Karma seems to work.

[Cainkane1]

I'm 62 years old and four years ago I went to my last highschool reunion. Most of the tough guys were missing. Many had died and others had been injured. One particularly bad person I knew had actually lost both of his feet in a motorcycle accident. Are people with a mean disposition more likely to have accidents than a normal person? Also many of these bully types had done jail time and this includes one person who had beat his wife to death and was in prison for life.

[slingblade]

If karma worked, I wouldn't be homeless, and an alcoholic wife-abuser wouldn't be the richest man in town.

[theMark]

I'm 62 years old and four years ago I went to my last highschool reunion. Most of the tough guys were missing. Many had died and others had been injured. One particularly bad person I knew had actually lost both of his feet in a motorcycle accident. Are people with a mean disposition more likely to have accidents than a normal person? Also many of these bully types had done jail time and this includes one person who had beat his wife to death and was in prison for life.

Well - isn't that just "actions and consequences"? People playing it rough are more likely to either hurt themselves or get hurt. If "driving a motorcycle" says "tough", then "tough" comes with a higher chance of being involved in a motorcycle crash than someone who does NOT drive a motorcycle...

"Karma" doesn't seem to apply in the financial world or in politics, either - a politician needs to be of average intellect, able to compromise on anything, ruthlessly self-serving and willing to play enemies and friends better than they play him. Because anyone too introspective will drop from the radar in the blink of an eye...

Just quoting an opinion piece here, of course ;)

[quarky]

I thought Karma was a concept that involved many lifetimes, as in reincarnation.
If so, there's no judging it, unless you pretend to see the big picture.

For revenge, one must assume the pricks today will have a nasty life next time around.

[Safe-Keeper]

Bullies and other people who do bad things frequently do them because they're living rough lives. They're at-risk people, with bad upbringing or whatever. Which is why the two -being 'tough' and ending up the victim of all kinds of bad things- go together.

[Gitro]

Well, have you ever thought that, because of the way they act, it leads them to do things that are high-risk/illegal? As in, the bully type beats his wife because he is a bully, and winds up in jail for it.

[Freethinker]

So that explains why one of the nicest guys I know lost his only child in a car accident 2 years ago and is now dying of an incurable but excruciatingly slow, painful disease. Church deacon, founded a drug free club for kids, tireless volunteer, great co-worker and all-around nice guy.:idea:

[quarky]

The bully beats his wife because she deserves the beatings on account of being a beater in her previous life. That's the beauty of Karma.

[Dancing David]

Well - isn't that just "actions and consequences"?

Ah, the buddha nature! :D


That is all that kamma is in the strict buddhist interpretation is, negative thoughts, acts, words, intents have negative consequences.

There are other influences as well.

[yy2bggggs]

So, are we talking the rational form of karma, where your actions simply have consequences, or the irrational new agey kind of mystic balancing force?

Regardless, what seemed to be observed by the OP is slightly distinct. It's more of an observation that dispositions have consequences, which may in addition be inflated by confirmation bias.

[Cainkane1]

So that explains why one of the nicest guys I know lost his only child in a car accident 2 years ago and is now dying of an incurable but excruciatingly slow, painful disease. Church deacon, founded a drug free club for kids, tireless volunteer, great co-worker and all-around nice guy.:idea:
I don't really believe in karma. I just wanted a discussion. Horrilbe things happen to great people all the time. I'd also like to add in the case of most bullys like the other posters say they live lives that invite disaster and retaliation. I'll add this. While most Bullys have self induced problems basically they never get punished as much as they deserve. A lady at writing.com told me that a man who molested her ended up on the street where he died a hopeless alcoholic. However she didn't tell the police what he had done. He simply imploaded in a slow karmic self induced disaster.

Sorry about your friend.

[slingblade]

The bully beats his wife because she deserves the beatings on account of being a beater in her previous life. That's the beauty of Karma.

Excuse me?

[JoeTheJuggler]

I don't think one's subjective observation at a high school reunion even rises to the level of evidence that there is even something going on in need of explanation. (Frankly, I doubt very much that high school bullies die young. I suspect many bullies go on to lead very successful lives.)

I think trying to give rational explanations for why bullies don't live long is rather like trying to give rational explanations for the unusual number of disappearances of planes and ships in the Bermuda Triangle . . .with out first verifying that there is an unusual number of such disappearances.

[JoeTheJuggler]

So, are we talking the rational form of karma, where your actions simply have consequences, or the irrational new agey kind of mystic balancing force?
From the OP, I'd say he's talking bout the latter--some sort of cosmic justice.


Regardless, what seemed to be observed by the OP is slightly distinct. It's more of an observation that dispositions have consequences, which may in addition be inflated by confirmation bias.

I don't think it rises even to that level. It could be ALL bias and no observation of any real consequences.

It could be that all the very meek and quiet people, who also failed to show up because they came to bad ends, just weren't memorable enough for their absence to be noticeable.

I wonder how flexible the definition of who is a bully and who isn't was before going to the reunion. (For that matter--are there really bullies in high school? I had 400 people in my class, and I can't think of anyone I'd label a "bully".)

[Tanstaafl]

I wonder how flexible the definition of who is a bully and who isn't was before going to the reunion. (For that matter--are there really bullies in high school? I had 400 people in my class, and I can't think of anyone I'd label a "bully".)


Well, all I can say is I wish I went to your school instead of mine.

[joobz]

Excuse me?I don't think quarky is agreeing with the view. He's just posting the real logic behind karma. The lot you are given in life is what you deserve because supposedly you did something to deserve it.

That's the justification of the Caste system in India.

You can justify anything (good or bad) with Karma.

[billw]

All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just man that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his wickedness.

Ecclesiastes 7:15, KJV

[Cainkane1]

Well, all I can say is I wish I went to your school instead of mine.
Me too. I went to a school where there was a lot of poverty. Some of these bullys were victims of abuse themselves although I'll say this. The worst ones were athletes and some were even scholars. These didn't die young but they had been married and dovorced several times and their children didn't love them. They had lost a lot of money on divorce and child support.

[I Ratant]

"What goes around around, comes around"... but many times on the return trip, you're not there to receive it.
For some reason "quid pro quo" was floating around in the old head bone earlier today before arising.
What "karma" is Maddof existing on?
There's no one/nothing keeping track of goods and bads in any ledger that has to be balanced for an even life.
Life is hard, then you die.
Do unto others as you would have them do to you, because it makes life better for all involved.
If only everyone followed that dictum.

[I Ratant]

...

I wonder how flexible the definition of who is a bully and who isn't was before going to the reunion. (For that matter--are there really bullies in high school? I had 400 people in my class, and I can't think of anyone I'd label a "bully".)
.
I never had a class with more than 15 people at most, before college!
One bully in a class with only 5 people once.

[Cainkane1]

All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just man that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his wickedness.

Ecclesiastes 7:15, KJV
Yes the bible does say that. It kinda pulls the rug out from under Karma in this life anyway. Still bad people do invite trouble. People retaliate, they drive recklessly and have wrecks, they get in trouble with the law etc. One particularly bad person I knew in highschool was making a good living as a used car parts junkjard owner. He was sitting in his easy chair and he died while asleep.

[chillzero]

The bully beats his wife because she deserves the beatings on account of being a beater in her previous life. That's the beauty of Karma.

I don't think quarky is agreeing with the view. He's just posting the real logic behind karma. The lot you are given in life is what you deserve because supposedly you did something to deserve it.

That's the justification of the Caste system in India.

You can justify anything (good or bad) with Karma.

Indeed.
My opinion on karma is described and explained here:
http://www.ukskeptics.com/cms/blaming-the-victim/

While it focusses mainly on new-age healing and those experiences regarding karma, it's pretty much encompassing as regards karma in general. It's a very dangerous belief.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Yes the bible does say that. It kinda pulls the rug out from under Karma in this life anyway. Still bad people do invite trouble. People retaliate, they drive recklessly and have wrecks, they get in trouble with the law etc. One particularly bad person I knew in highschool was making a good living as a used car parts junkjard owner. He was sitting in his easy chair and he died while asleep.

But there's abundant anecdotal evidence of the opposite too: bad things happening to good (or at least innocent people), and very good things happening to horribly bad people. At the very least, there's abundant evidence that it there is no natural law that provides justice in this lifetime (and there's no evidence of reincarnation, so I think we can dismiss that nonsense right out).

Before we go looking for an explanation for some phenomenon, I think we'd need to ascertain that the phenomenon exists.

ETA: FWIW, if you wish to make arguments based on Bible passages, there's also Matthew 26:52 which supports your position.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Ah, the buddha nature! :D


That is all that kamma is in the strict buddhist interpretation is, negative thoughts, acts, words, intents have negative consequences.

There are other influences as well.

The way the local Zen teacher explains it, the Doctrine of Dependent Origination says that all things arise from causes and conditions (nothing exists independent of everything else, or everything exists in a web of interconnectedness), but karma is sort of equivalent to habits or addiction. The more you do something (including mental habits), the more you're prone to do that thing. (And Dependent Origination says that what you do has consequences.)

But I agree, it's not always put forth as some sort of natural law that ensures justice.

[billw]

I think the idea of karma is attractive because of human nature and wishful thinking: we like to believe that the world is a fair and just place, where good and bad people both get what they deserve. Even though we usually learn early in childhood that the world can be unfair and unjust, we still long to see Bernie Madoff lowered slowly into a pit full of starving alligators rather than stay in his penthouse under a plea bargain.

[AkuManiMani]

But there's abundant anecdotal evidence of the opposite too: bad things happening to good (or at least innocent people), and very good things happening to horribly bad people. At the very least, there's abundant evidence that it there is no natural law that provides justice in this lifetime (and there's no evidence of reincarnation, so I think we can dismiss that nonsense right out).

Before we go looking for an explanation for some phenomenon, I think we'd need to ascertain that the phenomenon exists.

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
-Ecclesiastes 9:11

Translation: s**t happens.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Translation: s**t happens.
I agree, but I don't think any Bible passage is evidence. (See my ETA above--must've added it after your reply.)

[billw]

I agree, but I don't think any Bible passage is evidence. (See my ETA above--must've added it after your reply.)

I'm just a little devil, quoting scripture for my own purposes :D

[JoeTheJuggler]

I think the idea of karma is attractive because of human nature and wishful thinking: we like to believe that the world is a fair and just place, where good and bad people both get what they deserve.
Yep--sort of like religion as the opiate of the masses. If you think the injustice you're suffering will eventually come to justice because of a law of nature, you don't tend to do difficult things to change your lot.

Really, a heavenly reward is probably attractive for the same reasons as karma.

I also think both models justify the status quo from the opposite point of view. There's no need to pity the poor or unfortunate, because they either deserve it for something they did in the past life or because their condition is evidence that they are not among the elect (for salvation).

[Safe-Keeper]

I don't think quarky is agreeing with the view.Someone may want to PM her saying that, she may have left this thread in disgust.

[Miss_Kitt]

I think it was Robert Heinlein who said, "The race goes not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong--but that's the way to place your bets."

Setting aside the multi-life sort of karma, I do think that over time "what goes around, comes around" and if you're a jerk, or a thief, or abusive, or someone who uses people, the day will come when your choices will come back to haunt you. Eventually, the law of averages will catch up to you. If you drive recklessly (or impaired), sooner or later you'll be in a collision; if you're a bully, you won't have friends, coworkers, or kids that like you; if you are looking for someone to "take care of you" without you taking care of them, you're going to end up all alone when you need help the most.

Being a parent is really good for my 'karma', because I want to model for her being a good person. That motivates me to be kinder and more generous than I used to be, I think. Growing up (I'm now in my prime) has helped, too. Life is hard, dammit! Be gentle to those around you, you don't know what is going on in their lives.

Just my thoughts, MK

[quarky]

I don't think quarky is agreeing with the view. He's just posting the real logic behind karma. The lot you are given in life is what you deserve because supposedly you did something to deserve it.

That's the justification of the Caste system in India.

You can justify anything (good or bad) with Karma.

Thank you, joobz. That was where I was coming from.

[theMark]

Yes, karma sure is an elusive thing. Sometimes it seems plain obvious, sometimes it hides, sometimes it blends into the background like ... a chameleon! A "karma chameleon", maybe? ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e8WxDd3Ul8

Oh come on, nobody else though of this? Whenever I read "karma", I can't shake that tune. It's like higher-order synesthesia, only I find the "aesthesia" part sort of lacking...

[quarky]

Boy George had to work as a garbage man, for karmic reasons.

Regular garbage men might find this confusing.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

There are fifty different views on Karma, so I can't say for sure if works :p .

[joobz]

There are fifty different views on Karma, so I can't say for sure if works :p .
Do you know any ways to leave a lover?

[slingblade]

Normally, I'd say I was sorry for misunderstanding. Nothing personal, really, but I'm tired of saying sorry.

Don't make witty remarks when the subject is that serious. Say what you have to say plainly, so women like me don't flinch, duck, lash out, and then have to apologize.

Sorry, but I'm so tired of saying I'm sorry.

[Roma]

I hope Karma is real,
so many people have done so many really nice things for me knowing that I couldn't pay them.
I hope they get a lot of good Karma points.

[quarky]

Normally, I'd say I was sorry for misunderstanding. Nothing personal, really, but I'm tired of saying sorry.

Don't make witty remarks when the subject is that serious. Say what you have to say plainly, so women like me don't flinch, duck, lash out, and then have to apologize.

Sorry, but I'm so tired of saying I'm sorry.

No need to apologize, if that was about my post. I need to learn to be more sensitive. I'm mostly a nice guy.

[Dancing David]

The bully beats his wife because she deserves the beatings on account of being a beater in her previous life. That's the beauty of Karma.

Uh huh, that is the hindu rationalization for the caste system. But there are other forms of karma.

[sleepy_lioness]

I'm not qualified to judge how well it stands up to scrutiny, but isn't there some evidence that so-called "Type A" personalities, ie, ambitious, go-ahead, extrovert etc can be mroe prone to cardio-vascular problems? Plus I can remember my grandmother saying of someone who was always very angry and oppositional that he'd die young.

If bullies have lots of aggression perhaps this is just bad for their health?

[arthwollipot]

The answer is right there in the OP.

Karma seems to work.

[ZirconBlue]

Boy George had to work as a garbage man, for karmic reasons.

Regular garbage men might find this confusing.

Yes, he is something of a Karma Chameleon.

I need to learn to be more sensitive.

Or start using smileys.

[JetLeg]

I'm 62 years old and four years ago I went to my last highschool reunion. Most of the tough guys were missing. Many had died and others had been injured. One particularly bad person I knew had actually lost both of his feet in a motorcycle accident. Are people with a mean disposition more likely to have accidents than a normal person? Also many of these bully types had done jail time and this includes one person who had beat his wife to death and was in prison for life.


People with a more mean disposition are more likely to commit crimes than other people. And in a country with good police, they are more likely to be in prison...

In a corrupted country, with a corrupted government and police, karma often works the opposite way. In communist russia, if you were a couragous person and spoke against the government, you would be jailed and have bad karma. If you licked asses, and betray your friends to the government, you would have good karma..

[Hittman]

Don't make witty remarks when the subject is that serious.

I disagree. The more serious the subject, the more witty remarks, especially crontrarian ones, should be welcomed.

It's nice to think that Karma works, and it appears to, a bit, simply because good people are more likely to have other good people do things for them, and bad people are more likely to have other bad people do bad things to them. But it doesn't work often enough. Cops who murder civilians in unnecessary SWAT raids are virtually never prosecuted, while citizens who defend themselves go to jail, sometimes to death row. The dirtbags who created this economic mess are smoking Cubans on the decks of their yachts. Steal an old ladies purse to get the few dollars inside and go to prison. Steal fifty billion from thousands of old ladies and get sentence to house arrest in your multi-million dollar penthouse apartment.

[quarky]

I thought Karma was a concept that involved many lifetimes, as in reincarnation.
If so, there's no judging it, unless you pretend to see the big picture.

For revenge, one must assume the pricks today will have a nasty life next time around.

In my pathetic defense, I did write the above post before becomming more crude and offensive, to drive its point home.

Karma is corruptible, which is why it fails.
One must accept the wisdom of elders to accept who the next Dalai Lama will be. Forget any agendas, we aren't clever enough to decipher the truth.
Hence, the need for intermediaries. Always the sticky point, imho.

[JoeTheJuggler]

The answer is right there in the OP.

Karma seems to work.

And I wouldn't even be willing to cede that much. Karma seems to work only when you look at selected anecdotes that seem to confirm Karma.

When you look at other anecdotes, it doesn't seem to work.

(This is using "karma" in the way implied by the OP rather than any of these other possible meanings like justice worked out in a next life or just simply habit or cause-and-effect.)

[JoeTheJuggler]

People with a more mean disposition are more likely to commit crimes than other people. And in a country with good police, they are more likely to be in prison...

In a corrupted country, with a corrupted government and police, karma often works the opposite way. In communist russia, if you were a couragous person and spoke against the government, you would be jailed and have bad karma. If you licked asses, and betray your friends to the government, you would have good karma..

Surely you're not suggesting that bad things don't happen to good people in countries with good police or that bad things don't happen to bad people in "corrupted" countries?

Again, I think before we worry about ways to explain a phenomenon, we'd have to first establish that the phenomenon exists.

I submit that there is no tendency of people to get what's coming to them. All we have are cherry picked anecdotes and nothing remotely resembling a hypothesis or a test. It's likely there's nothing here but biased thinking.

[quarky]

In a way, isn't it kind of cool that God is so liberal as to not curse the obvious sinners?

Even Jimmy Swaggart can be forgiven, if you believe.

[JoeTheJuggler]

In a way, isn't it kind of cool that God is so liberal as to not curse the obvious sinners?

Even Jimmy Swaggart can be forgiven, if you believe.

I don't know about "curse" but most Christian faiths still have some form of eternal damnation on the books. "Can be forgiven" isn't the same as "does not damn to eternal punishment".

As I mentioned earlier, I think the Christian approach to justice ultimately has a lot in common with karma--at least psychologically and politically. Both are really useful for justifying gross inequities and both are useful for enduring the unendurable (faith that eventually the first will be last and the last will be first).

[quarky]

Yup.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth" is a good one.
(Though, I see it as insects.)

[Puppycow]

Don't think so. Too many counterexamples. Look at all the tyrants like mugabe living to a ripe old age. Some of the bullies go on to be CEOs.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Don't think so. Too many counterexamples. Look at all the tyrants like mugabe living to a ripe old age. Some of the bullies go on to be CEOs.
But I'll bet part of the reason for that is that the people who could do something about it don't because they believe it'll all even out in the afterlife (as in Christian justice) or karma (as in Hindu justice).

That's why I say both approaches are both useful (or used) for largely the same reason. As a palliative (if not an opiate) for the masses, and a way to ease the consciences of the privileged.

[xenubane]

All this talk of Karma reminds me of something I learned in social psych class. Just-world phenomenon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon) is the belief that the world is a just place, so to avoid cognitive dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance) they place a subset of the blame on the victim to explain away the reality that bad things happen to everyone and to make themselves feel more secure.

This is one source of victim blaming you may see in rape cases. The rapist lawyer will appeal to the juries' "view of a just world" to try and say that it was the victims fault for :dressing provocatively, asking for it, or any other BS they can pull out of their ass.

Mind you we skeptics are not immune to this fallacy of victim blaming. When talking about cults some take up the opinion that the people in the cult are "stupid, non thinkers, ignorant, etc" and blame them for falling prey to the persuasion tactics that cults use to gain members. They do so to uphold the belief that they can't fall prey to those same tactics.

Yes as skeptics we have constructed a toolbox that raises red flags when we see something fishy. These flags tell us that we should probably look more into this or simply dismiss it as BS. But we are still vulnerable to those same tactics if applied in a different setting or environment outside of our toolbox. Take Time shares, car salespeople, boot camps in the military, the shopping channel, infomercials, etc. They all use similar persuasion tactics to either get you to buy their product/service or join their group.

[Eddie Dane]

Greek proverb:

A man's character is his destiny

The same high testosterone production that made these guys bullies also got them in fights, binge drinking, risky behaviour, dangerous jobs. It is very likely that people who bully also end up coming to a violent and untimely end.

Of course there is a number of other factors at play, like upbringing and the kind og neighbourhood they grew up in.