason why I'm glad I moved away, BTW.

Wow. Just... Wow.

I don't remember saying I knew what the jury pool was like. RE-READ the post. I think I said I was working from my own experience, which is considerably different than your own.

I would expect that the defense would be looking for these folks in the jury pool, and would be looking to dismiss them. That would be common sense.

Hey, glad you no longer live there. I tend to avoid racists and bigots of any stripe myself. In the end, I find my stress level is considerably less.

Don't know what brought out your inner pit bull, but, hey, no big deal. Easy fix.

[Thunder]

Well, "jipped" is actually spelled "Gypped." "Gyp" as in "gypsy."

Same stereotype/slur, different group.

no..actually the stereotype is that Gypsies sell crap. Jews are thought to over-charge for generally quality stuff.

[Roadtoad]

no..actually the stereotype is that Gypsies sell crap. Jews are thought to over-charge for generally quality stuff.

Neither is good. I'm offended by both slurs.

Odd, really. In my experience, both the Romany and the Jews treated me with the respect I deserved. If I acted like a jackass, I was treated like a jackass. If I acted respectfully, I was treated with respect. Frankly, I found myself in better company with both than I did with my "fellow" whites. The same went for my experience with Americans of African, Asian or Hispanic ancestry.

Presently, I'm a minority in my neighborhood. Most of the folks here come from a variety of ethnicities. Pretty cool, if you ask me. My kids grew up without a lot of the bigotry that characterized people like my grandparents.

Just a thought. Probably OT, but in the context of the discussion, probably of interest to some. Or not.

[Cleon]

no..actually the stereotype is that Gypsies sell crap. Jews are thought to over-charge for generally quality stuff.

No.

The stereotype is that gypsies swindle and steal. It's a variation of the same theme.

[pgwenthold]

Wow. Just... Wow.

I don't remember saying I knew what the jury pool was like. RE-READ the post. I think I said I was working from my own experience, which is considerably different than your own.


And it has nothing to do with this thread, which is about whether the owners of Agriprocessors can get a fair trial in Cedar Rapids, IA.

Your experiences growing up in Hobbs, New Mexico (or wherever) are completely irrelevent.

[bigjelmapro]

Regardless if this trial ends up being fair or not, if there are grounds for a retrial, then there will be one.

Personally, as a person of Jewish descent, I'm getting quite tired of the copious use of the anti-semitism angle. Or this might be merely that there is too much media attention attributed to this angle compared to other minorities.

Anyways, we'll see how this pans out.

[pgwenthold]

Regardless if this trial ends up being fair or not, if there are grounds for a retrial, then there will be one.

Personally, as a person of Jewish descent, I'm getting quite tired of the copious use of the anti-semitism angle.

I don't know. I'm not convinced much of it is not legit. See my comments in this thread. I grew up in northeast Iowa. I've seen/heard/experienced the anti-Jewish sentiment. Heck, I was even part of it until I started to realize what was actually being said. That hasn't changed all that much among a lot of the population from when I was young.

Yes, the anti-semitism angle is probably overused, but as I said in my original post, if you don't think there is anti-semitism in northeast Iowa, you are deluded.

Granted, there aren't a lot of Jews around, so the effects of it are not all that significant, but the sentiment is there.

[bigjelmapro]

Never stated anything along the lines of there being no anti-semitism in Iowa. I'd be surprised if it wasn't the case. Again, if there are grounds for a mistrial, then there would be one.