Could you cut it?

[jimmygun]

I was talking to a friend about skepticism and such, explaining how people prey on those that are gullible enough to believe in the woo woo scene.

We spoke of copper bracelets and how people thing they cure everything from arthritis to zoophobia. He said he should set up a booth at the side of the highway and sell bracelets that prevent sea sickness on the local ferry. I told him he could probably sell all that he had if he could live with himself for deluding such people. He admitted he could not, nor could I.

Could you?

:can:

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by jimmygun
I told him he could probably sell all that he had if he could live with himself for deluding such people. He admitted he could not, nor could I.

Could you?

:can: Nope.

Funny, I was just thinking about this one, as a spin-off from the "knowing or unknowing quacks" thread in the Commentary forum. I try very hard to do good science and good medicine. And all the time we have people pushing all sorts of b*llsh*t at our clients just because it sounds plausible and it sells. Could I do it? No. I might be wrong, but I'm open to correction and if anything I'm recommending is shown to be inffective I'll put my hands up and withdraw the recommendation. I won't recommend something just for the money and I'll lose money by putting people off if necessary. I just can't imagine deliberately deciding to peddle falsehood no matter how well it would sell.

You know, we haven't had a thread on Hulda Clark here that I've seen, at least not for a while. Maybe that should be discussed on the science and medicine forum, but she seems to me to be the worst example of pure fraudulent lying among the whole boiling of them.

The Hulda Clark promotional site (http://www.drclark.net/)
The commercial branch (http://www.drclarkstore.com/)
Her personal university! (http://www.drhuldaclark.org/)

And the evil sceptic opposition....
Quackwatch (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/clark.html)
Quackerywatch (http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Hulda_Clark/)
Ratbags (http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/clark.htm) (several more pages linking from this one)

Since it is perfectly easy to dissect a tumour and demonstrate that there is no parasite inside it, I just can't understand the people who give this woman credit for being a sincere nutter. An extremely rich nutter is what she is.

Rolfe.

[El Greco]

Many people are idiots, others are confused, still others are simply immature. Oftentimes people beg to be deluded and given false hope. There is indeed an indiscernible line between what will harm just their wallet and what will seriously damage them. If I could decide that a particular delusion falls in the former category, yes, I would gladly delude people.

Exactly like Atkins diet, infomercials, Xenical, exercise & fat loss industry, cosmetics (big time deceivers), supplements industry, etc. In fact, if delusion were to stop, world market would freeze and we would have a terrible crisis.

[bratok]

I told him he could probably sell all that he had if he could live with himself for deluding such people. He admitted he could not, nor could I. Could you?
But this would make the woo-woo-believers smarter. Maybe with buying a useless 10$ bracelet, they also buy a valuable lesson and, in the future, won't sell their house to give the money to some cult...

[Rolfe]

No it wouldn't, because if they didn't get sick they'd firmly believe that the bracelet was the bee's knees, and if they did then most of them could probably be quite easily persuaded that if they hadn't been wearing the bracelet they would have been much sicker.

The great thing about health fraud is that people almost always convince themselves that whatever they've bought did them some good. The body's automatic repair systems are so much better than a motor car's, which makes this line of business a lot more popular and profitable than car-repair scams.

Rolfe.

[Correa Neto]

I wish I could... I would not mind having some extra buck$ at my bank account by now...

Dammit, whats the diference between this and the pastors and priests that take 10% of the monthly income from their followers plus additional sporadic donations?

A sucker is born every minute. Darwinism predicts that someone will adapt to prey on them. I can not prey on them (damn ethics), therefore I will not be so well-succeded and keep on my boring job and eventually be exctinct with few if any descendants... And so many suckers are born that their population seems to be actually increasing.

What amazes me is that predation in this case does not seem to be improving the woo-woo species...

[arcticpenguin]

If I could do it, I'd be out there making money instead of hanging out here.

[Clancie]

Posted by Jimmygun

He said he should set up a booth at the side of the highway and sell bracelets that prevent sea sickness on the local ferry. I told him he could probably sell all that he had if he could live with himself for deluding such people.
Personally, I don't think gullible people are quite as stupid as you seem to think!

If they still get seasick wearing the bracelet, I'd be surprised if they didn't return, demanding their money back.

If you're going to make fraudulent claims for your bracelet, its better to make ones that are not so obvious to people when they're not working....

[Undodog]

Sell the bracelets. Then later, when it's safe, announce that it was all just an experiment on how gullible people are and that all profits were donated to charity (The JREF).

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Clancie
If they still get seasick wearing the bracelet, I'd be surprised if they didn't return, demanding their money back.Nobody ever lost money by overestimating the gullibility of the public.

The number of people who "swear by" homoeopathy alone should be enough to demonstrate how easy it is to sell something absolutely useless in the healthcare line, and still have people believe in it. Not only that, the bracelet idea is good because it's cheap, and there is an opportunity for lots of new business rather than relying on resale. Something a little bit improbable, and cheap, especially if the customer is on holiday or on a trip when they buy it, is far more likely to be written off with a shrug by those who eventually realise it was a scam, than send them scampering for their money back.

Get a few testimonials into the advertising and this one could be a real winner. And plaster the stall with a money-back-if-not-satisfied guarantee. I'll guarantee that the number of times you'd be called on that one would be small enough to make it well worth while, and it would tend to stop people going first to Trading Standards if they were indeed pissed-off.

By the way, the best preventative for seasickness is to keep your eyes closed all the time during rough weather (or alternatively, go out and look at the sea rather than the ship you're on). Maybe magic blindfolds is the answer, they would have the advantage of actually working.

Is nobody going to rise to my Hulda Clark bait?

Rolfe.

[LTC8K6]

If they return it you just say "Wow! I'm glad you had one of my bracelets! Imagine how bad it would have been if you didn't have the bracelet on."

If they still want their money back, eh, go ahead and give it to them. Very few people will ask for it back, so you will still make money.

Besides, the small print always lets you out anyway!

[zakur]

Peter Huston has written a couple manuals on separating the gullible from their money:

Scams From The Great Beyond : How To Make Easy Money Off Of ESP, Astrology, UFOs, Crop Circles, Cattle Mutilations, Alien Abductions, Atlantis, Channeling, And Other New Age Nonsense
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0873649125/103-0465958-7935807)
More Scams from the Great Beyond! : How to Make Even More Money Off the Creationism, Evolution, Environmentalism, Fringe Politics, Weird Science, the Occult, and Other Strange Beliefs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1581603541/103-0465958-7935807)

[Thanz]

Originally posted by jimmygun
We spoke of copper bracelets and how people thing they cure everything from arthritis to zoophobia. He said he should set up a booth at the side of the highway and sell bracelets that prevent sea sickness on the local ferry. I told him he could probably sell all that he had if he could live with himself for deluding such people. He admitted he could not, nor could I.

Could you?


Nope, and I am surprised that you got a response here from someone (El Greco) who has admitted that they would knowingly commit fraud. (note to self: never buy anything from El Greco)

Now, I am not sure if you are aware of this but anti-seasickness bracelets actually do exist - but they are not made of copper. They consist of a plastic ball on a elaticated band, and you position the ball on an inside porttion of your wrist, and the pressure from the band presses the ball into your wrist. It is a sort of accupressure therapy. I have seen them sold (and worn) on cruise ships.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Thanz

Nope, and I am surprised that you got a response here from someone (El Greco) who has admitted that they would knowingly commit fraud. (note to self: never buy anything from El Greco)

Now, I am not sure if you are aware of this but anti-seasickness bracelets actually do exist - but they are not made of copper. They consist of a plastic ball on a elaticated band, and you position the ball on an inside porttion of your wrist, and the pressure from the band presses the ball into your wrist. It is a sort of accupressure therapy. I have seen them sold (and worn) on cruise ships.

Ah, you were actually too late, I've been expecting such an answer... But first of all, look here (http://www.skeptics.org.nz/SK:VIEWARTICLE::waDeptTOC.1%2CA761). See what I mean ?

So, guess what: By selling you wrist bands I know I would be deceiving you. But you, like most of us, are a mild case of woowooism actually believing some of those scums. So you would consider me an honest businessman. Let me guess... Do you have any ginseng supplements in your home ? Any ab-machines ? Perhaps ever taken fat-loss pills ? :D

You see, our difference is that I maintain a much higher level of self-consciousness than you do. I consider much more things to be delusions than what you do. Most advertisments are delusions. If you are working in an advertising company, as far as I'm concerned, you are active in deluding people. Whats your job, btw ? I am a pharmacist, and I realize that half of the stuff I sell are useless. Guess what ? The same happens in all pharmacies, all over the world. Even with drugs officially approved by FDA or whatever organization.

So, you'd better just express your opinions and leave the lessons of honesty. Because those who can say that they are not engaged in any kind of delusion (be it job, personal relationships or whatever) are very-very few.

I'd be glad to delude you anytime :D

PS: I'm 36 yo and had many relationships until now, but I've never cheated on a woman. Not even once. What about you ? But I guess this is not 'delusion' in your book ;)

[Thanz]

Originally posted by El Greco

Do you have any ginseng supplements in your home ?
Nope. Don't even know what it is supposed to do.
Any ab-machines ?
nope.
Perhaps ever taken fat-loss pills ?
Strike three!

You see, our difference is that I maintain a much higher level of self-consciousness than you do. I consider much more things to be delusions than what you do.
You can't possibly know this. On what are you basing this? On my reference to the seasick bands? I never claimed they worked - I only mentioned that they existed.

Whats your job, btw ?
I am a lawyer.
I am a pharmacist, and I realize that half of the stuff I sell are useless. Guess what ? The same happens in all pharmacies, all over the world. Even with drugs officially approved by FDA or whatever organization.
Uh oh. Am I going to have to avoid all phamacies now? I don't think that I can do that. I think I'll just have to stick to not buying stuff from you. :D

So, you'd better just express your opinions and leave the lessons of honesty.
I disagree. You said that you would sell a product that did not work at all in the way you advertise to people who believed it did. This is no different than selling bogus stock certificates or using a stolen credit card. It is simply fraud.
Because those who can say that they are not engaged in any kind of delusion (be it job, personal relationships or whatever) are very-very few.
Bit of a strawman here. There is a difference between some sort of delusion (bikini babes in a beer commercial) and telling people "if you wear this you will not get seasick" when you know it is a lie. The latter is fraud, while the former is not.
I'd be glad to delude you anytime :D
Precisely what I am afraid of. :D
PS: I'm 36 yo and had many relationships until now, but I've never cheated on a woman. Not even once. What about you ? But I guess this is not 'delusion' in your book ;)
I also have never cheated. Not once.

[bratok]

The number of people who "swear by" homoeopathy alone should be enough to demonstrate how easy it is to sell something absolutely useless in the healthcare line, and still have people believe in it.
Strange, a friend of mine had cured a few deseases with homoeopathy. Really.

Good Luck!

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Thanz
I am a lawyer.

No, I will not make any comments :D

Uh oh. Am I going to have to avoid all phamacies now? I don't think that I can do that. I think I'll just have to stick to not buying stuff from you. :D

Doesn't really matter, I'm sure my colleagues will do an equally good job. And 99% of them won't even be aware of it. Or maybe a doctor will.

I disagree. You said that you would sell a product that did not work at all in the way you advertise to people who believed it did. This is no different than selling bogus stock certificates or using a stolen credit card. It is simply fraud.

Fraud ? If it is a fraud then why don't you prosecute those infomercialists selling ab-machines, mr. lawyer ?

I guess that legally it's not a fraud, to sell ab-machines that don't do what they advertise, eh ?

Bit of a strawman here. There is a difference between some sort of delusion (bikini babes in a beer commercial) and telling people "if you wear this you will not get seasick" when you know it is a lie. The latter is fraud, while the former is not.

I'm repeating myself, but none is fraud, in the legal sense (except of course extreme cases). Creating a false impression about something with an advertisement (by avoiding to state a fact, insinuating something else, etc), is equally deceitful in my book. For example, advertisements of 'light' products always suggest that by using them one will lose weight. This is delusion.

[Thanz]

Originally posted by El Greco

Fraud ? If it is a fraud then why don't you prosecute those infomercialists selling ab-machines, mr. lawyer ?
If someone wants to hire my firm and pay our rates, then I might consider it. I don't go around prosecuting people willy-nilly, just as you don't run around dispensing drugs to someone who coughs in the street.
I guess that legally it's not a fraud, to sell ab-machines that don't do what they advertise, eh ?
But it is. It depends on the claims. At least one ab-contraption company got nailed for this - the one with the electric diodes that you attach to yourself as it implied that you could get washboard abs without doing any work at all - just the machine. A lot of the other ab machines are just ways to get you to do normal ab exercises.

I'm repeating myself, but none is fraud, in the legal sense (except of course extreme cases). Creating a false impression about something with an advertisement (by avoiding to state a fact, insinuating something else, etc), is equally deceitful in my book. For example, advertisements of 'light' products always suggest that by using them one will lose weight. This is delusion.
But you selling a useless bracelet as useful when you know that is not true is fraud, in the legal sense. You will notice that herbs, etc. (like ginseng) do not say on the bottle what (if anything) they do (at least in Canada). Why do you suppose that is?

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by bratok
Strange, a friend of mine had cured a few deseases with homoeopathy. Really.Don't be ridiculous. If there were any way at all to tell a homoeopathic preparation from a non-preparation, including both the "provings" which are a fundamental part of homoeopathic theory and any therapeutic effect, not only would the JREF million bucks have been won long ago, but the disciplines of pure physics and chemistry would be in a tailspin.

There's nothing at all in their so-called remedies, and the fact that there are people who claim to have been helped by them is testament to how suggestible people are, and how easy it is to sell them useless stuff.

Rolfe.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Thanz
It depends on the claims. At least one ab-contraption company got nailed for this - the one with the electric diodes that you attach to yourself as it implied that you could get washboard abs without doing any work at all - just the machine. A lot of the other ab machines are just ways to get you to do normal ab exercises.It doesn't matter what those machines are, it's what people think they are that matters. Yes, having a disclaimer in fine print burried somewhere in the manual usually is enough to protect those infomercialists from being prosecuted. Does it make it less of a delusion ? Of course not.

That's probably what happened with that Electronic Muscle Stimulator company. They forgot to include a disclaimer or something. Because, funny, it seems that are tons of infomercials about EMS devices. And they all look rather delusional to me.But you selling a useless bracelet as useful when you know that is not true is fraud, in the legal sense. You will notice that herbs, etc. (like ginseng) do not say on the bottle what (if anything) they do (at least in Canada). Why do you suppose that is? Ah, my friend... the bracelet is just the tip of the iceberg. If I were to tell you that sometime you will probably be (or have already been) treated with ineffective or sub-effective medication, approved by the FDA and prescribed by a fully qualified doctor, you probably wouldn't believe me... Isn't the interaction between pharmaceutical companies and doctors the ultimate delusion... But I digress.

As for herbs... exactly my point. You are right, almost all herbs say nothing on the bottle. But guess what, they sell better than ever! Companies distribute a separate leaflet that will explain all of their benefits (some of which are real, others not so real). And they will also make sure that they maintain the appropriate public relations, if you know what I mean. Isn't the public still delusioned ? You bet it is, even health professionals are.

If I were to completely stop selling everything I consider ineffective, then I should look for another job. And this is true for most health professionals, not just pharmacists. Unecessary surgeries performed... interesting subject... I'd like to see how you can escape that delusion...

But I guess your law firm only defends honest and scrupulous people... or maybe you are legally covered in doing otherwise... and I also guess that 'not going around prosecuting people willy-nilly' while you are perfectly aware of their delusions, makes your detachment justified, on a moral level, that is.

[Thanz]

Originally posted by El Greco
It doesn't matter what those machines are, it's what people think they are that matters. Yes, having a disclaimer in fine print burried somewhere in the manual usually is enough to protect those infomercialists from being prosecuted. Does it make it less of a delusion ? Of course not.
I am not sure what point you are trying to make. I did not claim that the other infomercials did not create some sort of "delusion" to use your word. I am saying that there is a difference between the images and messages in most commercials and outright fraud. For example, beer commercials constantly use beautiful women, fun parties, great pals, etc. to associate good images with their product. This is of a different character than the mythical bracelet seller at the ferry dock.

If I were to completely stop selling everything I consider ineffective, then I should look for another job. And this is true for most health professionals, not just pharmacists. Unecessary surgeries performed... interesting subject... I'd like to see how you can escape that delusion...
Escape what delusion? Again, your point is lost on me.

But I guess your law firm only defends honest and scrupulous people... or maybe you are legally covered in doing otherwise... and I also guess that 'not going around prosecuting people willy-nilly' while you are perfectly aware of their delusions, makes your detachment justified, on a moral level, that is.
Why isn't it acceptable on a moral level? Am I actually morally required to be all things to all people? Do I have to be an anti-fraud super crusader to speak out against fraud at all? Do I have to prosecute all of the murderers to say that murder is bad?

You have admitted that you would sell the bracelet, committing fraud. You seem to be trying to justify that on an "everyone lies" basis. "But everyone else is doing it" simply doesn't cut it as an argument.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Thanz
For example, beer commercials constantly use beautiful women, fun parties, great pals, etc. to associate good images with their product. This is of a different character than the mythical bracelet seller at the ferry dock.

Once again, you focus on the most harmless aspect of advertisement, the 'association' thing. There are other, much more outright examples, like the 'light' foods that I have mentioned but you seem to forget. Also, OTC drugs, cosmetics, multivitamins etc. They are all false claims.

Why isn't it acceptable on a moral level? Am I actually morally required to be all things to all people? Do I have to be an anti-fraud super crusader to speak out against fraud at all? Do I have to prosecute all of the murderers to say that murder is bad?You have admitted that you would sell the bracelet, committing fraud. You seem to be trying to justify that on an "everyone lies" basis. "But everyone else is doing it" simply doesn't cut it as an argument.

I don't use "everyone else is doing it" to justify it! It is the way things are! Hello! Anybody there ? ? ? If there were no ineffective products sold, pharmaceutical, cosmetics, supplements, health aids & other industries would collapse.

Don't ask me whether you are morally required to be an anti-fraud crusader. I'm not endorsing this. It was an example to demonstrate the absurdity of separating my job from yours. Have you or have you not defended people you knew they were guilty ? Did you lie in a court of law ?

Ok, here's how it is: Roche pharmaceuticals pays for a TV advertisement in order to promote a product against common cold. People see the ad, believe it's effective, they come and ask for it. Doctors prescribe it. According to you, it is me who should be a crusader and persuade them that the product is a fraud, just because I happen to be more well informed than 99,99% of the people. And then I guess you will pay for my living, right ?

Don't just focus on the 'bracelet', most harm comes from big, completely legal companies. No one touches them. No one.

Heck, at least I demonstrate some sense of realism and I am one of the very few in my profession who actually know what they are doing. I read, I learn, I research. I know stuff, and especially in some areas (like supplements, fat loss etc) I am extremely well versed. At the same time, you find nothing blameworthy in your job. Yes, perhaps lawyers in Canada are saints. I'll let others judge this :D

[Thanz]

Originally posted by El Greco

Once again, you focus on the most harmless aspect of advertisement, the 'association' thing. There are other, much more outright examples, like the 'light' foods that I have mentioned but you seem to forget. Also, OTC drugs, cosmetics, multivitamins etc. They are all false claims.
Each claim obviously has to be judged on its own merits. For "light" or "diet" foods, you have to see what they are actually claiming. If they are claiming that it is "lighter" than the regular version of the product, then this is usually the case and no false claims are made. If, however, Diet Coke had the same amount of calories as Coke, there would be a false claim.

But, to get into an area you should know all about, what false claims are being made by OTC drug manufacturers? I mean specifically - what false claims are you talking about? Are you trying to tell me that Benelyn won't help my cough or Tylenol won't help with my headache?

I don't use "everyone else is doing it" to justify it! It is the way things are! Hello! Anybody there ? ? ? If there were no ineffective products sold, pharmaceutical, cosmetics, supplements, health aids & other industries would collapse.
Im sure that some of these industries would be hit, but I don't see a collapse in the pharmaceutical industry. I guess there are varying degrees of effectiveness, but I think (maybe hope is a better word) that most prescription and OTC drugs that are approved by government agencies and marketed by major corporations do have an effect.
Don't ask me whether you are morally required to be an anti-fraud crusader. I'm not endorsing this. It was an example to demonstrate the absurdity of separating my job from yours. Have you or have you not defended people you knew they were guilty ? Did you lie in a court of law ?
To answer your specific questions, I don't do criminal defense work and I have never lied in court.

Ok, here's how it is: Roche pharmaceuticals pays for a TV advertisement in order to promote a product against common cold. People see the ad, believe it's effective, they come and ask for it. Doctors prescribe it. According to you, it is me who should be a crusader and persuade them that the product is a fraud, just because I happen to be more well informed than 99,99% of the people. And then I guess you will pay for my living, right ?
Are there any other drugs that are effective? If someone comes to you for your professional advice, then yes you do have an obligation to tell them that X new drug doesn't really work and you recommend Y drug instead. That is part of your job, isn't it? Advising people on drugs?

If someone just comes up to your counter with a bottle of X drug in his hand (or a prescription for it) then I don't think that you have to tell them not to buy it. But if asked for your opinion, you ought to give it.

Don't just focus on the 'bracelet', most harm comes from big, completely legal companies. No one touches them. No one.
I am focussing on the bracelet as that was the question asked in the first post, and you said that you would not have a problem setting up the fraud shop on the pier. That is the attitude that I am speaking against.

Heck, at least I demonstrate some sense of realism and I am one of the very few in my profession who actually know what they are doing. I read, I learn, I research. I know stuff, and especially in some areas (like supplements, fat loss etc) I am extremely well versed.
Why do you bother? you certainly don't seem to want to impart this knowledge to your clients. It seems that you would rather just sell them the latest snake oil and be done with it.

At the same time, you find nothing blameworthy in your job. Yes, perhaps lawyers in Canada are saints. I'll let others judge this :D Where did I say this? And where did I attack your profession?

[bratok]

Originally posted by Rolfe There's nothing at all in their so-called remedies, and the fact that there are people who claim to have been helped by them is testament to how suggestible people are, and how easy it is to sell them useless stuff.
Rolfe. See http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870193217#post1870193217

Thanx!

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Thanz
Each claim obviously has to be judged on its own merits. For "light" or "diet" foods, you have to see what they are actually claiming. If they are claiming that it is "lighter" than the regular version of the product, then this is usually the case and no false claims are made. If, however, Diet Coke had the same amount of calories as Coke, there would be a false claim.

Such advertisements are constantly insinuating that people will get leaner by consuming such products. After all these years of false advertisements, it has been deeply rooted in most peoples' brains that actually there are things that by eating them you might get leaner. They are still searching for them.

But, to get into an area you should know all about, what false claims are being made by OTC drug manufacturers? I mean specifically - what false claims are you talking about? Are you trying to tell me that Benelyn won't help my cough or Tylenol won't help with my headache?

Now, I should probably have the whole server space to explain everything. The most important and most misleading thing in OTC advertisements is that they fail to warn about very serious side-effects, and they know that most people will not read the instructions or will not understand them. They know it. I have worked for Eli Lilly in the past and you wouldn't believe hwo they promote drugs. But I digress again. An example study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12791938&dopt=Abstract) for the dangers of anticongestants. I can quote endless such studies for OTC drugs.

Im sure that some of these industries would be hit, but I don't see a collapse in the pharmaceutical industry.

I do.

I guess there are varying degrees of effectiveness, but I think (maybe hope is a better word) that most prescription and OTC drugs that are approved by government agencies and marketed by major corporations do have an effect.

You are correct, 'hope' is a better word. Yes, most of them are effective, but this doesn't mean that most people get the right drug, or that there are not ineffective or dangerous ones.

To answer your specific questions, I don't do criminal defense work and I have never lied in court.

This is more to escape my question rather than answer it. What if you did criminal defense ? Furthermore, what is it exactly that you do if I may ask ? Are there guilty people only in criminal cases ? It seems to me that if everything is the way you describe it, you don't really have to resist anything or swim upstream. Too convenient.

Are there any other drugs that are effective? If someone comes to you for your professional advice, then yes you do have an obligation to tell them that X new drug doesn't really work and you recommend Y drug instead. That is part of your job, isn't it? Advising people on drugs?

More often than not, people don't need to buy anything. Same way they don't have to buy anything to get leaner, except perhaps a gym membership.

If someone just comes up to your counter with a bottle of X drug in his hand (or a prescription for it) then I don't think that you have to tell them not to buy it. But if asked for your opinion, you ought to give it.

Oh, I see you are actually watering your wine! Why shouldn't I tell anything if I have prescription ? Why should I leave the patient take something ineffective (or unecessary) if I know that the doctor is prescribing it just because he went a payed trip to Brazil last month ? And why am I more justified to object to a multinational company advertising on TV than to the local practitioner ? And what if I am 100% certain that the patient will go to the next pharmacy and buy the same thing I advised him not to take ? What will the patient think if 5 pharmacists and doctors tell him the exact opposite from what I do ? Difficult questions, uh ?

I am focussing on the bracelet as that was the question asked in the first post, and you said that you would not have a problem setting up the fraud shop on the pier. That is the attitude that I am speaking against. Why do you bother? you certainly don't seem to want to impart this knowledge to your clients. It seems that you would rather just sell them the latest snake oil and be done with it.

This is why I daily delude people like you, because they are unable to do any decent screening. In fact, I am selling less ineffective stuff than most other pharmacists. Yes, I would sell the bracelet even though I know it's ineffective. But I wouldn't give that homeopathic medicine to treat asthma, because I consider it dangerous. Most other pharmacists would sell both, and they would also think that they have provided good service to the patient.

You happen to know about the bracelet, but in this field, where even skeptics are immensely confused, you will be beguiled many times, I think :D

Where did I say this? And where did I attack your profession?

I didn't speak about 'attack'. In any case, I think we have both made our points. I wish you good luck in finding trustworthy health professionals :D

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by bratok
See http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870193217#post1870193217

Thanx! It is bases on some sort of "vibrations that carry information" that are passed from an element to a remedy. Just because our science today can't sense this vibrations ( same as it couldn't see a virus 100 years ago ), it considers that they don't exist, that it is pure water and so doesn't work. 100 years would pass and our grand-grand-children would watch history chanels and say how stupid people were at the beginning of the 21st century.You're nuts, you know. It doesn't work. It never did work, and it never will work. That "vibrations" garbage is just one of the latest tries in a very long line of attempts to find some sort of semi-plausible tale to keep the critics at bay. We've had about a dozen theories, maybe more - chaos theory, the biophoton, coherent vibrations, water "structures", kinetic energy, potential energy, mystical energy.... oh, loads more. They've all been shown to be nonsense.

Actually, the most recent stuff is an honest admission that it is in fact essentially magic. Magic of Signs, by Walach (http://www.vetlab.co.uk/voodoo.walach.pdf). Of course this would be fine if there was an effect there, but there isn't. Oh yes, and if there was an effect there, you or me or anyone could win the million bucks too. Care to try before anyone else gets there. (You may be too unworldly, but isn't it funny that of the entire population of the earth, nobody has even tried for it?)

If you want to believe, sure, don't let me stop you. Just be careful to go to a real doctor if you get really ill. But please don't come over here and try to make out there's any scientific rationality to it,' cos there ain't.

Hey chaps, Kumar's back! Come on in, the water's lovely!

Rolfe.

[MRC_Hans]

Just a note about copper bracelets:

In my country, fishermen used them because they thought they helped against some nasty rashes some of them got on their hands while working.

Superstition? Well, somebody wore on on one hand. Got only rashes on the other. So the case is investigated. Seems rashes were caused by a fungus. Copper bracelet, wet hands, tiny copper deposit on skin. Copper kills fungus. :D

---- Off to look for Kumar ;)

Hans

[jimmygun]

Very 'spirited' dialogue going on here. Now lets twist it a little...

I have a woman aquaintance who believes in all things woo woo. No amount of logic or explanation I have ever offered to her has made the least dent in her gullibility. I know that sea-sick-bracelets are useful only as a placebo and she is going to take a cruise. Should I offer her the bracelet, knowing it will probably ease her anxiety and make the trip more enjoyable or should I let her go without it?

What would you do?

[geni]

If you already own the bracelet fine. If not then do you really want to gibe any more money to the people who manufacture them?

[MRC_Hans]

jimmigun: Since sea-sickness is anything from 50% to 100% psychological, placebo often works very well against it. Expect to be seasick, you will. Be certain you are protected, you won't.

Hans ;)

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by jimmygun
We spoke of copper bracelets and how people thing they cure everything from arthritis to zoophobia. He said he should set up a booth at the side of the highway and sell bracelets that prevent sea sickness on the local ferry. I told him he could probably sell all that he had if he could live with himself for deluding such people. He admitted he could not, nor could I.

Could you?

I dont think I could, its not good business ethics (oxymoron?)... unless I have a sign that says:
Only US$4.95! What a bargain!
BUT THEY DONT WORK WORK!!!! SERIOUSLY!!!!

[Cecil]

Originally posted by El Greco
After all these years of false advertisements, it has been deeply rooted in most peoples' brains that actually there are things that by eating them you might get leaner. They are still searching for them. Celery and some types of lettuce contain fewer calories than are required to digest them. You can eat as much as you want without gaining any weight.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Cecil
Celery and some types of lettuce contain fewer calories than are required to digest them. You can eat as much as you want without gaining any weight.


[Big sigh]

See what I mean ? It is very difficult, even for skeptics, to discern scum in this field. Every now and then over at the nutrition area of the HST forum (http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi), someone will be asking the same question and we will be replying the same stuff, over and over. Here is the truth, quoted from here (http://wellnessletter.com/html/wl/2002/wlAskExperts0202.html):

Q: Is celery nutritious? Does chewing celery burn more calories than the celery supplies?
R.L., VIA THE INTERNET


A: It is good food, but not a nutritional powerhouse. Celery is mostly water, with little or no sugar, so it is very low in calories (about 6 per stalk). A large stalk has small amounts of potassium, vitamin C, folic acid, and fiber. It has 35 milligrams of sodium—not much, but more than most vegetables. Like all vegetables and fruits, it contains phytochemicals. One of these is lutein (see above) as well as phthalide. A few preliminary lab studies suggest the latter may have beneficial effects on blood pressure.

Its crisp texture and taste make celery a good low-cal snack. It also adds flavor to soups, salads, and stews.
Chewing celery does not result in a net loss of calories, as some people claim. The idea of "negative calories" is a myth. Eating celery won't subtract inches from your waistline. But at least it won't add any.

Celery and other vegetables have very few calories, so it is extremely difficult to gain weight on them. But there are NO negative calories. You are justified to believe this because the nutritional crap is all around us. In fact, I bet that if you search for 'negative calories' on the net, you will find more sites with wrong info than with correct one. Some of the worst things I've read come from eating disorders fora, where people are supposed to know what they're talking about.

But I would probably need the rest of my life if I were to debunk every nutritional myth. Dolfzine (http://www.dolfzine.com/altpage03.htm), though it is weight-training oriented, has sound info on nutrition that can be used by anyone, in layman's terms.