Science Fiction and Christian Allegory

[Stone Island]

BENJAMIN A. PLOTINSKY
How Science Fiction Found Religion (http://www.city-journal.org/2009/19_1_urb-science-fiction.html)
Once overtly political, the genre increasingly employs Christian allegory.
There is a young man, different from other young men. Ancient prophecies foretell his coming, and he performs miraculous feats. Eventually, confronted by his enemies, he must sacrifice his own life—an act that saves mankind from calamity—but in a mystery as great as that of his origin, he is reborn, to preside in glory over a world redeemed. Tell this story to one of the world’s 2 billion Christians, and he’ll recognize it instantly. Tell it to a science-fiction and fantasy fan, and he’ll ask why you’re making minor alterations to the plot of The Matrix or Superman Returns. For reasons that have as much to do with global politics as with our cultural moment, some of this generation’s most successful sci-fi and fantasy movie franchises follow an essentially Christian plotline.

[joobz]

I'm guessing the author of that article never read a canticle for leibowitz.

[Hokulele]

I'm guessing the author of that article never read a canticle for leibowitz.


Or Superman.


(Umm, what prophecy?)

[joobz]

or Dune.

(I can go all night...)

[shadron]

Stranger in a Strange Land? or Job: A Comedy of Justice? Just how many basic plot lines are there?

[Hokulele]

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?

[Doctor Evil]

Or Lord of Light??

[joobz]

gilgamesh?

Wait, does that count?

[Hokulele]

Or Lord of Light??


Ooh, good one.

In the same vein, A Rose for Ecclesiastes?

[Doctor Evil]

In the same vein, A Rose for Ecclesiastes?

Never read that one.

[Hokulele]

The Golden Compass (Northern Lights)?

[Hokulele]

OK, just for fun, I looked up the top box office hits in the science fiction category. Oh look, neither of those cited in the OP made the top 20. The Matrix is closest at 23.

1. Star Wars: A New Hope
2. ET: The Extra-Terrestrial
3. Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back
4. Star Wars: Return of the Jedi
5. Star Wars: The Phantom Menace
6. Jurassic Park
7. Close Encounters of the Third Kind
8. Independence Day
9. Ghostbusters
10. Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith
11. Back to the Future
12. Men in Black
13. Star Wars: Attack of the Clones
14. The Lost World: Jurassic Park
15. Terminator 2: Judgement Day
16. The Matrix Reloaded
17. The Transformers
18. 2001: A Space Odyssey
19. Signs
20. I Am Legend
21. Austin Powers in Goldmember (I wouldn't call this sci fi, but I didn't make the list.)
22. The War of the Worlds
23. The Matrix
24. Men In Black 2
25. Honey, I Shrunk the Kids

How many of these are honestly Christian allegory?

[Floyt]

What a stupid waffler :mad:
Nothing more dangerous than some solid half-knowledge... this guy is heading straight into Langford's "As others see us" items. Will probably get lethal writers block after he gets faxed the Cliff's Notes for Anathem.

[MG1962]

OK, just for fun, I looked up the top box office hits in the science fiction category. Oh look, neither of those cited in the OP made the top 20. The Matrix is closest at 23.

1. Star Wars: A New Hope
2. ET: The Extra-Terrestrial
3. Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back
4. Star Wars: Return of the Jedi
5. Star Wars: The Phantom Menace
6. Jurassic Park
7. Close Encounters of the Third Kind
8. Independence Day
9. Ghostbusters
10. Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith
11. Back to the Future
12. Men in Black
13. Star Wars: Attack of the Clones
14. The Lost World: Jurassic Park
15. Terminator 2: Judgement Day
16. The Matrix Reloaded
17. The Transformers
18. 2001: A Space Odyssey
19. Signs
20. I Am Legend
21. Austin Powers in Goldmember (I wouldn't call this sci fi, but I didn't make the list.)
22. The War of the Worlds
23. The Matrix
24. Men In Black 2
25. Honey, I Shrunk the Kids

How many of these are honestly Christian allegory?

How would War Of The World fit into this. In every version I seen, the lead character is actually pretty passive and being carried along by events

[ImaginalDisc]

It's not as if Christianity originated the messiah figure anyhow. Please revise article to be about how sci-fi cribs Gilgamesh, or Osiris, or Dionysus.

[babbits]

Actually, this thread is very interesting. It shows the human need for certain iconic heroes. In simpler times, people were readier to accept the reality of the semi-supernatural being (or the pure supernatural being).

Maybe it's rooted in the childlike longing for a 'better daddy' or a 'better mommie', the existing, all-too-human one is capricious or not powerful enough or dies or has some other flaw.

We do indeed make gods in our own image! Only better!

There's Prometheus, in Greek mythology, protector and benefactor of man. He was the wisest of he gods. His name means "forethought". He gave mankind a number of gifts including fire. As a result he is tortured eternally by Zeus, the most powerful of the gods, for giving mankind too much independence.

And Zeus displays the autocratic emotions of a powerful emperor, who believes/knows his personal strength and influence correlates with the degree to which his subjects believe that without him they will not survive!

(Cf. Jehovah: "I am a jealous god.")

Also Jehovah had some anger against Jesus, because why else would he require that Jesus suffer and die? After all, Jesus was his only son. And Jehovah made the rules.

I guess that's why Isaac Newton and others didn't believe that Jesus was god. Newton was a very logical guy.

But in these scientific times, even children know the heroes are fictional, however compelling.

(Afterthought: Hey, I'm assuming young people know Superman (e.g.) is fiction. But I wonder, if we did a survey, do some young people pray to Superman?)

Afterthought #2: Hey, what about prototypes? Maybe Prometheus is the God of Modern Science, and that's why a lot of modern-day theists hate Science: it liberates people from dependence on the jealous father-god (Zeus). And they fear that the jealous father-god will destroy the universe to punish mankind for trying to become independent of superstition, the priesthood, and the entire tradition.

Or maybe Prometheus is a kind of Satan-figure: the rebel against the over-controlling, more powerful god. Maybe that's why some people worship Satan.

Afterthought #3: 'Once overtly political, the genre increasingly employs Christian allegory.'

Maybe Plotinsky implies that in the 19th and 20th centuries, mankind tried to solve human problems by creating alternative political models such as communism but these didn't work, at least in their initial manifestations.

They don't want to turn back to the old, abandoned political models from the past, such as emperors, kings and dictators, and the concomitant oppression and slavery.

Yet democracy is in practice, especially (but not exclusively) in an uneducated society, deeply flawed by the electorate's lack of discretion when it comes to picking good leaders.

So once again humans create and turn to supernatural figures to save them from the human condition.

One thing that's clear: the superheroes are more like Prometheus than like Zeus. Prometheus does mankind good in this life, too -- a big plus.

The Jehovah/Jesus combo is not viable, because Jesus is too compliant/complicit with Jehovah. It's all pie in the sky when you die.

[ImaginalDisc]

There's Prometheus, in Greek mythology, who brings mankind fire, but is tortured eternally by the father of the gods, for giving mankind too much independence.

And the father god of Prometheus displays the autocratic emotions of a powerful emperor, who believes/knows his personal strength and influence correlates with the degree to which his subjects believe that without him they will not survive!


The trouble with Prometheus as a father figure is that in the story I'd argue Zeus is the father figure/emperor, especially to patriarchal ancient Greeks. Who are Prometheus's subjects, exactly?

[Alareth]

OK, just for fun, I looked up the top box office hits in the science fiction category. Oh look, neither of those cited in the OP made the top 20. The Matrix is closest at 23.



5. Star Wars: The Phantom Menace



How many of these are honestly Christian allegory?

Anakin is an allegory for Jesus. Virgin birth and all.

[Hokulele]

Anakin is an allegory for Jesus. Virgin birth and all.


Do Men In Black next. :D

[babbits]

"The trouble with Prometheus as a father figure is that in the story I'd argue Zeus is the father figure/emperor, especially to patriarchal ancient Greeks. Who are Prometheus's subjects, exactly? "

Yes, Imaginal, Zeus was top god -- at the time of Prometheus' rebellion. Prometheus was a titan when the titans ruled. Then Zeus rebelled against the Titans, and Prometheus joined Zeus. That was o.k. till Prometheus pitied mankind without fire. The rest you know.

So Prometheus was a rebel by nature?

But Prometheus could still be the god of modern science. Or kind of a prototype for a new god. Science benefits man, if we use it properly. Just like fire.

But what if Zeus is dead? Then Prometheus could become top god. After all, he was wise and very brave before his fall.

In a multi-god system, like the Greeks', I don't know if anyone except Top God could have subjects. It seems that Greeks would sacrifice to Diana one time, Athene the next, Mars the god of war the next, depending on what you wanted. All the gods had their specific temples, priests and priestesses, altars, etc.

Another thing Prometheus did to tick Zeus off was to teach mankind how to trick the priests who made the offerings by substituting inferior meats, and recovering the best meats for themselves. Actually this only ticked Zeus off symbolically. It was man's sacrifices that pleased Zeus, not the actual items sacrificed. Zeus only ate ambrosia, which was better than meat. And wine of course. It was the priests who missed out on the best meats.

[D'rok]

"The hero starts in the ordinary world, and receives a call to enter an unusual world of strange powers and events (a call to adventure). If the hero accepts the call to enter this strange world, the hero must face tasks and trials (a road of trials), and may have to face these trials alone, or may have assistance. At its most intense, the hero must survive a severe challenge, often with help earned along the journey. If the hero survives, the hero may achieve a great gift (the goal or "boon"), which often results in important self-knowledge. The hero must then decide whether to return with this boon (the return to the ordinary world), often facing challenges on the return journey. If the hero is successful in returning, the boon or gift may be used to improve the world (the application of the boon)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces

Old news, Stone Island.

Do you have a point?

[paximperium]

Do Men In Black next. :D
Will Smith is an allegory for Jesus who sacrifices his identity to be reborn as Agent J to save mankind from the threat of alien devastation.
Tommy Lee Jones is obviously God; grumpy, mean, has a tendency of blowing an alien's head first and asking questions later and deep inside is a real softy.
Oh yeah...and they hide their existence and destroy all evidence of the threat of aliens for the good of mankind. :)

Who wants to do ET next?

[joobz]

Do Men In Black next. :D
I heard that once you do that, you never go back.

[D'rok]

Tommy Lee Jones is obviously God; grumpy, mean, has a tendency of blowing an alien's head first and asking questions later and deep inside is a real softy.


Nah. TLJ is the Wizard archetype. He's Obi-wan:



3. Supernatural Aid

After the hero has accepted the call, he encounters a protective figure (often elderly) who provides special tools and advice for the adventure ahead, such as an amulet or a weapon.

[paximperium]

Nah. TLJ is the Wizard archetype. He's Obi-wan:



3. Supernatural Aid

After the hero has accepted the call, he encounters a protective figure (often elderly) who provides special tools and advice for the adventure ahead, such as an amulet or a weapon.
I thought Obi-Wan was Jesus?
"If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

You know, how he becomes a voice in your head, speaks "wisdoms" but has absolutely no power?

[D'rok]

I thought Obi-Wan was Jesus?
"If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

Lucas used nested Campbell monomyths. Obi-wan was the wizard for the beginning of Luke's heroic journey; Yoda was the wizard for Luke's crossing of the threshold.

You know, how he becomes a voice in your head, speaks "wisdoms" but has absolutely no power?
:D

[D'rok]

Are SI's series of irrelevant, content-free threads supposed to convince us of the truth of Christian mythology? Are we supposed to be surprised that Christian mythology, and the larger mythological themes that Christianity is based on, permeates our culture?

Boring.

[blobru]

BENJAMIN A. PLOTINSKY
How Science Fiction Found Religion (http://www.city-journal.org/2009/19_1_urb-science-fiction.html)
Once overtly political, the genre increasingly employs Christian allegory.


Enjoyed that. Thanks for linking, SI. I agree that a lot of mass media reflects the contemporary concerns of the masses; Plotinsky has identified one concern, politics, and lurking beneath it, salvation, by isolating the decade of "peace" between the fall of Communism and the rise of terrorism.

It's not surprising that moviemakers, whatever the genre, should want to pick up on public discourse to make their movies topical and marketable; the strand of xtian allegory in The Matrix (though there's more postmodernism in The Matrix than anything) and Star Wars prequels are good examples. Indeed, there may have been some Christian triumphalism in the air following the collapse of the godless soviet bloc; however, I don't see any more to it than artists, including those in Hollywood, seeking to stay current, and commercial.

Given our Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman cultural roots, we would expect those myths to be accessed by modern storytellers; the pagans, Jews, and Christians told great stories; it's only natural to repeat and update those basic myths, as they're always relevant, and always familiar, at least subconsciously, to Western audiences (I don't share Plotinsky's cynicism about the wholesale illiteracy of sci-fi fans).

[D'rok]

Given our Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman cultural roots, we would expect those myths to be accessed by modern storytellers; the pagans, Jews, and Christians told great stories; it's only natural to repeat and update those basic myths, as they're always relevant, and always familiar, at least subconsciously, to Western audiences (I don't share Plotinsky's cynicism about the wholesale illiteracy of sci-fi fans).

Yup.

My favourite, along with A Canticle for Leibowitz, of the overtly christian-themed sci-fi books is the Book of the New Sun series by Gene Wolfe

[blobru]

Yup.

My favourite, along with A Canticle for Leibowitz, of the overtly christian-themed sci-fi books is the Book of the New Sun series by Gene Wolfe


He's sure not preachy, or obvious about it; sort of an anti-C S Lewis (whose Perelandra is at once one of the most beautifully described space fantasies and one of the most horribly backward and bigoted dramas, the characterization of the scientist Weston as the Devil, in literature). I would be hard-pressed to come up with any xtian motifs in his seminal anthology "The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories" and Other Stories... didn't register he was Christian until reading the critiques of New Sun it came up. Artists whose religion informs and deepens their work like Wolfe are fine by me, as long as the faith doesn't hijack the story, as in Lewis (though it was still an interesting read as insight into Lewis' hatred of science, or his positivistic caricature of science).

[Hokulele]

... sort of an anti-C S Lewis (whose Perelandra is at once one of the most beautifully described space fantasies and one of the most horribly backward and bigoted dramas, the characterization of the scientist Weston as the Devil, in literature). ...


You should read Arthur C. Clarke's letter to Lewis in response to the publication of Perelandra.

[Elizabeth I]

You should read Arthur C. Clarke's letter to Lewis in response to the publication of Perelandra.

Do you happen to have a citation or a link? I'd love to read it.

p.s. Interesting - I never thought of Lewis's trilogy as being anti-science, just anti-science-misused. Although I did think the anti-birth-control crack in That Hideous Strength was a little over the top.

[Hokulele]

Do you happen to have a citation or a link? I'd love to read it.

p.s. Interesting - I never thought of Lewis's trilogy as being anti-science, just anti-science-misused. Although I did think the anti-birth-control crack in That Hideous Strength was a little over the top.


I read it (hard copy) in an article by Clarke on an anniversary of space travel (Scientific American? National Geographic? Something completely different?). I tried to Google it, but didn't come up with anything other than a few excerpts. Clarke was pretty young at the time and very, er, passionate on the subject.

Basically, he reminded Lewis that there is a big difference between fiction and reality, a statement fairly apropos for this thread. :D

[blobru]

You should read Arthur C. Clarke's letter to Lewis in response to the publication of Perelandra.

Will keep an eye out for it, thanks. :)

Do you happen to have a citation or a link? I'd love to read it.

p.s. Interesting - I never thought of Lewis's trilogy as being anti-science, just anti-science-misused. Although I did think the anti-birth-control crack in That Hideous Strength was a little over the top.


Yeah, since it's fiction -- can't say for sure if Lewis intended Weston and N.I.C.E. to represent all of science or just the bad part; however, that his evil scientist(s) are always satanic and only defeated by divine intervention doesn't say much for his faith in good scientists, conspicuously absent from the trilogy, or their profession. Lewis' arch-devil seems to have been materialism; so in essays he'd tend to lump enlightenment science in with liberal democracy and marxism as its chief proponents.

[Jimbo07]

My favourite, along with A Canticle for Leibowitz, of the overtly christian-themed sci-fi books

Loved it, btw! I've read it twice. May read it again...

...just... are you sure it's overtly christian themed? I mean, there's a bit of what? Whimsy? It has a saint with a Jewish name. There are definitely religious (perhaps even supernatural) elements, but I'm not sure the story is a direct christian allegory. In fact, it seemed to me to be more about all-too-human history...

[D'rok]

Loved it, btw! I've read it twice. May read it again...

...just... are you sure it's overtly christian themed? I mean, there's a bit of what? Whimsy? It has a saint with a Jewish name. There are definitely religious (perhaps even supernatural) elements, but I'm not sure the story is a direct christian allegory. In fact, it seemed to me to be more about all-too-human history...

Actually, strictly speaking, I would say it is overtly Catholic, rather than Christian qua Christian. But it isn't dogma; it's only thematically Catholic. It transposes Catholic themes onto speculative future history.

[pipelineaudio]

I cant even watch that galactica show anymore its massive woooooooooooowooooooo god this and god that

[fuelair]

gilgamesh?

Wait, does that count?Of course it does!.

[godless dave]

I don't really think it's increasing, nor was science fiction once "overtly political". Science fiction has explored a variety of themes since Wells, Verne, and Gernsback.

We are talking about literature, not movies, right?

[Darat]

Yup.

My favourite, along with A Canticle for Leibowitz, of the overtly christian-themed sci-fi books is the Book of the New Sun series by Gene Wolfe

Have you read The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell?

[joobz]

Actually, strictly speaking, I would say it is overtly Catholic, rather than Christian qua Christian. But it isn't dogma; it's only thematically Catholic. It transposes Catholic themes onto speculative future history.
From what I remember of the story, it contained the wandering jew in it as well. Is that a catholic theme?

[D'rok]

Have you read The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell?
Nope. After a quick google, it looks interesting though. Jesuits in space, eh?

And Brad Pitt's production company has the movie rights with Pitt to star. Hmmm...

[D'rok]

From what I remember of the story, it contained the wandering jew in it as well. Is that a catholic theme?Well, yes and no. The myth originates long before the Reformation, but it certainly isn't official Catholic doctrine.

In the book, it was a literary device that tied the three ages together and foreshadowed the second coming...

...which arrived on the shoulder of Mrs. Grales

[Gord_in_Toronto]

After a bit of Googling in an effort to refresh my aging memory, I find that the general conclusion is that are only a finite number of plots anyway. :D

The number ranges upward from one, but the consensus appears to settle around seven. One such set is:

1. Overcoming the monster
2. Rags to riches
3. A journey - the quest
4. A journey - the voyage and return
5. Comedies
6. Tragedies
7. RebirthGiven the number of tales told over the millennia, there is bound to be some little repetition.

As far as the OP is concerned: it sounds like a typical pronouncement by someone who is neither an expert on SF nor read very much of it. :scared:

[Mark6]

1. Overcoming the monster
2. Rags to riches
3. A journey - the quest
4. A journey - the voyage and return
5. Comedies
6. Tragedies
7. Rebirth

Where does "2001: Space Odyssey" fit in this? Possibly "Rebirth", but it is just the ending.

[Mark6]

Here is a story which I daresy does not fit in ANY "millennia-old" plot category:

Overcoming Bias: The Baby-Eating Aliens (http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/01/the-babyeating-aliens.html)

[Mark6]

What I probably love the most about science fiction is that it allows writers to break out of these hoary "all possible plots", whether it is seven or 26 (the number John Campbell claimed). One novel plot common in modern SF (not so much in "Golden Age SF") is "What does it mean to be human?" Granted, this question HAS been explored in pre-20th Century stories, but until present time they had only two possible answers:

1. "Everybody is ultimately human, however different they may look" -- admittedly, there is A LOT of that in science fiction.

2. "Some people may look human, but in reality are Others to be confronted and destroyed".

Modern SF has at least two answers impossible in the past:

1. "Something/someone may be fundamentally inhuman, yet it does not make them evil, and some kind of interaction is possible"

2. "Whatever one thinks 'human' is, is subject to debate or personal preference, and people are free to abandon some aspects of humanity and take up aspect of machines/animals/aliens. Conflict may arise, but is not inevitable. Vive la difference!"

[drkitten]

Where does "2001: Space Odyssey" fit in this? Possibly "Rebirth", but it is just the ending.


At a guess -- in part because it's entitled "2001: A Space Odyssey -- might it be the Odyssey story, i.e. "A journey - the voyage and return"?

[Mark6]

There is no return. At least not in normal sense of that word.

[drkitten]

My favourite, along with A Canticle for Leibowitz, of the overtly christian-themed sci-fi books is the Book of the New Sun series by Gene Wolfe

I think my all-time-favorite Christian SF is A Case For Conscience by James Blish.

[drkitten]

There is no return. At least not in normal sense of that word.

There is never a "normal" return at the end of the Odyssey story. That is, indeed, the whole (expurgated) point of the Odyssey.

[fuelair]

What I probably love the most about science fiction is that it allows writers to break out of these hoary "all possible plots", whether it is seven or 26 (the number John Campbell claimed). One novel plot common in modern SF (not so much in "Golden Age SF") is "What does it mean to be human?" Granted, this question HAS been explored in pre-20th Century stories, but until present time they had only two possible answers:

1. "Everybody is ultimately human, however different they may look" -- admittedly, there is A LOT of that in science fiction.

2. "Some people may look human, but in reality are Others to be confronted and destroyed".

Modern SF has at least two answers impossible in the past:

1. "Something/someone may be fundamentally inhuman, yet it does not make them evil, and some kind of interaction is possible"

2. "Whatever one thinks 'human' is, is subject to debate or personal preference, and people are free to abandon some aspects of humanity and take up aspect of machines/animals/aliens. Conflict may arise, but is not inevitable. Vive la difference!"
Other than Stanley Weinbaum and then a lot of people around the New Worlds times back about 30 some odd years the what is it to be human/alien was not explored much in the past. Source of both very good and really boring stories (not the same ones of course).

[fuelair]

I think my all-time-favorite Christian SF is A Case For Conscience by James Blish.
True classic along with Leibowitz.

BTB, I may have missed it, but I did not see Orson Scott Card mentioned (apologies if I overlooked).

[D'rok]

True classic along with Leibowitz.

BTB, I may have missed it, but I did not see Orson Scott Card mentioned (apologies if I overlooked).For a douchey douchebag, Uncle Orson has actually written some thoughtful Christian-themed stuff. I've re-read The Worthington Saga several times.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I think my all-time-favorite Christian SF is A Case For Conscience by James Blish.

It's one of mine too. :) I'm trying to remember the name and author of a short story about a robot priest in a future, somewhat post-apocalyptic, world.

[godless dave]

For a douchey douchebag, Uncle Orson has actually written some thoughtful Christian-themed stuff.

Card is one of several authors who has social and political views I abhor but writes fiction that I really like. I find this neither surprising nor paradoxical; there's more to the human condition than social or political views.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

It's one of mine too. :) I'm trying to remember the name and author of a short story about a robot priest in a future, somewhat post-apocalyptic, world.

Got it!
"The Quest for Saint Aquin", Anthony Boucher (short story, science fiction)

First published: Raymond J Healy (Ed)'s "New Tales of Space & Time" (1951)

In a future dystopia where most people have fallen back to primitive existence, the very few ruling elite are technologically advanced & planet-faring, & where Christianity is banned in the US, an underground Christian movement in California has sent an agent to confirm rumors of a messiah in a remote village. And he gets astonished after discovering the thing that makes the long dead body of this rumored messiah special.
http://variety-sf.blogspot.com/2008/05/anthony-boucher-quest-for-saint-aquin.html

The_Quest_for_St._Aquin
I did remember! There is hope after all! :D

[fuelair]

Got it!
"The Quest for Saint Aquin", Anthony Boucher (short story, science fiction)

First published: Raymond J Healy (Ed)'s "New Tales of Space & Time" (1951)

http://variety-sf.blogspot.com/2008/05/anthony-boucher-quest-for-saint-aquin.html

The_Quest_for_St._Aquin
I did remember! There is hope after all! :DSo, now you have done well in two literary/SF threads. Way cool and pip,pip!!:):):):)

[ImaginalDisc]

Modern SF has at least two answers impossible in the past:

1. "Something/someone may be fundamentally inhuman, yet it does not make them evil, and some kind of interaction is possible"

2. "Whatever one thinks 'human' is, is subject to debate or personal preference, and people are free to abandon some aspects of humanity and take up aspect of machines/animals/aliens. Conflict may arise, but is not inevitable. Vive la difference!"

Orson Scott Card borrowed terms relating to strangers from some Scandinavian language for his Ender's Game series, and the character frequently debate whether different aliens are one type of stranger or another.

"Utlannings are strangers from our world. Framlings are strangers of our own species but from another world. Ramen are strangers of another species, but capable of communication with us, capable of co-existence with humanity.

<snip>

Varelse. . .an alien species that we cannot possibly communicate with, an alien species that we cannot live with."

From Xenocide.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

So, now you have done well in two literary/SF threads. Way cool and pip,pip!!:):):):)

Thank you.

When one gets to be my age, any indication that the brain is still functional is a cause for celebration. :o

[Wudang]

My favourite Jesuits in space story would be "Cestus Dei" by John Maddox Roberts. Quite fun. Actually the eponymous Jesuit order is probably the highlight.

[godless dave]

Now if you're looking for full-on treatments of religion in science fiction, there's "The Jesus Incident" by Frank Herbert and Bill Ransom. It was published in 1979, so it's another example of this not being a recent development. It has some interesting ideas. It also led me to think that Frank Herbert might have taken just a little too much acid.

The sequel, "The Lazarus Effect", was even weirder and much less comprehensible.

[JoeTheJuggler]

My favourite Jesuits in space story would be "Cestus Dei" by John Maddox Roberts. Quite fun. Actually the eponymous Jesuit order is probably the highlight.

I don't know if the narrator was a Jesuit, but something like it in Arthur C. Clarke's short story, "The Star".

[JoeTheJuggler]

Someone here is bound to recognize this story (I don't remember title or author): a young man discovers the secret of time travel and decides to go back to see Jesus himself. He discovers that Jesus was born mentally deficient. However, people began associating him with the name (since he was asking about him), and they begin attributing miracles to him. Before long, he realized that he is the historical Jesus the whole thing was based on. It ends with him calling out his girlfriend's name from the cross (and it is misunderstood--doubly so).

[D'rok]

Sounds a little bit like "Behold the Man" by Michael Moorcock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behold_the_Man

[JoeTheJuggler]

Sounds a little bit like "Behold the Man" by Michael Moorcock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behold_the_Man

That's it. Thanks. My memory wasn't too far off. (I thought at the end he said, "Mona! Mona! It's a lie. . . ")

I think I read the shorter version of the two (it definitely wasn't a stand-alone novel).