Algeria, France and Vietnam

[moon1969]

So why did the french colonialism cause the Vietnam War since Vietnam was a colony of France? Second is it true that France left Vietnam because they needed more troops to keep their other colony Algeria since Algeria was also a colony of France? :mad:

[Darth Rotor]

So why did the french colonialism cause the Vietnam War since Vietnam was a colony of France?
You just answered your own question, besides forgetting that the Japanese did a lovely job of conquering Viet Nam and occupying it, having added it to their empire at the expense of the French Empire.
Second is it true that France left Vietnam because they needed more troops to keep their other colony Algeria since Algeria was also a colony of France? :mad:
No.

Any other questions, moon?

DR

[moon1969]

You just answered your own question, besides forgetting that the Japanese did a lovely job of conquering Viet Nam and occupying it, having added it to their empire at the expense of the French Empire.

No.

Any other questions, moon?

DR

You are wrong. There was a war in Algeria called Algerian War during 1 November 1954 – 19 March 1962 so France took the troops out of Vietnam and sent them to Algeria but still lost. I can really understand why Robert Mugabe hates hypocrites like Gordon Brown so much.

[moon1969]

You just answered your own question, besides forgetting that the Japanese did a lovely job of conquering Viet Nam and occupying it, having added it to their empire at the expense of the French Empire.

No.

Any other questions, moon?

DR

And the original reason why America went to Vietnam was because France could not control French Indochina anymore. No french colonialism, no Vietnam war.

[moon1969]

You just answered your own question, besides forgetting that the Japanese did a lovely job of conquering Viet Nam and occupying it, having added it to their empire at the expense of the French Empire.

No.

Any other questions, moon?

DR


Lets not forget the Franco–Thai War of October 1940–May 9, 1941. So pretty funny when french cry what the germans did to them during WW2. I guess Hitler teached the french men how colonialism feels like. :mad:

[moon1969]

You just answered your own question, besides forgetting that the Japanese did a lovely job of conquering Viet Nam and occupying it, having added it to their empire at the expense of the French Empire.

No.

Any other questions, moon?

DR



It was not Vietnam. Japan invaded part of French Indochina and that started the Franco–Thai War. So how nice for french colonialists to defend their colonial intrests during WW2. :D Japan had every right invade French Indochina since France originally invaded those areas. Are you defending french colonialism? :rolleyes:

[plumjam]

Moon, are you playing Risk? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_(game)
From what I remember of my history PhD the French withdrew their troops from Vietnam, and then Algeria, in preparation for an invasion of Finland. The plan was called off at the last minute due to the French military top brass being decidedly unimpressed, while at a Finnish Embassy function, at the standard of the indigenous cheese.

[quixotecoyote]

You can see a small button on the lower right of your posts which is labeled "edit." It's just left of the "link" button. I humbly suggest you familiarize yourself with it at the first opportunity.

[moon1969]

Moon, are you playing Risk? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_(game)
From what I remember of my history PhD the French withdrew their troops from Vietnam, and then Algeria, in preparation for an invasion of Finland. The plan was called off at the last minute due to the French military top brass being decidedly unimpressed, while at a Finnish Embassy function, at the standard of the indigenous cheese.


We would have kicked the french colonialists just like we kicked the germans in the Lapland War and russians in the Battle of Tali-Ihantala. :D

[Foolmewunz]

You are wrong. There was a war in Algeria called Algerian War during 1 November 1954 – 19 March 1962 so France took the troops out of Vietnam and sent them to Algeria but still lost. I can really understand why Robert Mugabe hates hypocrites like Gordon Brown so much.

Moon, help me out, here.
Now, I can understand French-Viet Nam-French-Algiers.... be assured that as usual much of your information is wrong or based on history as written on the back of a box of Sugar Frosted Flakes.... but at least there is a legitimate historical connnection.

But..... now here's where I need the help.... how do we then get from North Africa and L'Indochine to Southern Africa, Mugabe, and Gordon Brown? And would you be talking about the same Robert Mugabe who's in the news a lot of late? Robert Mugabe calling anyone a hypocrite would be a joke of the highest order.

[Wildy]

So why did the french colonialism cause the Vietnam War since Vietnam was a colony of France? Second is it true that France left Vietnam because they needed more troops to keep their other colony Algeria since Algeria was also a colony of France? :mad:

Regarding your first question I guess it has to do with the French being complete jerks towards the Vietnamese. But during the colonial period the French used the Deuxieme Bureau to great effect in the area, having a vast body of informants that allowed them to quell clandestine groups extremely quickly.

In WWII they were at loggerheads against the Kempeitai, the Japanese military/secret police as the Japanese were supporting groups who were opposed to the colonial administration.

It culminated in the French attempting a coup against the Japanese in the country, but was suppressed and helped to break the Bureau and their web partly through the creation of the Empire of Vietnam and partly because the French who weren't killed or in the jungle were interred by the Japanese.

When the Empire of Vietnam (like the other Japanese puppet states) collapsed at the end of WWII a power vacuum ensued, allowing groups like the Vietminh to gain more power. The French, when they returned to the colony, were fighting to regain control of the colony. Bad decisions, by the French in the north, and the British, helping the French in Cochin China and then the death of one of the more promising generals in the area, coupled with Mao Zedong gaining control of southern China allowing weapons to flow unhindered through the border controlled by the Vietminh plus a use of more unconventional tactics helped the Vietminh to defeat the French at Dien Bien Phu in 1954 and force the hand of the French with the 1954 Geneva Accords giving them independence.

I don't know about fighting in Algeria, but their war of independence started on November 1, Dien Bien Phu was from March - May '54, while the last official battle of the First Indochina War was the Battle of Mang Yang Pass in late June - early July of the same year.

By the looks of it, by the time the fighting really broke out in Algeria the French still had the remnants of forces from former French Indochina that they could re-deploy to Algeria. I don't know if that actually happened or not, I think someone who knows more about the fighting in Algeria would be able to fill us in on that.

[moon1969]

Moon, help me out, here.
Now, I can understand French-Viet Nam-French-Algiers.... be assured that as usual much of your information is wrong or based on history as written on the back of a box of Sugar Frosted Flakes.... but at least there is a legitimate historical connnection.

But..... now here's where I need the help.... how do we then get from North Africa and L'Indochine to Southern Africa, Mugabe, and Gordon Brown? And would you be talking about the same Robert Mugabe who's in the news a lot of late? Robert Mugabe calling anyone a hypocrite would be a joke of the highest order.


Noup it is not wrong. French were colonialists. Very simple. France took the troops out of Vietnam colony because it needed them to keep another colony called Algeria. So are you denying that Vietnam was a part of French Indochina? ;):D:rolleyes::cool:

[fuelair]

Does any of this matter for crap now?

[lupus_in_fabula]

I strongly object to this thread because there's no Stalin-Finland-Jews connection implied in it.


This thread is mal f u n cti o n in g!

[sackett]

Fellahs, let plummy handle this one. He's tuned in on moon in ways we can never equal.

How French, to scorn good Finnish cheese.

[Vic Vega]

I strongly object to this thread because there's no Stalin-Finland-Jews connection implied in it.

I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop. There has to be something about Jews coming.

[Biscuit]

Vietnamese jews are the best jews in the world.

[moon1969]

Does any of this matter for crap now?


It probaly matters to the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki who were called war criminal colonialists by the british and french. ;) Hirohito was a saint compared to Winston Churchill and other colonialists.

[moon1969]

Does any of this matter for crap now?



It also probaly matters to the relatives of those americans who died in the Vietnam war because of french colonialism. It probaly matters to those cambodians who died because Pol Pot got to power after Vietnam War. It probaly matters to the japanese people who were called colonialist war criminals and Empire of Japan was called evil. No french colonialism, no Vietnam War and Pol Pot. So before people blame Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon maybe they should first blame french colonialism. Vietnam was a colony of France and a part of French Indochina. France caused the Vietnam War. :mad: France is to blame for the Vietnam War and not America.

[fuelair]

It also probaly matters to the relatives of those americans who died in the Vietnam war because of french colonialism. It probaly matters to those cambodians who died because Pol Pot got to power after Vietnam War. It probaly matters to the japanese people who were called colonialist war criminals and Empire of Japan was called evil. No french colonialism, no Vietnam War and Pol Pot. So before people blame Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon maybe they should first blame french colonialism. Vietnam was a colony of France and a part of French Indochina. France caused the Vietnam War. :mad: France is to blame for the Vietnam War and not America.
No, HoChi Minh and his troops caused the war (the presence of the French may have been a factor, but nothing required Uncle Ho to attack them and try to take over (eventually with success)). BTW, I was there-'69-70. And, it is still long over. BTB, the Americans who died there were not there because of the French, they were there because of an idiot belief on the part of some US politicians called the Domino Effect. Without that, it is extremely unlikely we would have been there.

[moon1969]

Very interesting how after WW2 the so called anti-nazi french had the First Indochina War on December 19, 1946 – August 1, 1954. So I guess Klaus Barbie was a war criminal but french colonialism was good? :confused:

[fuelair]

Very interesting how after WW2 the so called anti-nazi french had the First Indochina War on December 19, 1946 – August 1, 1954. So I guess Klaus Barbie was a war criminal but french colonialism was good? :confused:

Pretty well nailed it - good show!!

[Holler Hoojer]

Moon,
I'm a newbie, so I don't know your spin on history, but if you're interested in the first Viet-Nam War, you could do worse than read Bernard Fall's Street Without Joy. And, the French left because they got their butts kicked, real hard. Google Highway One and Dien Bien Phu.

[moon1969]

Moon,
I'm a newbie, so I don't know your spin on history, but if you're interested in the first Viet-Nam War, you could do worse than read Bernard Fall's Street Without Joy. And, the French left because they got their butts kicked, real hard. Google Highway One and Dien Bien Phu.


Wrong. France needed more troops in Algeria and that is why they left Vietnam. So 50 000 americans died in Vietnam because of french colonialism.
Look France was losing control of Algeria so they needed all troops from Vietnam to the Algerian War on 1 November 1954 – 19 March 1962. How about the fact that France tortured people during the Algerian War. :mad:

[SimonD]

Did you know that about 2/3 of the French Foreign Legion that fought in Vietnam where ex-German soldiers from WW2?

[moon1969]

Did you know that about 2/3 of the French Foreign Legion that fought in Vietnam where ex-German soldiers from WW2?


So I guess that means we can blame the germans and ignore the crimes french soldiers did? :confused:

[SimonD]

So I guess that means we can blame the germans and ignore the crimes french soldiers did? :confused:

Bit of a leap there moon...

I just thought it was intresting\ironic when I first came across it...

[Toke]

What is wrong with reindeer cheese?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

So why did the french colonialism cause the Vietnam War since Vietnam was a colony of France? Second is it true that France left Vietnam because they needed more troops to keep their other colony Algeria since Algeria was also a colony of France? :mad:

Were any Jews involved? How about Russians?

[Toke]

How about the fact that France tortured people during the Algerian War.
Yes, I heard it became known as "the french metod"* for dealing with insurgent, and have been copied by others around the world.
Strange, it did not work, or maybe not well enough.

*Not the gardening technique.

[Holler Hoojer]

Wrong. France needed more troops in Algeria and that is why they left Vietnam. So 50 000 americans died in Vietnam because of french colonialism.
Look France was losing control of Algeria so they needed all troops from Vietnam to the Algerian War on 1 November 1954 – 19 March 1962. How about the fact that France tortured people during the Algerian War. :mad:

Do you always just repeat yourself as an argument? I answered you because you have the facts (not the interpretation, but the facts) wrong. I understand France had begun shifting troops to Algeria and that was in fact a major reason for Viet-Nam not getting enough troops or supplies. But, what the lawyers call the proximate cause of their leaving was the defeat at Dien Bien Phu. If you're not willing to read Fall, Barbara Tuchman did a nice piece on it in The March of Folly.

And, blaming the French for our involvement in Viet-Nam is a bit like blaming Isaac and Ishmael for the Six Day War. You can do it, but it's a real stretch. The US got sucked into Viet-Nam in a big way starting in '61 (notice the time span between 1954 and 1961?) when JFK became enamored of green beanies and the firepower doctrines such as "recon by fire". To be fair to the President, he was being dragged hard to the right by Lyman Lemnitzer and other hawks, but he did fall for that peculiar American delusion that "gimmicks" can beat boots on the ground. Then LBJ, with stones as big as all Texas, decided he wasn't gonna lose to a bunch of commies and went whole-hog.

Do you have a particular agenda you're advancing? If so, say it and give me a chance to respond directly to that. Who knows, I might even agree.

[Darth Rotor]

You are wrong. There was a war in Algeria called Algerian War during 1 November 1954 – 19 March 1962 so France took the troops out of Vietnam and sent them to Algeria but still lost. I can really understand why Robert Mugabe hates hypocrites like Gordon Brown so much.
No, I am right, and you are guilty of a non sequitur.

You are also wrong in that the defeat in Viet Nam/Indochina was not a simple cause and effect relationship to the Algerian problem that was a bit older than 1954. Beau Geste for fifty, Alex. :p

Note also that, as an Empire, or a has been Empire, the French hoped to succeed in both of thier old colonial possessions, but ran into the small problem of enemies with a hell of a lot of fight in them, and a bit more brass and wit than the French could handle.

Maybe you ought to do the following: put a sock in it until you have a clue what you are talking about.

DR

[moon1969]

No, I am right, and you are guilty of a non sequitur.

You are also wrong in that the defeat in Viet Nam/Indochina was not a simple cause and effect relationship to the Algerian problem that was a bit older than 1954. Beau Geste for fifty, Alex. :p

Note also that, as an Empire, or a has been Empire, the French hoped to succeed in both of thier old colonial possessions, but ran into the small problem of enemies with a hell of a lot of fight in them, and a bit more brass and wit than the French could handle.

Maybe you ought to do the following: put a sock in it until you have a clue what you are talking about.

DR


Yes but the Algeria was a big factor why France left. So are you defending french colonialism but same time hating the Empire of Japan for being colonialist? :D You are wrong. The Algeria problem was a big factor to the french defeat in Vietnam. But what does it matter? Vietnam was a colony of France just like Algeria was a colony of France and you are trying to find reasons to defend french colonialism. :confused:

[fuelair]

bit of a leap there moon...

I just thought it was intresting\ironic when i first came across it...

breaking news:::::::::::moon jumps over tall building comes down hard on wrong side.....details to follow...............

[fuelair]

Double post

[Foolmewunz]

Moon,
Maybe I need another cappuccino, but did you just try to make Churchill a baddy compared to Hirohito? Nope. I just checked. You actually said that. And you also said that the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were called colonialists????????? Who ever referred to them as colonialists, please? I'm sure you have actual evidence of such degenerate lunacy.

[Elizabeth I]

Moon,
Maybe I need another cappuccino, but did you just try to make Churchill a baddy compared to Hirohito? Nope. I just checked. You actually said that. And you also said that the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were called colonialists????????? Who ever referred to them as colonialists, please? I'm sure you have actual evidence of such degenerate lunacy.

Well, he has provided actual evidence of someone's degenerate lunacy.

And who the hell taught him to use the smilie buttons?

[fuelair]

Well, he has provided actual evidence of someone's degenerate lunacy.

And who the hell taught him to use the smilie buttons?
I fear I am forced to believe his knowledge of history has been pulled in it's
entiriity from his colon.

[Wildy]

Yes but the Algeria was a big factor why France left. So are you defending french colonialism but same time hating the Empire of Japan for being colonialist? :D You are wrong. The Algeria problem was a big factor to the french defeat in Vietnam. But what does it matter? Vietnam was a colony of France just like Algeria was a colony of France and you are trying to find reasons to defend french colonialism. :confused:

If I remember correctly I had a post in this thread where I pointed out that the First Indochina War ended before the Algerian War started.

[fuelair]

If I remember correctly I had a post in this thread where I pointed out that the First Indochina War ended before the Algerian War started.
See post 38 which explains that.

[Wildy]

It really does seem like that though.

[Wildy]

Running away moon1969?