The cost of unquestioned belief

[renata]

Tomorrow is the 25th anniversary of the Jonestown mass suicide. Here are some links for those who don't know the history.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/jonestown/index_1.html?sect=8

http://www.rickross.com/groups/jonestown.html

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Jonestwn.html

I hope that it is all over, but according to various sources, there are many cults operating at any given time. We already saw the Heaven's Gate cult, and the David Koresh cult. I just want to say- yes, some beliefs are dangerous, mortally so. And some investigators like Congressman Ryan paid for it with his life. If a belief stands up to scrutiny, then investigation of it will not cost one life. A lack of it investigation, allowing dangerous beliefs to go rampant do cost lives- in religious cults, in medical claims.

And the scary thing is that there are some who think Jim Jones was framed by CIA and others for murder for Congressman Ryan and defend him even now. They defend the mass suicide as a viable choice and quote Patrick Henry. Check this website. www.jonestown.com for an example of continuing and scary delusion. Apparently, it is a webpage of Laurie Efrein Kahalas, a survivor of the People's Temple and someone who continues to believe, after everything. It compares critics to Nazis, it blames everyone: The Cult Awareness Network saying it participated in "MK Ultra" experiments, said the people who escaped and complained about the cult that sparked Ryan's visit were racist and akin to Nazis, blamed ABC, NBC, AP, NPR, CNN, Fox.

This reminds me of people who still believe Popoff, after exposes. Sometimes I wonder that even the current generation of quacks confesses or gets caught red handed, there will be a small contingent some die hard believers out there.

Just food for thought- for everyone, believer and skeptic alike. I think all of us can agree on that, no matter what side we are on. Unquestioned belief in anything is a very dangerous thing. Jonestown is of the worst demonstrations of that. It is a sad event in our history, and a sad day. Let's not forget its lessons.

[Ed]

As someone said "So many cults, so few comets"

A pity that Ryan died at Jonestown but I would encourage cultists to knock themselves off.

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

Are crab people behind cults or are cults behind crab people?!

[SteveGrenard]

I don’t think we will ever know the truth behind Jonestown but there are a lot
of theories and you have to be agnostic about a lot of them. For one thing nearly 300 children were killed. Children do not commit mass suicide, not this many any way. They were clearly murdered. Another problem is who the Jonestown “cultists” were. They were housing/welfare recipients from San Francisco, and almost all were impoverished ethnic minorities who were enticed into joining up for a better life. I think Jones was a psychopathic crook and a murderer. Period. This was all about money. He did not go down with his flock, he did not drink the poisoned brew. He was found later shot dead by one of his henchmen who came back to the States and served time here. He sent his sons to the capital to play basketabll on the day he planned all this so they survived. His plan was probably to meet up with them later, in Switzerland, where he stashed millions of his flock's social security and welfare payments. This was not a suicide cult. It was a scam and turned into the biggest mass murder of American citizens on a single day until 9/11 happened.

The following essay appears in Journal of Popular Culture 36, no. 2 (Fall 2002): 200-20 by R. Moore. Excerpt on Jonestown.

http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/Articles/conspiracy


(snipped)
On 18 November 1978, residents of the Peoples Temple agricultural project assassinated Congressman Leo Ryan, and killed four others at a remote airstrip in the northwest corner of Guyana. At their settlement a few miles away, Temple leader Jim Jones assembled more than 900 followers who then ingested a mixture of potassium cyanide and tranquilizers in a fruit punch, either voluntarily or by force.

Initial accounts were conflicting. It was not clear if weapons had been involved. The reported number of those who died kept increasing as more and more bodies were uncovered. The appearance of the dead - laid out in neat rows - raised questions about how they died. Was it suicide or was it murder? The quantity of psychoactive drugs at the settlement seemed to indicate the possibility of widespread behavioral control or modification. In addition to the sheer magnitude of the numbers, the utter incomprehensibility of parents taking their children's lives generated shock and disbelief. Skepticism thus arose concerning reports on the exact sequence of events.

At the same time, conspiracy theories about Jim Jones, about the assassination of Ryan, and about the nature of the agricultural project itself took root shortly after November 1978. Within weeks, political activist Dick Gregory claimed that CIA-FBI forces killed the people in Jonestown in order to use their bodies to smuggle heroin into the U.S. (Hall 305). In 1979 an organization sponsored by the Church of Scientology began to circulate reports that a CIA agent had been present in Jonestown at the time of the deaths (Alliance for the Preservation of Religious Liberty). In addition, Joe Holsinger, Congressman Ryan's Legislative Assistant, testified before the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on International Operations in 1980 that the CIA had a covert operation in Guyana. Those comments would later serve in part as the source for a number of conspiracy theories. A report dated 20 July 1980 by Information Services Company notes connections between the CIA and Jim Jones as well as CIA interest in Guyana politics. The document connects the Hughes-Ryan Amendment of 1974, which required prior review of CIA and National Security Council operations, with the death of one of its co-sponsors at the Port Kaituma airstrip (Information Services Company).


Excerpted from: http://www.brasscheck.com/jonestown/review.html
October 18, 1998

I just finished watching ABC's one hour special on Jonestown (one month before the 20th anniversary.) ABC spent a small fortune on it.

Maybe you saw it too.

The theme: Jim Jones' sons remember their father. "The sons of Jim Jones come face to face with the demons of their past." (No, I'm not kidding.)
What you don't know is that Kenneth Wooden, former Chicago Sun Times writer and author of "Children of Jonestown" and Nathan Landau author of "Heavenly Deceptor" spent HOURS with the producer, as did I, informing her that Jonestown had its roots in the corrupt political culture of San Francisco.
As unbelievable as this may seem to people who don't know the facts, Jones was an absolutely mainstream figure in San Francisco politics who received outspoken support from the Chronicle, the Examiner, The San Francisco Bay Guardian, Willie Brown Jr., Art Agnos, the then Chief of Police, the District Attorney - you name it, they were behind him.

In fact, anyone who opposed Jones in San Francisco during the 1970s was threatened with violence by the "church" - which in San Francisco was already an armed camp - and socially and politically ostracized.

Why?

Jones' "ministry" made a lot of money and he distributed it widely. He also contributed the services of his flock to any politician who asked for them.
Willie Brown served as a broker for these services and was responsible for Jones' appointment to the San Francisco Housing Authority Commission, a position Jones used to attract members. (This went on at the very same time official San Francisco was destroying housing in the Western Addition neighborhood and displacing hundreds of low and moderate income blacks and their businesses, all with the cooperation of Assemblyman Willie Brown.)

ABC's question: "How did one deranged man get so much power?" Their answer: "His charisma."

"Sometimes the greatest tragedies begin with just one incident."

Yeah, right.

Jones' psychosis was well known in SF. He was involved in the torture and sexual abuse of children and others. He was involved in all kinds of financial frauds including stealing social security and other government support checks from his members, the elderly, the disabled, and the young. The church would cash members' checks and these members "under the church's care" would get to sleep ten to a room, work day and night, and live on peanut butter sandwiches and the like seven days a week in exchange.

And no one in SF touched Jones. In fact, official San Francisco bent over backwards to protect him. He did eventually leave town, but only when outsiders, New West Magazine published in New York, came in and finally blew the whistle.
How did Jones and company get away scott free with hundreds of blatant criminal acts in San Francisco?

He produced money and votes. That was good enough for the likes of Willie Brown, George Moscone, Art Agnos, and others who supported him.

The ABC producer of tonight's special was briefed on all of this - it's matter of public record, not opinion - and said that the SF part of the story, long untold, was going to be featured.

It wasn't.

What happened?

I was told by author Nathan Landau that he was told that "pressure" was put on ABC management not to get into the San Francisco story and, in their typically craven way, ABC news changed their angle and delivered this evening's "bubble gum" version.

Now you know what millions of people were actively prevented from learning tonight. This was ABC's conclusion at the end of their bizarre "trip down memory lane": "We should remember and learn from the terrible loss."

I agree.

At least 287 of the people who were murdered in Guyana were children and San Francisco's "politics as usual" made it all possible. The people who warned about Jones were ignored and marginalized by official San Francisco. Twenty years later, nothing has changed here. In fact, many of the very same people involved in making the Jonestown Massacre possible are still in power.

Ken McCarthy
Brasscheck

[hgc]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
...

I think Jones was a psychopathic crook and a murderer. Period. This was all about money. He did not go down with his flock, he did not drink the poisoned brew. He was found later shot dead by one of his henchmen who came back to the States and served time here. He sent his sons to the capital to play basketabll on the day he planned all this so they survived. His plan was probably to meet up with them later, in Switzerland, where he stashed millions of his flock's social security and welfare payments.

...This sounds contraditory. Was he a psychopath, or was it all about the money? If his plan was to skip town with his sons and the money, then why did he kill everyone?

More likely he was drunk with the power of his control over the bodies and minds of a bunch of deluded followers, and couldn't resist exercizing that power to the greatest possible degree. That was a lot more important to him than grabbing the money and running away. Makes you wonder about other dangerous charlatans, such as John Edward. Is he in it just for the money, or will he eventually build an organization with which to control ever expanding aspects of his followers' lives?

[renata]

Originally posted by hgc
This sounds contraditory. Was he a psychopath, or was it all about the money? If his plan was to skip town with his sons and the money, then why did he kill everyone?

There is some evidence he was in a panic over murder of Congressman Ryan. He knew the days of the colony were numbered. There is also some uncertainty over whether he was killed by outraged survivors as he tried to skip town, or commited suicide.


More likely he was drunk with the power of his control over the bodies and minds of a bunch of deluded followers, and couldn't resist exercizing that power to the greatest possible degree. Well, that was certain. The accounts are pretty clear about that. You can still see that, very eerily in www.jamestown.com- but they are both true.

Makes you wonder about other dangerous charlatans, such as John Edward. Is he in it just for the money, or will he eventually build an organization with which to control ever expanding aspects of his followers' lives?

Don't know about JE, but his buddy Sylvia Browne is the head of her own religion, I believe. However JE and the rest of them possess exactly the qualities cult leaders have- charismatic, many devout believers believing through anything. If JE or someone like him wanted to set up some sort of a cult, it would be easy. He already is "special", has a gift, almost a prophet!

I want to say there will be no cults, no greed, no self aggrandizement. But apparently according to some estimates there are hundreds of cults operating in the US at any given time. That is just sad.

[SteveGrenard]

Psychopaths can and do covet money and power. There is nothing contradictory about it.

Some of the greatest leaders in history were what we might call whacko. Being a homocidal maniac and crook did not stop Jones from knowing what he was doing. He knew exactly what he was doing. Its just that his plan failed. The man who killed Jones by the way confessed and served time in the U.S.
He was the only person charged, tried and convicted of any crime in connection with Jonestown which is an amazing thing in itself. Of course this is not surprising when you realize you can commit murder in San Francisco and use Twinkies(tm) to get off.


A grand jury in Guyana found all the JT deaths classifiable as murder. Jones would not have killed himself. He was shot with a rifle, in the head, and the weapon was not found at his side.

I can't classify the Jonestown agricultural project as a cult of devout believers willing to die for their leader or their cause. The members were all enticed there an alleged paradise and a better life than they had on welfare in SF. Jones recruited these people. Its easy to promise people anything when they have nothing.

Terri Buford, one of Jones' staff, escaped with Mark Lane (Jones' lawyer). Buford had a photographic memory and had memorized the account numbers of Jones' Swiss bank accounts. She was a key part of Jone's plan but he didn't live to cash out. After escaping with Buford, Lane parked his two daughters across the French border from Geneva where they live till this day according to Nathan Landau, the writer who investigated Buford and Lane and their role in JT.

[Nucular]

Originally posted by hgc
This sounds contraditory. Was he a psychopath, or was it all about the money? If his plan was to skip town with his sons and the money, then why did he kill everyone?Not really contradictory - I don't know much about Jonestown, but psychopathy (http://www.psybox.com/web_dictionary/Sociopathy.htm) isn't what people often think it is (they get it mixed up with 'psychotic', which also doesn't mean what they think it does). It's characterised by a distinct lack of conscience; it's highly possible that a psychopath, having diddled all that money, would also kill all those people, if it immediately served the purpose at hand, or if he felt like it and it was practical.

I don't know if Jones was one, but I suspect there's a high proportion of cult leaders, healers, psychics, etc. who are psychopathic - as well as the conscience thing, there's also arousal-seeking behaviour and extremely low anxiety in what would be to most people stressful situations. Oh, and politicians.

[Jeff Corey]

Tecnically, the DSM-IV doesn't use the term "psychopath". The closest to what you are describing is from Axis II of the DSM.
" Antisocial personality disorder: Lack of affection for other people, tendency to manipulate other people without feeling guilty, high probability of getting into trouble with the law, low probability of keeping a job."
Now that's from the American Psychiatric Association, and many other profeesionals don't like some of the definitions, but they're stuck with it if they want to get reembursed from an insurance company.
But the "high probability of not keeping a job" probably makes that a moot point.

[SteveGrenard]

The DSM-IV notwithstanding, I think entry #1describes Jones perfectly:



psy·cho·path ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sk-pth)
n.

(1) A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.





(2) psychopath

n : someone with a sociopathic personality; a person with an antisocial personality disorder (`psychopath' was once widely used but has now been superseded by `sociopath') [syn: sociopath]

[Aussie Thinker]

I am very sympathetic for any children/innocents caught up in these nutty cults..

However I do think it does serve as a form of “evolution”.. it is probably beneficial for society in general that these idiots (the parents and adults) are removed from the gene pool.

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
Tecnically, the DSM-IV doesn't use the term "psychopath". The closest to what you are describing is from Axis II of the DSM. Yeah, there's a lot of overlap between the two classifications, though there are distinctions too; although psychopathy's not in DSM-IV I don't think it's without clinical or legal utility. I'm hoping DSM-V will be a bit clearer on the whole issue, anyway, because the cognitive elements of psychopathy seem important, so there's a gap really.

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
I am very sympathetic for any children/innocents caught up in these nutty cults..

However I do think it does serve as a form of “evolution”.. it is probably beneficial for society in general that these idiots (the parents and adults) are removed from the gene pool. Would you think that way if it was your son/daughter/sibling/friend who was unlucky enough to be in that situation? And why don't we go and kill everyone with IQ<120, give society even more of this kind of "benefit"?

I think your opinion is simplistic and worrying.

[Aussie Thinker]

Nucular…

Mehtinks your sense of humour was surgically removed.

It’s odd for a sceptic not to “get the joke”

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
Nucular…

Mehtinks your sense of humour was surgically removed.

It’s odd for a sceptic not to “get the joke” No no, have quite a flair for not "getting the joke"!

Apologies... I have heard similar arguments IRL, is all. Unless they were also joking... hmmm...

No, sadly I don't think they were.

Ahem, carry on

:i: :k:

[SteveGrenard]

If its amusing or funny examples of natural selection involving humans who eliminate themselves from the gene pool, then visit:

http://www.darwinawards.com/

Like the guy who died from a snakebite when he was kissing his pet rattlesnake on the lips.

I agree with Nuculear that this isn't very funny when it pertains to the 1000 men, women and some 300 children who were murdered at Jonestown. In order to appreciate just how non-funny it is, you have to understand that 1/3rd of the victims were children, 75% were blacks and other ethnic minorities and that these were all poor people living on wefare in SF who were scammed into joining an agricultural project for a better life. They were, they thought, being given a chance to work for it as well. When most of the poeple who were recruited saw how not good this was they were not allowed to leave and in fact were held there by armed guards as if they were in prison. So if you are saying they were stupid for thinking that Jones was offering them a better life, then so be it. Its still not funny, nor does it rise to the level of a true Darwin Award.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard: I agree with Nuculear that this isn't very funny when it pertains to the 1000 men, women and some 300 children who were murdered at Jonestown. ]
Just for the record, news reports said there were a total of 9oo men, women and children at the time.
Still a horrible tragedy.

[SteveGrenard]

Yes, no matter whether it was 900, 1000 or more, it was a horrible tragedy. But for the record....I have to add:

....press reports of 900 have been disputed as there were probably some 1,200 or so people at Jonestown. There is some question as to whether all the bodies were discovered, and we know from survivors that there were survivors (many choose to
remain anonymous) as well that the 900 figure was low. The following excerpt is from a report from Court-TV's article on the subject. This is basically why I said 1000 people (287 documented as children BTW) but I should've said about or approx 1,000 as nobody knows for sure. I should have been more by specific by actually being less specific.

The discrepancy in the numbers of dead in the first reports, and the final figure had led many to speculate that approximately five hundred people had escaped the first spate of killings and escaped into the jungle, but were then hunted down and murdered. The descriptions of witnesses to the layout of the bodies, and the fact that there were obvious signs that many of the bodies had been dragged to their final resting place, tends to contradict the ‘official’ explanation that at the first counting five hundred bodies had been concealed by the other 408 bodies."

"The official report stated that there were approximately 1100 people at “Jonestown” at the time of the massacre but other reports claim that there were closer to 1200. Of this number there were 913 dead bodies found and 167 survivors. Twenty people, if the 1100 figure is correct, are left unaccounted for. If they were the assassins, where are they now? Also unaccounted for, and never referred to in news reports, are the armed guards who were present in “Jonestown” but were free to come and go from the compound. A congressional aide may have been referring to these men in an Associated Press quote “There are 120 white, brainwashed assassins out from Jonestown, awaiting the trigger word to pick up their hit.

excerpted from:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/jonestown/connections_5.html?sect=8