Acupuncture

[Corey]

Last week my mother started treatment with an acupunturist. This was at the advice of my father, who believes in all sorts of woo woo to the point of making me want to throttle him at times. She has an inner ear condition which causes her to have hearing loss, vertigo and become generally dizzy and disorientated. It's been progressing for over a decade and she's not in what's considered the advanced stage and has tried medication and various minor and somewhat major surgeries to help her, with no more than a temporary effect.

When my mother told me about it, I asked her if she knew what the principles behind acupuncture were, she didn't, and I explained them and discussed the evidence (lack or and against) and offered to her that she might find a better way to spend her money that would have about as much effect (getting a massage, etc, something not specifically helpfully but generally relaxing) or simply save her money. The person charges $1 per minute typically does 90 minute sessions.

I had another talk with her about it today, while driving her around to do some errands. She was making another appointment with this person over the phone because she was dizzy again. After she hung up I asked her if the acupuncture did any good the first time. She said she wasn't dizzy for most of the rest of the day (she went in the late morning) but that by the end of the day she was dizzy again and had been since. So I asked her why she was going to go back if all it could do, if it was doing anything, was relieve her for a few hours. I also mentioned that she might consider what time of day she went, how long she was laying down, etc and if those are things that are factors into how badly her vertigo is on any given day. She essentially admitted that it really didn't do anything, but that she wanted to try it a few more times to find out for sure.

I don't want to argue with her about it, because I'm bringing it up out of concern and love for her but, in her words, she'll try anything even if she doesn't think it's real. I just don't know how to deal with an attitude like that. I told her maybe she should instead go back to her doctor and discuss some more alternatives to the current treatments she's getting (different medications, etc) and stick with things she knew COULD work, even if they hadn't yet.

Just venting, I just find it extremely frustrating trying to talk to someone who KNOWS something doesn't work, but wants to try it anyway..."just in case".

[Goshawk]

FWIW.

Evaluation and management of dizziness and vertigo can be one of the most difficult medical tasks... (http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic232.htm)

The only other thing I can add is to be thankful that if she's going to experiment with alternative therapies, at least be grateful she's doing something relatively harmless (in the sense of "first, do no harm") like acupuncture rather than mysterious Oriental herbal remedies.

[T'ai Chi]

Well, I hope they'd consult their regular doctors first.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Goshawk
The only other thing I can add is to be thankful that if she's going to experiment with alternative therapies, at least be grateful she's doing something relatively harmless. Well, be very careful here. It's not as harmless as all that. I heard Bandolier speak at a biochemists' meeting, and he was very critical because although the incidence of complications isn't very high, there have been some very nasty incidents. And as there is no evidence of any benefit at all, that doesn't make for a good risk/benefit ratio.

Look at the Bandolier page (http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band68/b68-4.html).
(Also search that site on "acupuncture" and see what you get.)

I hope you can persuade your Mum to save her money, it's a lot to spend for nothing - or worse.

Rolfe.

[Yahweh]

Well, at least you managed to talk a little sense into your mother. Make sure she knows all about the difference between "feeling better" and "being better" (and proper investment of money).

[Corey]

I tend to think it's not harmless if it takes her money, makes her think she's going to get better (I'm not convinced it has, she' just giving it a shot because her options are fairly limited at this point) and stalls the amount of time she pursues actual medical treatment. I also discussed with her trying some different medication and talking to her specialist about what other options she has. I haven't heard of the negative reactions to acupuncture, but I'm sure that doesn't mean they don't exist. Thanks for the links, I'll look into them and keep gathering info as I can find it.

I think I at least made somewhat of a dent. Hopefully some of the things we talked about will stay in her mind and she'll give the whole matter some further though. I just really feel there needs to be some sort of alternate voice to that of my dads, who as much as I love and care for isn't the most rational of people. I'm hoping my younger brother, who still lives with them, will say a few things to her. Thankfully he's more skeptical and level headed than my dad, but he's usually more prone to just shrug, roll his eyes and say nothing. We'll see. I'm going to continue to talk to her about it in the nicest way possible. Even though it's something that really sort of gets my ire up, I love my mother and I don't want to upset her over it. I just want to help her or at least prevent her from wasting her time and money or hurting herself, since her morale has been lower and lower over the past few years as she's become almost non functional from the vertigo.

[athon]

One of my colleagues at school (science too...biology to make it worse!) swears wholeheartedly by it. She has a bad back, and went to a physio' for a while but claimed they did nothing to make it better. The acupuncture apparently makes her back feel much better.

I asked what they did. The therapist apparently massages the back for about twenty minutes, and then applies the needles.

I asked if the massage could be responsible, to which the teacher replied 'possibly, but I got a massage at the physio' and it didn't work'.

Again, I was given anecdotal evidence by a science teacher and asked what would it take to make me believe. And this staffroom aren't exactly woo-woo crazies...they are intelligent, and usually critical people.

Education should start at the schools, IMHO, but the scary thing is 'Who is educating the educators?'

Athon

[Dids]

Originally posted by athon
I asked what they did. The therapist apparently massages the back for about twenty minutes, and then applies the needles.

I asked if the massage could be responsible, to which the teacher replied 'possibly, but I got a massage at the physio' and it didn't work'.
That reminds me of a program I saw last year - the rent-a-celeb was on tour in Beijing and went to meet this doc with the magic finger, built up as one poke in the chest and you'll be miraculously cured. So we dutifully saw the doc, and the first patient was some old lady with dodgy legs who he looked at for a couple of minutes, then poked once just below the rib cage.

He then did a 30 minute massage on her legs, and lo and behold, thanks to the poke, she could walk freely again! The celeb also got the magic poke (and 30 minute massage) and once again it fixed her stiff back!

Of course everyone back in the studio was suitably impressed by the all-powerful finger.

[Vitnir]

I think you are on the right track Corey. All you can do in a situation like this is be very calm and talk. Getting excited and offensive only leads to hurt feelings (first hand experience). Digging up facts is one way of confronting her but don't expect the facts to always win. About acupuncture: I thought it was effective against pain and nothing else or is that a misconception?

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Vitnir
I thought it was effective against pain and nothing else or is that a misconception? I'm afraid it's not effective against anything. There is a powerful "suggestion" effect, and it was difficult to do controlled trials because of arranging sham acupuncture, but that problem was solved, and lo and behold, nothing.

It's a particularly marked triumph of hype and simple bland lying over facts.

Rolfe.

[Producer]

Originally posted by Rolfe
I'm afraid it's not effective against anything. There is a powerful "suggestion" effect, and it was difficult to do controlled trials because of arranging sham acupuncture, but that problem was solved, and lo and behold, nothing.

It's a particularly marked triumph of hype and simple bland lying over facts.

Rolfe.

I purchased the needles over the net a while back and I actually use them. With the help of my wife, It helps me relax. (Wow, I just set myself up)

However, I don't believe in Chi and the silly fact that sticking a needle in your ear with help cure a cold, or make your ankle work better. Also I am not paying $90 for something anyone can do on their own.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Producer
I purchased the needles over the net a while back and I actually use them. With the help of my wife, It helps me relax. (Wow, I just set myself up)There is a powerful "suggestion" effect, ....Rolfe.

[Jeff Corey]

You could test the claims of "chi" and "meridians" by sticking the needles in different areas as a placebo, if you get my point.
If they don't sterilize the needles, there is grave risk of infection, like the cases of leeches bleeding their victims with infected instruments. Back in those days, homeopathic remedies would have been preferable.

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
If they don't sterilize the needles, there is grave risk of infection, like the cases of leeches bleeding their victims with infected instruments.

This is why acupunture needles are considered medical devices. Not because they fix anything but because they are exposed to body fluids and therefore must be disposed of properly to prevent accidental infection.

[Suezoled]

Originally posted by Producer


I purchased the needles over the net a while back and I actually use them. With the help of my wife, It helps me relax. (Wow, I just set myself up)

However, I don't believe in Chi and the silly fact that sticking a needle in your ear with help cure a cold, or make your ankle work better. Also I am not paying $90 for something anyone can do on their own.

You're trusting your wife with sharp objects to be jabbed into your body? wow...dude... you're brave.. or trusting...

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Suezoled


You're trusting your wife with sharp objects to be jabbed into your body? wow...dude... you're brave.. or trusting...
My wife is Irish/Sicilian. The kitchen provides enough weaponry for her to slice and dice anybody.

[Corey]

Thanks for the link again Rolfe, a very informative site. I looked over some info on the effectiveness of acupuncture on her condition as well as it's effectiveness in general. I'm going to print some pages out and pass them along to my mother. Not going to run up to her and shove them in her face and yell "ha!" or anything, but she's intelligent enough that she seeks out literature about her condition, so hopefully she'll be receptive to reading it from an outside source and not just being my opinion.

I was discussing all this with my wife last night and she seemed to agree that mentioning it in a low key way would be best, but not too be too upset if she doesn't listen. She's also concerned about what my dad might be telling her in regards to treating her condition, and I talked to my younger brother about it and passed some of those links on to him. My parents get along with my wife really well, but she's wanted to strangle my father on a few occasions for some of the completely woo woo stuff he says, like how because he's a recovering alcoholic and it's genetic because so many men in his family have been so I must be an alcoholic. Even though I drink about 1 or 2 beers every couple of weeks or so and don't really have any great interest in alcohol in general outside of social functions. Also, apparently my younger brother is also an alcoholic, even though he doesn't drink at all and never really has and has zero interest in it, he's "just the kind of alcoholic who doesn't drink".

I digress, majorly. We're going over to have dinner with my parents tomorrow night, hopefully I can pass some of that literature on to my mother and just leave it at that and hope she reads it and think about it.

[Thanz]

Acupuncture? Well, your dad does seem to have some "alternative" ideas. But, being so close to your mom, he really shouldn't be diagnosing things or directing therapies.

Objectively assessing your Mom's symptoms, I think that it should be perfectly clear to all that she is suffering from one or more sublaxations in her spine. She should be taken to a professionally qualified chiropractor, not some needlepoint expert. Check your yellow pages for a chiroprator near you.

I hope this helps!

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Thanz
Objectively assessing your Mom's symptoms, I think that it should be perfectly clear to all that she is suffering from one or more sublaxations in her spine. She should be taken to a professionally qualified chiropractor, not some needlepoint expert. Check your yellow pages for a chiroprator near you.
I hope this helps!
Shirley, you jest!

[Suezoled]

Why not just have a 5 year old jump up and down on Grandma's back? That'll straighten her out. Or not. :p

[Corey]

Chiropractic? Have you been talking to my dad? He's been swearing by it for over a decade, though his back is so bad he's down to having "trigger point injections" of painkillers into his back and taking powerfull (prescription) narcotics to ease the pain when it gets bad. So clearly it's worked wonders.

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey

Shirley, you jest!
I do jest, but don't call me shirley. :p

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Corey
Chiropractic? Have you been talking to my dad? He's been swearing by it for over a decade, though his back is so bad he's down to having "trigger point injections" of painkillers into his back and taking powerfull (prescription) narcotics to ease the pain when it gets bad. So clearly it's worked wonders.
Don't worry, I was just kidding.

It is my understanding that chiropractors can be effective at temporarily relieving some forms of back pain. It is when they start talking about sublaxations and the like that my eyes glaze over. My Dad went to one to help with his pinched psiatic nerve before going for surgery.

In your Dad's case, it seems that he is getting real medical care (I don't think chiroprators can dispens drugs), so I am left to wonder if there are regular therapies that your father is turning down (like surgery) in favour of the chiropractor. If there are no regular therapies, and the chiropractor works at all - even temporarily - it may be a good thing if it means that without it he would need even more narcotics. But of course, I know nothing about your Dad's case so I could be talking out my hat.

[Corey]

He's sees his regular physician about his back pain, but still goes to the chiropractor as well as a massage therapist (which I think does just about as much or more for him than the chiropractor honestly).

On a down note, I just talked to my father and asked him if I could briefly discuss the acupuncture topic with him. I showed some of the literature I found on clinical trials of it for treating vertigo and similar problems to my mother's. After I started to read the data to him, he began to just shrug and tell me he didn't want to talk about it and then telling me he had a big headache and finally how I was narrow minded and I wanted to hurt my mom by trying to get her not to do something that makes her feel better (it doesn't, she told me it doesn't, but she's still going in hopes that it might, after a while).

How completely frustrating. In typical fashion for my father, not that anyone on here would know, if you try to have a rational calm discussion with him about something he's fixated on his general reaction is to shut down, start yelling at you to shut up and then start insulting you and telling you that you don't know everything and that all data is subject and he could tell me twice as evidence for it by people who claim it works (when I tried to explain the difference between an anecdote and a clinical trial he walked out of the room).

Ahhhhh....I need to run a lap around the block or go scream into a pillow or something, very frustrating. Oh well...I'm starting to become resigned to the fact that I can't really have any discussions with my father beyond idle chit chat, as he always claims I'm "narrow minded" for analyzing everything logically. Though he will never listen to my opinions or reasoning on almost anything and will resort to the tactics of an infant's tantrum to avoid discussing (not arguing, though that is typically his recourse) any subject of depth.

[Producer]

Originally posted by Suezoled


You're trusting your wife with sharp objects to be jabbed into your body? wow...dude... you're brave.. or trusting...

Actually the Needles are individually wrapped, steril, and its in a small straw, so it only goes in so far.

[Vitnir]

Originally posted by Corey
After I started to read the data to him, he began to just shrug and tell me he didn't want to talk about it and then telling me he had a big headache and finally how I was narrow minded and I
...
How completely frustrating. In typical fashion for my father, not that anyone on here would know, if you try to have a rational calm discussion with him about something he's fixated on his general reaction is to shut down, start yelling at you to shut up and then start insulting you and telling you that you don't know everything and that all data is subject and he could tell me twice as evidence for it by people who claim it work ...

Being accused of being narrowminded as a sceptic is a bit ironic. Just because you are openminded and listens to both sides you are seen as narrowminded by those who have made up their mind.

If you haven't seen my thread where I promoted an interesting article (http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-11/beliefs.html) on belief systems its worth a read. It also gives you a few tips on how to deal with bad beliefs and why facts are seldom enough to change them.

My mother wasted a lot of money on New Age which made me getting interested in the sceptic community and today I can say with certainty that nothing anyone had said or done could have stopped her. So yes I know pretty much where you are now. I would advise against agitating him but bottling up completely won't do much good either. Calmly demonstrate what a sceptic is in casual conversation if the subject is brought up maybe and what the implications are of his beliefs if you can come up any impossible ones. The Apollo conspiracy is a good one, if you try to imagine the number of people that is part of the conspiracy, a million? you have an emotional argument against the conspiracy which I believe! is more devastating than the technical facts.

[Darat]

Slightly off topic but I believe relevant to mention. My experience has been that a more "emotional" or subjective argument can be the best way to get someone to at least listen to what you are saying. If someone wont listen it doesn’t matter what logic or evidence you talk about – they will just ignore it. (And by listening I’m not talking about hearing the words but actually thinking about what you have said and considering it.)

In the case of the "Luna hoax" I had a member of the family who had seen one of these programmes and thought "well they made some good points" and as much as I tried to explain why they weren't good points she wouldn't budge from her position of "something in it" until I tried a different approach.

In the end I suggested she think about the times it was meant to have happened in i.e. 60s (she's old enough to remember them) and I suggested she remember the paranoia, propaganda and hostility between the East and West and said if they had been anything in the “fake” stories didn’t she think the USSR would have done everything to publicise the fact he USA lied and made it all up?

OK - it's not a very rational argument but it got her to reconsider her position and I knew I'd got through to her when she said (paraphrased) "It is quite silly to think that the people so-called faking the pictures, going to all that trouble etc. wouldn't have thought about getting the shadows right....". And we have since discussed the various explanations for so-called discrepancies and at least now she listens to the pro and con.

So in summary it may be that you need to think of a more "emotional" hook to start your parents listening to what you are trying to say to them. Once they start to listen to you they may then change their minds (or not).

[FutileJester]

Vitnir and Darat,

Interesting point about needing an emotional hook. Pure logic is an unnatural way to think (albeit very effective); people believe their feelings.

Good thing to keep in mind, thanks!