Monosodium Glutamate - a dangerous additive or not?

[simonmaal]

Is monosodium glutamate in any way harmful? Conventional wisdom says yes but I can't seem to find any evidence that this much-maligned flavour enhancer creates any harmful effects except perhaps causing you to eat more and subsequently gaining weight! Not a single study I've looked at has found any convincing sign of effects on anything other than the taste buds!

However, there are many peddlars of poppycock prepared to use pseudo science to wail their litany of woe about another "nasty chemical". Take the following site which, at first glance, appears to be credible until we look closer and read the following type of anecdote:

Many of you have seen reductions in pain by avoiding MSG and aspartame You all must know by now how MSG and aspartame worsen your pain.Did anybody tell this person about the placebo effect? Or am I just getting cynical these days?

Can anybody shed any light on this subject please? Is MSG in any way harmful?

[Skwinty]

Can anybody shed any light on this subject please? Is MSG in any way harmful?


I remember reading an article many years about "Chinese restuarant stiff neck syndrome". Apparently the MSG caused the stiff neck problem.

[Seanette]

I do know that people who need to restrict sodium in their diets should be careful about MSG. I've also heard that MSG can trigger migraines in some people. Other than that, AFAIK, no proven danger.

[ponderingturtle]

I do know that people who need to restrict sodium in their diets should be careful about MSG. I've also heard that MSG can trigger migraines in some people. Other than that, AFAIK, no proven danger.

And after all it is an all natural soy extract.

[fuelair]

I remember reading an article many years about "Chinese restuarant stiff neck syndrome". Apparently the MSG caused the stiff neck problem.

Having officially suffered it in locations where everything else was normal, but excess MSG was present (my food, my fault) I can testify to it's reality - and the first time was in the mid-60s reasonably well before things about Chinese Restaurant Syndrome started up. I added a deal of MSG to Bounty Beef Stew
(more than I normally would) and noticed about half way through eating a weird, pin-prickly, not good feeling from the back of my head down to just about the bottom of my shoulder blades. Cut my use of MSG and did not have it again until one night over ten years later at a Chinese restaurant in Nashville. Never went back. Never had it again anywhere. However, took a young, vaguely related couple to a favorite Chinese restaurant in New Port Richey, FL. and, about half-way through, they got the same symptoms as well as (I don't know if I had this one-never thought to look in a mirror - didn't need to with them)red faces/shoulders (front). The restaurant said (and I believe them) they never added MSG to their cooking - I figure one or more of the ingredients came with MSG in it.

[jimtron]

Here's a bit of info, with sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#Health_concerns

[simonmaal]

I remember reading an article many years about "Chinese restuarant stiff neck syndrome". Apparently the MSG caused the stiff neck problem.

This was once believed to be the cause but there was never any evidence to isolate MSG as the cause. Research suggests that such reactions are likely caused by allergic reactions to peanuts (of which evidence of severe allergic reactions are well documented) or shellfish intolerances. I would have thought in the majority of cases, MSG is used as a cover-up for inferior ingredients.

Many beneficial foods such as tomatoes and carrots are high in glutamates and do people suffer from "Chinese restaurant stiff neck syndrome" after eating them?

ETA: Found this interesting link:

http://www.umamiinfo.com/umami-rich_food/

[simonmaal]

Having officially suffered it in locations where everything else was normal, but excess MSG was present (my food, my fault) I can testify to it's reality - and the first time was in the mid-60s reasonably well before things about Chinese Restaurant Syndrome started up. I added a deal of MSG to Bounty Beef Stew
(more than I normally would) and noticed about half way through eating a weird, pin-prickly, not good feeling from the back of my head down to just about the bottom of my shoulder blades. Cut my use of MSG and did not have it again until one night over ten years later at a Chinese restaurant in Nashville. Never went back. Never had it again anywhere. However, took a young, vaguely related couple to a favorite Chinese restaurant in New Port Richey, FL. and, about half-way through, they got the same symptoms as well as (I don't know if I had this one-never thought to look in a mirror - didn't need to with them)red faces/shoulders (front). The restaurant said (and I believe them) they never added MSG to their cooking - I figure one or more of the ingredients came with MSG in it.

Surely you must realize that such anecdotes do not provide evidence that MSG was the cause?

[Skwinty]

This was once believed to be the cause but there was never any evidence to isolate MSG as the cause. Research suggests that such reactions are likely caused by allergic reactions to peanuts (of which evidence of severe allergic reactions are well documented) or shellfish intolerances. I would have thought in the majority of cases, MSG is used as a cover-up for inferior ingredients.

Many beneficial foods such as tomatoes and carrots are high in glutamates and do people suffer from "Chinese restaurant stiff neck syndrome" after eating them?

As I said, I read this article many years ago and I said apparently the MSG was responsible. As you youself say, This was once believed to be the cause. I am not unequivocally stating that MSG is or was responsible.

ETA:: apparent=manifest to the senses or mind as real or true on the basis of evidence that may or may not be factually valid

[Doghouse Reilly]

Whenever this topic comes up, I can't help but think that those believing they suffer from msg sensitivity, and associate it with Chinese restaurants, have no true understanding of how much msg is used in foods of all kinds in restaurants of all kinds. In no way is msg an ingredient unique to Chinese restaurants. Places like Marie Callender's, Denny's, etc, use msg liberally in almost all of their dishes.

[fuelair]

Surely you must realize that such anecdotes do not provide evidence that MSG was the cause?Of course they don't, nor was I tested medically after each. On the other hand, the shellfish angle cannot work for the first one of mine unless Campbells lied about what was in the beef stew. (That is, of the things suggested as possible causes only carrots (glutamate source), tomatos (glutamate source) and an excess of MSG were present the first time - the excess was above two teaspoons).
Generally, anecdotes can provide ways for medical testing to go and things to check for.
The other thing about anecdotes - especially unusual ones - is that although the plural of anecdote is not facts a person experienceing a condition without ever having heard or read of it anywhere else certainly can only be biased by the actual experience. On hearing descriptions much later matching his situation, it makes him suspect a connection of some sort likely exists.

[fuelair]

This was once believed to be the cause but there was never any evidence to isolate MSG as the cause. Research suggests that such reactions are likely caused by allergic reactions to peanuts (of which evidence of severe allergic reactions are well documented) or shellfish intolerances. I would have thought in the majority of cases, MSG is used as a cover-up for inferior ingredients.

Many beneficial foods such as tomatoes and carrots are high in glutamates and do people suffer from "Chinese restaurant stiff neck syndrome" after eating them?

ETA: Found this interesting link:

http://www.umamiinfo.com/umami-rich_food/Should also note I can eat peanuts, shrimp and lobster and crab all day long seperately or together with no effect except a notable rise in weight. I.e. no allergy to either of the suspect groups - and none of the effect concerned breathing for me or others I have heard of. It is my understanding that like bee sting, peanut allergies and shellfish allergies both involve anaphylactic shock which includes breathing difficulty to suffocation.

And Bounty Beef Stew contained neither peanuts or shellfish as ingredients.

However, I would suggest for reasons of my own a study of the effects of MSG mixed with Beef Stock.

[Mojo]

I suspect that the idea that MSG must be harmful originated because in the 1970s "monosodium glutamate" usually had the longest, and most "chemical" sounding, name on the list of ingredients in many prepared foods.

[Beanbag]

Chuen: "Does everything in your country come with monosod...monosid...monosodia--"
Remo: "That's 'monosodium glutamate.' You can't even say the word."
Chuen: "I can say 'rat droppings.' That does not mean I wish to eat them."

I for one wouldn't think of eating haggis (which is strange because I've eaten cheddar-cheese flavored mealworms), but there are people who do.

Short answer: if you don't want to eat it, then don't. But as it has been pointed out, MSG is added to a lot of processed food of non-Oriental nature. I suspect it's a lot like peanuts: a certain minority have a bad reaction to them. If it was truly dangerous, there'd be a long trail of dead and dying outside the Hong Kong Express buffet just down the road.

Beanbag

[luchog]

Short answer: if you don't want to eat it, then don't. But as it has been pointed out, MSG is added to a lot of processed food of non-Oriental nature. I suspect it's a lot like peanuts: a certain minority have a bad reaction to them. If it was truly dangerous, there'd be a long trail of dead and dying outside the Hong Kong Express buffet just down the road.

Well, be fair, too much of anything is potentially harmful. It's also fairly simple for people to be sensitive to various substances without having an actual allergy.

I can't speak to the "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome", but I do know that MSG is one of the best known and documented dietary migraine triggers. I have to read labels on pretty much everything I buy to ensure that it doesn't have MSG in it, or I will end up in bed for days.

[Beanbag]

Well, be fair, too much of anything is potentially harmful. It's also fairly simple for people to be sensitive to various substances without having an actual allergy.

I can't speak to the "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome", but I do know that MSG is one of the best known and documented dietary migraine triggers. I have to read labels on pretty much everything I buy to ensure that it doesn't have MSG in it, or I will end up in bed for days.
Labeling has always been an issue. While I think it's great for companies to advertise their product as "No MSG Added," I think it would be better that a person didn't have to read through 4-point type to see if MSG is there at all.

Jalapenos. I hate them. Not because they are hot, but because they give me hiccups. Painful hiccups. I always check the menu to see if they list jalapenos, and don't order anything with them listed. Unfortunately, Burger King DOES NOT list jalapenos as being in their Texas Burger, and acted like I was a total loon (while hiccuping uncontrollably after just one bite) for complaining about them being there. Like migranes, it wasn't life-threatening, but I was miserable and pretty much incapacitated until the spell passed.

Beanbag

[JoeTheJuggler]

I've never had any MSG sensitivity, and I really miss that taste since most restaurants don't use it anymore.

[Taffer]

Some people are allergic to MSG, that's all. Some people are allergic to peanuts too, but that doesn't make it bad for you.

[simonmaal]

The conversation thus far has not provided any objective evidence to support the claim that MSG is harmful. But I have subsequently found two interesting (and conflicting) studies on its association with weight gain:

http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v16/n8/abs/oby2008274a.html

The conclusion is that MSG intake is correlated with being overweight. However, this does not prove beyond doubt that MSG caused the weight gain; there may well be a third factor that causes both. Indeed, another study found that MSG intake reduces weight gain:

http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Science-Nutrition/MSG-may-reduce-body-weight-gain-Ajinomoto-study

So although we are left with more questions, we do not have one scrap of evidence that MSG is in any way harmful (apart from when it acts as an allergen, which could explain the beef stew issue).

As for the beef stew, I'm not familiar with the product but if it was mass produced then it was highly likely produced in an environment where nuts were present and therefore found their way into the food (due to the ingredients being manufactured/combined on the same equipment as nut products). Sitting here, however, I have no way to determine or prove this but I did a search of Campbell's site and did not find any guarantee of a nut free environment; I'm not calling for a negative to be disproven, just going by common labelling practice. But that is a moot point anyway since you mentioned nuts are fine for you but it can explain other cases.

[Old Bob]

MSG is a neuro-toxin and it is added to most processed foods using a variety of names. My wife has a list, 36 names like "Accent-ajinomoto-Bouillon- Natural Flavouring-GlutamicAcid-Yeast Extract, and the list goes on.

[SkeptiChick]

MSG is a neuro-toxin Evidence please. And make it something from a reputable source for once.

[Soapy Sam]

Can't help thinking if MSG did much harm, we would all know by now.

[Old Bob]

Evidence please. And make it something from a reputable source for once.

O dear,you want me to google up "Side affects of MSG" and what would be a reputable source in your mind? You know it's not good for humans,so why the attitude? No point in me saying who told me. Most things that I have said in the past have truth in them.

[Shrinker]

Evidence please. And make it something from a reputable source for once.

What? Snopes is reputable isn't it? ;)

[Darat]

Can't help thinking if MSG did much harm, we would all know by now.

Yep - we've been using such "additives" as soy sauce and Worcestershire sauce for a long time.

[ponderingturtle]

Yep - we've been using such "additives" as soy sauce and Worcestershire sauce for a long time.

This thread made me realize, there is money to be made selling All Natural Soy Extracted Flavor Enhancer to people.

[madurobob]

This thread made me realize, there is money to be made selling All Natural Soy Extracted Flavor Enhancer to people.

Sure is. I have "raw food" friends who swear MSG is evil, yet go through quarts of this stuff (http://bragg.com/products/la.html) every month.

I've tried to point out the hypocrisy, but am always met with "but its all natural!"

[Beerina]

I do know that people who need to restrict sodium in their diets should be careful about MSG. I've also heard that MSG can trigger migraines in some people. Other than that, AFAIK, no proven danger.

My grandmother claimed that as she got migraines, but I can't confirm it was from personal experience or not.

If you have migraines and hear "chocolate, yeasty things like beer, wine, and cheese, and MSG can trigger it", your reaction will be to stay the hell away from it until proven otherwise.

I can get bad, day-long headaches the next day from too much cheese, or too much red wine or dark beers, so I stay the hell away from them myself. Not sure if this is low-end migraine, but I did have one once that resulted from 2 dark beers and nothing to eat or drink for 6 hours on a road trip. Driving the last leg home, I almost drove off the road the pain was so excruciating. It took 6 extra strength Excedrin to make the pain go away and even then I could feel the arteries throbbing deep in my skull. I was seriously scared one was gonna pop. I had achieved that Nirvana state in the male where they go from being a whiner to someone who refuses to go see a doctor.

[Skeptiquette]

Since nobody has decided to assess the scientific literature yet, I decided to take a quick looksy.

I read a few abstracts and decided to read this study:

The monosodium glutamate symptom complex: assessment in a double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized study.

J Allergy Clin Immunol. 1997 Jun;99(6 Pt 1):757-62.

Abstact:

BACKGROUND: Considerable debate swirls about the validity of symptoms described by many people after ingestion of monosodium glutamate (MSG), and the question has remained unresolved largely because of a paucity of well-designed challenge studies. METHODS: We conducted oral challenge studies in self-identified MSG-sensitive subjects to determine whether they had a statistically significant difference in the incidence of their specific symptoms after ingestion of MSG compared with placebo. First, 5 gm MSG or placebo was administered in random sequence in a double-blind fashion. Subjects who reacted only to a single test agent then underwent rechallenge in random sequence in a double-blind fashion with placebo and 1.25, 2.5, and 5 gm MSG. A positive response to challenge was defined as the reproduction of > of 2 of the specific symptoms in a subject ascertained on prechallenge interview. RESULTS: Sixty-one subjects entered the study. On initial challenge, 18 (29.5%) responded to neither MSG nor placebo, 6 (9.8%) to both, 15 (24.6%) to placebo, and 22 (36.1%) to MSG (p = 0.324). Total and average severity of symptoms after ingestion of MSG (374 and 80) were greater than respective values after placebo ingestion (232 and 56; p = 0.026 and 0.018, respectively). Rechallenge revealed an apparent threshold dose for reactivity of 2.5 gm MSG. Headache (p < 0.023), muscle tightness (p < 0.004), numbness/tingling (p < 0.007), general weakness (p < 0.040), and flushing (p < 0.016) occurred more frequently after MSG than placebo ingestion. CONCLUSIONS: Oral challenge with MSG reproduced symptoms in alleged sensitive persons. The mechanism of the reaction remains unknown, but symptom characteristics do not support an IgE-mediated mechanism. According to Food and Drug Administration recommendations, the symptoms, originally called the Chinese restaurant syndrome, are better referred to as the MSG symptom complex.

Here are some excerpts from the study:

Published reports have not been able to provide
a reliable estimate of the prevalence of MSG
sensitivity, but indications are that this is <1% of the
general population.

Nevertheless, MSG has been
blamed for many ills. The debate continues in large
measure because of a paucity of scientifically sound
challenge studies. The present study was done in a
double-blind fashion and used strong citrus flavoring
and sucrose sweetening to disguise the sensory characteristics
of MSG.

On rechallenge, a placebo
response rate was still apparent; however, the trend to
increasing symptoms with increasing MSG dose was
clear with a discernable threshold dose of 2.5 gm for the
induction of symptoms.

The results of our study suggest that sensitivity to
MSG exists, at least in the clinical setting described
herein, and is characterized by unpleasant reactions such
as numbness, tingling, headache, muscle tightness, general
weakness, and flushing. During and immediately
after MSG oral challenge, no patient had the development
of rhinoconjunctivitis, asthma, urticaria, angioedema,
or anaphylactoid reaction, which suggests that
conventional allergic mechanisms involving IgE and
mast cells probably do not play a role in the MSG
symptom complex.

Here is another study for those interested:

Multicenter, double-blind, placebo-controlled, multiple-challenge evaluation of reported reactions to monosodium glutamate.
J Allergy Clin Immunol. 2000 Nov;106(5):973-80.

And here is another one that had some info relating to neuro toxicity and toxicity in general:

The Safety Evaluation of Monosodium Glutamate1
J. Nutr. 130: 1049S–1052S, 2000

some salient points:

Glutamate has a very low acute toxicity under normal
circumstances; the oral dose that is lethal to 50% of subjects
(LD50) in rats and mice is ;15,000 –18,000 mg/kg body
weight, respectively.

Nevertheless, two other major issues had to be addressed in relation to high intakes of MSG, namely, 1) potential neurotoxicity, especially to the
infant, and 2) the putative role of MSG in “Chinese Restaurant
Syndrome” (e.g., flushing, tightness of the chest or difficulty
in breathing )
A putative mechanism for the neuronal damage is that high levels of
glutamate at the target site lead to continuous excitation of
the glutaminergic neurons, depleting ATP and leading to cell
death. Such a situation is difficult to achieve with oral administration
in food.

In relation to the neurotoxicity, the Committee considered
reports of 59 studies conducted in mice (40), rats (12), hamsters,
guinea pigs, chicks, ducks, rabbits, dogs and primates
(21). Lesions (focal necrosis) in the arcuate nucleus of the
hypothalamus were observed reproducibly in rodents and
rabbits after parenteral administration of glutamate (intravenously
or subcutaneously) or after very high bolus doses by
gavage. These neural lesions were observable within hours of
administration. The mouse appeared to be the most sensitive
species, and there were significant differences with age and
maturity; the neonate was particularly sensitive. Notably, most
of the studies in primates were negative with regard to hypothalamic
lesions; these were reported in only 2 of 21 studies,
both conducted in the same laboratory (Olney and Sharpe
1969, Olney et al. 1972)

Sorry for all the quote dumping, but I figure most people don't have access to journal articles. Therefore, I read them and picked out some salient points. From this cursory examination (about an hour of reading) I would conclude that some individuals are sensitive and to varying degrees, and MSG sensitivity is probably due to a neuro or cell signalling effect, rather than Allergy. But again I haven't explored this in any depth.

Hope this helps the discussion

skeptiquette:)

[luchog]

Yeah, these are all well-documented migraine triggers; although they're listed wrongly. Alcohol is well known as a trigger, as are stimulantes such as caffiene and theobromine (chocolate). Sharp cheeses also contain a substances that can trigger migraines. An interesting side notes is that pretty much all of the most common migraine triggers also cause adverse reactions if you're taking certain classes of drugs, such as MAOI antidepressants.
[quote]
Driving the last leg home, I almost drove off the road the pain was so excruciating. It took 6 extra strength Excedrin to make the pain go away and even then I could feel the arteries throbbing deep in my skull. I was seriously scared one was gonna pop. I had achieved that Nirvana state in the male where they go from being a whiner to someone who refuses to go see a doctor.
Sounds pretty migraine-like to me. Especially if it was combined with other typical migraine symptoms like nausea, photophobia, hyperacusis, fatigue, and depression.

[Mashuna]

Most things that I have said in the past have truth in them.

Are your posts on this board just an exception then?

[ElMondoHummus]

Since nobody has decided to assess the scientific literature yet, I decided to take a quick looksy.
(much snipped for ease of reading...)
skeptiquette:)

Skeptiquette, there are also some articles cited on an "MSG is a neurotoxin" webpage that you might be intereseted in, and that I want to read myself at some point (I work at a university, so I should be able to dig some of them up myself).

For the record: I'm skeptical about these claims; looking quickly over the internet for info about MSG, I'm struck by how many sites are not only profoundly anti-MSG, but make unsupported claims and freely wholesale anecdoctes in place of genuine, rigorous studies. I don't get any sense of rationality, but rather a huge sense of agitation instead. They come off as bandwagoning rather than multiple, independent sources. So in sum, I'm profoundly skeptical about claims made regarding negative effects of MSG, more so now that I've seen the echo chamber on the 'net. But regardless, I don't cite the following links out of a sense of advocacy; rather, I list them so we can see what evidence is presented by supporters of the allegation. I need to read them myself to see what they say, and if the claims are indeed credible or not. Even if they are, I still question the conclusions in the face of much evidence to the contrary. But that's my own way of dealing with information, not your burden. At any rate, here are the pages of citations:

http://www.truthinlabeling.org/Brain.html
http://www.truthinlabeling.org/spencer-references.html

Note the site is an advocacy one: Truth In Labeling. It is clearly a site biased towards the negative point of view regarding MSG. Regardless, if this one site chooses to actually refer to real evidence and state that it supports them, I'm willing to at least look over the evidence and see if it really does or not. And I figured you might too, since you have access to journals yourself.

Just thought I'd share. :) In return, would you also happen to have any more links, besides the ones you've already provided, that are real, genuine studies on MSG's effects? I'm particularly interested in the supposed "MSG=neurotoxin" claims, and what those are based on (if anything).

And for anyone who wants to try to make hay over my skepticism of these claims of danger: MSG has been studied since 1958. In the '80s, the WHO placed MSG into the "safest' category of food additives citing multiple studies reviewed by the Joint Expert Committe on Food Additives. The EU's Scientific Committee for Food also signed off on the safety of MSG in the 90's. And the FDA in '95, citing The Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology's study also concluded that MSG is safe. So do not take my openness to new information as some sort of concession to MSG's supposed "dangers". It is not. Rather, I'm merely interested in all the information that's out there for the sake of continuous, ongoing evaluation of my stance. If you want to convince me that MSG is really too dangerous to consume, you've got a steep mountain to climb, because the first thing I'll ask you to do is rationalize that claim in the face of the FASEB's review, the JECFA's report, and others. And the next thing I'll do is ask you to explain how it affects humans. Alcohol is dangerous too, but people have a rational sense of how much is dangerous or not; I don't see any equivalent sense for MSG.

End of rant. Skeptiquette, if you've got other links or citations, I'd welcome them. In return, the links-citing site I provided above might be of interest, keeping in mind the citing page's obvious bias.

[ElMondoHummus]

Okay, this I didn't know:


in 2002, for example, New Scientist got very excited over a report that MSG might damage your eyesight, after Japanese scientists announced that they had produced retinal thinning in baby rats fed with MSG. It turned out they were putting 20 grams of MSG in every 100g of rat food - an amazing amount, given that, in the UK, we adults consume about four grams of it each a week.


Source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/jul/10/foodanddrink.features3).

There's a difference in saying that a substance is dangerous when introduced in overwhelmingly large amounts, and saying it's dangerous period. Salt and alcohol are two other substances that have severely deleterious effects when consumed in egregious excess, but as I said above, people have a rational sense of what amount of either of those two is bad and what isn't. But MSG is being decried in any amount. There's more hype than reason here, I think.

[Prometheus]

I keep a shaker of MSG in my spice cabinet at all times, and have been adding it to my food for years. No noticeable ill effects yet.

[CurtC]

I keep a shaker of MSG in my spice cabinet at all times, and have been adding it to my food for years. No noticeable ill effects yet.

Is your avatar picture accurate?

[madurobob]

I keep a shaker of MSG in my spice cabinet at all times, and have been adding it to my food for years. No noticeable ill effects yet.
:) "I've been smoking for 25 years - ain't dead yet!"

[Prometheus]

Is your avatar picture accurate?

Yeah, but that was caused by drinking fluoridated water... ;)

[Old Bob]

Are your posts on this board just an exception then?

If you want to pile more weight on, eat more MSG. The CSIRO fatten rats for experiment purpose with MSG, it is the only way rats will become overweight. Now you have a easy of checking this,eat lots of MSG.

[casebro]

Umami was mentioned above. It's a liquid of amino acids. Proteins get broken down into amino acids by various processes. Many conventional recipes do it- soup stock is one way. Also, soy sauce has lots of wheat, which has glutamate in the gluten. Add salt and ferment, voila, Monodosium Glutamate. Add salt to wheat flour, and you get instant savoriness- thicken gravy, salt in a bread recipe, pretzels...All those broken down proteins make food savory. Salt does do more than add saltiness, it breaks down the proteins and combines with the aminos. No need to add MSG, it's already in there. As naturally as fermented beer!

Ever notice an ingredient in processed food "hydrolized food starch" or "Modified food starch"? Well, modifying the starch (they usually use wheat flour) also modifies the proteins, into, you guessed it, all those same umamis, and good ol' MSG!

My favorite way to add this savoriness is to use Vietnamese fish sauce- noc mum. Use the kind that looks like soy sauce, the stuff like a chocolate shake is waaaaay too strong. Add a few shakes to any soup, gravy, sauce, hummm! Seems the fish protein has been broken down into it's aminos. Check the ingredients on a bottle of Worcester sauce? Note the Anchovies? Same thing.

Adding it to the rat's chow makes it taste better, the rats will eat more. No big metabolic thing, doesn't make them fatten by any hormonal trick. Just eating more of what tastes better.

P.S.- do NOT smell the bottle of fish sauce! It smells worse than the dumpster down at the pier! And whatever you do, don't drop a bottle of it! You'll have to burn the house down to deodorize it. Whew! Stinks! But a couple shakes in the gravy, and HUMMM !!!

[Prometheus]

<snip>
P.S.- do NOT smell the bottle of fish sauce!
<snip>

DO put some on the tip of your cat's tail--hours of entertainment for the whole family... :D

[Foolmewunz]

I remember reading an article many years about "Chinese restuarant stiff neck syndrome". Apparently the MSG caused the stiff neck problem.

No, that was from looking up at those gawdy red and gilt calendars.

They deliver MSG to restaurants here, even small restaurants, in sacks of 25 kg. Some restaurants take four and six sack deliveries, once a week.*

It's prety well accepted here (where I think they've been known to use MSG occasionally) that there are just some people who have a reaction to MSG. It's not a western woo thing, either. I know Chinese who are decidedly mono-cultural, who will ask for no MSG - it's a common and not too amazing request in restaurants.

ETA:
* Evidence? The bruises on my shins. I seem to get run into by the guy delivering the stuff on hand carts about once a month.

[ectoplasm]

If you want to pile more weight on, eat more MSG. The CSIRO fatten rats for experiment purpose with MSG, it is the only way rats will become overweight. Now you have a easy of checking this,eat lots of MSG.

Uh huh..I don't suppose you have a reference for this do you?

[Beerina]

I can't find MSG at the spice rack at the store, is it somewhere else, or do I have to go to a Chinese food store?

[Foolmewunz]

I can't find MSG at the spice rack at the store, is it somewhere else, or do I have to go to a Chinese food store?

No, you can find it in any store here. :spjimlad::spjimlad:


Seriously, though.... I haven't been in a supermarket in the USA in over seven years, and can't even recall back then... But there used to be little bottles of it in the spice sections; how many years ago, I can't recall. I googled McCormick and MSG and got only a product with "no MSG". I then tried, "McCormick & Monosodium.." and got a whole bunch of their seasonings (like steak spice and such) which contain MSG, but no jars of MSG.

I guess it just didn't sell enough.

[Prometheus]

I can't find MSG at the spice rack at the store, is it somewhere else, or do I have to go to a Chinese food store?

The supermarkets near me carry a brand called Accent in the spice section. It's 100% MSG, they just don't call it that in large print. Also it's overpriced. The Asian food markets sell generic MSG in big bags for a fraction of the cost.

[ponderingturtle]

I can't find MSG at the spice rack at the store, is it somewhere else, or do I have to go to a Chinese food store?

You can find it, it is just not sold as MSG. BUt brand names like Accent.

[Foolmewunz]

I can't find MSG at the spice rack at the store, is it somewhere else, or do I have to go to a Chinese food store?

I wonder how come no one's pointed out that you can get it under the name Accent?

[quarky]

don't snort it.

[Pragmatist]

I can't find MSG at the spice rack at the store, is it somewhere else, or do I have to go to a Chinese food store?

The Chinese call it "Ve-tsin", it's sometimes sold under that name. Don't ask me how to spell that in Chinese characters though! :D

[Skeptiquette]

Just thought I'd share. In return, would you also happen to have any more links, besides the ones you've already provided, that are real, genuine studies on MSG's effects? I'm particularly interested in the supposed "MSG=neurotoxin" claims, and what those are based on (if anything).

Sorry it took so long to get back respond, I printed out some articles about a week ago and just got around to reading them:

MSG can definitely be a neurotoxin. When supraphysiological doses are consumed orally or administered parenterally it can act as an excitotoxin mainly affecting the arcuate nucleus region of the brain. Glutamate is the most prevalent excitatory neurotransmitter in the brain and its extracellular concentrations are tightly regulated, because any excess can cause neurotoxicity via over excitation of the neurons. This has been a way for researchers to study obesity, by injecting newborn mice with a toxic dose of MSG, which effectively destroys the AN.

Monosodium glutamate (MSG) obesity with an early onset can be induced to newborn mice with subcutaneous administration of MSG (Olney 1969), which causes lesions in hypothalamic arcuate nucleus (ARC) and impaires leptin and insulin signaling in this region (Broberger et al. 1998, Dawson et al. 1997; Maletínská et al. 2006) resulting in hyperleptinemia and hyperinsulinemia. Although the MSG animals are rather hypophagic (Morris et al. 1998), they have a dramatic increase in body fat, which could be explained rather by a lower metabolic rate than by an elevated food intake (Djazayery et al. 1979). A marked shrinkage of the ARC in the MSG-treated mice impairs production of growth hormone releasing hormone (GHRH) which results in shorter body length, atrophied pituitaries, gonads, and optical nerves (Tamura et al. 2002).

Casebro asserted:

Adding it to the rat's chow makes it taste better, the rats will eat more. No big metabolic thing, doesn't make them fatten by any hormonal trick. Just eating more of what tastes better.

This is clearly wrong. The process by which mice become obese after high oral dose of MSG or injection of MSG is definitely due to neurotoxicity and subsequent hormonal dysregulation. There are plenty of studies to prove this. In fact I haven’t read one that asserts that the reason for obesity is due to MSG induced hyperphagia due to better taste. If someone does, however, have a citation which shows that researchers sprinkle MSG on rat food to make it taste better and thus increase appetite and induce obesity, I would be happy to read it. All references to MSG induced obesity would squarely rest on its ability to cause major neuronal damage in the arcuate nucleus.

The arcuate nucleus is the major site of GLU-induced neuronal damage in the hypothalamus. It is situated close to the bottom of the third ventricle, and is a potent site of leptin action. Leptin is produced in the adipose tissue, crosses the blood-brain barrier by active transport systems, and stimulates a specific signalling cascade (Jequier, 2002): it downregulates the orexigenic neuropeptides NPY, agouti gene-related protein, melanin-concentrating hormone, and orexins, and upregulates POMC and cocaine- and amphetamine- regulated transcript (CART) mRNA (Elmquist, 2001).
POMC and its post-translational product, alpha-MSH, stimulate melanocortin receptors (MC3R, MC4R), and thereby downregulate appetite. Arcuate nucleus damage disrupts the signalling cascade of leptin action, thereby impairs the regulation of appetite, and causes voracity (Fan et al., 1997; Lu, 2001).

Now the question is does a diet high in MSG or other forms of Glutamate have a detrimental impact on human biochemistry?

That is a difficult question to answer. Everybody has a different capacity to deal with his/her environment. Clearly, Luchog cannot tolerate MSG, whereas Prometheus sprinkles it on food regularly (if this is accurate) with no adverse effects

Take a look at this study:

Monosodium glutamate (MSG): A villain and promoter of liver inflammation and dysplasia

Journal of Autoimmunity 30 (2008) 42e50

Abstract:

Chronic inflammation is a common theme in a variety of disease pathways, including autoimmune diseases. The pathways of chronic inflammation are well illustrated by nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH), which is of a serious concern due to its increasing prevalence in the westernized world and its direct correlation with lifestyle factors, particularly diet. Importantly, NASH may ultimately lead to the development of hepatocellular carcinoma. We previously reported that injection of monosodium glutamate (MSG) in ICR mice leads to the development of significant inflammation, central obesity, and type 2 diabetes. To directly address the long-term consequences of MSG on inflammation, we have performed serial analysis of MSG-injected mice and focused in particular on liver pathology. By 6 and 12 months of age, all MSG-treated mice developed NAFLD and NASH-like histology, respectively. In particular, the murine steatohepatitis at 12 months was virtually undistinguishable from human NASH. Further, dysplastic nodular lesions were detected in some cases within the fibrotic liver parenchyma. We submit that MSG treatment of mice induces obesity and diabetes with steatosis and steatohepatitis resembling human NAFLD and NASH with pre-neoplastic lesions. These results take on considerable significance in light of the widespread usage of dietary MSG and we suggest that MSG should have its safety profile re-examined and be potentially withdrawn from the food chain.

Is their a difference between MSG and soy sauce?

No not really, glutamate is glutamate as far as I can tell. Although MSG is a concentrated form of glutamate, soy sauce is a mixture of glutamate and other amino acids.

I would be interested to see if Luchog has a similar experience when he/she consumes soy sauce or a high protein meal (generally high in glutamate) as the experience when he/ she consumes MSG. Luchog? Or if he/she can tolerate soy sauce/ tamari or high protein meals?

From what I could tell by reviewing the literature (definitely not even a fraction of the literature, there is a lot!) is that it is still a controversial topic. Here are a few closing quotes from the papers that I read.

Further studies are clearly indicated but the data herein provide a serious argument to withdraw MSG from the diet pending additional analyses of its inflammatory potential.

Much work is still to be performed, but good reasons have already been accumulated to reconsider the recommended daily allowances of amino acids and nutritional protein, and to abstain from the popular protein-rich diets, and particularly from adding the flavouring agents MSG.

We suggest abandoning the flavoring agent MSG and reconsidering the recommended daily allowances of protein and amino acids, particularly during pregnancy.

Prolonged glutamate excitotoxicity: Effects on mitochondrial antioxidants and antioxidant Enzymes
Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry 243: 139–145, 2003

Does high glutamate intake cause obesity?
Journal of pediatric endocrinology & metabolism 16; 965-8 (2003)

Comparison of the Obesity Phenotypes Related to Monosodium
Glutamate Effect on Arcuate Nucleus and/or the High Fat Diet
Feeding in C57BL/6 and NMRI Mice
Physiol. Res. 57: 727-734, 2008

Monosodium glutamate (MSG): A villain and promoter
of liver inflammation and dysplasia
Journal of Autoimmunity 30 (2008) 42e50

Decreased lipolysis and enhanced glycerol and
glucose utilization by adipose tissue prior to
development of obesity in monosodium glutamate
(MSG) treated-rats
International Journal of Obesity (2001) 25, 426±433

Obesity, voracity, and short stature: the impact of
glutamate on the regulation of appetite
European Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2006) 60, 25–31

Does the thrifty phenotype result from chronic glutamate intoxication? A hypothesis
J Perinat Med. 2003;31(6):489-95

Relief of fibromyalgia symptoms following discontinuation of dietary excitotoxins
Ann Pharmacother. 2001 Jun;35(6):702-6

Monosodium glutamate-induced oxidative damage and genotoxicity in the rat: modulatory role of vitamin C, vitamin E and quercetin.
Hum Exp Toxicol. 2006 May;25(5):251-9

sorry this is so long

skeptiquette:)

[casebro]

S-quette, all of your cites are dealing with injected MSG. I don't think anybody mainlines Accent. Not even Prometheus. And Quarky even recommends not to snort it. (How does he know? ;) )

I didn't wade through your links, but I assume your cites are your best evidence. Are any of the links double blinded human studies? At anywhere near the normal consumption of even a Chinese take-out addict?

I notice on rat study up-thread said the LD-50 is 1.5g/kg, or about
four one oz. bottles of Accent, in one meal. Prometheus, you are walking a thin line. ;)

[Prometheus]

S-quette, all of your cites are dealing with injected MSG. I don't think anybody mainlines Accent. Not even Prometheus. And Quarky even recommends not to snort it. (How does he know? ;) )

I didn't wade through your links, but I assume your cites are your best evidence. Are any of the links double blinded human studies? At anywhere near the normal consumption of even a Chinese take-out addict?

I notice on rat study up-thread said the LD-50 is 1.5g/kg, or about
four one oz. bottles of Accent, in one meal. Prometheus, you are walking a thin line. ;)

I'll try to keep it under 3 bottles/meal from now on... ;)

[ysabella]

Sharp cheeses also contain a substances that can trigger migraines..

Do you know what those are? I've had people tell me that annatto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annatto) is horrible and dangerous. That is often in cheddar, apparently. On the other hand, aged cheeses have lots of free glutamates. Parmesan is incredibly high in it.

I had someone telling me once that my whey protein shakes acted like heroin, putting the processed whey proteins right into my brain. I can't see why anyone pays the high prices for street heroin when they can just buy a canister of shake mix.