Suicide Attempt Failed

[Skeptic]

Yesterday I gave a lecture in a course called "critical thinking". I asked the students what do they think critical thinking is good for.

Among other things I noted that, if nothing else, it gives you supernatural powers to resist poison: I opened and downed a whole bottle of homeopathic sleeping drops (showing them first it contains 50 times the recommended dosage) right in front of them.

They went completely white, two of them said they felt they were going to faint. I certainly had their attention for the rest of the lecture -- they were sure I'm going to drop dead any minute.

Still, one woman, obviously angry that I have insulted her cherished beliefs like that, told me that I don't understand: homeopathy isn't for treating conditions like that, it's for long term benefits. So I asked her two questions:

1). In that case, why do they sell it as a sleeping drop?
2). I just took 50 times the recommended amount. If I had done it with actual sleeping pills, I'd be dead. What does long-term mean here -- that I will eventually die?

[LTC8K6]

No, you needed to just barely touch the edge of one pill to your tongue for a moment to get a fatal homeopathic dose...

You'd have instantly collapsed on the spot had you done so...

[Wildy]

No, you needed to just barely touch the edge of one pill to your tongue for a moment to get a fatal homeopathic dose...

You'd have instantly collapsed on the spot had you done so...

Speaking from experience here?

[XLDS03]

There is one reason I will not trust homeopathic remedies:

One size cures all.

Albeit different ingredients here and there, it's the same process meant to cure everything.

If homeopathy is to be taken as energy medicine, not chemical (as a homeopath friend explained), I don't understand the need for substances in the first place.

I'm open to the idea of an energy-based medicinal practice given solid evidence of the highest rigor. Barring evidence, I don't understand where homeopathy differs from prayer.

Even if I received positive results from a homeopathic remedy, I will not regard it as proof. Not until a multitude of completely unrelated people receive similar positive results grounded by double-blind tests.

[detroitus]

It's stories like this that make me want to become a teacher/professor... Kudos.

[Skeptic]

It took some (not too much) guts to do this, though. The thought went through my mind that I might be wrong -- no, not that homeopathy will work, but that perhaps it's a "fake fake" -- "homeopathic" medicine that actually DOES have active ingredients, and is sold as "homeopathic" because you can charge more for it.

To make sure I chose the product of a very reputable and well-known homeopathic medicine company. Not for them is that wishy-washy "fake hoemopathy" stuff. When they say -- right on the label -- that their sleeping drops have nothing in them, you KNOW they have nothing in them.

The main ingredient, I believe, was caffeine "D4" (diluted to 100^4, or 1 part in 100,000,000) and extracts from some poisonous plants diluted to "D6" (100^6, or 1 part in 1,000,000,000,000). Not QUITE "not a single molecule left" concentration, but close enough for government work.

[Steve Knight]

Are you sure it was 4D and not 4C? 'D' is a decimal (1/10) dilution rather than 1/100.

[lionking]

Bravo. I hope your class learnt a lesson.

[Skeptic]

Okay, Okay -- so it had 1/10,000 part caffeine (FAR less than decaf coffee!) and 1/1,000,000 part of some poisonous plant... still good enough in practice as "nothing"...

Lionking: there is another risk here. that precisely BECAUSE you challange their beliefs, they'll drop the class, or even -- in theory -- threathen to complain or sue for "insulting" them. Students like to say they want to be "challanged", but in reality, like most of us, they don't. We all hate having out beliefs challanged.

If you make people think they are thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they hate you.

[EHocking]

Okay, Okay -- so it had 1/10,000 part caffeine (FAR less than decaf coffee!) How does caffeine in a sleeping draft equate to the homeopathetic dogma of "like cures like"? :eye-poppi

[Skeptic]

You can't sleep. Caffeine causes people not to sleep. Therefore, taking caffeine (according to homeopathic dogma) will cure insomania under the "like cures like" idea. That's why anti-rash "homeopathic" cream has poison ivy.

In 1:100,000,000 or so concentration.

[skeen]

Awesome, I'd love to perform this demonstration, just to see peoples faces!

[Chimera]

Awesome, I'd love to perform this demonstration, just to see peoples faces!

Me too. I'm doing it. Can't wait.

Bravo!

[Bikewer]

Didn't Randi and a group of other skeptics publicly "poison" themselves in this fashion not too long ago?

[Delvo]

To make it have the "impact" you're going for, you'd have to be sure your audience consisted of a bunch of homeopaths. How do you do that? I never hear of this stuff outside of this website. I've never met anybody who believes in it. I've never seen a product on a shelf.

[CurtC]

Still, one woman, obviously angry that I have insulted her cherished beliefs like that, told me that I don't understand: homeopathy isn't for treating conditions like that, it's for long term benefits.

I trust she got an "F" in this critical thinking course?

[Soapy Sam]

You can't sleep. Caffeine causes people not to sleep. Therefore, taking caffeine (according to homeopathic dogma) will cure insomania under the "like cures like" idea. That's why anti-rash "homeopathic" cream has poison ivy.

In 1:100,000,000 or so concentration.

Or, as noisy neighbours also keep you awake, you could ask the neighbours to host a small and very quiet party..

[alfaniner]

Just to be very clear, when performing this experiment be sure to read the label carefully to make sure that it contains no other active ingredients. Some concoctions are marketed as homeopathic but actually contain something that might have an effect.

I'm a little concerned about some high school kid performing this experiment and getting a large dose of something he didn't expect.

[Safe-Keeper]

I'd be very careful to slap a "Don't do this at home" label on this when you do it, myself.

[Piero]

If you make people think they are thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they hate you.
I just thought that deserved to be quoted.

[Safe-Keeper]

I just thought that deserved to be quoted. I agree.

[meow]

Yesterday I gave a lecture in a course called "critical thinking". I asked the students what do they think critical thinking is good for.

Among other things I noted that, if nothing else, it gives you supernatural powers to resist poison: I opened and downed a whole bottle of homeopathic sleeping drops (showing them first it contains 50 times the recommended dosage) right in front of them.

They went completely white, two of them said they felt they were going to faint. I certainly had their attention for the rest of the lecture -- they were sure I'm going to drop dead any minute.

Still, one woman, obviously angry that I have insulted her cherished beliefs like that, told me that I don't understand: homeopathy isn't for treating conditions like that, it's for long term benefits. So I asked her two questions:

1). In that case, why do they sell it as a sleeping drop?
2). I just took 50 times the recommended amount. If I had done it with actual sleeping pills, I'd be dead. What does long-term mean here -- that I will eventually die?

as many as 75,000 european medical doctors think you are dead wrong -- most of them being german and french

[paximperium]

as many as 75,000 european medical doctors think you are dead wrong -- most of them being german and french
Must be the reason he was killed by the power of homeopathy...oh wait, he wasn't.

[meow]

rustum roy thinks you are wrong also, and he proved it despite rolfey's claim that the alcohol was contaminated.

louis rey also proved it as did several of the basophil studies.

basophil studies p<.0001 (ennis et al 2004)

[Gr8wight]

If you make people think they are thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they hate you.

I've got a similar quote recorded as :"Two percent of the people think; three percent of the people think they think; and ninety-five percent of the people would rather die than think." --George Bernard Shaw

[Gr8wight]

rustum roy thinks you are wrong also, and he proved it despite rolfey's claim that the alcohol was contaminated.

louis rey also proved it as did several of the basophil studies.

basophil studies p<.0001 (ennis et al 2004)

So, answer the question: why is he still alive...or awake?

[paximperium]

rustum roy thinks you are wrong also, and he proved it despite rolfey's claim that the alcohol was contaminated.

louis rey also proved it as did several of the basophil studies.

basophil studies p<.0001 (ennis et al 2004)
This nonsense again?
Please tell us what a p-value means.

[meow]

Must be the reason he was killed by the power of homeopathy...oh wait, he wasn't.

gee, ya think maybe it doesn't work that way. ya think maybe it be true when they say 1 is roughly the same as 50 but if the 50 were spread out over a few days it would be different than all at once?


it's only a matter of time before rustum roy's UV spect shuts you all down and has you mumbling to yourselves.

[paximperium]

gee, ya think maybe it doesn't work that way. ya think maybe it be true when they say 1 is roughly the same as 50 but if the 50 were spread out over a few days it would be different than all at once?
That was not coherent. Please speak in a language that people can understand.

it's only a matter of time before rustum roy's UV spect shuts you all down and has you mumbling to yourselves.Must be reason why he has failed repeatedly and no one has been able to replicate his results.

[Z]

My gods - someone still believes in homeopathy?

I thought this nonsense was finally dying out along with cranial drills and yak dung.

[ponderingturtle]

Are you sure it was 4D and not 4C? 'D' is a decimal (1/10) dilution rather than 1/100.

I thought 1/10 dilution where 4X not 4D. As they seem to go by roman numerals D would be 1/500.

[ponderingturtle]

My gods - someone still believes in homeopathy?

I thought this nonsense was finally dying out along with cranial drills and yak dung.

I want self trepanation to make a comeback.

[tyr_13]

as many as 75,000 european medical doctors think you are dead wrong -- most of them being german and french

Note to self; don't get sick in Germany or France.

[Z]

So... is Penta water still being sold, too?

[meow]

It took some (not too much) guts to do this, though. The thought went through my mind that I might be wrong -- no, not that homeopathy will work, but that perhaps it's a "fake fake" -- "homeopathic" medicine that actually DOES have active ingredients, and is sold as "homeopathic" because you can charge more for it.

To make sure I chose the product of a very reputable and well-known homeopathic medicine company. Not for them is that wishy-washy "fake hoemopathy" stuff. When they say -- right on the label -- that their sleeping drops have nothing in them, you KNOW they have nothing in them.

The main ingredient, I believe, was caffeine "D4" (diluted to 100^4, or 1 part in 100,000,000) and extracts from some poisonous plants diluted to "D6" (100^6, or 1 part in 1,000,000,000,000). Not QUITE "not a single molecule left" concentration, but close enough for government work.

if it were to work it would be subtle. sounds like you failed miserably in proving your point. 10,000 homeopaths would not think it would knock you out.

all you succeeded in doing is show people that you are closed minded.



rustum roy has taken the first of many steps to shut you all down for he has distinguished between a 30c remedy and a control. he has even distinguished one remedy from another.

you all lose.

[Z]

if it were to work it would be subtle. sounds like you failed miserably in proving your point. 10,000 homeopaths would not think it would knock you out.

all you succeeded in doing is show people that you are closed minded.



rustum roy has taken the first of many steps to shut you all down for he has distinguished between a 30c remedy and a control. he has even distinguished one remedy from another.

you all lose.

Post your evidence, please.

[meow]

So... is Penta water still being sold, too?

penta water is a scam. it is because i say so.

[meow]

Post your evidence, please.
http://www.rustumroy.com/May%2016th%20Webinar.pdf

check out those wiggly lines on the graphs. there's your evidence.



The defining role of structure (including epitaxy)
in the plausibility of homeopathy, Manju Lata Rao, Rustum Roy, Iris R Bell,and Richard Hoover, Homeopathy (2007) 96, pp. 175–182.

Webinar with Prof. Rustum Roy and Prof. Iris Bell on recent research in materials science which shows physical evidence for unique dosage and remedy signatures in water.

May 16, 2007

by Prof. Rustom Roy and Iris Bell, MD, PhD

In May 2007, the NCH's first web cast featured groundbreaking results that may forever change the face of homeopathy.

Professor Rustom Roy, the Founding Director of the Materials Research Laboratory at Penn State and one of the world's leading experts on the structure of water, along with Professor Iris R. Bell, Director of Research Education for the Program of Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona College of Medicine, presented their findings to an audience of prominent American scientists and medical researchers.

Roy's laboratory has found, using multiple testing methods, that not only do different remedy dilutions in excess of Avogadro's number carry unique characteristic signatures, but different potencies do as well!

These results will not only serve to prove to the scientific community that homeopathic medicines are not placebo medicine, but they also will provide a way for the homeopathic pharmacies to assure the nature and quality of their products.

[Shalamar]

penta water is a scam. it is because i say so.

Homeopathy is a scame. it is, because I say so.

And, oh yes, the rather overwhelming evidence also says so. If plain distilled water was a cure all, no-one would ever get sick.

[Z]

http://www.rustumroy.com/May%2016th%20Webinar.pdf

check out those wiggly lines on the graphs. there's your evidence.



The defining role of structure (including epitaxy)
in the plausibility of homeopathy, Manju Lata Rao, Rustum Roy, Iris R Bell,and Richard Hoover, Homeopathy (2007) 96, pp. 175–182.

Webinar with Prof. Rustum Roy and Prof. Iris Bell on recent research in materials science which shows physical evidence for unique dosage and remedy signatures in water.

May 16, 2007

by Prof. Rustom Roy and Iris Bell, MD, PhD

In May 2007, the NCH's first web cast featured groundbreaking results that may forever change the face of homeopathy.

Professor Rustom Roy, the Founding Director of the Materials Research Laboratory at Penn State and one of the world's leading experts on the structure of water, along with Professor Iris R. Bell, Director of Research Education for the Program of Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona College of Medicine, presented their findings to an audience of prominent American scientists and medical researchers.

Roy's laboratory has found, using multiple testing methods, that not only do different remedy dilutions in excess of Avogadro's number carry unique characteristic signatures, but different potencies do as well!

These results will not only serve to prove to the scientific community that homeopathic medicines are not placebo medicine, but they also will provide a way for the homeopathic pharmacies to assure the nature and quality of their products.

OK... let me clarify: instead of a powerpoint presentation that could have been assembled by any high-schooler, I want the link to the experiments and their published results, and the confirmed repetition of those experiments by independent researchers. In science, we call this 'evidence'.

Sorry for not being clear.

[meow]

it'll cost you $31.50 to see the study, and not sure if anyone is bothering to repeat it. i certainly hope so, but it could be repeated 75,000 times (1 time for each of the european MD's that prescribe homeopathic remedies in their practice) and it still wouldn't even make you people stop and consider.



that is because you people have your minds firmly slammed shut to ideas that seem implausible

[Z]

Where will it cost me $31.50 to view a reputable scientific journal entry, when I have college access to such journals - for free? Also, how old is this study? Either it's extremely new - unlikely, being the range of quoted dates only reaches to what, 2005 in the PP presentation? - or it's a couple of years old - which makes it of questionable value, since Rustum Roy's name isn't even linked as supporting homeopathy on Wikipedia or other Internet sources - only in his own biography, and only in a roundabout way. In fact, the most 'support' he offers appears to be in the form of citing unrelated studies that are several years old in a few 'letter to the editor' style articles.

My mind is quite open, by the way, as long as the science is valid. So far, as of 2009, the science does not support homeopathy.

[JimBenArm]

it'll cost you $31.50 to see the study, and not sure if anyone is bothering to repeat it. i certainly hope so, but it could be repeated 75,000 times (1 time for each of the european MD's that prescribe homeopathic remedies in their practice) and it still wouldn't even make you people stop and consider.



that is because you people have your minds firmly slammed shut to ideas that seem implausible
Sadly, we must lament the passing of Skeptic, who shuffled off this mortal coil in a foolish attempt to prove that homeopathy was bunk. If only he'd been willing to part with another $31.50 to find out the truth, this senseless death could have been prevented.

Wait, what's that? It didn't phase him? After taking 50 times the recommended dose? He didn't even fall asleep in class?

Uhm, yeah. Your "doctors" can keep prescribing this junk all they want. My aunt was thoroughly convinced "stump water" would cure warts, too. She was just as correct as you and your "doctors" are.

Basically, what I take from this post of yours is:
You're fronting for whoever is selling this "study". You are no more interested in truth than Uri Geller or Sylvia is, it's just another way to try to separate more rubes from their money. Unfortunately, you are fishing on the wrong bank, as there are too few rubes to bilk here, and that angers you, obviously.

Maybe if you toss in some Ginzu knives, we might go for it...

[Foolmewunz]

He's the guy who claimed a couple of years ago that he had duplicated some experiment that could burn salt water by applying radio waves, the frequency of which he will not tell anyone.

As I recall, he was supposed to meet with the Department of Energy the next day to talk about funding and applications.

I guess this is why you're all drving saltwater driven vehicles in America now. Ya bunch of wisenheimers!

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by meow http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4502695#post4502695)
as many as 75,000 european medical doctors think you are dead wrong -- most of them being german and french

Note to self; don't get sick in Germany or France.
Note to self; don't get sick in Germany or France.Let's put that it perspective though. According to the WHO organisation there are 2,825,000 physicians in Europe.

So 2% of the entire number of physicians in Europe practice homeopathy.

From the European Council of Classical Homeopathy, there are only 4000 German homeopaths that are members of a professional association - this balanced by 284,000 physicians in Germany in 2006.

That's 1% of the entire number of physicians in Germany practicing homeopathy.

Can't find figures for France, but from a WHO census in 1993, it put the number of physicians registered to practice sCAM at 6.2% of the total - and 20% of those were homeopaths.

That's about 1% of the entire number of physicians in France practicing homeopathy.

Tyr_13, it's still pretty safe to travel in Europe - it's the pharmacies you have to watch out for, not the doctors.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Are you sure it was 4D and not 4C? 'D' is a decimal (1/10) dilution rather than 1/100.
D is 1/500. X is 1/10.

ETA: As always, I'm arriving late. Ponderingturtle already made this correction.

[godless dave]

I just thought that deserved to be quoted.

I thought it deserved to be nominated for the language award.

[Redtail]

Lionking: there is another risk here. that precisely BECAUSE you challange their beliefs, they'll drop the class, or even -- in theory -- threathen to complain or sue for "insulting" them. Students like to say they want to be "challanged", but in reality, like most of us, they don't. We all hate having out beliefs challanged.

If you make people think they are thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they hate you.

QFT. (Also I'm gonna find a place to use this experiment in my classes.)

[theMark]

D is 1/500. X is 1/10.

ETA: As always, I'm arriving late. Ponderingturtle already made this correction.

Errr... NO.
D = X = "Decimal" = 10number.
C = "Centesimal" = 100number.
LM = "50 millisimal" = 50,000number.

Straight from the horse's ... ahem ... "mouth":
http://www.wholehealthnow.com/homeopathy_pro/pro_glossary.html

Dear homeopaths: Your reality check has bounced.

Need a homeopathic anecdote for the day?

Today, at work, I encountered a leaflet of a medical journal mentioning a homeopathic remedy as endorsed by a (german) doctor for the treating of vaginal dryness.

Guess what it is?

Cuttlefish, aka Sepia officinalis.

Who would've though that hundreds of wacky japanese cartoon & comics artists would be so into homeopathy... :D

I don't know who does the "proving" of those things. I don't even want to know who came up with the idea. :mgbanghead

I'm not making that up. Who could make these things up? Okay, homeopaths, obviously. :eye-poppi

http://www.homeopathy.com.pk/medicines/sepia_officinalis.php
http://www.herbs2000.com/homeopathy/sepia.htm

"It is an excellent remedy for women who are averse to, or suffer pain during sexual intercourse and feel exhausted afterward."

Excuse me while I try to subdue my politically incorrect laughter...

[LTC8K6]

Speaking from experience here?

Certainly not!

The skin absorption dose just from touching one of the homeopathic pills gave me the vapors, whatever that is, so I had to lie down for a bit until I recovered.

This homeopathy is mean stuff!

[Skeptic Guy]

It took some (not too much) guts to do this, though. The thought went through my mind that I might be wrong -- no, not that homeopathy will work, but that perhaps it's a "fake fake" -- "homeopathic" medicine that actually DOES have active ingredients, and is sold as "homeopathic" because you can charge more for it.

To make sure I chose the product of a very reputable and well-known homeopathic medicine company. Not for them is that wishy-washy "fake hoemopathy" stuff. When they say -- right on the label -- that their sleeping drops have nothing in them, you KNOW they have nothing in them.

The main ingredient, I believe, was caffeine "D4" (diluted to 100^4, or 1 part in 100,000,000) and extracts from some poisonous plants diluted to "D6" (100^6, or 1 part in 1,000,000,000,000). Not QUITE "not a single molecule left" concentration, but close enough for government work.

There's someone in my office that thinks there might be something to homeopathic drugs and I have been thinking of taking an 'overdose' of a homeopathic sleeping drug to prove my point, but, like you, I was afraid I would pick some wacko brand that had something bad in it...but now I'll give it a go.

[Hitch]

So... the biggest danger in homeopathic medicine is getting something that actually does what it claims as opposed to what's printed on the label?

[skeen]

I too am amazed that someone still believes in homeopathy. Just wow.

[Safe-Keeper]

I too am amazed that someone still believes in homeopathy. Just wow. But he's stated that 15 000 health professionals say it's TRUE!

[Gr8wight]

rustum roy has taken the first of many steps to shut you all down for he has distinguished between a 30c remedy and a control. he has even distinguished one remedy from another.

you all lose.

Especially Randi. The esteemed Mr. Roy will surely take the million dollars from him.

Won't he?

[Skeptic]

Sadly, we must lament the passing of Skeptic, who shuffled off this mortal coil in a foolish attempt to prove that homeopathy was bunk. If only he'd been willing to part with another $31.50 to find out the truth, this senseless death could have been prevented.

Wait, what's that? It didn't phase him? After taking 50 times the recommended dose? He didn't even fall asleep in class?

I must have died and not realized it. Damn. Life after death doesn't seem much different than before. (Well, except for one thing -- now that I'm dead, it's only taxes.) Ah well, that sure showed me, eh?

[Skeptic]

that is because you people have your minds firmly slammed shut to ideas that seem implausible

So, apparently, it's my "closed mind" allowed me to take FIFTY TIMES the recommended dosage of homeopathic sleeping drops and not even yawn.

This sure gives "the power of the mind" a whole new meaning.

[rwguinn]

I must have died and not realized it. Damn. Life after death doesn't seem much different than before. (Well, except for one thing -- now that I'm dead, it's only taxes.) Ah well, that sure showed me, eh?

So, apparently, it's my "closed mind" allowed me to take FIFTY TIMES the recommended dosage of homeopathic sleeping drops and not even yawn.

This sure gives "the power of the mind" a whole new meaning.
OMG!
John and Sylvia are RIGHT!
You can talk to the dead!

[Z]

OMG!
John and Sylvia are RIGHT!
You can talk to the dead!

Nonsense - no one's talking. Apparently, you can TYPE to the dead!

[meow]

But he's stated that 15 000 health professionals say it's TRUE!


NO, IT'S 75,000 medical doctors

[paximperium]

NO, IT'S 75,000 medical doctors
So?

[Z]

NO, IT'S 75,000 medical doctors

50 million Elvis fans can't be wrong...

[Skeptic Ginger]

....

Still, one woman, obviously angry that I have insulted her cherished beliefs ...I was shocked the first time I had someone get mad at me in a class when I discussed the uselessness of Listerine's claim of killing germs. (Killing germs is not always a measure of infection prevented.)

Now I also ask them what they think the ingredient is in Listerine that kills the germs? They always answer, alcohol. What do you think I do next?

Show them alcohol is listed as an INACTIVE ingredient, and the manufacturers disguise that fact by putting inactive ingredients in the middle of the paragraph which starts, "Active ingredients:".

Demonstrations are useful, even it they just increase retained information.

[meow]

Especially Randi. The esteemed Mr. Roy will surely take the million dollars from him.

Won't he?

that entire prize is a fraud.

i saw where randi will not agree to any trial on homeopathy unless he includes that the controls are actual remedies that are blanked out by a magnet.

what a joke.

nothing but fraud of the highest order.

[paximperium]

that entire prize is a fraud.

i saw where randi will not agree to any trial on homeopathy unless he includes that the controls are actual remedies that are blanked out by a magnet.

what a joke.

nothing but fraud of the highest order.
Do you have any evidence of this claim?
What does a magnet have to do with anything?

[IMST]

that entire prize is a fraud.

i saw where randi will not agree to any trial on homeopathy unless he includes that the controls are actual remedies that are blanked out by a magnet.

what a joke.

nothing but fraud of the highest order.

And now you get to link us to where you saw Randi insist that the controls be actual remedies blanked out by a magnet. I suspect no one here believes that claim to be true.

[Skeptic Ginger]

.....
These results will not only serve to prove to the scientific community that homeopathic medicines are not placebo medicine, but they also will provide a way for the homeopathic pharmacies to assure the nature and quality of their products.Will?

Be sure to keep us updated on the progress. :rolleyes:

[meow]

http://www.rustumroy.com/May%2016th%20Webinar.pdf

check out those wiggly lines on the graphs. there's your evidence.



The defining role of structure (including epitaxy)
in the plausibility of homeopathy, Manju Lata Rao, Rustum Roy, Iris R Bell,and Richard Hoover, Homeopathy (2007) 96, pp. 175–182.

Webinar with Prof. Rustum Roy and Prof. Iris Bell on recent research in materials science which shows physical evidence for unique dosage and remedy signatures in water.

May 16, 2007

by Prof. Rustom Roy and Iris Bell, MD, PhD

In May 2007, the NCH's first web cast featured groundbreaking results that may forever change the face of homeopathy.

Professor Rustom Roy, the Founding Director of the Materials Research Laboratory at Penn State and one of the world's leading experts on the structure of water, along with Professor Iris R. Bell, Director of Research Education for the Program of Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona College of Medicine, presented their findings to an audience of prominent American scientists and medical researchers.

Roy's laboratory has found, using multiple testing methods, that not only do different remedy dilutions in excess of Avogadro's number carry unique characteristic signatures, but different potencies do as well!

These results will not only serve to prove to the scientific community that homeopathic medicines are not placebo medicine, but they also will provide a way for the homeopathic pharmacies to assure the nature and quality of their products.


undeniable evidence that water has a memory.

you people are really going to look dumb after this is replicated over and over and over

[paximperium]

undeniable evidence that water has a memory.

you people are really going to look dumb after this is replicated over and over and over
So why hasn't it been replicated?

[Skeptic Ginger]

....


that is because you people have your minds firmly slammed shut to ideas that seem implausibleRiiiight. Evidence has nothing to do with it. We singled out the ideas we were going to collectively dismiss and demanded sworn allegiance by all our secret group members.

[meow]

http://www.rustumroy.com/career_publications_Jan%202008.htm

Career Science Publications...

807. D.C. Dube, M. Fu, D. Agrawal, R. Roy and A. Santra, "Rapid Alloying of silicon with germanium in microwave field using single mode cavity," Mat Res Innov, 12(3), 119-122 (2008)

806. Chris Y. Fang, Dinesh K. Agrawal, William White, Rustum Roy, "Microwave Synthesis and Processing of Phosphors," Proc. Global Congress on Microwave Energy Applications, GCMEA 2008 Majic 1st, Japan, pp. 621-624 (2008)

805. Motoyasu Sato, Nobuyuki Nishi, Motohiko Tanaka, Akihiro Matsubara, Sadatugu Takayama, Hideoki Fukushima, Maxim Ignatenko, Rustum Roy, Dinesh Agrawal, Jun Fukusima, "Formation of Nano-Domains by Microscopic Thermal Non-Equilibrium Generated in GHz High Frequency Microwave Field," in Proc. Ist Global Cong MW Ener Appl August 2008, Japan, pg 491-494 (2008)



804. P. Gold, S. Novella, R. Roy, D. Marcus, I. Bell, N. Davidovitch and A. Saine, “Homeopathy—quackery or a key to the future of medicine?” Homeopathy, 2008, 97, 28-33.



803. M. L. Rao, R. Roy and I. Bell, “Characterization of the structure of ultra dilute sols with remarkable biological properties,” Materials Letters, 62, 1487-1490, 2008.



802. R. Roy, M. L. Rao and J. Kanzius, “Observations of polarized RF radiation catalysis of dissociation of H2O–NaCl solutions,” Materials Research Innovations, Volume 12, Number 1, pp. 3–6, March 2008.



801. S. Novella, R. Roy, D. Marcus, I. R. Bell, N. Davidovitch and A. Saine, “A Debate: Homeopathy—quackery of a key to the future of medicine?” J. of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, 2008, 14, 9-15.

800. M.L. Rao, R. Roy, I.R. Bell and R. Hoover, “The defining role of structure (including epitaxy) in the plausibility of homeopathy,” Homeopathy, 2007, 96, 175-182.

799. K. Nagata, K. Ishizaki, M. Kanazawa, T. Hayashi, M. Sato, A. Matsubara, S. Takayama, O. Motojima, D. Agrawal, R. Roy, “A concept of microwave furnace for steel making in industry scale,” Proceedings of 11th Intl Conf on Microwave and High Frequency Heating, Romania, Sept 3-6, 2007, pp. 87-90.

798. R. Roy, W.A. Till, I. Bell and M.R. Hoover, “The Structure of Liquid Water; Novel Insights from Materials Research; Potential Relevance to Homeopathy,” Materials Research Innovations, Volume 9, Issue 4, pp. 577-608 (December 2005)


797. L.N.Satapathy, P.D.Ramesh, D.Agrawal and R.Roy, "The infiltration of B-SiC in porous alumina compacts in a microwave field," Mater. Chem. & Physics, (communicated, 2007).



796. Monica Sorescu, L. Diamandescu, P.D. Ramesh, R. Roy, A. Daly and Z. Bruno, "Evidence for microwave-induced recrystallization in NiZn ferrites," Mater. Chem. & Physics, 15 February 2007, pp. 410-414.



795. Elucidation of Disequilibrium/Unsteady Micro-sinter process by in-situ observation, Proceedings of 2004 Spring Conference of the Japan Society of Powder and Powder Metallurgy (2004) p. 221.



794. P.D.Ramesh, A.Badzian, R.Roy and S. M. Copley, "Hybrid laser-microwave sintering of zirconia-base ceramics," Laser Institute of America [Publication] (2004), 97(ICALEO 2004) P556/101-106.

793. R. Roy, M. R. Hoover, A.S. Bhalla, T. Slawecki, S. Dey, W. Cao, J. Li, S. Bhaskar, "Ultradilute Ag-Aquasols with extraordinary bactericidal properties: the role of the system Ag-O-H2O," Mater. Res. Innov., 11 (1), pp. 3-18 (2007).

792. D.C. Dube, D. Agrawal, S. Agrawal, and R. Roy, "High temperature dielectric study of Cr2O3 in microwave region," Appl Phys. Letters 90, 124105 (2007).

791. Chris Y. Fang, Dinesh K. Agrawal, Ming Fu, Joan M. Coveleskie, Chung-nin Chau, James Walck, Robert T. McSweeney, and Rustum Roy, "Synthesizing Phosphors Through Microwave Process," Mater. Res. Soc. Symp. Proc. Vol. 988, 2007.List of Scientific Papers

790. R. Roy and D. Agrawal, "The New Science of Microwave−Materials Interactions: The Role of Separated E and H Fields and its Real World Applications," Proc. of the 6th Symposium on Microwave Applications and Related Fields, Nov 2-4, 2006, Oyaki-City, Japan

[meow]

So why hasn't it been replicated?

it's new and no one cares

[RoboTimbo]

NO, IT'S 75,000 medical doctors

Which leaves how many who aren't swayed by homeopathy's "evidence"?

[IMST]

Only about half of that list appears to have anything to do with homeopathy at all. Two look to have Steven Novella as an author, which makes me suspect it's not exactly on your side.

[Hazzarf]

Which leaves how many who aren't swayed by homeopathy's "evidence"?
The ones who aren't getting any money for claiming that homeopathy works, when it doesn't.

[Safe-Keeper]

NO, IT'S 75,000 medical doctorsWhich is still an abysmally small number when compared to the vast number of doctors and other health professionals (I'm assuming surgeons, techs, scientists, nurses, etc. don't count for some reason?) that haven't endorsed homeopathy.

Maybe if you could point to a majority of health professionals endorsing homeopathy you'd have something resembling the Appeal to Popularity fallacy you seem to be after. As it stands, it's not even that. But then again, we're discussing homeopathy, so maybe that was your intent.

that is because you people have your minds firmly slammed shut to ideas that seem implausible Standard alternative/quack/conspiracy theorist attack. Give me a break.

[paximperium]

it's new and no one cares
Not even other homeopaths?
One wonders why?

[paximperium]

Only about half of that list appears to have anything to do with homeopathy at all. Two look to have Steven Novella as an author, which makes me suspect it's not exactly on your side.
Looks like another meow random citation dump.

[IMST]

Looks like another meow random citation dump.

This is the first time I've noticed meow. Is this a common behavior for him/her?

[tyr_13]

Let's put that it perspective though. According to the WHO organisation there are 2,825,000 physicians in Europe.

So 2% of the entire number of physicians in Europe practice homeopathy.

From the European Council of Classical Homeopathy, there are only 4000 German homeopaths that are members of a professional association - this balanced by 284,000 physicians in Germany in 2006.

That's 1% of the entire number of physicians in Germany practicing homeopathy.

Can't find figures for France, but from a WHO census in 1993, it put the number of physicians registered to practice sCAM at 6.2% of the total - and 20% of those were homeopaths.

That's about 1% of the entire number of physicians in France practicing homeopathy.

Tyr_13, it's still pretty safe to travel in Europe - it's the pharmacies you have to watch out for, not the doctors.

That's good. Because I know quite a bit of French and my brother does know a lot of German. I'd go to England, but then I'd have to learn a whole other language.

[jli]

I opened and downed a whole bottle of homeopathic sleeping drops (showing them first it contains 50 times the recommended dosage) right in front of them.


Just out of curiosity: What would you have answered if one in the audience pointed out to you, that dilution (and a bit of succusion) is the way to enhance the effect of homeopathy. By increaing the dosis you were in fact weakening the effect ;)

[paximperium]

This is the first time I've noticed meow. Is this a common behavior for him/her?
I believe its a her.
And it is a resounding yes:
More Fun with Homeopath Dana Ullman, MPH(!)
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=82393&page=36

Homeopathy: Rustum Roy drops the bomb
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=88831&page=12

The memory of water rides again?
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=53385

She keeps spamming the same 2 studies.

[meow]

I believe its a her.
And it is a resounding yes:
More Fun with Homeopath Dana Ullman, MPH(!)
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=82393&page=36

Homeopathy: Rustum Roy drops the bomb
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=88831&page=12

The memory of water rides again?
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=53385

She keeps spamming the same 2 studies.


meow

Icy claim that water has memory

* 19:00 11 June 2003 by Lionel Milgrom

Claims do not come much more controversial than the idea that water might retain a memory of substances once dissolved in it. The notion is central to homeopathy, which treats patients with samples so dilute they are unlikely to contain a single molecule of the active compound, but it is generally ridiculed by scientists.

Yet a paper is about to be published in the reputable journal Physica A claiming to show that even though they should be identical, the structure of hydrogen bonds in pure water is very different from that in homeopathic dilutions of salt solutions. Could it be time to take the "memory" of water seriously?

The paper's author, Swiss chemist Louis Rey, is using thermoluminescence to study the structure of solids. The technique involves bathing a chilled sample with radiation. When the sample is warmed up, the stored energy is released as light in a pattern that reflects the atomic structure of the sample.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3817


meow meow

[meow]

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15594862

New physico-chemical properties of extremely diluted aqueous solutions
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
ELIA V. (1) ; NICCOLI M. (1) ;
Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)
(1) Department of Chemistry, University ' Federico II'of Naples, Complesso Universitario di Monte S. Angelo, via Cintia, 80126 Naples, ITALIE
Résumé / Abstract
The 'extremely diluted solutions' are anomalous solutions obtained through the iteration of two processes: a dilution 1:100 in mass and a succussion. The iteration is repeated until extreme dilutions are reached (less than 1.10-5 mol kg-1) to the point that we may call the resulting solution an extremely diluted solution, namely the composition of the solution is identical to that of the solvent used (e.g. twice distilled water). We conducted thermodynamic and transport measurements of the solutions and of the interaction of those solutions with acids or bases. The purpose of this study is to obtain information about the influence of successive dilutions and succussions on the water structure of the solutions under study. We measured the heats of mixing of acid or basic solutions with such 'extremely diluted solutions', their electrical conductivity and pH, comparing with the analogous heats of mixing, electrical conductivity and pH of the solvent. We found some relevant exothermic excess heats of mixing, higher electrical conductivity and pH than those of the untreated solvent. The measurements show a good correlation between independent physico-chemical parameters. Care was taken to take into account the effect of chemical impurities deriving from the glass containers. Here we thus show that successive dilutions and succussions can permanently alter the physico-chemical properties of the water solvent. The nature of the phenomena here described still remains unexplained, nevertheless some significant experimental results were obtained.
Revue / Journal Title
Journal of thermal analysis and calorimetry ISSN 1388-6150
Source / Source
2004, vol. 75, no3, pp. 815-836 [22 page(s) (article)] (32 ref.)

[meow]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15105967

1: Inflamm Res. 2004 May;53(5):181-8. Epub 2004 Apr 21.Click here to read Links
Histamine dilutions modulate basophil activation.
Belon P, Cumps J, Ennis M, Mannaioni PF, Roberfroid M, Sainte-Laudy J, Wiegant FA.

Boiron, 20 rue de la Libération, 69110 Sainte-Foy-Les-Lyon, France.

BACKGROUND: In order to demonstrate that high dilutions of histamine are able to inhibit basophil activation in a reproducible fashion, several techniques were used in different research laboratories. OBJECTIVE: The aim of the study was to investigate the action of histamine dilutions on basophil activation. METHODS: Basophil activation was assessed by alcian blue staining, measurement of histamine release and CD63 expression. Study 1 used a blinded multi-centre approach in 4 centres. Study 2, related to the confirmation of the multi-centre study by flow cytometry, was performed independently in 3 laboratories. Study 3 examined the histamine release (one laboratory) and the activity of H(2) receptor antagonists and structural analogues (two laboratories). RESULTS: High dilutions of histamine (10(-30)-10(-38) M) influence the activation of human basophils measured by alcian blue staining. The degree of inhibition depends on the initial level of anti-IgE induced stimulation, with the greatest inhibitory effects seen at lower levels of stimulation. This multicentre study was confirmed in the three laboratories by using flow cytometry and in one laboratory by histamine release. Inhibition of CD63 expression by histamine high dilutions was reversed by cimetidine (effect observed in two laboratories) and not by ranitidine (one laboratory). Histidine tested in parallel with histamine showed no activity on this model. CONCLUSIONS: In 3 different types of experiment, it has been shown that high dilutions of histamine may indeed exert an effect on basophil activity. This activity observed by staining basophils with alcian blue was confirmed by flow cytometry. Inhibition by histamine was reversed by anti-H2 and was not observed with histidine these results being in favour of the specificity of this effect We are however unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.



p<.0001

[ktesibios]

A couple of years ago Peter Bowditch (of Ratbags.com (http://www.ratbags.com)) did a similar stunt, ingesting an entire bottle of 200C homeopathic belladonna pills. Here's the video of his homeopathic suicide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bg1mSo7JQM&feature=channel

This is of considerable scientific interest, as in the course of this experiment he proves conclusively that among the many, many things which homeopathy cannot cure is an Australian accent.

[meow]

i made a new topic on water memory in the science/medicine section, enjoy!

[Skeptic]

NO, IT'S 75,000 medical doctors

Okay. So 75,000 medical doctors say I should've dropped dead.

I didn't.

What does that tell you about those 75,000 medical doctors?

[Skeptic]

Just out of curiosity: What would you have answered if one in the audience pointed out to you, that dilution (and a bit of succusion) is the way to enhance the effect of homeopathy. By increaing the dosis you were in fact weakening the effect ;)

I thought about that. I'd have taken out their bottle of water (most of them carry one all the time), put it in the corner of the classroom, and beg nobody to get close to that dangerous nuclear waste: the water in it, after all, have an even MORE diluted level of U-235 in it than the homeopathy medicine has of active material, so it has to be a lot MORE effective.

[meow]

Okay. So 75,000 medical doctors say I should've dropped dead.

I didn't.

What does that tell you about those 75,000 medical doctors?

i absolutely 100% bet my life on it that you will feel like the biggest fool some day.

the evidence is snowballing something fierce that water has a memory.

open your eyes and at least look at it.

these are prominent scientists and researchers. these are world class journals that are publishing this research.

quit being an ostrich

[meow]

Okay. So 75,000 medical doctors say I should've dropped dead.

I didn't.

What does that tell you about those 75,000 medical doctors?

are you for real?

do you really think that a homeopathic remedy can kill you?

be serious here.

[Doctor Evil]

are you for real?

do you really think that a homeopathic remedy can kill you?

be serious here.

If it can't kill, why should we expect it to be able to cure?

[meow]

Yesterday I gave a lecture in a course called "critical thinking". I asked the students what do they think critical thinking is good for.



who did you lecture and why?

[Skeptic Guy]

that entire prize is a fraud.

i saw where randi will not agree to any trial on homeopathy unless he includes that the controls are actual remedies that are blanked out by a magnet.

what a joke.

nothing but fraud of the highest order.

Do you have any evidence of this claim?
What does a magnet have to do with anything?

Hello, Meow, over here! Care to find that reference?

meow

Icy claim that water has memory

* 19:00 11 June 2003 by Lionel Milgrom

Claims do not come much more controversial than the idea that water might retain a memory of substances once dissolved in it. The notion is central to homeopathy, which treats patients with samples so dilute they are unlikely to contain a single molecule of the active compound, but it is generally ridiculed by scientists.

Yet a paper is about to be published in the reputable journal Physica A claiming to show that even though they should be identical, the structure of hydrogen bonds in pure water is very different from that in homeopathic dilutions of salt solutions. Could it be time to take the "memory" of water seriously?

The paper's author, Swiss chemist Louis Rey, is using thermoluminescence to study the structure of solids. The technique involves bathing a chilled sample with radiation. When the sample is warmed up, the stored energy is released as light in a pattern that reflects the atomic structure of the sample.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3817


meow meow

2003 story and no report released since? Interesting.

are you for real?

do you really think that a homeopathic remedy can kill you?

be serious here.

Um, if you took an overdose of a sleep medication, would it be unreasonable to expect that it could kill you?

[skeen]

Typical woo statement: "one day, you'll all see!"

Ya. Thing about that is, it never happens.

[Rolfe]

as many as 75,000 european medical doctors think you are dead wrong -- most of them being german and french


Hi Xanta. Missed ya.

Rolfe.

[meow]

2003 story and no report released since? Interesting.




what are u talking about?


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TVG-481MMWB-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=0dd37a60a935ce27e1ac6ccc41b2ef1c



doi:10.1016/S0378-4371(03)00047-5
How to Cite or Link Using DOI (Opens New Window)

Copyright © 2003 Elsevier Science B.V. All rights reserved.

Thermoluminescence of ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride
Purchase the full-text article



References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.

Louis ReyCorresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author

Chemin de Verdonnet 2, 1010, Lausanne, Switzerland

Received 10 December 2002.
Available online 28 February 2003.

Abstract

Ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride (10−30 gcm−3) have been irradiated by X- and γ-rays at 77 K, then progressively rewarmed to room temperature. During that phase, their thermoluminescence has been studied and it was found that, despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number, the emitted light was specific of the original salts dissolved initially.
Article Outline

[Rolfe]

OK... let me clarify: instead of a powerpoint presentation that could have been assembled by any high-schooler, I want the link to the experiments and their published results, and the confirmed repetition of those experiments by independent researchers. In science, we call this 'evidence'.

Sorry for not being clear.


The results were published in the Journal Homeopathy in August 2007. The paper was free-access for a while, but no longer. (Though if this goes on, I'll post the pdf where people can see it.)

What is accessible on this forum is the letter that four forum members sent to the journal to refute the conclusions (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2909440#post2909440). It was accepted and published essentially as is. The main author (Rao) was given right to reply, but had no coherent response.

27th August 2007.

Dr. Peter Fisher,
Editor, Homeopathy,
The Royal London Homoeopathic Hospital,
60 Great Ormond Street,
London, WC1N 3HR.

Dear Sir,

We wish to draw to your attention serious anomalies and incongruities in the UV absorption data presented in the paper by Rao et al., published in your July 2007 issue [1].

In a study of this nature, which in effect is examining multiple samples of ethanol, the over-riding concern must be absolute uniformity in the source of the solvent. For the data to be valid, it is essential that every drop of ethanol used must be sourced from the same stock bottle. However, the authors fail to make any mention of this point, and it is clear from the results presented that the source of ethanol in this investigation was most certainly not uniform.

The most striking anomaly is the UV spectrum presented for "plain ethanol", a single trace repeated three times in figure 3. The provenance of this sample is not recorded. This trace reveals extremely high absorbance (greater than 0.8 absorbance units) at 250nm, falling off steeply towards 400nm but still above 0.4 units by 350nm, and demonstrating an absorbance peak of 0.65 units with a lambda-max of about 330nm. It is simply impossible to represent this trace as being ethanol of any recognised degree of purity. Spectroscopic grade ethanol has an absorbance of less than 0.05 units between 250 and 400nm [2], and even USP/NF pharmaceutical grade ethanol has an absorbance of less than 0.3 units at 250nm, falling off to less than 0.1 units by 270nm [3]. If the substance measured by the authors as "plain ethanol" was indeed ethanol at all, it is clear that it contained extremely high levels of impurities, possibly including acetone.

In contrast, the spectra of the samples which were diluted and succussed (Nat mur, Nux vomica and the "succussed ethanol" with no mother tincture), and which were presumably all supplied by Hahnemann Laboratories as detailed on page 178, demonstrate substantially lower levels of impurities. While still not being spectroscopic grade ethanol, these samples could well represent ordinary pharmaceutical grade ethanol. The authors claim these samples are "different", however the evidence presented for this is weak to nonexistent.

Figure 1 presents one trace each for Nat mur and Nux vomica, each at 6C, 12C and 30C potencies. The traces are said to be "representative", however with no information on repeatability or how the "representative" traces were selected, it is impossible to say whether there is any real difference between any of the six spectra.

Figure 2 purports to address this point, but then fails to present the necessary data. The legend declares that 10 samples of each of the six remedy preparations were analysed. The accepted way to present such data would be as mean absorbance ± standard deviation for each wavelength point, or at least for a representative selection of wavelength points. Statistical analysis could then be used to demonstrate whether or not there was a real difference between any of the remedies or potencies. However, the authors have instead chosen to present only two traces for each preparation, as "envelopes of differences". The derivation of these traces is not explained, although we surmise that "extreme" high and low traces for each preparation were chosen to provide an impression of the range of results obtained. This is not an appropriate method of handling data of this nature, as most of the information is lost and statistical analysis is rendered impossible.

A further difficulty with figure 2 is that the upper (open circles) trace in the top graph of fig 2a (30C Nat mur) appears to be a duplicate of the upper (filled circles) trace in the top graph of fig 2b (30C Nux vom). Comparison with other traces of the two remedies indicates that this trace is really one of Nux vom, which has been duplicated into the Nat mur graph in error.

Paucity of data, ambiguity of presentation and lack of statistical analysis prevent any conclusions being drawn from the information in figure 2.

Comparison of figure 2 with figure 1 reveals that all six traces presented in figure 1 are taken from figure 2, in each case the filled-circles traces. If indeed the traces in figure 2 represent the extreme range of results obtained, this is startling, as the traces in figure 1 are stated to be "representative". In addition, while it does appear that the Nux vom samples tended to demonstrate higher absorbances than the Nat mur samples (excluding the obvious mistake noted above), in two out of the three potencies the higher Nux vom trace from fig 2 has been chosen for inclusion in fig 1, thus exaggerating the apparent difference.

Figure 3 (b and c) again repeats the same six traces as figure 1, this time grouped by remedy. Presented in this way, it is clear that there is absolutely no difference between the three potencies of Nat mur, and that while variation between the Nux vom potencies is a little more pronounced, again all three appear to come from the same population. The same is true of the three potencies of "succussed ethanol" presented in fig 3a.

On simple visual inspection it does appear that there may be genuine differences between the three remedies (although no statistics are presented to allow this to be tested), with the Nat mur showing the lowest absorbtion and the Nux vom the highest, with the succussed ethanol lying somewhere between. Nevertheless, these differences are entirely consistent with small differences in purity of the ethanol stock used for preparation of the three remedies - small, that is, relative to the very high level of impurity evident in the "plain ethanol" sample presented alongside. This degree of variation in UV absorbance is entirely to be expected between different batches of pharmaceutical grade ethanol, which is not prepared with spectroscopic analysis in mind. The authors make no mention of having stipulated to Hahnemann Laboratories that all material sent to them should be prepared from the same stock bottle, and the data presented indicate that the different remedies, possibly prepared at different times, simply came from different bottles of ethanol.

We hope you will agree that these are very serious points, and it is regrettable they were not identified by your own scrutineering process. It is clear that the data presented are wholly inadequate to support the authors’ assertion that UV spectroscopy can differentiate between the two remedies, and between different potencies of the remedies. If the authors wish to test their assertion so that it can be substantiated it will be necessary to repeat the work from the beginning, ensuring that all samples used in the study are sourced from the same bottle of stock solvent, that all duplicate preparations for precision assessment are separately prepared de novo from the mother tinctures, and that sufficient data are generated to allow robust and valid statistical analysis of the results.

Yours faithfully,

Rolfe
JJM
Wilsontown
Pipirr

References:
1. Rao, M. L., Roy, R., Bell, I. R. & Hoover, R. (2007) The defining role of structure (including epitaxy) in the plausibility of homeopathy. Homeopathy 96, 175-182.
2. Sigma Aldrich catalogue, ACS spectrophotometric grade ethanol 95.0%, at www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/search/ProductDetail/SIAL/493511 (http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/search/ProductDetail/SIAL/493511)
3. Sigma Aldrich catalogue, USP/NF grade ethanol 190 proof, at www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/search/ProductDetail/ALDRICH/493538 (http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/search/ProductDetail/ALDRICH/493538)


Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

NO, IT'S 75,000 medical doctors


Meow (known and loved by us all as Xanta, in another existence) bases this assertion, which she has been making repeatedly since at least 2003 to my certain knowledge, on figures detailing the number of doctors in various countries who have either prescribed a homoeopathic remedy, or referred a patient to a homoeopath.

Nothing to do with supporting or believing in homoeopathy.

Many doctors welcome the existence of homoeopathic provision as a way to offload the chronic complainers who have little wrong with them. In particular, even doctors who are implacably opposed to homoeopathy will accede to a request from a patient to be referred to a homoeopath. (One of my best friends is a doctor who physically burned an entire consignment of ante-natal advice leaflets sent to her practice because of a one-line recommendation of homoeopathy on the back page, despite the leaflets otherwise containing good advice. But she tells me she has referred patients to homoeopaths, when they requested the referral, and she believed they had nothing actually wrong with them anyway. And she is included in meow's 75,000 because of that.)

In an identical exchange some time ago (Xanta has a very short repeat cycle) Badly Shaved Monkey, leading light of the anti-homoeopathy illuminati, admitted that he had referred patients to homoeopaths when requested to do so by the client, and when he believed the resulting lack of effective care would not cause harm.

Wait for it, the next bit of the cycle involves "THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND. AND HER SON." In large bold red letters.

Rolfe.

[Questioninggeller]

Among other things I noted that, if nothing else, it gives you supernatural powers to resist poison: I opened and downed a whole bottle of homeopathic sleeping drops (showing them first it contains 50 times the recommended dosage) right in front of them.


Aren't there some brands of homeopathic pills that aren't really homeopathic (they work and have real drugs in them), but just market themselves as homeopathic?

I'm just wondering in case someone makes a mistake and actually does this with real drugs.

[Rolfe]

This is the first time I've noticed meow. Is this a common behavior for him/her?


Yup. We're not allowed to make accusations of sock-puppetry, but if you know where to look you'll find the exact same posts made by about five other identities.

This person is the poster "Xanta" from H'pathy Forums and other homoeopathic discussion groups. She has a very limited repertory, and a fondness for intermittent trolling.

Rolfe.

[NobbyNobbs]

Which is still an abysmally small number when compared to the vast number of doctors and other health professionals (I'm assuming surgeons, techs, scientists, nurses, etc. don't count for some reason?) that haven't endorsed homeopathy.

Maybe if you could point to a majority of health professionals endorsing homeopathy you'd have something resembling the Appeal to Popularity fallacy you seem to be after. As it stands, it's not even that. But then again, we're discussing homeopathy, so maybe that was your intent.

Standard alternative/quack/conspiracy theorist attack. Give me a break.


It's homeopathy; less is more. If you found that there's only one doctor who supports homeopathy, well, then you'd have something.

As it is, with so many supporting it, that's homeopathic evidence that it doesn't work.

:D

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

The claims must be true. She wrote them in huge, brightly coloured text. I'm sure a few exclaimation points would have convinced everyone.



At any rate, if 75 000 people believe a stupid thing, it is still a stupid thing.

[Ashles]

quit being an ostrich
Ironically, another commonly held misconception.

[meow]

Nothing to do with supporting or believing in homoeopathy.

Many doctors welcome the existence of homoeopathic provision as a way to offload the chronic complainers who have little wrong with them. In particular, even doctors who are implacably opposed to homoeopathy will accede to a request from a patient to be referred to a homoeopath. (One of my best friends is a doctor who physically burned an entire consignment of ante-natal advice leaflets sent to her practice because of a one-line recommendation of homoeopathy on the back page, despite the leaflets otherwise containing good advice. But she tells me she has referred patients to homoeopaths, when they requested the referral, and she believed they had nothing actually wrong with them anyway. And she is included in meow's 75,000 because of that.)


Rolfe.

no, it has nothing to do with docs who refer patients but only those who prescribe. the study conducted by some french researchers were clear on this.

[Rolfe]

no, it has nothing to do with docs who refer patients but only those who prescribe. the study conducted by some french researchers were clear on this.


How about you post the exact reference then. It must be about 2003 since I saw you actually quote it.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

i made a new topic on water memory in the science/medicine section, enjoy!


It's here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=137238). Most of the discussion seems to have moved.

It's past my bed-time, so goodnight.

Rolfe.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

rustum roy thinks you are wrong also, and he proved it despite rolfey's claim that the alcohol was contaminated.

louis rey also proved it as did several of the basophil studies.

basophil studies p<.0001 (ennis et al 2004)

Ummmmm.....What?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

p<.0001

My experiments show p = .0001. Do you know where I went wrong?

[Foolmewunz]

no, it has nothing to do with docs who refer patients but only those who prescribe. the study conducted by some french researchers were clear on this.

From the Some French Researchers Institute, no doubt.
And you have the actual study to back that up? :popcorn2

[arthwollipot]

gee, ya think maybe it doesn't work that way. ya think maybe it be true when they say 1 is roughly the same as 50 but if the 50 were spread out over a few days it would be different than all at once?For a sleep aid? I thought a sleep aid was supposed to... um, help you to get to sleep. How would something that you take over a period of time assist acute insomnia?

Normal sleeping tablets work like this. If I can't get to sleep, I take a tablet, and it helps me to sleep. Are you saying that if I get a night of insomnia I have to take a homeopathic remedy over days in order to get any benefit?

[TjW]

For a sleep aid? I thought a sleep aid was supposed to... um, help you to get to sleep. How would something that you take over a period of time assist acute insomnia?

Normal sleeping tablets work like this. If I can't get to sleep, I take a tablet, and it helps me to sleep. Are you saying that if I get a night of insomnia I have to take a homeopathic remedy over days in order to get any benefit?

Over the next couple of days, most people fall asleep at least once. You see how effective it is?

[Hitch]

Over the next couple of days, most people fall asleep at least once. You see how effective it is?

And if you overdose it will eventually kill you. It might take up to 70 years and seem like old age, but rest assured, it's the homeopathic overdose.

[bpesta22]

it's inappropriate to use a p value as a measure of effect size. Can you report an effect size instead?

Here's a great illustration.


In 1986, there appeared
in the New York Times a UPI dispatch under the headline "Children's Height Linked to Test Scores." The
article described a study that involved nearly 14,000 children 6 to 17 years of age that reported a definite
link between height (age- and sex-adjusted) and scores on tests of both intelligence and achievement. The
relationship was described as significant, and persisting, even after controlling for other factors, including
socioeconomic status, birth order, family size, and physical maturity...

...But it got me to wondering about how small this significant relationship might be. Well, if we take
significant to mean p < .001 (in the interest of scientific tough-mindedness), it turns out that a correlation
of .0278 is significant for 14,000 cases. But I've found that when dealing with variables expressed in units
whose magnitude we understand, the effect size in linear relationships is better comprehended with
regression than with correlation coefficients. So, accepting the authors' implicit causal model, it works out
that raising a child's IQ from 100 to 130 would require giving the child enough growth hormone to
increase his or her height by 14 ft (more or less). If the causality goes the other way, and one wanted to
create basketball players, a 4-in. increase in height would require raising the IQ about 900 points.



http://www.psych.uiuc.edu/~broberts/Cohen,%201990.pdf

[Skeptic]

are you for real?

do you really think that a homeopathic remedy can kill you?

Well, it says so in big warning labels right on the bottle... (Okay, actually not on the one I took, but on many of them).

Anyway, real medicine CAN kill you if you take enough of it. Certainly a box of real sleeping pills could. That's because it actually has some effect when taken in the correct dose. Homeopathic medicine doesn't since it doesn't do anything - it's just plain water.

But the point was not only that taking the entire bottle didn't kill me -- it's that it had no effect AT ALL. It didn't kill me. It didn't make me sleepy. It didn't calm me down, pick me up, make me yawn -- anything. It was just plain water, and completely without any effect.

(okay, I lie: in this case, the solvent was "42% alcohol in volume" -- for medical purposes only, I'm sure -- so it was a bit like taking a shot of whiskey in one gulp, only a lot more foul-tasting. But no effect more than that.)

[Skeptic]

Aren't there some brands of homeopathic pills that aren't really homeopathic (they work and have real drugs in them), but just market themselves as homeopathic?

I'm just wondering in case someone makes a mistake and actually does this with real drugs.

Indeed so. "Don't try this at home" as they say. But as I said already in this thread, I chose a reputable homeopathic company which has been in business for decades and is highly thought of in the community. When they SAY their medicine's got nothing, they MEAN it.

[Skeptic]

For a sleep aid? I thought a sleep aid was supposed to... um, help you to get to sleep. How would something that you take over a period of time assist acute insomnia?

Normal sleeping tablets work like this. If I can't get to sleep, I take a tablet, and it helps me to sleep. Are you saying that if I get a night of insomnia I have to take a homeopathic remedy over days in order to get any benefit?

Yes!

And if you take those pills for a whole week, SOMETIME during that week you WILL fall asleep!

See? Homeopathy works!

[Skeptic]

What I really hate about these homeopathy scammers is their dishonesty. They put big red warning labels about not taking too much of the stuff because it might kill you -- implying "see? This is POWERFUL medicine!" -- on their bottles...

...until Randi calls their bluff and downs a whole bottle at once with no ill effects, as he regularly does in his lectures. THEN, but ONLY then, they suddenly "explain" that it's not supposed to work like that, that taking the bottle at once is a "cheap stunt", that homeopathic medicine can't really kill you, and so on and so forth.

I say they're liars who got their bluff called, that's all.

[nathan]

... controls are actual remedies that are blanked out by a magnet.

Dayum! That must be why my homeopathic medicines never worked, they came too close to the magnetic fuel efficiency gizmo in the boot of my car!

[nathan]

I'd go to England, but then I'd have to learn a whole other language.

Perhaps this (http://www.sirc.org/publik/pub.html) will help?

[Mojo]

i made a new topic on water memory in the science/medicine section, enjoy!


No you didn't, you just spammed the same stuff you've already spammed here.

[Mojo]

NO, IT'S 75,000 medical doctors


Meow (known and loved by us all as Xanta, in another existence) bases this assertion, which she has been making repeatedly since at least 2003 to my certain knowledge, on figures detailing the number of doctors in various countries who have either prescribed a homoeopathic remedy, or referred a patient to a homoeopath.

Nothing to do with supporting or believing in homoeopathy.

Many doctors welcome the existence of homoeopathic provision as a way to offload the chronic complainers who have little wrong with them. In particular, even doctors who are implacably opposed to homoeopathy will accede to a request from a patient to be referred to a homoeopath. (One of my best friends is a doctor who physically burned an entire consignment of ante-natal advice leaflets sent to her practice because of a one-line recommendation of homoeopathy on the back page, despite the leaflets otherwise containing good advice. But she tells me she has referred patients to homoeopaths, when they requested the referral, and she believed they had nothing actually wrong with them anyway. And she is included in meow's 75,000 because of that.)

In an identical exchange some time ago (Xanta has a very short repeat cycle) Badly Shaved Monkey, leading light of the anti-homoeopathy illuminati, admitted that he had referred patients to homoeopaths when requested to do so by the client, and when he believed the resulting lack of effective care would not cause harm.


This is supported by research carried out in connection with the closure of the Tunbridge Wells Homeopathic Hospital, which found that although about half of GP practices referred patients to Homoeopaths (this is broadly in line with earlier research), "in those practices that use homeopathy, less than 1% of the registered population are referred", and "Almost all referrals for homeopathy are at the request of the patient rather than as a result of a clinical decision to refer" (see section 3.4 of this document (http://www.westkentpct.nhs.uk/download.php?id=883)). The number of doctors actually believing in homoeopathy would appear from this evidence to be almost vanishingly small.

See also "TEETH" and "TTFO".

[Z]

undeniable evidence that water has a memory.

you people are really going to look dumb after this is replicated over and over and over

Since 2007, it hasn't been replicated at all... Not impressed.

[Femke]

If you make people think they are thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they hate you.

Sorry I came in so late. Skeptic, may I use this gem in my sig?

Thanks,
Femke

[Foolmewunz]

Since 2007, it hasn't been replicated at all... Not impressed.


Not unlike Rumsum's sooper sekret radio frequencies that can set salt water aflame. I believe it was even the same year - 2007, and we were going to hear all these wondrous things.... but nary a word since and no replication. Just some YouTube video of the same old dumb sequence.

[eirik]

But you guys don't understand. Scientific evidence is not what we should expect if homeopathy is effective. We would indeed expect little or no evidence. And the evidence is so fantastically marginal it's practically amounts to nothing. With all all the non evidence Meow is presenting, mix it up -shake it around, voila, we have super diluted evidence. It will be super-convincing. Or, or, maybe this gets old. just bored, I guess..

(and yes, does anyone actually still believe this stuff? hmm)

[Skeptic Guy]

what are u talking about?


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TVG-481MMWB-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=0dd37a60a935ce27e1ac6ccc41b2ef1c



doi:10.1016/S0378-4371(03)00047-5
How to Cite or Link Using DOI (Opens New Window)

Copyright © 2003 Elsevier Science B.V. All rights reserved.

Thermoluminescence of ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride
Purchase the full-text article



References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.

Louis ReyCorresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author

Chemin de Verdonnet 2, 1010, Lausanne, Switzerland

Received 10 December 2002.
Available online 28 February 2003.

Abstract

Ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride (10−30 gcm−3) have been irradiated by X- and γ-rays at 77 K, then progressively rewarmed to room temperature. During that phase, their thermoluminescence has been studied and it was found that, despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number, the emitted light was specific of the original salts dissolved initially.
Article Outline

Thank you. It didn't look like anything happened after the marketing blurb in the magazine article you posted. I must have lost it in all the brightly colored words.

Has anyone replicated the experiment outside of Messr. Rey?

And have you found that evidence for your claim against Mr. Randi?

[dafydd]

if it were to work it would be subtle. sounds like you failed miserably in proving your point. 10,000 homeopaths would not think it would knock you out.

all you succeeded in doing is show people that you are closed minded.




rustum roy has taken the first of many steps to shut you all down for he has distinguished between a 30c remedy and a control. he has even distinguished one remedy from another.

you all lose.


Here are some ravings from this site
http://altmed.creighton.edu/Homeopathy/philosophy/treatment.htm



'The homeopathic treatment of a patient begins with careful history taking and observation of the patient. A list of the patient's symptoms is developed and can be determined from the materia medica or compared to a repertory. The materia medica contains the results of provings of thousands of substances. The idea ia to match the patients symptoms as closely as possible to the symptoms listed for a given substance in the materia medica.

The prescription is based on the symptoms and the behavior of the patient. Hahnemann believed that a single remedy should be given at a time, to prevent interference between two or more remedies.

The response to treatment is believed to follow the Laws of the Cure, which state:

* A remedy begins to work at the top of the body and progresses downward.
* A remedy works from the inside out; from major to minor organs
* Symptoms go away in the reverse of their order of appearance. '


If this is true (and that is the biggest if in the world) why do they sell over-the-counter homeopathic medicines?

[dafydd]

that entire prize is a fraud.

i saw where randi will not agree to any trial on homeopathy unless he includes that the controls are actual remedies that are blanked out by a magnet.

what a joke.

nothing but fraud of the highest order.

What is this magnet nonsense that you keep harping on about? Explanation please,with proof and remember that we speak Earth here.

[theMark]

If this is true (and that is the biggest if in the world) why do they sell over-the-counter homeopathic medicines?

Uh, if this is not a trick question ...

... because of the profits they're raking in? :D

[Ian]

"If you make people think they are thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they hate you."

Do some people hate this because really thinking is hard work, as opposed to just believing?

[Doctor Evil]

Do some people hate this because really thinking is hard work, as opposed to just believing?

This is a part, but not the most important one. Thinking about things may lead you to abandon beliefs which are part of your self image. This is not a pleasant process. The initial stage, where your most cherished beliefs are contrasted with evidence may lead to anger.

[jli]

I thought about that. I'd have taken out their bottle of water (most of them carry one all the time), put it in the corner of the classroom, and beg nobody to get close to that dangerous nuclear waste: the water in it, after all, have an even MORE diluted level of U-235 in it than the homeopathy medicine has of active material, so it has to be a lot MORE effective.
Guess I can picture that. And of course they would ask you to be carefulr not to succus their water too :D

[Tanstaafl]

Or, as noisy neighbours also keep you awake, you could ask the neighbours to host a small and very quiet party..


I think they should host their normal party. Just do it on another continent.

[Skeptic]

Sorry I came in so late. Skeptic, may I use this gem in my sig?

Thanks,
Femke

Yes, of course. I stole it from Harlan Ellison, who was actually quoting someone else. But it IS a great quote.

As they say in Hebrew, you can steal it -- since "stealing from a thief is not a crime".

[luchog]

gee, ya think maybe it doesn't work that way. ya think maybe it be true when they say 1 is roughly the same as 50 but if the 50 were spread out over a few days it would be different than all at once?

I noticed that you ignored my post in the other homeopathy thread, so I'll repost the challenge here. You claimed that homeopathic remedies were "powerful" and could harm someone if misused. I say that is complete and total garbage, and I am happy to prove it.

I will take any truly homeopathic remedy you designate (no mislabled herbal medicine), in any dosage, for any length of time that you specify. I will make videos of myself doing so, and post them on the web. All you have to do is provide the remedy, from a high-quality source, free of contaminants or adulterants (so that unwanted substances don't mess up the results).

The onus is on you, now. Put up or shut up.

[Rolfe]

You better get her to tell you in advance what factors she might blame if it turns out the remedy has no effect.

I tried this years ago. I went on to a homoeoapthy board and started a thread specifically asking them to tell me what precautions I had to take while doing this test to make sure that nothing went wrong. I did this because I'd seen previous examples of such tests where after the event a whole lot of things had been cited as the reason the remedy was "antidoted" and so no effect occurred.

The person who originally challenged me had said not to clean my teeth or use a mouthwash within 15 minutes of taking the remedy. I asked if there was anything else. Just suppose, if nothing happens, what are you going to blame it on? Tell me now, so I can avoid doing it. One homoeopath posted something about "read it up", or "look up the antidotes" or something like that. I protested that I wasn't a homoeopath, and tmy reason for posting was so that they, the very people who would (possibly) find something to blame if it didn't work, could tell me in advance what to avoid. But she never elaborated.

So I got the Belladonna 30C (£4.99 for a teaspoonful of sugar!) and got going. Nothing happened. Then of course they started trawling for excuses. In response to prompting, I said that I'd had a glass of wine with my lunch one day, about a week into the trial. (I don't usually drink, so I hadn't thought to ask about that.) Xanta got very nasty about that point, and started referring to my "drink problem", and accusing me of being an alcoholic.

But in the end, guess what, it was coffee. You weren't drinking coffee were you? Well, of course that will antidote Belladonna! It would have been a miracle if you'd seen any effects. I protested that this was exactly what I'd asked about in my opening post. Oh, said one of them, but you're Scottish, we assumed you'd drink tea.

:hb:

Yes, you bunch of irredeemable morons, I drink a lot more tea than coffee as it happens. But I usually have a cup of coffee most mornings.

Then there was an argument between the bulk of the homoeopaths and one of their gurus. The guru maintained that only homoeopathic coffee would antidote Belladonna, and an ordinary cup of the stuff wouldn't have any effect.

In the end most of the thread was deleted, including all of my posts, after I'd got into a spat with Xanta (again) over her repeated spamming of threads with a cut-and-paste summary of some homoeopathic trials which contained a lie. I got banned, and the last I saw of it, only about a page and a half of disconnected and meaningless posts remained of what had been a 15-page thread.

Something rather similar happened to MRC_Hans when he responded to the same challenge. So, just be warned.

Rolfe.

[IMST]

[T]he last I saw of it, only about a page and a half of disconnected and meaningless posts remained of what had been a 15-page thread.

Thus demonstrating the priniples of homeopathy can be applied to internet forums.

[Skeptic]

he last I saw of it, only about a page and a half of disconnected and meaningless posts remained of what had been a 15-page thread.

Thus demonstrating the priniples of homeopathy can be applied to internet forums.



You know that if you have a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters eventually one of them will write Hamlet?

Well, the internet has proven that that's not true.

[the_smasher]

Could it be time to take the "memory" of water seriously?



I'm glad I decided to take the memory of the water in my swimming pool seriously. I used hypnosis on it to discover repressed memories of alien abduction and late night yeti parties. I'm currently working up a protocol to submit for the Million Dollar Challenge; I plan to use my share of the prize to buy a bigger pool.

[XLDS03]

A dear friend of mine is a homeopath. She knows I'm skeptical of her practice and set me to a challenge. I'm not going to be convinced by anything but hard evidence, for or against. I don't believe in homeopathy, but I need to fully understand what I'm discounting. Other than it sounds ludicrous.

Do you guys know of any really good books detailing the controversy?

I'm going to read what I can find by Samuel Hahnemann, founder of homeopathy. I'm going to study the placebo effect. I'm going to study pharmacological effects, like the law of mass action. I'm going to study chemistry. I'm going to study the concept of vitalism. I'm going to study psychology, particularly mass movements. Anything I might be missing?

I'm not anywhere near to being an MD. But I've got to know, as far as a layperson can, what I'm talking about. I can't leave the issue open to faith. That vitalism concept seems the linchpin.

I'm doing a personal study of quantum mechanics, too. As is well known, the quantum world is weird. But the theory has mountains of evidence. Though I trust the skeptics, I can't leave my knowledge so limited that homeopathy sounds relatable, in principle, to the Uncertainty Principle.

I know it seems like overkill, but I want to be as educated as I can on this subject, among many others.

[Foolmewunz]

A dear friend of mine is a homeopath. She knows I'm skeptical of her practice and set me to a challenge. I'm not going to be convinced by anything but hard evidence, for or against. I don't believe in homeopathy, but I need to fully understand what I'm discounting. Other than it sounds ludicrous.

Do you guys know of any really good books detailing the controversy?

I'm going to read what I can find by Samuel Hahnemann, founder of homeopathy. I'm going to study the placebo effect. I'm going to study pharmacological effects, like the law of mass action. I'm going to study chemistry. I'm going to study the concept of vitalism. I'm going to study psychology, particularly mass movements. Anything I might be missing?

I'm not anywhere near to being an MD. But I've got to know, as far as a layperson can, what I'm talking about. I can't leave the issue open to faith. That vitalism concept seems the linchpin.

I'm doing a personal study of quantum mechanics, too. As is well known, the quantum world is weird. But the theory has mountains of evidence. Though I trust the skeptics, I can't leave my knowledge so limited that homeopathy sounds relatable, in principle, to the Uncertainty Principle.

I know it seems like overkill, but I want to be as educated as I can on this subject, among many others.

I have to admit that I wasn't as well-versed in homeopathy as I should have been before arriving here a few years ago. Not that I was a supporter or believer - just that I hadn't encountered anyone who believed in it.

Try the Skeptics' Dictionary article as a good starting point. (I haven't read it in a while, but they always include a great bibliography in their section header type articles. You can probably find more books than you care to read if you follow their links.)


http://skepdic.com/homeo.html

[Safe-Keeper]

Could it be time to take the "memory" of water seriously?So water 'remembers' (how?) the substance you put into it, but it forgets all the other stuff like urine, chemical waste, smog, blood, Coca-cola, algae and dissolved tissue paper, that it has previously come into contact with? Only the substance you put into it has an effect?

That's some selective memory, there.

:hb:A quite common reaction when dealing with this kind of people, I've understood.

[wexer9]

the evidence is snowballing something fierce that water has a memory.

Why doesn't our drinking water "remember" the sewage treatment plants it's been through?

are you for real?

do you really think that a homeopathic remedy can kill you?

be serious here.

Reading through your posts make me think you're a joke poster.
And a funny one at that! :D

[theMark]

Why doesn't our drinking water "remember" the sewage treatment plants it's been through?

That's because drinking water isn't banged on a piece of wood with the bottle aimed in north-south direction with just the right intensity. Or because of "quantum." Quantum's always a good answer, because nobody actually knows what it means. Something big, obviously, because of all new shiny things being "Quantum Leaps".

Oh, why not cut to the chase: "Magic." :duck:

There you have it. Problem of explanation solved. That is, if you think Harry Potter was a documentary.

Sorry. After 200 years of waiting for a real advance of Homeo over "orthodox" medicine to show, isn't it time to stop flogging the dead horse? :boggled:

Problem is, it's the zombie horse of homeopathy. It won't lie down. :mgbanghead

[Ralph]

[QUOTE=Skeptic;4505371

(okay, I lie: in this case, the solvent was "42% ALCOHOL IN VOLUME" -- for medical purposes only, I'm sure -- so it was a bit like taking a shot of whiskey in one gulp, only a lot more foul-tasting. But no effect more than that.)[/QUOTE]

I have a feeling this might have a bit more to do with it's claimed "efficacy" than how good the waters memory is.....not to metion what would happen to sales of the product if they took the alcohol out and just replaced it with really really smart water.....

[Hitch]

That's because drinking water isn't banged on a piece of wood with the bottle aimed in north-south direction with just the right intensity. Or because of "quantum." Quantum's always a good answer, because nobody actually knows what it means. Something big, obviously, because of all new shiny things being "Quantum Leaps".


Actually, if you get right down to it, "quantum" means pretty much the opposite of what most people carelessly throwing the term around think it does. "Quantum" is not "big."

And somehow that's perfectly on topic to this thread.

[theMark]

Actually, if you get right down to it, "quantum" means pretty much the opposite of what most people carelessly throwing the term around think it does. "Quantum" is not "big."

And somehow that's perfectly on topic to this thread.

Isn't "smallest possible in-/decrement" a good "everyday" approximation for the "quantum" stuff?

[XLDS03]

I have to admit that I wasn't as well-versed in homeopathy as I should have been before arriving here a few years ago. Not that I was a supporter or believer - just that I hadn't encountered anyone who believed in it.

Try the Skeptics' Dictionary article as a good starting point. (I haven't read it in a while, but they always include a great bibliography in their section header type articles. You can probably find more books than you care to read if you follow their links.)


http://skepdic.com/homeo.html

Silly me. Of course!:)

[cj.23]

Didn't Randi and a group of other skeptics publicly "poison" themselves in this fashion not too long ago?


Dunno, but I recall back in 1996 a group of UK Sceptics ate British beef (from a supposedly BSE infected source?) to show it was safe, because they did not believe that BSE was causally linked to (v)CJD. Anyone got any details? I'd imagine they are doing just fine - they were wrong -- but the risk was pretty small (at least has proven so so far, thank God.)

cj x

[Safe-Keeper]

That's because drinking water isn't banged on a piece of wood with the bottle aimed in north-south direction with just the right intensity. Or because of "quantum." Quantum's always a good answer, because nobody actually knows what it means. Something big, obviously, because of all new shiny things being "Quantum Leaps".Oh, right, the whole deal with subjecting the water to electrical charges and whatnot. Silly me.

[Mojo]

Dunno, but I recall back in 1996 a group of UK Sceptics ate British beef (from a supposedly BSE infected source?) to show it was safe, because they did not believe that BSE was causally linked to (v)CJD.


Would one of them have been John Selwyn Gummer's daughter?

[wexer9]

Oh, why not cut to the chase: "Magic."

How foolish of me. Magic Man Done It!™, of course. :D

[Rolfe]

You'd be surprised. :rolleyes:

Magic of signs (http://www.vetpath.co.uk/voodoo/walach.pdf).

Although the original substance is diluted, it is still in some way 'present' and effective. This presence, I will contend in this paper, is a magical, not a causal presence, like the one described in the text by Scholem. Magical presence and effects are wrought by signs, not by causes. In this sense, homeopathy is effective in a non-local way: it acts by magically activating connectedness. It uses a system of signs to bring about this action. I propose to use Jung's model of synchronicity, or, in more general terms, a general model of acausal effects, in order to understand this action. I will turn to explain how the scientically obscene word 'magic' can be understood in an inoffensive way. Then Jung's concept of synchronicity will be elucidated and set into a wider frame of a possible general class of acausal effects. At last homeopathy will be exemplied as one phenomenon falling under this category.


Rolfe.

[Ashles]

Would one of them have been John Selwyn Gummer's daughter?
Well, delightfully, she was forced to eat the beef by her father because he represented the governmental position that BSE was not causally linked to (v)CJD.

Politics is lovely sometimes.

[Mongrel]

I don't believe in homeopathy, but I need to fully understand what I'm discounting.

I found "Homeopathy: How it Really Works (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Homeopathy-Really-Jay-W-Shelton/dp/159102109X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237214458&sr=8-1)" a good general overview from the sceptics side
<snip>I'm going to study the placebo effect.

Try "Snake Oil Science (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Snake-Oil-Science-Complementary-Alternative/dp/0195313682/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237214684&sr=1-1)", it's dryer than Ernst and Singhs "Trick or Treatment" but it does break down many of the concepts that Alt med takes advantage of (Placebo, regression to the mean etc.)

[Ian]

Dr. Evil,

You wrote, "This is a part, but not the most important one. Thinking about things may lead you to abandon beliefs which are part of your self image. This is not a pleasant process. The initial stage, where your most cherished beliefs are contrasted with evidence may lead to anger."

Anger is a natural, human reaction to frustration. People become frustrated when their false fantasies are exposed to them as woo-woo. This may be explained by what Shakespeare wrote in Timon of Athens: Act One, scene two, in which Apemantus (the only true friend Timon has) rails agains Timon's ego, while Timon's fake friends just take his money. While Timon's fake friends flatter him with everything Timon wants to hear, Timon is warned by Cupid that he is not paying attention to the lone sense of hearing among the five senses described by Aristotle.

Shakespeare is telling us to listen when he writes, "O, that men's ears should be
To counsel deaf, but not to flattery!" Homeopathy succeeds in people's minds because they want to believe it, and false remedies pry people away from their money because of their egos.

I'm not sure where to go from this, but I hope it helps.

[EHocking]

A dear friend of mine is a homeopath. She knows I'm skeptical of her practice and set me to a challenge....What exactly is her challenge? It may cut through a lot of useless reading/research for you if you, initially at least, focus on exactly what she has challenged you to "prove" about the arguments against homeopathy.

my 2p.

[Miss_Kitt]

Oh, why not cut to the chase: "Magic." :duck:

There you have it. Problem of explanation solved. That is, if you think Harry Potter was a documentary.

Sorry. After 200 years of waiting for a real advance of Homeo over "orthodox" medicine to show, isn't it time to stop flogging the dead horse? :boggled:

Problem is, it's the zombie horse of homeopathy. It won't lie down. :mgbanghead


I've been looking for a new title, and "Zombie Horse of Homeopathy" is great! (Plus, I could use it as a name for my band--or maybe just an album title...)

Thanks in advance, Miss Kitt

[theMark]

I've been looking for a new title, and "Zombie Horse of Homeopathy" is great! (Plus, I could use it as a name for my band--or maybe just an album title...)

Thanks in advance, Miss Kitt

Sure, go ahead. Glad to be of help, especially since I'm making those things up as I go along. English isn't my main lingo, so I'm always happy if one of those desperate attempts at being funny does work out every once in a while :footinmou

[Toke]

Sorry. After 200 years of waiting for a real advance of Homeo over "orthodox" medicine to show, isn't it time to stop flogging the dead horse?

Think you got that the wrong way around.
200 years ago homeopaty had a real advantage over medicine, not in effect but, in lack of side effects. Things have changed some since, and will continiue to change, not to homeopatics advantage.

[theMark]

Think you got that the wrong way around.
200 years ago homeopaty had a real advantage over medicine, not in effect but, in lack of side effects. Things have changed some since, and will continue to change, not to homeopathy's advantage.

Yes, my choice of words was maybe a little too poignant for the sake of leaning toward the humorous, and not exactly historically correct.
But I do recall reading that the idea of homeopathy was controversial from the very beginning, so this might have influenced me. :)

[TraneWreck]

I was so inspired by this post that I just tried the same thing.

Cocaine is homeopathic, right?

[Toke]

But I do recall reading that the idea of homeopathy was controversial from the very beginning, so this might have influenced me.:)


Even at that time they were able to recognise some magical thinking.
No wonder it was controversial:D

I wonder how much it influenced the idea of controlled testing of medical procedures.
The fact that such obvius woo gave better results for some diseases should have made people start thinking, and evaluating their metods.

[theMark]

I wonder how much it influenced the idea of controlled testing of medical procedures.
The fact that such obvius woo gave better results for some diseases should have made people start thinking, and evaluating their metods.

If only I'd keep a list of references. Darn. "A long, long time ago, in an internet far, far away" I read that it actually WAS the dealing with Homeopathy that furthered the idea of double-blind and other revolutionary approaches over the time-tested "hit it till it works or dies" concept ;)

[TSR]

Cocaine is homeopathic, right?




Depends on how hard and how long your dealer shook you...

[Zim]

My "friend" Kim reacted with the same sort of Rage, and hatred when I confronted her with the facts about homeopathy, as though I was attacking her 3 year old baby with a Pitch Fork! Then she hung up on me, this all for her suggesting I get acupuncture to treat my symptoms related to my autism, and her insisting these such things work... insulted me.
So meow's reactions in this thread are to familiar to me!

[Miss_Kitt]

I was so inspired by this post that I just tried the same thing.

Cocaine is homeopathic, right?

Depends on who you buy it from..... ;)


ETA -- and I was beaten to the punch-line, sorry I didn't read the rest of the page before posting. :(

[Morrigan]

So water 'remembers' (how?) the substance you put into it, but it forgets all the other stuff like urine, chemical waste, smog, blood, Coca-cola, algae and dissolved tissue paper, that it has previously come into contact with? Only the substance you put into it has an effect?

That's some selective memory, there.

I can't help but wonder what the homeopaths have to say about this argument. Has there ever been a single attempt at answering this question from anyone? Other than saying "it's magic", obviously.

[theMark]

I can't help but wonder what the homeopaths have to say about this argument. Has there ever been a single attempt at answering this question from anyone? Other than saying "it's magic", obviously.

"Succussion". It's right there in Hahnemann's Organon. Hit the water bottle ten times, aiming it in north-south direction or whatever, on a piece of wood to "clear" it (like erasing those fine-powder etch-a-sketch things), then add the first drop of the preparation, repeat the hitting. <sarcasm>Swinging a dead chicken around and chanting 'ooga,ooga' with no drawers on might help, too</sarcasm>
"Like aiming a piece of steel north-south and hitting it to align the magnetism. Only with water. Sort of. Will you shut up? IT WORKS!"

Hey, what d'you expect? And that's not the weirdest there is. Did you know diluted Berlin wall is a BIG POWER in homeopathy?
http://www.biolumanetics.net/tantalus/Cases/BerlinWall.htm

Of course, in this day and age, the easiest way to make remedies is to record their resonance and copy it to another bottle of sugar pills. There are devices which do just this. Batteries not included. Sorry, couldn't find this gem of electronic waste disposal online. Maybe you'd like to wonder at this marvel of usurping actual physical terms:
http://oaks.nvg.org/re6ra14.html
It's like Twilight Zone with friendlier background colors.
:mgbanghead

[Morrigan]

Thanks. Oh yeah, that was going to be my next question: if the whole deal is about water memory, how do we end up getting solid pills? Guess I'll have to read up more on that nonsense...

[IMST]

Thanks. Oh yeah, that was going to be my next question: if the whole deal is about water memory, how do we end up getting solid pills? Guess I'll have to read up more on that nonsense...

IIRC, they mist blank pills with the preparation.

[The Whether Man]

Does water have imagination as well as memory?

[Checkmite]

undeniable evidence that water has a memory.

Next time you're thirsty, just keep in mind that water you're drinking remembers the daily biological waste products of six billion people, many of them with various horrific diseases. Drink up.

[theMark]

The one solution (dilution?) to feet problems, like ingrown toenails:

http://www.abchomeopathy.com/r.php/Mag-aust
Magnetis Polus Australis.

Yes, that's right. Diluted magnetic south pole.
If you'll excuse me, I think I need to succuss my brain... :mgbanghead

[tsig]

The one solution (dilution?) to feet problems, like ingrown toenails:

http://www.abchomeopathy.com/r.php/Mag-aust
Magnetis Polus Australis.

Yes, that's right. Diluted magnetic south pole.
If you'll excuse me, I think I need to succuss my brain... :mgbanghead

Careful with that wall or you might become a "super-genius".

[skyhand]

South pole and north pole cures and I thought the Berlin Wall cure was way out there. I checked to see how to make it just in case I have foot problems and its also good for the eye. It's fairly easy to make as long as I have the right end of the magnet pointed at a stream of water. I'm not sure what would happen with the north side. It could mess me up bad. This cure goes all the way back to the founder in the 1830's. I didn't realize that he was into magnetic cures. With a little reading it seems that he published over 50 pages about the use of magnets. No wonder if you are going to properly commit suicide strict rules must be followed or you might change the remedy in some way. Getting to close to the TV by either you or the remedy might mess things up. Homeopathy is mind blowing.

[Finn McR]

The horrid state of affairs in this cruel world has induced me to go get a glass of tap water and drink it. No, no! Don't try to stop me. I know how powerfully diluted the tap water must be! Imagine all of the substances with which the water must have come in contact before being diluted!! I know that drinking a glass of tap water must be the end of me, homeopathy tells me so.

On the other hand... maybe I can have a couple of doses of mild homeopathic remedies at 42% by vol. alchohol?? Yeah, that's a better idea...

Finn

[skyhand]

I now know why James Bond always wanted his drink shaken not stirred. I think I'll try a delusion experiment on myself one shot to ten shaken of course.

[Z]

I'll join you in a few of those shots... I need some alcohol-based diluted preparations...s

[Telaynay's G'son]

I'm very skeptical of modern medicine as well.

Not of medicine itself rather, our current infrastructure of medicine.

Observe the litany of side effects versus the "benefits" of the prescription meds being pimped in the evening news advertisements. ~8:1 side effects to benefit doesn't sound like good odds especially when the drug being touted is designed to only alleviate symptoms (read: annuity for the pharma company) and not really cure anything.

Was it Voltaire? ~"The art of medicine is amusing the patient while nature cures the illness."

[Ashles]

I'm very skeptical of modern medicine as well.

Not of medicine itself rather, our current infrastructure of medicine.

Observe the litany of side effects versus the "benefits" of the prescription meds being pimped in the evening news advertisements. ~8:1 side effects to benefit doesn't sound like good odds especially when the drug being touted is designed to only alleviate symptoms (read: annuity for the pharma company) and not really cure anything.

Was it Voltaire? ~"The art of medicine is amusing the patient while nature cures the illness."
I assume you won't be going to a doctor then if you have a serious illness?

[Telaynay's G'son]

I assume you won't be going to a doctor then if you have a serious illness?

In the mid-seventies there was a hospital physicians' strike (of sorts) in LA county wherein they declared only life-threatening trauma cases would be treated at the ER's.

During this time period the death rate dropped by ~one-third.

As a cancer survivor, I am not anti-medicine and do have confidence in the physicians I'm seeing as they possess the quality of common sense which compliments their professional background.

Perhaps I erred in not adequately conveying the intended sarcasm when originally commenting upon the business of modern medicine...mea culpa.

[drapier]

In the mid-seventies there was a hospital physicians' strike (of sorts) in LA county wherein they declared only life-threatening trauma cases would be treated at the ER's.

During this time period the death rate dropped by ~one-third.



Evidence?

[Telaynay's G'son]

Evidence?

It happened ~03-07/1976.

If it's that critical to your thinking please by all means, go look it up.

[Telaynay's G'son]

Evidence?


On second thought, maybe this will be helpful.

Eighty-eight fatalities among 2,171
patients transferred during the strike were analyzed; a
Case Attributable Mortality Probability generated on
21 cases selected for final review by a five-physician
multispecialist panel indicated that 29 per cent of the
Attributable Mortality could be ascribed to the strike
itself and 71 per cent to ongoing "patient dumping"
from private sector to County hospitals.

http://www.mumbai-central.com/nukkad/mar2009/msg00646.html

[Telaynay's G'son]

Evidence?

Sorry, missed this...

"Another study that analyzed the effect of seven hospital strikes also
found that deaths came down during the strike period. The abstract of
that study is given below—

[paximperium]

You must have missed this "little fact" in your little linky.

In simple words, we may explain the apparent anomaly as follows:

1—There is no real paradox. What happens is that those patients who
need elective surgery are not operated during the strike period. Some
of them would obviously have died during or soon after surgery and
such deaths are avoided during the strike period.

2— Strikes never occur in all hospitals at a time. Even when some
hospitals are on strike, some staff there is still available to take
care of serious patients. What happens during strike is this:

a:Patient care efforts by the staff still available in the hospital
are focusedupon serious patients;

b: Serious patients are transferred to other hospitals not on strike.

3—Ambulatory patient care to patients through other existing avenues
is not affected by the hospital strike.

4—In spite of the above, it has been demonstrated that there was
higher mortality in hospitalized patients during the strike period.

[Telaynay's G'son]

You must have missed this "little fact" in your little linky.

I view that as CYA for the institution more than empirical evidence.

What is your take on this...


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/14/earlyshow/contributors/emilysenay/main680009.shtml

[Telaynay's G'son]

Just to show risk/benefit possibilities...


http://www.cleanyourhands.org/bibliography.htm

http://www.wyeth.com/hcp/tygacil/infectiousdisease?WT.mc_ID=706A5E73-C041-4975-8B08-B5DA6F2A2391&WT.srch=1&WT.mc_ev=click

http://www.hospitalinfection.org/?gclid=CLKruLLHzZkCFSMgDQodBkIbtw

[paximperium]

I view that as CYA for the institution more than empirical evidence.
Sure it is :rolleyes: Even when the reasoning is completely valid and why your conclusions are invalid.

What is your take on this...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/14/earlyshow/contributors/emilysenay/main680009.shtml
It is true. Hospital infections are a major problem and kills people hence the significant drive to decrease it using science and evidence.

What about it? How does this support your anti-medicine nonsense?

[paximperium]

Just to show risk/benefit possibilities...


http://www.cleanyourhands.org/bibliography.htm

http://www.wyeth.com/hcp/tygacil/infectiousdisease?WT.mc_ID=706A5E73-C041-4975-8B08-B5DA6F2A2391&WT.srch=1&WT.mc_ev=click

http://www.hospitalinfection.org/?gclid=CLKruLLHzZkCFSMgDQodBkIbtw
Thanks for sharing the facts about hospital acquired infections.
Yeah...so?

[Telaynay's G'son]

You assume I'm anti-medicine...wrong.

This started out as a request to validate a statement made in my original post.

It's regrettable you take humbrage at someone pointing out some of the "warts" in modern medicine.

Is it nonsense when people die of otherwise preventable medical situations such as hospital infections?

Are hospitals somewhat dangerous places due to these factors?

How many people die from homeopathic treatment each year?

Maybe, we need to look at plan "C"?

[Ashles]

You assume I'm anti-medicine...wrong.

This started out as a request to validate a statement made in my original post.

It's regrettable you take humbrage at someone pointing out some of the "warts" in modern medicine.
You haven't actually pointed anything out yet, except for a statistic that actually demonstrated the opposite of what you were implying.

Is it nonsense when people die of otherwise preventable medical situations such as hospital infections?
And that's why hospitals endeavour to reduce such infections.

Are hospitals somewhat dangerous places due to these factors?
Hospitals are filled with very sick people who are more prone to infection and the effects of infection. And people who are very ill/injured some of whom are going to diw no matter what is done to help them.
This doesn't make them a 'dangerous' place, it makes them a place where people who are at risk are gathered.

This is such a stupid argument - people die in hospitals so they must be dangerous?
I know, let's take sick people to remote fields - hardly anyone dies in those.

How many people die from homeopathic treatment each year?
Evn more ridiculous. How many people die from stroking a rabbit's foot each year?
Is that your best defense of homeopathy? That it does nothing?

Maybe, we need to look at plan "C"?
No thanks - using real medicine is a fine plan for most of us.

You say you are not anti-medicine and then post all that?
It's like someone starting a sentence with "I'm not racist but..." and then demonstrating exactly the opposite.

[Telaynay's G'son]

You haven't actually pointed anything out yet, except for a statistic that actually demonstrated the opposite of what you were implying.

The death rate dropped (during the time period mentioned) as was stated and despite the rationalizations given does it give pause to wonder about one's health safety in such environments?

And that's why hospitals endeavour to reduce such infections.

As well they should being the culprit in the first place.


Hospitals are filled with very sick people who are more prone to infection and the effects of infection. And people who are very ill/injured some of whom are going to diw no matter what is done to help them.
This doesn't make them a 'dangerous' place, it makes them a place where people who are at risk are gathered.

So, compounding the problem...is no problem?

This is such a stupid argument - people die in hospitals so they must be dangerous?
I know, let's take sick people to remote fields - hardly anyone dies in those.

IMHO, with that comment the only "remote field" you're in may well be left field.


Evn more ridiculous. How many people die from stroking a rabbit's foot each year?
Is that your best defense of homeopathy? That it does nothing?

I asked a simple question...how is that defending homeopathy?


No thanks - using real medicine is a fine plan for most of us.

What is "real" medicine to you may be barbaric to others especially in a different time/place as what was the state of medicine say 100 years ago..100 years from now?

You say you are not anti-medicine and then post all that?
It's like someone starting a sentence with "I'm not racist but..." and then demonstrating exactly the opposite.

Starting to label people is usually the first sign you've ceded the high ground.

I'm no expert so please bear with my simple questions.

[Ashles]

You haven't actually pointed anything out yet, except for a statistic that actually demonstrated the opposite of what you were implying.

The death rate dropped (during the time period mentioned) as was stated and despite the rationalizations given does it give pause to wonder about one's health safety in such environments?

I like the way you kind of just dismiss 'the rationalizations' as if they don't exist.
If you are seriously ill and choose not to go to a hospital do you think you will be better without medical treatment?

And that's why hospitals endeavour to reduce such infections.

As well they should being the culprit in the first place.

Wow, so now hospitals actually cause infections?
And you claim to be not anti-medicine?

Hospitals are filled with very sick people who are more prone to infection and the effects of infection. And people who are very ill/injured some of whom are going to diw no matter what is done to help them.
This doesn't make them a 'dangerous' place, it makes them a place where people who are at risk are gathered.

So, compounding the problem...is no problem?

How are they 'compounding the problem'? More people recover with the existence of hospitals than they have in the past without them.
Or are you going to dispute that too?
Are we actually going to have to explain to you that if you are seriously ill/injured it is better to go to a hospital than... not to go to a hospital?

This is such a stupid argument - people die in hospitals so they must be dangerous?
I know, let's take sick people to remote fields - hardly anyone dies in those.

IMHO, with that comment the only "remote field" you're in may well be left field.

Er, it's your argument. You are implying a direct causal relationship between areas where peole die and them being 'dangerous'.
Witty bon mots aside are you changing your argument then?

Evn more ridiculous. How many people die from stroking a rabbit's foot each year?
Is that your best defense of homeopathy? That it does nothing?

I asked a simple question...how is that defending homeopathy?

Please look up the word 'disingenuous'.
The implication was very clear in your qurestion that homeopathy's lack of harm was something to be considered in its favour relative to how 'dangerous' you perceive modern healthcare to be.

No thanks - using real medicine is a fine plan for most of us.

What is "real" medicine to you may be barbaric to others especially in a different time/place as what was the state of medicine say 100 years ago..100 years from now?

Oh I see - you are recommending that instead of dangerous modern medicine we should use medicine from the future instead?
Well why didn't you say.

You say you are not anti-medicine and then post all that?
It's like someone starting a sentence with "I'm not racist but..." and then demonstrating exactly the opposite.

Starting to label people is usually the first sign you've ceded the high ground.
Well we'll treat this as one of the exceptions then.

[paximperium]

I'm no expert so please bear with my simple questions.
"The death rate dropped (during the time period mentioned) as was stated and despite the rationalizations given does it give pause to wonder about one's health safety in such environments?"
Yes it did for the reasons already mentioned. When doctors are on strike, sick patients get transferred out and no surgeries get done.

As well they should being the culprit in the first place.
That would be the bacteria that live in a place where antibiotics are used and sick people stay.

So, compounding the problem...is no problem?
What don't you get about sick people are more prone to being sick.

IMHO, with that comment the only "remote field" you're in may well be left field.
Wow...witty.

I asked a simple question...how is that defending homeopathy?
It is called False Equivocation. Look it up under Logical Fallacies.

What is "real" medicine to you may be barbaric to others especially in a different time/place as what was the state of medicine say 100 years ago..100 years from now?
So? It is the best we have. What do you want to do? Nothing? Prayer? Magic?

[sphenisc]

I've got a similar quote recorded as :"Two percent of the people think; three percent of the people think they think; and ninety-five percent of the people would rather die than think." --George Bernard Shaw

Either the people who think, don't think they think, or that only makes 98%.

[Telaynay's G'son]

"The death rate dropped (during the time period mentioned) as was stated and despite the rationalizations given does it give pause to wonder about one's health safety in such environments?"
Yes it did for the reasons already mentioned. When doctors are on strike, sick patients get transferred out and no surgeries get done.

Are you saying that was the only reason for the drop?

As well they should being the culprit in the first place.
That would be the bacteria that live in a place where antibiotics are used and sick people stay.

Bacteria are everywhere the good ones and the bad ones. The question is (again) how much culpability do hospitals bear for propagating the bad ones.

So, compounding the problem...is no problem?
What don't you get about sick people are more prone to being sick.

Patient goes in for hernia surgery, comes out with a stiched up hernia and Hepatitis C...how much was of the cause (of the infection) was the hernia?

IMHO, with that comment the only "remote field" you're in may well be left field.
Wow...witty.

Neither of us should quit the day job.

I asked a simple question...how is that defending homeopathy?
It is called False Equivocation. Look it up under Logical Fallacies.

My fault, I thought it was asking somewhat pointed questions of those firmly rooted to a belief and therefore belligerent to any dissension...otherwise known as heresy.

What is "real" medicine to you may be barbaric to others especially in a different time/place as what was the state of medicine say 100 years ago..100 years from now?
So? It is the best we have. What do you want to do? Nothing? Prayer? Magic?

Perhaps, a definition of "real" medicine should incorporate what we now know to be "real" as well as what may become "real" in the future so as not to turn a jaundiced eye to everything outside a known paradigm?


Not meant to be confrontational just a simple person and his simple questions.

[Rolfe]

It would be nice if the simple person learned to use the quote function properly. Just saying.

You may not realise it, but anything you type yourself inside an existing quote box will not be quoted if someone clicks on the "quote this post" button.

Rolfe.

[Telaynay's G'son]

I like the way you kind of just dismiss 'the rationalizations' as if they don't exist.

Kinda like the way you dismiss the rationalizations for the rationalizations?

If you are seriously ill and choose not to go to a hospital do you think you will be better without medical treatment?

I think you have to account for the risks of being there along with the possible benefits and make a decision based thereupon.


Wow, so now hospitals actually cause infections?
And you claim to be not anti-medicine?

And you claim they do not cause them?


How are they 'compounding the problem'? More people recover with the existence of hospitals than they have in the past without them.
Or are you going to dispute that too?

The evidence card please.

Are we actually going to have to explain to you that if you are seriously ill/injured it is better to go to a hospital than... not to go to a hospital?

I've been seriously injured and then admitted to the hospital and thankfully was discharged w/o bringing anything else home. Statistics, luck or whatever, I'm grateful.


Er, it's your argument. You are implying a direct causal relationship between areas where peole die and them being 'dangerous'.
Witty bon mots aside are you changing your argument then?

I think you're trying to insert words where they aren't appropriate for if ~90K people die each year of infections caused while hospitalized isn't there some implication of risk or do you totally dismiss such over the perceived benefits of hospitalization?


Please look up the word 'disingenuous'.
The implication was very clear in your qurestion that homeopathy's lack of harm was something to be considered in its favour relative to how 'dangerous' you perceive modern healthcare to be.

Look up the word "inquisitive" and then "hidebound".


Oh I see - you are recommending that instead of dangerous modern medicine we should use medicine from the future instead?
Well why didn't you say.

I'm asking should the hazards of modern medicine be weighed against the benefits.


Well we'll treat this as one of the exceptions then. :(

Should it be such a crime to question everything?

[Telaynay's G'son]

It would be nice if the simple person learned to use the quote function properly. Just saying.

You may not realise it, but anything you type yourself inside an existing quote box will not be quoted if someone clicks on the "quote this post" button.

Rolfe.

Just trying to reduce the bandwidth being used but thanks for the advice.

[Toke]

I don´t see what is so controversial about infection risk in hospitals*.

They are full of ill people and antibiotics, cleaning is not perfect, so of course there is greater risk of nasty infections than outside the hospital.
The patients are still better off than if they stayed at home without hospital care.

*apart from the occational press outrage on cleaning quality.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper
So water 'remembers' (how?) the substance you put into it, but it forgets all the other stuff like urine, chemical waste, smog, blood, Coca-cola, algae and dissolved tissue paper, that it has previously come into contact with? Only the substance you put into it has an effect?

That's some selective memory, there.
I can't help but wonder what the homeopaths have to say about this argument. Has there ever been a single attempt at answering this question from anyone? Other than saying "it's magic", obviously.

No believers have ever answered this question to my satsfaction.They usually avoid it,and I'll bet that meow will avoid it like the plague.

[skyhand]

Suicide attempt failed after taking 50x the dosage. Reading 6 pages I find no way yet that this can be done. The current exchange of how bad evidence based medicine I've seen before. Most of the time it comes up after a homeopath has failed to present any evidence that can stand up. It's often presented with anecdotes and how safe homeopathy is. Colored type is very common. This tactic is distracting from the question at hand.

If suicide is possible I would like to hear about the conditions necessary for this to happen. If homeopathic remedies have some action, it seems like these conditions should be known to keep accidental injury from happening. I would hate to being driving or operating machinery and pass out. Is it even possible to be effected to a point where reaction time or motor skills can effected enough to be measured? If I took too much and decided to change my mind and went into the ER, could they call poison control and get an answer? Could they be professional and not fall down laughing?

[Rolfe]

Just trying to reduce the bandwidth being used but thanks for the advice.


And how does that reduce the bandwidth usage by any noticeable amount?

Rolfe.

[paximperium]

Are you saying that was the only reason for the drop?Nope but it is one of the primary reasons. There are other reasons that are on that little list above.

Bacteria are everywhere the good ones and the bad ones. The question is (again) how much culpability do hospitals bear for propagating the bad ones.More than common folk for using antiseptic toilet cleaners and less than lifestock farming's massive use of antibiotics.

Patient goes in for hernia surgery, comes out with a stiched up hernia and Hepatitis C...how much was of the cause (of the infection) was the hernia?Depends, was the hernia infected?Ruptured? Bleeding?.
You must have missed the part where the hernia is causing pain, strangulated, infection etc etc etc

My fault, I thought it was asking somewhat pointed questions of those firmly rooted to a belief and therefore belligerent to any dissension...otherwise known as heresy.Look up Poisoning the well fallacy as well. It just shows how disingenuous you are in your "questions". There is nothing open or inquisitive at all in your "questions".

Perhaps, a definition of "real" medicine should incorporate what we now know to be "real" as well as what may become "real" in the future so as not to turn a jaundiced eye to everything outside a known paradigm?
Real medicine are things that work. Things that don't work don't get to be called medicine. Sounds simple doesn't it?
So what "Not-real" medicine are YOU pushing or are you still playing coy?

[Rolfe]

.... less than lifestock farming's massive use of antibiotics.


Evidence?TM

Rolfe.

[Mojo]

I'm asking should the hazards of modern medicine be weighed against the benefits.


They are.

[paximperium]

Evidence?TM

Rolfe.
A little too much hyperbole and I overstated my position but MRSA is believed to have acquired its immunity from lifestock.

GAO Report on Antibiotic Resistance:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04490.pdf

[eirik]

And how does that reduce the bandwidth usage by any noticeable amount?

Rolfe.

Easy. If one accidentally was to post a single quotation mark on the entire internet and someone accidentally succussed it, the dilution would be so strong that it would end up in a computer apocalypse. When humans are dead by robots, there IS no bandwidth. OK?! Didn't you watch Terminator?

And as for this thread, I support the ones who says we should use future medicine. Why haven't anyone thought of this before? They were so St00pid back in the days. All we have to do is use the medicines not proven yet, but that we KNOW will eventually be proven effective. We need is a time machine. Can someone PM a scientist? We need to get working on this fast. People are dying!

Think of what we could have avoided if they had used our medicine a thousand years ago. No, come to think of it, they would just have infections and die. Maybe ten thousand years from now? Still a tad barbaric, people are appearantly still dying in year 12 000. Well, anything but THIS.

But if we jump in time to learn future medicine in stead of developing it, isn't that a paradox? Where does the future guys get their knowledge from? What about the space/time continuum? Will it rip? Gaaah!!

end of derail

[Rolfe]

:D

A little too much hyperbole and I overstated my position but MRSA is believed to have acquired its immunity from lifestock.

GAO Report on Antibiotic Resistance:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04490.pdf


One interesting thing I notice is that the vast majority of isolates I look at from farm animals are sensitive to everything under the sun, and the antibiotics vets were using when I was an undergraduate are still stock-in-trade 35 years later.

Also, the bacterial species which infect animals tend to be different, or different strains, from the human pathogens. Antibiotic resistance originating from veterinary treatment tends to be a problem for veterinary patients, and most antibiotic resistance seen in human pathogens is traceable to use of antibiotics in man. No, I don''t know where that reference is, sorry.

No doubt there are examples, and of course resistance once acquired by one strain may pass to another. But the blanket "it's all the fault of all these gallons of antibiotics that vets pump into farm animals every day" is a bit of an overstatement. Prophylactic antibiotic use is mainly confined to antibiotics with little vital therapeutic role, and nowadays is used as sparingly as possible. Therapeutic use of antibiotics follows the same rules as in man, and should be no more likely to lead to resistance.

Rolfe.

[Toke]

"it's all the fault of all these gallons of antibiotics that vets pump into farm animals every day"

I throught it was the antibiotic used in the fodder.
The growth enchancer stuff.

To mee that looks like the perfect way to breed multiresistant bacteria.
Like the salmonella in chicken. Was it E104 or something like that.

[arthwollipot]

Observe the litany of side effects versus the "benefits" of the prescription meds being pimped in the evening news advertisements. ~8:1 side effects to benefit doesn't sound like good odds especially when the drug being touted is designed to only alleviate symptoms (read: annuity for the pharma company) and not really cure anything.You do realise that the "Cheating Death" segment on The Colbert Report is parody, right?

[Checkmite]

Observe the litany of side effects versus the "benefits" of the prescription meds being pimped in the evening news advertisements. ~8:1 side effects to benefit doesn't sound like good odds especially when the drug being touted is designed to only alleviate symptoms (read: annuity for the pharma company) and not really cure anything.

Was it Voltaire? ~"The art of medicine is amusing the patient while nature cures the illness."

What you observe during drug advertisements is the result of Federal law that requires any ill effects experienced by trial subjects to be reported, whether they were necessarily caused by the drug in question or not. If a drug for arthritis pain is tested on 200 people and 5 of them happen to catch a cold during the trial period, the drug companies must list the symptoms of the colds (headache, dizziness, nausea and vomiting) as possible side effects of the drug.

[Mojo]

Just trying to reduce the bandwidth being used but thanks for the advice.


The forum's bandwidth became a preoccupation of yrreg's recently as well.

[arthwollipot]

The forum's bandwidth became a preoccupation of yrreg's recently as well.Yeah, but Telaynay is a lot more coherent than yrreg has ever been.

[Kuko 4000]

What you observe during drug advertisements is the result of Federal law that requires any ill effects experienced by trial subjects to be reported, whether they were necessarily caused by the drug in question or not. If a drug for arthritis pain is tested on 200 people and 5 of them happen to catch a cold during the trial period, the drug companies must list the symptoms of the colds (headache, dizziness, nausea and vomiting) as possible side effects of the drug.


This is very interesting and something that most people are probably not aware of. Could you give me a link for this info, thanks!

[EHocking]

From personal anecdote only - the advertising of drugs seems to be an American thing (especially) and is quite overwhelming (and amusing) for non-Merkins (such as Brits and Aussies) to witness first hand. It seems to us (me) that everyone in Merka has a "syndrome" from these ads. Instead of taking an antacid (or eating less), in Merka you're persuaded that you have something called "Acid reflux syndrome" and by taking a purple pill daily you will be cured. That in the first 15secs of the ad, the next 45secs are taken up with the disclaimers.

All that 'cos you occasionally get indigestion. A number of colleagues, much healthier and younger than myself, have developed such "syndromes" since moving to Merka and are on a number of drug regimes to counter.

I'd laugh if it weren't so saddening.

[Tapio]

A week ago I had vasectomy (which was the first surgical operation ever done to me). From the first meeting with a doctor to give me a referral, to the interview by a nurse at the hospital, to the time I took a pill for the pain at home, I've been able to know even the most rare and extreme side effects just by asking or reading. Also, at every point of the procedure I've been reminded to contact a doctor if any other significant side effect (than the ones already known of) occures.

I thank the system.

[paximperium]

From personal anecdote only - the advertising of drugs seems to be an American thing (especially) and is quite overwhelming (and amusing) for non-Merkins (such as Brits and Aussies) to witness first hand. It seems to us (me) that everyone in Merka has a "syndrome" from these ads. Instead of taking an antacid (or eating less), in Merka you're persuaded that you have something called "Acid reflux syndrome" and by taking a purple pill daily you will be cured. That in the first 15secs of the ad, the next 45secs are taken up with the disclaimers.
Uh Gastro-Esophageal Reflux Syndrome is a real illness that has bad outcomes.

All that 'cos you occasionally get indigestion. A number of colleagues, much healthier and younger than myself, have developed such "syndromes" since moving to Merka and are on a number of drug regimes to counter.
Because it is actually diagnosed and recognized here and not ignored?

[EHocking]

Uh Gastro-Esophageal Reflux Syndrome is a real illness that has bad outcomes.Oh, I agree - but most of us merely have occasional heartburn, usually from overeating.
Because it is actually diagnosed and recognized here and not ignored?We weren't talking about diagnosis by a doctor, but over self-medication directly caused by scaremongering drug ads.

I merely commented, following another poster, that these ads are prevalent in the US. I do wonder if the prevalence of the "syndrome" is a more a direct cause of the advertising than actual diagnoses by doctors.

This is only one of many "syndromes" that these sorts of ads in the US use to peddle their product.

The point I was making was that these ads play on the fact that everyone now and then gets heartburn - and then make a scary statement such as yours "GERDS is a chronic disease!" - and then sells you some expensive drugs that are, for the most part, unneccessary.

Occassional heartburn is no biggie, constant heartburn requires some attention, but a simple lifestyle change may be all that's necessary.
Instead, I believe, because of these ads the US public rely on unnecessary medication to "prevent" a "syndrome" that they may not actually have.

It's hardly a better or more honest approach to marketing their product than some of the claims of sCAM "medicine".

I recognise that my anecdote regarding my work colleagues' sudden development of 2 or 3 such "syndromes" since moving to the US *might* be down to better education or medical diagnosis - but the thing is, I have regular medicals to the same standards as theirs for work, yet don't appear to have any sign of these "syndromes" at all.

[nescafe]

Occassional heartburn is no biggie, constant heartburn requires some attention, but a simple lifestyle change may be all that's necessary.
Instead, I believe, because of these ads the US public rely on unnecessary medication to "prevent" a "syndrome" that they may not actually have.

"Lifestyle changes" are unAmerican, evil, and possibly Communist. Abusing yet another drug*, however, is your God-given constitutionally protected right.

*Unless the drug is illegal, of course. Then you are a filthy hippie or a fine, upstanding businessman.

[/sarcasm]

[paximperium]

"Lifestyle changes" are unAmerican, evil, and possibly Communist. Abusing yet another drug*, however, is your God-given constitutionally protected right.

*Unless the drug is illegal, of course. Then you are a filthy hippie or a fine, upstanding businessman.

[/sarcasm]
I completely agree, drinking coffee and eating sticks of butter is our GOD given right...oh it was sarcasm...nevermind.

[Telaynay's G'son]

Contrary to the assertion of one individual, I am not pushing any type of alternative medicine, walking on coals, snake handling or any other esoteric lifestyle.

What I am saying is a person should consider the risk/benefit of any medical procedure and make a personal decision thereon rather than blindly trust the god of medical science or any other god of _____, for that matter.

My alleged disingenuity charge is likely more a reactionary response rather than one actually having any basis in fact.

Don't take yourself so seriously.

[paximperium]

My alleged disingenuity charge is likely more a reactionary response rather than one actually having any basis in fact.
What I am saying is a person should consider the risk/benefit of any medical procedure and make a personal decision thereon rather than blindly trust the god of medical science or any other god of _____, for that matter.
Thanks for contradicting your own post by showing how disingenuous you are. Your point about cost-benefit of medical care is completely valid. Your hyperbole and poisoning the well fallacy is not.

[Belz...]

Is that your best defense of homeopathy? That it does nothing?

Well, it's better than something bad, isn't it ?

[Belz...]

Should it be such a crime to question everything?

For the sake of questioning ? Yes. Wasting valuable scientific effort on nonsense is borderline criminal because the energy could be used to save people's lives instead of taking them away from real medecine.

[Belz...]

Just trying to reduce the bandwidth being used but thanks for the advice.

Er.. what ?

[Belz...]

Contrary to the assertion of one individual, I am not pushing any type of alternative medicine, walking on coals, snake handling or any other esoteric lifestyle.

What I am saying is a person should consider the risk/benefit of any medical procedure and make a personal decision thereon rather than blindly trust the god of medical science or any other god of _____, for that matter.

It's interesting how you manage to say you're not something and prove that you are such a short time later.

[paximperium]

It's interesting how you manage to say you're not something and prove that you are such a short time later.
Many woo-mongerers such as homeopaths, chiro-quacks and creationist usually use this tactic. I'm assuming they're ashamed of their woo.

[tsig]

"The death rate dropped (during the time period mentioned) as was stated and despite the rationalizations given does it give pause to wonder about one's health safety in such environments?"
Yes it did for the reasons already mentioned. When doctors are on strike, sick patients get transferred out and no surgeries get done.

As well they should being the culprit in the first place.
That would be the bacteria that live in a place where antibiotics are used and sick people stay.

So, compounding the problem...is no problem?
What don't you get about sick people are more prone to being sick.

IMHO, with that comment the only "remote field" you're in may well be left field.
Wow...witty.

I asked a simple question...how is that defending homeopathy?
It is called False Equivocation. Look it up under Logical Fallacies.

What is "real" medicine to you may be barbaric to others especially in a different time/place as what was the state of medicine say 100 years ago..100 years from now?
So? It is the best we have. What do you want to do? Nothing? Prayer? Magic?

I can prove that hospitals cause sickness. Just go to the nearest hospital and you will find that the majority there are sick. QED.:D

[tsig]

Should it be such a crime to question everything?

Only when you refuse to listen to the answers. Then you are not asking questions but making stealth statements.

[Ashles]

I like the way you kind of just dismiss 'the rationalizations' as if they don't exist.

Kinda like the way you dismiss the rationalizations for the rationalizations?

Why don't you try actually adressing the rationalisations then?

If you are seriously ill and choose not to go to a hospital do you think you will be better without medical treatment?

I think you have to account for the risks of being there along with the possible benefits and make a decision based thereupon.
That didn't answer my question.

Wow, so now hospitals actually cause infections?
And you claim to be not anti-medicine?

And you claim they do not cause them?
Hospitals don't - the bacteria themselves do. Reducing their prevalence is an ongoing struggle for hospitals.

How are they 'compounding the problem'? More people recover with the existence of hospitals than they have in the past without them.
Or are you going to dispute that too?

The evidence card please.
Well let's see we can compare infant mortality rates over time, we can compare life expectancy over time, we can compare recovery rates for specific conditions over time, we can compare all these same statistics by countries - those with extensive healthcare systems versus those with hardly any.
Before I do so I would like to know if you will have the honesty to accept a trend of clear improvement from such figures, or will you simply dismiss them.
Because it's not really worth my while demonstrating such figures to someone who will simply not accept them.

Are we actually going to have to explain to you that if you are seriously ill/injured it is better to go to a hospital than... not to go to a hospital?

I've been seriously injured and then admitted to the hospital and thankfully was discharged w/o bringing anything else home. Statistics, luck or whatever, I'm grateful.
You don't sound grateful. You obviously trust the system enough to have used it when you had need. Then you make a staggeringly weak 'Statistics, luck or whatever' reference to the treatment you received and its efficacy.
Once again details are sorely lacking. What were you treated for - it should be fairly easy to get some statistics around whatever condition it is.

Er, it's your argument. You are implying a direct causal relationship between areas where peole die and them being 'dangerous'.
Witty bon mots aside are you changing your argument then?

I think you're trying to insert words where they aren't appropriate for if ~90K people die each year of infections caused while hospitalized isn't there some implication of risk or do you totally dismiss such over the perceived benefits of hospitalization?

Life expectancy has improved drastically in the last couple of hundred years thank to many improvements in medicine so your statement isn't really a useful comparison.
We cannot know how many of those people would have died from infection anyway, or from whatever it was that caused them to be hospitalised in the first place.
We can see an overall trend of improvement thanks to modern medicine of which hospitalisation is a large part.

Please look up the word 'disingenuous'.
The implication was very clear in your qurestion that homeopathy's lack of harm was something to be considered in its favour relative to how 'dangerous' you perceive modern healthcare to be.

Look up the word "inquisitive" and then "hidebound".

Please, the wide-eyed questor for justice act is not very convincing.
And it appears you are referring to yourself as "hidebound". With which I would agree.

Oh I see - you are recommending that instead of dangerous modern medicine we should use medicine from the future instead?
Well why didn't you say.

I'm asking should the hazards of modern medicine be weighed against the benefits.

Uh, yes they are. Constantly. Which is why medicine with unacceptable risks is discarded.
And why treatments with no discernable effect whatsoever (e.g. homeopathy) are not considered medicine.

Should it be such a crime to question everything?
Yes if you then ignore the answers.

Doubly so if you attempt to hide an agenda behind an unconvincing mask of "I'm just asking questions."
It is very clear you are not just asking questions. You already have your opinion on the subject and are attempting to promote it without having the intellectual honesty to state your opinion outright. Or maybe you realise that stating it outright will mean you have to back it up with evidence you do not have.

[Toke]

I can prove that hospitals cause sickness. Just go to the nearest hospital and you will find that the majority there are sick. QED.:D

Good logic:)
Two danish musicians have proved that sped limits should be abolished.
"Since roads are dangerus you should try to limit your time on the road, the best way is to speed up and get to your destination faster."

[lauwersw]

Good logic:)
Two danish musicians have proved that sped limits should be abolished.
"Since roads are dangerus you should try to limit your time on the road, the best way is to speed up and get to your destination faster."

Older people are more healthy than younger people: there are less people dying at 100 than at 80 ;)

[tsig]

Older people are more healthy than younger people: there are less people dying at 100 than at 80 ;)

No one has ever died past 130 so if you make that you will live forever!

[Mojo]

Contrary to the assertion of one individual, I am not pushing any type of alternative medicine, walking on coals, snake handling or any other esoteric lifestyle.

What I am saying is a person should consider the risk/benefit of any medical procedure and make a personal decision thereon rather than blindly trust the god of medical science or any other god of _____, for that matter.

My alleged disingenuity charge is likely more a reactionary response rather than one actually having any basis in fact.


The reason people think you're pushing alternative medicine here is that implicit in your suggestion that the risks and benefits of medical prcedures should be considered, or your "asking should the hazards of modern medicine be weighed against the benefits" is the assumption that this is not done. This is a false claim routinely made by apologists for the alternative medicine industry.

If it ducks like a quack...

[Mojo]

Good logic:)
Two danish musicians have proved that sped limits should be abolished.
"Since roads are dangerus you should try to limit your time on the road, the best way is to speed up and get to your destination faster."


Since most accidents occur within a couple of miles of home, you should also move house.

[paximperium]

The reason people think you're pushing alternative medicine here is that implicit in your suggestion that the risks and benefits of medical prcedures should be considered, or your "asking should the hazards of modern medicine be weighed against the benefits" is the assumption that this is not done. This is a false claim routinely made by apologists for the alternative medicine industry.

If it ducks like a quack...
Those suggestions are valid and very intelligent suggestions.

However, he does so as a blanket attack against medicine while never once providing anything substantive such as a fix to any of the problems. It is essentially a "Medicine is bad *wink*wink*" He is attacking medicine so that people will find an "alternative" ,more attractive.

[Blue Bubble]

Since most accidents occur within a couple of miles of home, you should also move house.

Or even better, become homeless ;)

[Mojo]

Those suggestions are valid and very intelligent suggestions.


The suggestions would be valid if the things he is suggesting weren't already done on a routine basis: in suggesting that they should be done he's implying that they aren't. Would it be valid to suggest to you that you shouldn't beat your wife?

However, he does so as a blanket attack against medicine while never once providing anything substantive such as a fix to any of the problems. It is essentially a "Medicine is bad *wink*wink*" He is attacking medicine so that people will find an "alternative" ,more attractive.


Certainly, this is what he is doing. But he is also misrepresenting what medicine does by implying that "risks" or "hazards" are not taken into consideration.