There is nothing bad about greed and nothing good about faith.

[EGarrett]

I proclaim the above. Furthermore, I propose that Greed and Faith trade spots on the popular lists of Sins and Virtues.

[Puppycow]

7upG01-XWbY

[EGarrett]

Yes. People make the mistake of blaming "greed" for bad things that are actually caused by dishonesty, theft or a lot of other "sins." An honest, knowledgeable man who wants a lot for himself, especially in modern first-world society, will do great things for others.

Likewise, faith provides no value whatsoever compared to rational understanding.

[joobz]

You've been reading Ayn Rand.

[Beerina]

Greed that leads to honest hard work to earn more money is fine. But when people think of greed, they often think of smarmy tricksterism, if not greed leading to outright theft and violent behavior.

There seem to be vested interests that seek to maintain that the 2nd is the only way to look at it.

[INRM]

Are you serious?

Greed can be hugely dangerous. Look at all the heart-ache Bernie Madoff caused. That was complete pure and unbridled greed.

INRM

[Marquis de Carabas]

There is very little in this world that is either entirely good or entirely bad.

[Telluride]

EGarrett, Gordon Gekko and Ayn Rand all agree that greed is good. Works for me.

[quarky]

Garf.

[joobz]

There is very little in this world that is either entirely good or entirely bad.
I submit for your evaluation....joobz.
I'm entirely bad at being good.

[EGarrett]

You've been reading Ayn Rand.Nope. Just thinking about it...

Are you serious?

Greed can be hugely dangerous. Look at all the heart-ache Bernie Madoff caused. That was complete pure and unbridled greed.

INRMIs greed the problem or is dishonesty, ignorance and/or short-sightedness the problem?

I said there's nothing bad about GREED. There's plenty bad about the other three things.

There is very little in this world that is either entirely good or entirely bad.Then please name something bad about greed or something good about faith. I haven't found anything.

[Texas]

Nope. Just thinking about it...

Is greed the problem or is dishonesty, ignorance and/or short-sightedness the problem?

I said there's nothing bad about GREED. There's plenty bad about the other three things.

Then please name something bad about greed or something good about faith. I haven't found anything.I suppose you are using the religious form of faith but we exhibit non-religious faith everyday of our lives. I have faith that when I leave my house that my wife will not invite the mail man in for a special delivery or empty the bank account and go the Vegas. Without faith you would never be able to trust anyone you know.

[BPSCG]

The problem here is what people commonly think of as greed.

If you say that greed is simply one's desire to have more than one has, it's hard to argue that it is a bad thing. Is it bad for someone who lives in a small apartment to want a bigger one, or someone who lives in a large apartment to want his own house? Is it bad for someone who can only afford macaroni-and-cheese for dinner to want to be able to afford steak?

The thing is, the common understanding of greed is not simply wanting more, but wanting more by taking what rightfully belongs to someone else - and that's where the social disapproval of greed begins, because people confuse native greed with the effect of unbridled greed. The boy who gobbles down his own ice cream at dessert time, then grabs his little sister's bowl and eats hers, is greedy; he wants more ice cream than he's been given, but commits an act of theft by taking hers. There's nothing wrong with his wanting more ice cream; there's plenty wrong with taking his sister's.

Good luck getting most people to understand that there's nothing wrong with greed in principle, that there's only a problem when it is unrestrained.

[plumjam]

Greed is a motivating force behind much criminal as well as antisocial activity.
Even if not acted upon, it still serves to rob people of their own peace of mind. So, either way, it is a thief.

[Lonewulf]

The problem here is what people commonly think of as greed.

If you say that greed is simply one's desire to have more than one has, it's hard to argue that it is a bad thing. Is it bad for someone who lives in a small apartment to want a bigger one, or someone who lives in a large apartment to want his own house? Is it bad for someone who can only afford macaroni-and-cheese for dinner to want to be able to afford steak?

The thing is, the common understanding of greed is not simply wanting more, but wanting more by taking what rightfully belongs to someone else - and that's where the social disapproval of greed begins, because people confuse native greed with the effect of unbridled greed. The boy who gobbles down his own ice cream at dessert time, then grabs his little sister's bowl and eats hers, is greedy; he wants more ice cream than he's been given, but commits an act of theft by taking hers. There's nothing wrong with his wanting more ice cream; there's plenty wrong with taking his sister's.

Good luck getting most people to understand that there's nothing wrong with greed in principle, that there's only a problem when it is unrestrained.

Well, as the OP brought up sins and vices, I'd argue that that's true of all the Seven Capital Vices.

Well, perhaps not Lust, as in that case, outside of STDs, maybe too much of a good thing is still good. :D

But yeah, Wrath -- being angry isn't a problem, it's letting yourself get swallowed up by rage and committing a grievous action.

Envy -- A little bit of envy isn't bad, it's getting to the point where you let it drive apart friendships, and take from/punish the person you're envious of.

Gluttony -- Eating to survive isn't a problem (which is what EGarrett seems to be suggesting with his "greed"). Stuffing your face until you bloat up and die of a heart attack at the age of 40, is.

Sloth -- taking a relaxing vacation once in a while isn't a problem. But neglecting doing anything out of laziness, is.

Pride -- I'm pretty sure that being proud of hitting the bulls-eye in archery isn't a problem. But having so much pride that I see myself above all others, well, that's just because I am above all others, so this doesn't count. :D

Same with Greed.

[EGarrett]

I suppose you are using the religious form of faith but we exhibit non-religious faith everyday of our lives. I have faith that when I leave my house that my wife will not invite the mail man in for a special delivery or empty the bank account and go the Vegas. Without faith you would never be able to trust anyone you know.But that's not faith. That's belief based on past experience.

If you have a good reason to think something (like that your wife won't cheat on you, because she's been trustworthy in the past), then it's not faith.

The problem here is what people commonly think of as greed.

If you say that greed is simply one's desire to have more than one has, it's hard to argue that it is a bad thing. Is it bad for someone who lives in a small apartment to want a bigger one, or someone who lives in a large apartment to want his own house? Is it bad for someone who can only afford macaroni-and-cheese for dinner to want to be able to afford steak?

The thing is, the common understanding of greed is not simply wanting more, but wanting more by taking what rightfully belongs to someone else - and that's where the social disapproval of greed begins, because people confuse native greed with the effect of unbridled greed. The boy who gobbles down his own ice cream at dessert time, then grabs his little sister's bowl and eats hers, is greedy; he wants more ice cream than he's been given, but commits an act of theft by taking hers. There's nothing wrong with his wanting more ice cream; there's plenty wrong with taking his sister's.

Good luck getting most people to understand that there's nothing wrong with greed in principle, that there's only a problem when it is unrestrained.But we already have a term for that. Theft. And we know theft is bad. Greed is fine until theft becomes involved, then it becomes bad. So the real problem, in this case, is not greed at all, but theft.

I think we agree though.

Greed is a motivating force behind much criminal as well as antisocial activity.
Even if not acted upon, it still serves to rob people of their own peace of mind. So, either way, it is a thief.I'm not sure what you mean by "either way, it is a thief."

In the last few centuries, with the emergence of free market capitalism, we've found a real way for greedy people to benefit by benefitting others. This was always the case of course, because a knowledgeable person would know that allowing order to exist without theft is the best way for society to advance and thus for their lives to be better...but free market capitalism REALLY drove the point home.

Well, as the OP brought up sins and vices, I'd argue that that's true of all the Seven Capital Vices.

Well, perhaps not Lust, as in that case, outside of STDs, maybe too much of a good thing is still good. :D

But yeah, Wrath -- being angry isn't a problem, it's letting yourself get swallowed up by rage and committing a grievous action.

Envy -- A little bit of envy isn't bad, it's getting to the point where you let it drive apart friendships, and take from/punish the person you're envious of.

Gluttony -- Eating to survive isn't a problem (which is what EGarrett seems to be suggesting with his "greed"). Stuffing your face until you bloat up and die of a heart attack at the age of 40, is.

Sloth -- taking a relaxing vacation once in a while isn't a problem. But neglecting doing anything out of laziness, is.

Pride -- I'm pretty sure that being proud of hitting the bulls-eye in archery isn't a problem. But having so much pride that I see myself above all others, well, that's just because I am above all others, so this doesn't count. :D

Same with Greed.Hmmm...good point and it may be true. Before I'd agree completely though, I'd have to be sure that we had a separate concept that we could point to as bad.

For example, I'm not sure irresponsibility is separate from sloth. Or that gluttony is the same as simple hunger. It might be though...I just haven't had much time to consider each term.

[Egg]

The downside of greed is dependant on limits to resources. In the case of infinite resources, greed is not necessarily bad (at least on a social level).

The basic example being a cake. If there are 4 people all wanting cake and someone takes more than their share, then someone else has to go with less.

So, it's not the theft side of it (although greed is likely to make theft more tempting) but the taking of more than you need to the detriment of others.

On a world scale, greed is often the motivation behind military conflicts.

However, in the case of business and the economy, greed is a driving force behind capitalism and can, under the right circumstances, be beneficial.


Faith, on the other hand, is rarely held up as a virtue under the definition you ascribe to it. You seem to be thinking of "taking something on faith" or blind faith.

[yy2bggggs]

greed
excessive or rapacious desire, esp. for wealth or possessions.
Merriam Webster:
a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed
American Heritage:
An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth: “Many . . . attach to competition the stigma of selfish greed” (Henry Fawcett)."
Etymology of greedy (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=greedy) from which the term greed derives (from my favorite etymology source... etymonline</spam>).

Excert:
A Ger. word for it is habsüchtig, from haben "to have" + sucht "sickness, disease," with sense tending toward "passion for."

Greed is almost bad by definition. If your desire for gain isn't excessive, it simply doesn't count as greed.

This:
People make the mistake of blaming "greed" for bad things that are actually caused by dishonesty,
...is more accurately described as a tendency to judge desires that include those bad things as being excessive.

[slingblade]

faith.

But we already have a term for that. Theft. And we know theft is bad. Greed is fine until theft becomes involved, then it becomes bad. So the real problem, in this case, is not greed at all, but theft.

Greed often motivates theft. You ask the child why he took the ice cream, he says, "because I wanted more," or "because I wanted hers, too."

I'm not sure what you mean by "either way, it is a thief."

Robbing you of your peace of mind.

In the last few centuries, with the emergence of free market capitalism, we've found a real way for greedy people to benefit by benefitting others.

Not really, no.

My ex-husband is a home-builder. Not the guy who swings the hammer, but the guy who sits behind the desk. The big boss. Yeah, he builds homes, and that benefits people. Except he often uses cheap materials, shoddy workmanship, shortcuts, and so on. The homes aren't all they are promised to be. We've been in this one 4 months, and the cheap carpeting throughout the place needs to be replaced. You can see the studs behind the thin drywall, see the beams in the ceilings. The paint was watered down, and the whole place needs going over again with real paint. The window-casings began to separate from the walls a week after we moved in.

The place is cheap. And it means he makes more money than he spent, but the home-buyers will end up paying more than they agreed, more than most new home-buyers usually have to, or should.

This is so, because the home-builder is greedy, and wants more than he's entitled to have.

[Egg]

Not really, no.

My ex-husband is a home-builder. Not the guy who swings the hammer, but the guy who sits behind the desk. The big boss. Yeah, he builds homes, and that benefits people. Except he often uses cheap materials, shoddy workmanship, shortcuts, and so on. The homes aren't all they are promised to be. We've been in this one 4 months, and the cheap carpeting throughout the place needs to be replaced. You can see the studs behind the thin drywall, see the beams in the ceilings. The paint was watered down, and the whole place needs going over again with real paint. The window-casings began to separate from the walls a week after we moved in.

The place is cheap. And it means he makes more money than he spent, but the home-buyers will end up paying more than they agreed, more than most new home-buyers usually have to, or should.

This is so, because the home-builder is greedy, and wants more than he's entitled to have.
Yes, that is motivated by greed, but the argument would be that it's just short-sighted planning, because well made houses would get him more business in the long run.

[Moochie]

<snip>

My ex-husband is a home-builder. Not the guy who swings the hammer, but the guy who sits behind the desk. The big boss. Yeah, he builds homes, and that benefits people. Except he often uses cheap materials, shoddy workmanship, shortcuts, and so on. The homes aren't all they are promised to be. We've been in this one 4 months, and the cheap carpeting throughout the place needs to be replaced. You can see the studs behind the thin drywall, see the beams in the ceilings. The paint was watered down, and the whole place needs going over again with real paint. The window-casings began to separate from the walls a week after we moved in.

The place is cheap. And it means he makes more money than he spent, but the home-buyers will end up paying more than they agreed, more than most new home-buyers usually have to, or should.

This is so, because the home-builder is greedy, and wants more than he's entitled to have.


"Entitled" according to whom?


M.

[billydkid]

Are you serious?

Greed can be hugely dangerous. Look at all the heart-ache Bernie Madoff caused. That was complete pure and unbridled greed.

INRM
"Can lead to..." the old "Can lead to..." thing. Greed is an attitude. We need to worry less about people's attitudes and more about what they do. It doesn't matter how "greedy" a person is. What matters is whether or not they break the law - steal, commit fraud and so on. This is where it all gets confused - when we hear our leaders talking about the evils of greed. I don't happen to be greedy at all, but it would matter little if I were, since the only way I could abuse anyone through my greed would be to deceive and defraud them which are not legal. Bernie's crime was not that he was greedy. It was that he was a thief who broke the law.

[plumjam]

I'm not sure what you mean by "either way, it is a thief."
I mean that when acted upon you're thieving from others, and when not acted upon you're still thieving from yourself by denying yourself peace of mind, due to the unquenchable and therefore incessant nature of thought forms which arise from greed.

In the last few centuries, with the emergence of free market capitalism, we've found a real way for greedy people to benefit by benefitting others.
That's quite easy to say if you happen to live quite comfortably in one of the World's rich nations; but try telling that to the majority of the human race who live in poverty and exploitation, serving the greedy and the rich.

I also find it very ironic that you would come up with a thread like this when even the rich, greedy nations are reeling due to the actions of a tiny number of their most impressively greedy capitalism-fanboy citizens.

This was always the case of course, because a knowledgeable person would know that allowing order to exist without theft is the best way for society to advance and thus for their lives to be better...but free market capitalism REALLY drove the point home.
Not sure what you're getting at there.. seems to me that free market capitalism was always trying to minimise order, at least in certain sections of society.. e.g. deregulation

[Third Eye Open]

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Anconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil? ...

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1826

[plumjam]

Third Eye, I think Francisco was onto a red herring. The misattributed saying comes from "The love of money is the root of all evil" http://scripturetext.com/1_timothy/6-10.htm

[Third Eye Open]

Third Eye, I think Francisco was onto a red herring. The misattributed saying comes from "The love of money is the root of all evil" http://scripturetext.com/1_timothy/6-10.htm

"Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money--and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it.

"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it... :)

[plumjam]

:)

:D
Jeez. Miss Rand certainly talked a lot of self-serving bollocks.

[immaterial]

Greed is caused by the belief that there's not enough.

[immaterial]

A different version I've heard: Too much or too little money is the root of all evil...

[kurious_kathy]

Greed often motivates theft. You ask the child why he took the ice cream, he says, "because I wanted more," or "because I wanted hers, too."



Robbing you of your peace of mind.



Not really, no.

My ex-husband is a home-builder. Not the guy who swings the hammer, but the guy who sits behind the desk. The big boss. Yeah, he builds homes, and that benefits people. Except he often uses cheap materials, shoddy workmanship, shortcuts, and so on. The homes aren't all they are promised to be. We've been in this one 4 months, and the cheap carpeting throughout the place needs to be replaced. You can see the studs behind the thin drywall, see the beams in the ceilings. The paint was watered down, and the whole place needs going over again with real paint. The window-casings began to separate from the walls a week after we moved in.

The place is cheap. And it means he makes more money than he spent, but the home-buyers will end up paying more than they agreed, more than most new home-buyers usually have to, or should.

This is so, because the home-builder is greedy, and wants more than he's entitled to have.

Sounds like the majority of builders out there. But remember there are some exceptions to this where they do give quality for the $$ people pay. Unfortunately these days most people can't even afford to buy a home. I pray God helps those that need good jobs get them to be able to provide for their families again.

[kurious_kathy]

I proclaim the above. Furthermore, I propose that Greed and Faith trade spots on the popular lists of Sins and Virtues.

Don't you have the OP title backwards? On a personal note, if I had no faith I would not make it through the day! This world is full of materialism and I think it may be a good thing to fight the tide. I get this image of a tidal wave that once it sucks us in it will kill us! Is this the big problem with the US, GREED??

[slingblade]

"Entitled" according to whom?


M.

According to the disparity between the quality of the homes he builds, and the prices he charges for them. The homebuyers think they're getting high-quality. They are not.

[slingblade]

Yes, that is motivated by greed, but the argument would be that it's just short-sighted planning, because well made houses would get him more business in the long run.

You don't know him. The only thing he loves is a dollar. Even his kids, who have worked in this business for him, and grew disgusted by his practices, will tell you this.

He was on the news once, for putting in such shoddy heating systems that people were having problems with co2 in the house. Oh, but it wasn't his fault (because it never, ever is), it was those darned contractors he hired. :rolleyes:

[dudalb]

Greed is a motivating force behind much criminal as well as antisocial activity.
Even if not acted upon, it still serves to rob people of their own peace of mind. So, either way, it is a thief.


You can say the same thing about Sex.

[Cavemonster]

You can say the same thing about Sex.

True, but greed comes into play in the world of money and resources, where very often more for me means less for you by definition.

Desire for sex can easily be a winning proposition for both involved.

[AkuManiMani]

Then please name something bad about greed or something good about faith. I haven't found anything.

greed (uncountable)

1. A selfish or excessive desire for more than is needed or deserved, especially of money, wealth, food, or other possessions.

His greed was his undoing.

What drove them was their ambition, their greed for power.

By the definition above the potential harm of greed seems pretty self evident. But since you insist I'll list a few examples.

Some bad things that can come from greed:

-Obesity

-Senseless hoarding

-Crime for profit

-etc..

faith (plural faiths)

1. Mental acceptance of and confidence in a claim as truth without proof supporting the claim.

I have faith in the healing power of crystals.

2. (Christian theology) Belief and trust in the Christian God's promises revealed through Christ in the New Testament.

"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident stration of realities though not beheld." (Hebrews 11:1)

3. A feeling or belief, that something is true, real, or will happen.

Have faith that the criminal justice system will avenge the .

4. A trust in the intentions or abilities of a person or object.

I have faith in the goodness of my fellow man.

5. (countable) A system of religious belief.

The Christian faith has been spread by proselytizing.

6. An obligation of loyalty or fidelity.
7. The observance of such an obligation.

He acted in good faith to restore broken diplomatic ties after defeating the incumbent.


Definitions 3, 4, 6 and 7 seem pretty benign, and even necessary in some scenarios. Definitions 1, 2, and 5 are harmless in most cases but are, overall, intellectually irresponsible.

[Cavemonster]

enign, and even necessary in some scenarios. Definitions 1, 2, and 5 are harmless in most cases but are, overall, intellectually irresponsible.

#1 may be harmless in most cases, but when it leads to harm, the results can be extreme.

Suicide bombers are acting on that kind of faith.
So are people who spend huge amounts of money on faith healers instead of doctors.

Similarly, greed is just as harmless in most cases.

In both cases it is only when greed or faith trump other reasonable values that harm is done.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

greed

Merriam Webster:

American Heritage:

Etymology of greedy (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=greedy) from which the term greed derives (from my favorite etymology source... etymonline</spam>).

Excert:


Greed is almost bad by definition. If your desire for gain isn't excessive, it simply doesn't count as greed.

This:

...is more accurately described as a tendency to judge desires that include those bad things as being excessive.

QFT.

And you guys are looking at it from a more utilitarian perspective. Aristotle and Plato took a more psychological perspective.

[Niggle]

"Entitled" according to whom?

The contract he signed to build the house? Slingblade, is there anything in there about the materials that were to be used? When I was house-hunting, I noticed that newer houses often specified "2x10 joists" or "3/4" sheetrock" or such. Probably not much you can do about the paint, but if he used cheaper materials than promised, you've got him for breach of contract.

[Herzblut]

There is nothing bad about greed and nothing good about faith.
So, you have faith in greed but no faith in faith?

[L The Detective]

Aren't you holding these two terms to different stanards?

If you do not hold the motivation responsible for the actions that may result, then shouldn't that apply equally to both greed and faith?

Example: If theft should not be blamed on greed, then why should (insert bad thing that was motivated by faith) be blamed on faith?