I'm still waiting for something to happen.

[JihadJane]

Several times now you have been asked to back up this particular point and everytime so far you have instead avoided doing so by telling the questioner that their question was not posited correctly. I specifically asked about Diamond because I had read some of his work.

I have backed it up already. I do not make distinction between "economic" and "financial" to avoid anything, but because it is real.

Are you ready to do so yet?

See my post to orphia nay, below.


No, do you believe that it is unavoidable?

Probably. The bankster-blinkered actions of the US and other governments suggest floundering panic.


I believe that the way the subject is approached by some ignores that society is not static and that growth need not mean a strict extrapolation of what is in place now.

What sort of growth do you have in mind?

"Imminent" no.

How long have we got?


You supported your statement that something (the financial crisis) is happening with a nod to Jared Diamond. Please show us where he predicted this.



I included Jared Diamond as an example of people who have "been advising people to prepare for an inevitable economic collapse for several years". The financial crisis is a symptom of a crisis in unsustainable growth-based economics.

[JihadJane]

'Where we are headed: Peak oil and the financial crisis'

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5230

[jaydeehess]

Thing is Jane, I heard all of this before. In the 1970's 'oil crisis' we were told that we would run out of oil by 2000. It didn't happen.
I read that by 2000 there would be food riots and a third world revolt. It didn't happen.
Look at the subjects in the OP and tell me that which ones have not been harped on for decades.
In the 1980's the survilaist movements told us to stock up on gold, ammo and canned goods because in a few years there'd be no gov't, no police. It would be every man for himself. It didn't happen.
Maybe its a case then of 'the boy who cried wolf' and I and many others are tired of being told that doom and gloom, societal upheaval is imminent. Maybe we will all be in deep do-do by this time next year and we will have not heededthe cry of 'wolf'.
Then again maybe it is a case of this 'wolf cry' being just another in a long line of incorrect predictions.

[JihadJane]

Thing is Jane, I heard all of this before. In the 1970's 'oil crisis' we were told that we would run out of oil by 2000. It didn't happen.
I read that by 2000 there would be food riots and a third world revolt. It didn't happen.
Look at the subjects in the OP and tell me that which ones have not been harped on for decades.
In the 1980's the survilaist movements told us to stock up on gold, ammo and canned goods because in a few years there'd be no gov't, no police. It would be every man for himself. It didn't happen.
Maybe its a case then of 'the boy who cried wolf' and I and many others are tired of being told that doom and gloom, societal upheaval is imminent. Maybe we will all be in deep do-do by this time next year and we will have not heededthe cry of 'wolf'.
Then again maybe it is a case of this 'wolf cry' being just another in a long line of incorrect predictions.

I understand what you're saying.

Ironically, if the alarm bells sounded in the seventies had been taken seriously and steps taken then to prepare for the inevitable consequences of resource depletion and environmental degradation we might now, as a species, be better placed to adapt to our new, no-growth reality. Unfortunately, as we see from responses to the credit crunch, governments can see no further ahead than trying to press harder on the gas pedal. Our currrent political/economic models do not allow braking, even as we hurtle towards a wall.

Let's speak in a year!

[abenja1]

Since MxW's suspension is lifted, I wonder if he will answer the question of why he loves the MSM.

[JihadJane]

Since MxW's suspension is lifted, I wonder if he will answer the question of why he loves the MSM.

What is the importance of this question?

[abenja1]

What is the importance of this question?

It is as important as when I was asking you why you thought it was funny when debunkers lives were threatened. In other words, exposing sick, demented hypocrisy.

[funk de fino]

'Where we are headed: Peak oil and the financial crisis'

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5230

From your "source"

The current financial crisis is a direct result of peak oil

Complete junk. Total woo rubbish swallowed up by you and that fool Ruppert. Just like he swallowed the conman Vreelands rubbish.

[malcolmxwarrior]

It is as important as when I was asking you why you thought it was funny when debunkers lives were threatened. In other words, exposing sick, demented hypocrisy.

Debunkers?

Or plants whose job is too defend the status quo?

[JoeyDonuts]

Debunkers?

Or plants whose job is too defend the status quo?

In that case, the status quo owes me some damned back pay.

I'm a 'plant?' What organization would have planted me here?

The same one keeping the black man down by putting him in the Presidency?

[abenja1]

All I know is that you are a liar and everything you say is suspect.

Figures you won't the question. Then again, you did already when you admitted you watched CNN. What was even better was when you were whining that the MSM beat you to the doom and glooom scenario of the economy.

[abenja1]

Debunkers?

Or plants whose job is too defend the status quo?

Ah since you know I'm a plant then I have the following questions for you:

How much am I being paid?

Who's paying me?

Where is the money sent from?

How often do I get paid?

How am I being paid (cash, check, escrow)?

[jaydeehess]

I usually avoid calling people liars because what appear to be lies are often just manifestations of honest ignorance and/or faulty perceptions. .

A good tenet to observe.
How do you feel about MXW's suspicion(claim) that some here are being paid to say what we say?
Or plants whose job is too defend the status quo?

I for one am also missing a few checks. Mail is slow, but not that slow.

[mikehh]

A depression is a long recession. That is your economic lesson of the day son. Stay in school=)


and where did you source that definition from??

[jaydeehess]

and where did you source that definition from??

Perhaps from About.com
http://economics.about.com/cs/businesscycles/a/depressions_2.htm
Depression
Before the Great Depression of the 1930s any downturn in economic activity was referred to as a depression. The term recession was developed in this period to differentiate periods like the 1930s from smaller economic declines that occurred in 1910 and 1913. This leads to the simple definition of a depression as a recession that lasts longer and has a larger decline in business activity.

Then the author goes on to explain;
So how can we tell the difference between a recession and a depression? A good rule of thumb for determining the difference between a recession and a depression is to look at the changes in GNP. A depression is any economic downturn where real GDP declines by more than 10 percent. A recession is an economic downturn that is less severe.

So MXW is correct but imprecise.

[mikehh]

Perhaps from About.com
http://economics.about.com/cs/businesscycles/a/depressions_2.htm


Then the author goes on to explain;


So MXW is correct but imprecise.

jay- you quoted the definition i was familiar with.

That is no way states a "long recession"

allow me to focus the point... the 1st paragraph you quoted has no context. any lack of growth could be a "depression" we might as well make the word recession obsolete.

one more edit here. if the paragraph is meant to say 1910-1913 than we are still not in a "long recession" or depression by mr x. 1910, 1911, 1912, 1913- vs. 1 month 07, 08, 3 months 09


as far as the 10 point rule-
a 10 point hit could happen in a day or over 10 years.

but wouldn't defining it negate the 1st paragraph??

[jaydeehess]

I agree that it becomes a matter of opinion. The above link goes on to state;
By this yardstick, the last depression in the United States was from May 1937 to June 1938, where real GDP declined by 18.2 percent. If we use this method then the Great Depression of the 1930s can be seen as two separate events: an incredibly severe depression lasting from August 1929 to March 1933 where real GDP declined by almost 33 percent, a period of recovery, then another less severe depression of 1937-38. The United States hasn’t had anything even close to a depression in the post-war period. The worst recession in the last 60 years was from November 1973 to March 1975, where real GDP fell by 4.9 percent. Countries such as Finland and Indonesia have suffered depressions in recent

So is it 1 year, 2years, 4 years?

The way I read it is if, during the reccessionary period, GDP falls by 10% then it can be characterized as 'depression'. Certainly if GDP fell by 10% over a one year period of reccession then the economy is in trouble. If it was followed by a recovery of equal ,, um,,, amplitude (unlikely?) is it still a depression?

Likewise if GDP fell slowly to the point of being 10% below its level at the beginning of a ten year recession the economy is still in trouble and may be refered to as a depression

Its a matter of opinion, an art more than a science IMHO.

[mikehh]

I agree that it becomes a matter of opinion. The above link goes on to state;


So is it 1 year, 2years, 4 years?

The way I read it is if, during the reccessionary period, GDP falls by 10% then it can be characterized as 'depression'. Certainly if GDP fell by 10% over a one year period of reccession then the economy is in trouble. If it was followed by a recovery of equal ,, um,,, amplitude (unlikely?) is it still a depression?

Likewise if GDP fell slowly to the point of being 10% below its level at the beginning of a ten year recession the economy is still in trouble and may be refered to as a depression

Its a matter of opinion, an art more than a science IMHO.


^^agree

[malcolmxwarrior]

^^agree

We can all agree like good great friends.

[JihadJane]

:dl:

You might want to put your tenacity to a more fruitful endeavor.

On what do you and your dog base your theory about what motivates my posts?



How do you feel about MXW's suspicion(claim) that some here are being paid to say what we say?




I don't feel anything about it. What MXW suspects has some precedents.

I think a lifetime of ideological indoctrination is the more likely culprit.

[abenja1]

I don't feel anything about it. What MXW suspects has some precedents.

And what precedents? Evidence please.

[aviolet4u]

well North Korea is about to launch a missile, if that is any consolation for the first post.

oh and if anyone interferes they will pay, big time.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090402/ap_on_re_us/us_nkorea_missile

[LightinDarkness]

I love how those who so desperately want for bad things to happen keep making the definition of "depression" easier and easier to reach. Before long any quarter that doesn't have 500% GDP growth will be declared a depression.

If this is a depression - or anywhere close to it - we sure are doing great. Malls are packed, restaurant are filled, my credit lines keep getting increased. And if your lucky enough to laid off you get a year of other peoples money's to use to take a prolonged vacation! Can we have more depressions like this, please?

[malcolmxwarrior]

well North Korea is about to launch a missile, if that is any consolation for the first post.

oh and if anyone interferes they will pay, big time.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090402/ap_on_re_us/us_nkorea_missile

I'll break it down for you in 4 possibilities.

#1- N. Korea launches satellite, huge failure, peters out etc. World laughs at N. Korea, no big deal.


#2- N. Korea launches satellite, big success japan and america do nothing, nothing happens, everything cool.

#3 - N. Korea launches satellite, japan shoots down satellite, N. Korea all talk, chickens out, japan called their bluff nothing happens.

#4 - N. Korea launches satellite, japan shoots it down, N. Korea retaliates with ICBM onslaught continuing the Korean war, which technically never ended.

There you go, one of those has got to be right. Let me know which one becomes true on good friday =)

[jaydeehess]

well North Korea is about to launch a missile, if that is any consolation for the first post.

oh and if anyone interferes they will pay, big time.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090402/ap_on_re_us/us_nkorea_missile

Aah, real news. I believe we can all agree that the regime in charge in N.Korea is one which just might decide to go medieval on others and that their ability to carry out threats will be proven to be more concrete if/when they demonstrate long range missile capability(or the tech to launch a medium sized payload into stable orbit).

I don't feel anything about it. What MXW suspects has some precedents.


So you suspect that MXW's suspicions are probable. Gotcha!

[jaydeehess]

I'll break it down for you in 4 possibilities.

#1- N. Korea launches satellite, huge failure, peters out etc. World laughs at N. Korea, no big deal.
Probable


#2- N. Korea launches satellite, big success japan and america do nothing, nothing happens, everything cool.

Also quite possible

#3 - N. Korea launches satellite, japan shoots down satellite, N. Korea all talk, chickens out, japan called their bluff nothing happens.

What would Japan use to shoot it down with? AFAIK Japan does not have ABM.

#4 - N. Korea launches satellite, japan shoots it down, N. Korea retaliates with ICBM onslaught continuing the Korean war, which technically never ended.

N.Korea has never tested an ICBM, nor would they need them to attack S.Korea. You do know what the "C" stands for right?

[malcolmxwarrior]

N.Korea has never tested an ICBM, nor would they need them to attack S.Korea. You do know what the "C" stands for right?

Missiles missiles. I read in an article that N. Korea is the biggest missile exporter in the world.

They will attack japan. I believe they even said that. They most certainly said they would attack the south. but that's crazy. The south is STACKED! we have given them so much money and weapons over the years that S. Korea would whip their ass! My father was in Korea in '53. I don't know why I mentioned that but there you go.

[JoeyDonuts]

What would Japan use to shoot it down with? AFAIK Japan does not have ABM.

If the Kongou-class guided missile destroyers have had their SPY-1F's upgraded with the processing algorithms for the SM-3 missile, then they would most definitely have enough ABM capability to take down anything NK puts up. From my experience with Japanese crews, their radar improvements and tuning are better than ours, but only slightly.

Even though I'd like to wring MxW's neck for calling me a 'traitor' in another thread, the scenarios he posits are plausible. Except for #4.

[JihadJane]

Job losses happen in recessions - even during what you think is the economic apocalypse the country continues to have among the lowest unemployment rates in the world. The only bankrupt thing in this thread is your ideas, which are devoid of any intellectual material beyond "DOOM! GLOOM! THE END IS NIGH AND NOTHING YOU SAY WILL CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE REGARDLESS OF THE DATA!"


U.S. private sector axes 742,000 jobs in March

"NEW YORK (Reuters) - Job losses in the U.S. private sector accelerated in March, more than economists' expectations, according to a report by ADP Employer Services on Wednesday.

Private employers cut jobs by a record 742,000 in March versus a 706,000 revised cut in February that was originally reported at 697,000 jobs, said ADP, which has been carrying out the survey since 2001.

The big drop foreshadows a huge decline in the non-farm payroll reading in the government's employment report that will be released on Friday, some analysts said.

'It's a terrible number. It is almost a loss of three quarters of a million jobs which is possibly the highest we have seen so far over the length of this crisis,' said Matt Esteve, foreign exchange trader with Tempus Consulting in Washington."

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE5303F820090401

[LightinDarkness]

U.S. private sector axes 742,000 jobs in March


I was waiting for you to pull that one. OH NOES! JOB LOSSES IN A RECESSION! It must be a great depression!

Oops, you forgot all the non doom and gloom news that you conveniently overlooked in order to fit your preconceived notions of what you want the economy to be:

---
Consumer spending up

WASHINGTON (AP) — After a half year of declines, consumer spending edged up for a second month in February...

Pending home sales up in sign of life for housing

WASHINGTON (AP) — Tentative signs of life are appearing in the long-battered U.S. housing market.

US Stocks Higher, Led By Financial Sector

Stocks have been rallying for the last month on hope that the economy may be stabilizing.
---

By the way, the first two are from the AP - who is known to fear monger as much as any CTer. The media absolutely adores doom and gloom because it gets the ratings, and even they are having to admit (much to their and your disappointment) that the end is not nigh. And theres much more - consumer confidence is up, manufacturing numbers up, uhoh..a conspiracy!

Did you also know that stocks going up 20% is a bull market, but unlike the bear market which was widely celebrated as the end of the world by CTers I don't see any mention of that. :)

[JihadJane]

Social Security Stunner; Bankruptcy of Nation Moved Up Several Years

http://www.chrismartenson.com/blog/social-security-stunner-bankruptcy-nation-moved-several-years/15944



The Economy Is Contracting A Lot More Rapidly Than The Government Is Reporting, Per TrimTabs

"’Job losses have been accelerating in recent months,’ said Charles Biderman, CEO of TrimTabs. "Investors who think the economy is bottoming out are going to get quite a shock this spring." TrimTabs uses daily income tax withholdings into the U.S. Treasury to estimate changes in employment. According to TrimTabs, the country lost 2.1 million jobs in the past three months and 3.4 million jobs in the past six months.

...

"The key macroeconomic and liquidity indicators TrimTabs tracks show no sign of a bottom for the economy. The economy is still contracting a lot more rapidly than the government is reporting."

http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/04/economy-is-contracting-lot-more-rapidly.html

[Ohnoes]

OK lets take a small break from all this economic talk to look at the bright side of life!

Cat Rescued From Between Two Walls

FIREFIGHTERS had to free a cat stuck between two brick walls at a Derbyshire property yesterday.

A crew was called to the scene, in Belper Road, Ilkeston, at around 11.50pm.

After locating its exact position, they removed an air vent to release it.

Watch manager Paul Green said: "The cat had fallen from the second floor to the ground floor and became stuck between two cavity walls. How he managed to finish there, we do not know.

"We removed an air vent to get to him and thankfully, he was OK.

"All he needs now is a good bath because this cat, which is usually black and white, came out all black because he was covered all over in soot."

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/news/Cat-rescued-walls-Derbyshire-home/article-843554-detail/article.html

You have to admit you feel a little bit better now!

[JihadJane]

Now who can say something hasn't happened?

[jaydeehess]

If the Kongou-class guided missile destroyers have had their SPY-1F's upgraded with the processing algorithms for the SM-3 missile, then they would most definitely have enough ABM capability to take down anything NK puts up. From my experience with Japanese crews, their radar improvements and tuning are better than ours, but only slightly.

Even though I'd like to wring MxW's neck for calling me a 'traitor' in another thread, the scenarios he posits are plausible. Except for #4.

Point taken, I did not know that, and I'll bet neither did MXW.

I asked him if he knew what the "C" stood for. He skirted the fact that he even said that N.K. would attack S.K with ICBM's.

Now if he meant that N.K would attack Korean owned convenience stores in San Francisco that would be another story.

[malcolmxwarrior]

I think you've proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that you are reflecting and indeed are out of your mind. You want doom, gloom, apocalypse, and destruction so badly that you can't reason like a normal person. You hysterically try to turn everything into the doom and gloom you so desperately want.

I can't imagine type of sad existence you must live when you so badly want a economic depression even though all signs, data, and facts show its no where close. You've been debunked so many times in this thread and all you've got left is insults and trolling.

Job losses happen in recessions - even during what you think is the economic apocalypse the country continues to have among the lowest unemployment rates in the world. The only bankrupt thing in this thread is your ideas, which are devoid of any intellectual material beyond "DOOM! GLOOM! THE END IS NIGH AND NOTHING YOU SAY WILL CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE REGARDLESS OF THE DATA!"


So you're gonna say with a straight face that the country is not bankrupt hannity?

Show me the evidednce that America is not bankrupt.

Their debt is tremendous and they can't cover it. They don't produce anything and this depression will last 15 years. Go ahead and enlighten me hannity. I want to see where you are getting this crazy nonsense from.

[jaydeehess]

You want proof that this "depression" (short lived as it is so far) will not last 15 years?

Well if I for one could predict with certainty when such turns of the economy will occur I would be already living happily in the Virgin Islands.

You say 15 years, I say that this reccession will last no more than another 18 months.

Check back July 2011 to see if I am right and if I am wrong, again in April of 2026 to see if MXW is correct.

[aviolet4u]

damn do you think we'll last to 2026? that's some positive thinking you've got jaydeehess lol esp. for these forums.

[Gaspode]

Some posts to moved to AAH (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=58).

Keep it civil from now on. As per Rule 12, attack the argument, not the arguer

[LightinDarkness]

So you're gonna say with a straight face that the country is not bankrupt hannity?

Show me the evidednce that America is not bankrupt.

Their debt is tremendous and they can't cover it. They don't produce anything and this depression will last 15 years. Go ahead and enlighten me hannity. I want to see where you are getting this crazy nonsense from.

It takes an extraordinarily elementary knowledge of finance to understand that, contrary to what you want to think, debt is not bad. No developed country in the world has more debt than they can handle, and no one will for the foreseeable future.

And by the way, it is you offering the absurd proposition that America is bankrupt. The burden of proof is on you. I cannot prove a negative because it doesn't exist. This is a classical CT tactic.

Don't produce anything? My god please read a economics textbooks. Its called a knowledge economy, which is must better than the industrial economy the ignorant want to bring us back to.

Just because you want things to be horrible doesn't mean they will be. You can hope and pray for economic depressions and they aren't going to happen. But like the rest of the woos, you'll quietly go away when the economy recovers as it always does and return in the next recession to declare the end is nigh.

[LightinDarkness]

Social Security Stunner; Bankruptcy of Nation Moved Up Several Years

About Chris Martenson

First of all, I am not an economist.

The woos are getting desperate - having to turn to blogs by people who admit they aren't economists to find their doom!

By the way, the third one is a SURVIVALIST BLOG! Surely they have no interest in drumming up doom and gloom :)

[malcolmxwarrior]

It takes an extraordinarily elementary knowledge of finance to understand that, contrary to what you want to think, debt is not bad. No developed country in the world has more debt than they can handle, and no one will for the foreseeable future.

And by the way, it is you offering the absurd proposition that America is bankrupt. The burden of proof is on you. I cannot prove a negative because it doesn't exist. This is a classical CT tactic.

Don't produce anything? My god please read a economics textbooks. Its called a knowledge economy, which is must better than the industrial economy the ignorant want to bring us back to.

Just because you want things to be horrible doesn't mean they will be. You can hope and pray for economic depressions and they aren't going to happen. But like the rest of the woos, you'll quietly go away when the economy recovers as it always does and return in the next recession to declare the end is nigh.


Show me that I have nothing to panic about. Do you have any proof to your ridiculous claims that the country is not bankrupt?

You're not for real. You're satire. You have to be.

[LightinDarkness]

Show me that I have nothing to panic about.

Argument from ignorance - logical fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance).


Do you have any proof to your ridiculous claims that the country is not bankrupt?

Argument from ignorance, again. You need to learn the concept of burden of proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof). Its a inconvenient basic law of logic that the woos always seem to forget. It means that when you propose something it is up to you to prove it. You have proposed the country is bankrupt and have offered no evidence to prove it, it is not up to me to prove that something doesn't exist because if it doesn't exist there will be no evidence for it. Of course, you have failed to provide any evidence for your claims because you have no idea what you are talking about and are quite simply wrong.

Main Entry:
1bank·rupt Listen to the pronunciation of 1bankrupt
Pronunciation:
\ˈbaŋk-(ˌ)rəpt\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
modification of Middle French & Old Italian; Middle French banqueroute bankruptcy, from Old Italian bancarotta, from banca bank + rotta broken, from Latin rupta, feminine of ruptus, past participle of rumpere to break — more at bank, reave
Date:
1533

1 a: a person who has done any of the acts that by law entitle creditors to have his or her estate administered for their benefit

Lets check - is the government still operating? Has anyone taken over the government and sold off its assets or declared their legitimate intention to do so? No. No bankruptcy.


You're not for real. You're satire. You have to be.

Ad hominem. Its all you got when the facts show you to be completely devoid of truth, isn't it?

[malcolmxwarrior]

Argument from ignorance - logical fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance).



Argument from ignorance, again. You need to learn the concept of burden of proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof). Its a inconvenient basic law of logic that the woos always seem to forget. It means that when you propose something it is up to you to prove it. You have proposed the country is bankrupt and have offered no evidence to prove it, it is not up to me to prove that something doesn't exist because if it doesn't exist there will be no evidence for it. Of course, you have failed to provide any evidence for your claims because you have no idea what you are talking about and are quite simply wrong.

Main Entry:
1bank·rupt Listen to the pronunciation of 1bankrupt
Pronunciation:
\ˈbaŋk-(ˌ)rəpt\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
modification of Middle French & Old Italian; Middle French banqueroute bankruptcy, from Old Italian bancarotta, from banca bank + rotta broken, from Latin rupta, feminine of ruptus, past participle of rumpere to break — more at bank, reave
Date:
1533

1 a: a person who has done any of the acts that by law entitle creditors to have his or her estate administered for their benefit

Lets check - is the government still operating? Has anyone taken over the government and sold off its assets or declared their legitimate intention to do so? No. No bankruptcy.



Ad hominem. Its all you got when the facts show you to be completely devoid of truth, isn't it?


China wants their money. Your T-bills are useless and they realize that it was a ponzi scheme. They're gonna default on their debt. It's too big. They are the biggest debtor nation in the world and produce nothing. They have been living on their grandfathers coat-tails and the jig is up. The party is over for the United states. The standard of living of every American has to come down drastically and they will not be able to inflate the bubble. They are trying but they are only prolonging the agony.

[LightinDarkness]

China wants their money.

Are you just making this up as you go along? No, they do not. If they did, they could get it with 1 sale order. They could at any time sell their treasuries and yet they never do. No one is preventing them from doing so. In fact the reality is China doesn't hold nearly as much debt as CTers think they do. Not only have they never sold their debt nor ever indicated any intention of doing so at any point of time, but US treasuries are one of the best performing investments they have. Not going to sell them, no matter how much CTs would celebrate it.


Your T-bills are useless and they realize that it was a ponzi scheme.

Nope, they work perfectly well. And they sell for cash. Im still waiting for you to take your gold bar to Wal-Mart and tell them you want to buy something with it.


They're gonna default on their debt. It's too big. They are the biggest debtor nation in the world and produce nothing. They have been living on their grandfathers coat-tails and the jig is up. The party is over for the United states. The standard of living of every American has to come down drastically and they will not be able to inflate the bubble. They are trying but they are only prolonging the agony.

The US debt as percent of GDP is far below nearly all the developed countries in the world. If it were so unmanageable then other developed countries would have defaulted, none have. If it were so impossible to keep it NO ONE would be buying treasuries, and yet treasuries are selling like mad. Treasuries are selling so well the yields have gone way down, which means the US government is getting an amazing deal - they'll end up making money off the treasuries they've sold in the past year or two.

What this comes down to is your basically angry and envious of people with more than you. You want to bring everyone down because it infuriates you that someone is richer than you. You want to explain how it is that people have more than you, so you buy into these conspiracies out of the desire to make it some sort of illusion based scheme that will fall down. You want to punish those with more. Unfortunately, no matter how bad you want it, these visions of doom are not coming. Your theories are an illusion. No matter how much you want to see wealth destroyed, no matter how badly you want to punish those with more than you, its not happening.

[JihadJane]

The woos are getting desperate - having to turn to blogs by people who admit they aren't economists to find their doom!

By the way, the third one is a SURVIVALIST BLOG! Surely they have no interest in drumming up doom and gloom :)

Economics is closer to religion than science. It's very hard for most economists to see beyond their delusion that indefinite growth is not practically possible.

Are you just making this up as you go along? No, they do not. If they did, they could get it with 1 sale order. They could at any time sell their treasuries and yet they never do. No one is preventing them from doing so. In fact the reality is China doesn't hold nearly as much debt as CTers think they do. Not only have they never sold their debt nor ever indicated any intention of doing so at any point of time, but US treasuries are one of the best performing investments they have. Not going to sell them, no matter how much CTs would celebrate it.



Nope, they work perfectly well. And they sell for cash. Im still waiting for you to take your gold bar to Wal-Mart and tell them you want to buy something with it.



The US debt as percent of GDP is far below nearly all the developed countries in the world. If it were so unmanageable then other developed countries would have defaulted, none have. If it were so impossible to keep it NO ONE would be buying treasuries, and yet treasuries are selling like mad. Treasuries are selling so well the yields have gone way down, which means the US government is getting an amazing deal - they'll end up making money off the treasuries they've sold in the past year or two.

What this comes down to is your basically angry and envious of people with more than you. You want to bring everyone down because it infuriates you that someone is richer than you. You want to explain how it is that people have more than you, so you buy into these conspiracies out of the desire to make it some sort of illusion based scheme that will fall down. You want to punish those with more. Unfortunately, no matter how bad you want it, these visions of doom are not coming. Your theories are an illusion. No matter how much you want to see wealth destroyed, no matter how badly you want to punish those with more than you, its not happening.

JREF forum- THE place for mind-reading skeptics (Hi-lighted)!

(BTW, what have "CTers" got to do with it?)

If China dumped its dollar holdings it would devastate the US economy, the world's economy and its own economy. That might be the best worst option, however, because, sooner or later, the dollar will collapse anyway.

[LightinDarkness]

JREF forum- THE place for mind-reading skeptics (Hi-lighted)!

(BTW, what have "CTers" got to do with it?)

If China dumped its dollar holdings it would devastate the US economy, the world's economy and its own economy. That might be the best worst option, however, because, sooner or later, the dollar will collapse anyway.

JREF forum - the place for doom mongering CTs to doom monger and then deny that they just doom mongered (I could go back and high light everywhere that you've done this, but your in denial so why bother)?

CTers have everything to do with it - the constant need to believe things are worse than they really are and that all good news is really some diabolical plot against you is a classic CT theme.

If a 100 mile wide asteroid hit New York City, it would also devastate the US economy and everyone elses economy. That has a higher chance of happening than china dumping anything. The power of China is great exaggerated by CTers, were they to decide that they want to shoot themselves in the foot and destroy their own economy by dumping the dollar it would cause problems but its never going to happen.

Nothing is going to collapse, no matter how desperately you want it to. Your probably to young to know this but your predecessor woos have been decrying the collapse of the dollar since the 1950s. Wrong, wrong, and wrong. And oh look - the dollar index went up AGAIN this week :)

[TjW]

Show me that I have nothing to panic about. Do you have any proof to your ridiculous claims that the country is not bankrupt?


Feel free to panic. You seem to have the basics down:
When in danger
or in doubt
run in circles
scream and shout.

[JihadJane]

JREF forum - the place for doom mongering CTs to doom monger and then deny that they just doom mongered (I could go back and high light everywhere that you've done this, but your in denial so why bother)?

I have never denied or not denied being a "doom monger".

CTers have everything to do with it - the constant need to believe things are worse than they really are and that all good news is really some diabolical plot against you is a classic CT theme.

More attempts at mind-reading. Have you ever met any of these doom-mongering "CTers"?

If a 100 mile wide asteroid hit New York City, it would also devastate the US economy and everyone elses economy. That has a higher chance of happening than china dumping anything. The power of China is great exaggerated by CTers, were they to decide that they want to shoot themselves in the foot and destroy their own economy by dumping the dollar it would cause problems but its never going to happen.

Nothing is going to collapse, no matter how desperately you want it to. Your probably to young to know this but your predecessor woos have been decrying the collapse of the dollar since the 1950s. Wrong, wrong, and wrong. And oh look - the dollar index went up AGAIN this week :)

A lot has already collapsed and the world's projected energy supply cannot support the growth that the current economic system requires to survive and that the friends of the financiers are trying to re-stimulate. The response of the environment is another unknown.

As the reserve currency, the dollar has a strangle-hold on the world's economy which enables the US get the rest of the world to pay for its imperial misadventures. Recent events are causing other powerful countries to look for ways to challenge this dominance.


What does it really mean when stocks and the dollar respond to trillion dollar injections? How many more injections will the patient need and are there enough drugs in the cupboard?

[JihadJane]

"The world’s wealthiest nations, the G20 group, have decided to light a fire but have forgotten a very important detail – to check whether there is sufficient fuel to enable the fire to burn. Historically we have never had global economic growth without a simultaneous increase in the use of energy. This means, primarily, an increase in the use of fossil fuels."

Not enough oil for the G20 package

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/48530

[Thunder]

I have never denied or not denied being a "doom monger".



More attempts at mind-reading. Have you ever met any of these doom-mongering "CTers"?



A lot has already collapsed and the world's projected energy supply cannot support the growth that the current economic system requires to survive and that the friends of the financiers are trying to re-stimulate. The response of the environment is another unknown.

As the reserve currency, the dollar has a strangle-hold on the world's economy which enables the US get the rest of the world to pay for its imperial misadventures. Recent events are causing other powerful countries to look for ways to challenge this dominance.


What does it really mean when stocks and the dollar respond to trillion dollar injections? How many more injections will the patient need and are there enough drugs in the cupboard?

Notice the NYSE lately?

[JihadJane]

Notice the NYSE lately?

Shall we pack away our survival gear now? ;)

Does this means that the worst is over and that recovery has begun?

[UNLoVedRebel]

More attempts at mind-reading. Have you ever met any of these doom-mongering "CTers"?
How do you know he's "mind-reading"? JihadJane? You know these """"""""""CTers""""""""" could've told this to him. JihadJane?

I've edited JihadJane's name to read properly. Do not alter other posters names for insulting purposes.

[UNLoVedRebel]

Economics is closer to religion than science. It's very hard for most economists to see beyond their delusion that indefinite growth is not practically possible.
JREF forum- THE place for mind-reading skeptics (Hi-lighted)!

[malcolmxwarrior]

Are you just making this up as you go along? No, they do not. If they did, they could get it with 1 sale order. They could at any time sell their treasuries and yet they never do. No one is preventing them from doing so. In fact the reality is China doesn't hold nearly as much debt as CTers think they do. Not only have they never sold their debt nor ever indicated any intention of doing so at any point of time, but US treasuries are one of the best performing investments they have. Not going to sell them, no matter how much CTs would celebrate it.



Nope, they work perfectly well. And they sell for cash. Im still waiting for you to take your gold bar to Wal-Mart and tell them you want to buy something with it.



The US debt as percent of GDP is far below nearly all the developed countries in the world. If it were so unmanageable then other developed countries would have defaulted, none have. If it were so impossible to keep it NO ONE would be buying treasuries, and yet treasuries are selling like mad. Treasuries are selling so well the yields have gone way down, which means the US government is getting an amazing deal - they'll end up making money off the treasuries they've sold in the past year or two.

What this comes down to is your basically angry and envious of people with more than you. You want to bring everyone down because it infuriates you that someone is richer than you. You want to explain how it is that people have more than you, so you buy into these conspiracies out of the desire to make it some sort of illusion based scheme that will fall down. You want to punish those with more. Unfortunately, no matter how bad you want it, these visions of doom are not coming. Your theories are an illusion. No matter how much you want to see wealth destroyed, no matter how badly you want to punish those with more than you, its not happening.


What? Iceland?

You must have a lot invested in this fake economy to spew all these lies. You are doing a disservice to the people. On the titanic saying everything is gonna be ok. The ship is not gonna sink. You are doing a disservice.

Go with the guys that correctly predicted this bubble. Not John Mccain here in lightindarkness.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/polleit2.html

[malcolmxwarrior]

Don't look at the stock market. That doesn't prove anything. The crisis has just begun and it is only gonna get worse.

[malcolmxwarrior]

JREF forum - the place for doom mongering CTs to doom monger and then deny that they just doom mongered (I could go back and high light everywhere that you've done this, but your in denial so why bother)?

CTers have everything to do with it - the constant need to believe things are worse than they really are and that all good news is really some diabolical plot against you is a classic CT theme.

If a 100 mile wide asteroid hit New York City, it would also devastate the US economy and everyone elses economy. That has a higher chance of happening than china dumping anything. The power of China is great exaggerated by CTers, were they to decide that they want to shoot themselves in the foot and destroy their own economy by dumping the dollar it would cause problems but its never going to happen.

Nothing is going to collapse, no matter how desperately you want it to. Your probably to young to know this but your predecessor woos have been decrying the collapse of the dollar since the 1950s. Wrong, wrong, and wrong. And oh look - the dollar index went up AGAIN this week :)

You're probably just trying to save your butt because in april of '08 you were probably saying "the economy has never been better" "the fundamentals of the economy are strong" you're trying to save face.

Running in circles, screaming and shouting "woo" "CT-ists"

The rest of the world will get out of the US ponzi scheme and then things will really get bad.

[JihadJane]

You're probably just trying to save your butt because in april of '08 you were probably saying "the economy has never been better" "the fundamentals of the economy are strong" you're trying to save face.



Is there any truth to this speculation, LightinDarkness?

[JihadJane]

JREF forum- THE place for mind-reading skeptics (Hi-lighted)!


Do you think indefinite growth is practically possible?

[UNLoVedRebel]

Do you think indefinite growth is practically possible?

How are you able to look inside the minds of econimists and see what they can see? I want that ability!

[JihadJane]

How are you able to look inside the minds of econimists and see what they can see? I want that ability!

It is not economists who decide whether or not indefinite growth is possible.

- - - -

In order to avoid the risk of possibly coming across as an unhinged stalker I limit my suggestions of psychic abilities to instances where posters claim to know personal details about other posters such as their inner thoughts, feelings, motivations and lifestyles.

See also post 288, above.

[UNLoVedRebel]

It is not economists who decide whether or not indefinite growth is possible..That didn't answer my question. My question was, how are you able to see inside the minds of economists?
See also post 288, above.
I saw the post thank you. I don't think I'm breaking rule 12 and I believe I am keeping it civil. As for post 302, I shortened your name to save the effort, not to insult.
In order to avoid the risk of possibly coming across as an unhinged stalker I limit my suggestions of psychic abilities to instances where posters claim to know personal details about other posters such as their inner thoughts, feelings, motivations and lifestyles...
CTers have everything to do with it - the constant need to believe things are worse than they really are and that all good news is really some diabolical plot against you is a classic CT theme.
More attempts at mind-reading. Have you ever met any of these doom-mongering "CTers"?
LightinDarkness isn't talking about any poster. He's just talking about conspiracy theorists in general. Some of whom he may have met personally. Your claim is rendered sterile.