I confidently assert that chiropractic is a valid health discipline

[bfsgross]

Split from: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=121214

As an MD in family practice, I confidently assert that chiropractic is a valid health dicipline that is misunderstood and everyone requires.

I refer all my allergy, asthma, ear infection, and headache cases (including children), to the chiropractic doctor (DC) near my office.

One must understand and accept that through specific vertebral adjustments, chiropractic doctors help resolve inflammation and/or stimulate the central and autonomic nervous systems, and create circulation of lymphatic tissue which carries infection fighting lymphatic tissue.

Another misunderstanding is the educational requirements of doctors of chiropractic. DC's complete on the average 300 more hours than medical students in a very similar curriculae.

In summation, chiropractors are primary care doctors that focuses their attention on the nervous system, which supplies all the vital information to every cell of the body, and instills in the patient a healthy lifestyle that leads to long standing health and wellness.

Try chiropractic. When you understand the chiropractic concept and visit a chiropractor, you will most certainly benefit.

SG. MD

[Worm]

the mind boggles.


I refer all my allergy, asthma, ear infection, and headache cases (including children), to the chiropractic doctor (DC) near my office.


and what are the outcomes like?

I confidently assert that chiropractic is a valid health dicipline that is misunderstood and everyone requires.

Unfortunately, 'asserting' things doesn't carry much weight here, you need to provide some sort of evidence. And everyone requires it? Really? Shirley you're joking....

[Mojo]

When you understand the chiropractic concept and visit a chiropractor, you will most certainly benefit.


Why is it necessary to "understand the chiropractic concept"? It either works or it doesn't.

[fls]

As an MD in family practice, I confidently assert that chiropractic is a valid health dicipline that is misunderstood and everyone requires.

I refer all my allergy, asthma, ear infection, and headache cases (including children), to the chiropractic doctor (DC) near my office.

One must understand and accept that through specific vertebral adjustments, chiropractic doctors help resolve inflammation and/or stimulate the central and autonomic nervous systems, and create circulation of lymphatic tissue which carries infection fighting lymphatic tissue.

Another misunderstanding is the educational requirements of doctors of chiropractic. DC's complete on the average 300 more hours than medical students in a very similar curriculae.

In summation, chiropractors are primary care doctors that focuses their attention on the nervous system, which supplies all the vital information to every cell of the body, and instills in the patient a healthy lifestyle that leads to long standing health and wellness.

Try chiropractic. When you understand the chiropractic concept and visit a chiropractor, you will most certainly benefit.

SG. MD

I'm guessing this is a chiropractic spammer.

Linda

[Paul]

I'm guessing this is a chiropractic spammer.For the sake of the patients I hope so.

[paximperium]

As an MD in family practice, I confidently assert that chiropractic is a valid health dicipline that is misunderstood and everyone requires.

I refer all my allergy, asthma, ear infection, and headache cases (including children), to the chiropractic doctor (DC) near my office.

One must understand and accept that through specific vertebral adjustments, chiropractic doctors help resolve inflammation and/or stimulate the central and autonomic nervous systems, and create circulation of lymphatic tissue which carries infection fighting lymphatic tissue.

Another misunderstanding is the educational requirements of doctors of chiropractic. DC's complete on the average 300 more hours than medical students in a very similar curriculae.

In summation, chiropractors are primary care doctors that focuses their attention on the nervous system, which supplies all the vital information to every cell of the body, and instills in the patient a healthy lifestyle that leads to long standing health and wellness.

Try chiropractic. When you understand the chiropractic concept and visit a chiropractor, you will most certainly benefit.

SG. MD
Same spam. Love how he co-opts an MD's reputation to push Chiropractic.

[Asolepius]

As an MD in family practice, I confidently assert that chiropractic is a valid health dicipline that is misunderstood and everyone requires.

....snipped as too boring......

Try chiropractic. When you understand the chiropractic concept and visit a chiropractor, you will most certainly benefit.

SG. MDI did try chiropractic. It didn't work. If you really are an MD, standards of English have slipped a lot at the med schools. If you are a spammer/troll, at least do your homework. The whole point of this thread is evidence, which in case you haven't noticed is not the same as assertion.

[steenkh]

I did try chiropractic. It didn't work. If you really are an MD, standards of English have slipped a lot at the med schools. If you are a spammer/troll, at least do your homework. The whole point of this thread is evidence, which in case you haven't noticed is not the same as assertion.
I also have tried chiropractic, and it worked! But that is probably not surprising since it was for pains in the back and in the legs for which there would be a fair chance that manipulation or massage would help. This was not allergy, flue, or whatever claims this "MD" claims chiropractic can cure.

However, I have understood, that an important part of the critique that Simon Singh has directed against chiropractic is not simply that it does not work, but that even if it does work, it is too dangerous to perform; at least the well-known neck manipulation can cause death or injury.

[Paul]

On the chance that you are genuine, some observations:

As an MD in family practice, I confidently assert that chiropractic is a valid health dicipline that is misunderstood and everyone requires.What qualifies you to make any such assertion, it certainly isn't an MD.


I refer all my allergy, asthma, ear infection, and headache cases (including children), to the chiropractic doctor (DC) near my office.Why would an actual, qualified, medical doctor send patients in need of genuine treatment to someone who believes that spinal manipulation can cure infection, disease and immune disorders, and, more importantly, why would you let them anywhere near the bones of children?


One must understand and accept...One must most certainly not accept any of that without evidence, do you have any?


circulation of lymphatic tissue which carries infection fighting lymphatic tissue.Even allowing for the probable typo, are you claiming that lymphatic tissue moves about the body fighting infection?


Another misunderstanding is the educational requirements of doctors of chiropractic. DC's complete on the average 300 more hours than medical students in a very similar curriculae.Now you're just making things up, or lying.

[Mojo]

And everyone requires it? Really?


It says so in the chiropractic business plan.

[paximperium]

Here's his followup post.
Hey, not only do I have the right to defend chiropractic, its my duty to point the masses to the too numerous to list "Positive" attributes of chiropractic.

The chiropractic doctor who helps me, sees 500 people per week, many of them my patients. His malpractice insurance is only $1000/year per

You, on the other hand make it obvious your time is important in tearing down the second largest group and perhaps th emost important of the primary care physicians.

A study of you, the apperatii that motivates your denegrating thought of chiropractic may be interesting to you and others.

[Freethinker]

Bull! If you are an MD and feel so strongly about this, post your name. Otherwise, I'll assume (correctly) that you are a quack chiropractor claiming to be an MD.

[Capsid]

Curriculae? Apperatii? Not a latin scholar either

[roger]

Split from: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=121214

As an MD in family practice, I confidently assert that chiropractic is a valid health dicipline that is misunderstood and everyone requires.

I refer all my allergy, asthma, ear infection, and headache cases (including children), to the chiropractic doctor (DC) near my office.

One must understand and accept that through specific vertebral adjustments, chiropractic doctors help resolve inflammation and/or stimulate the central and autonomic nervous systems, and create circulation of lymphatic tissue which carries infection fighting lymphatic tissue.

Another misunderstanding is the educational requirements of doctors of chiropractic. DC's complete on the average 300 more hours than medical students in a very similar curriculae.

In summation, chiropractors are primary care doctors that focuses their attention on the nervous system, which supplies all the vital information to every cell of the body, and instills in the patient a healthy lifestyle that leads to long standing health and wellness.

Try chiropractic. When you understand the chiropractic concept and visit a chiropractor, you will most certainly benefit.

SG. MDCite?

[Darat]

Yes it is.

[Rolfe]

Curriculae? Apperatii? Not a latin scholar either


Ouch! I hadn't noticed that. :nope:

Rolfe.

[SRW]

My chiropractor claimed my back problems were cured, coincidentally, on the day the insurance money ran out. However he did want to keep seeing me weekly for maintenance adjustments, and he wanted me to bring my wife and kids in to make sure they were healthy. I declined.

As I had no pain relief from his treatments I went to a neurologist and then to a neurosurgeon. I have been pain free for a year and a half. Titanium is IMHO much better than A neck snap for a broken vertebrae.

[bfsgross]

And you trully believed that your disbaraging remarks on chiropractic would draw their attention away from your physiotherapy MFRT?

My man, this group of "Wretch" is anti anything and everything. Run! or they'd chew you to bits and pieces before recognizing anyone or anything who/that represents truth and hope!

One more piece of advice my man: Avoid sleeping with the wretched of the wretch!

SG, MD

[Blue Wode]

bfsgross, this thread is confined to developments relating to the BCA v. Simon Singh libel case. Please continue your discussions on this thread:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=137298

Thanks.

[Paul]

The latest non-reply, from the wrong thread:

And you trully believed that your disbaraging remarks on chiropractic would draw their attention away from your physiotherapy MFRT?

My man, this group of "Wretch" is anti anything and everything. Run! or they'd chew you to bits and pieces before recognizing anyone or anything who/that represents truth and hope!

One more piece of advice my man: Avoid sleeping with the wretched of the wretch!

SG, MD

[Starthinker]

500 people a week? That's 100 people a day. Let's say he works a 10 hour day, that's 10 people per hour. One patient every six minutes. He must bill and do paperwork on weekends.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Yes it is.

How do you expect us kids to behave when you set an example like this?

:D

[BenBurch]

Even my friend the Osteopath doesn't think that Chiropractic is more than a palliative treatment that can help lower back pain... His practice does not include manipulation, and he generally practices Allopathy.

[bfsgross]

Hello everyone. My name is Dr. Arthur Walczyk. I am a gastroenterologist in NY.

The good doc here is on the "mark" with chiropractic.

I originally sought chiropractic care for a neck injury. Besides improving the biomechanics of my cervical spine, chiropractic adjustments has improved the function of both my autonomic and central nervous systems.

Since beginning chiropractic spinal adjustments I now sleep better, have fewer upper respiratory tract infections, and learned much needed information that was not provided to me in my medical training.

Before you decide to bash chiropractic, learn more on chiropractic. From here, I am certain you will not only have a different perspective on chiropractic but want to look into chiropractic and how it can improve your lives.

AW, M.D.

[bfsgross]

Hi my name is Cristina, office manager for the 500 pv/week chiropractic doctor.

Yes it is pretty busy in the office. We bill all dayLast night our new patient was a plastic surgeon. Shhe who was taking migrain medication for the past 20 years.

[Jeff Corey]

Dr. Walczyk,
Is that Fishkill, Long Beach or both?

[ElMondoHummus]

I refer all my allergy, asthma, ear infection, and headache cases (including children), to the chiropractic doctor (DC) near my office.


Bull! Why would a legit family practitioner refer away the exact issues that lay within his or her own specialty to begin with? You refer away all ear infections and headaches? By what standard do you think that is reasonable?

If you're an MD who's defending the chiropractic field, tell me how you resovle the issue of your own profession being held in low esteem by the founders and many members of that field? Do you remember what they said "MD" stands for?

Yes, I know you others in this thread have beat me to this, but I call BS as well. Unless this person is writing from a country with some pretty lax medical licensing standards, this is no Medical Doctor.

[Frinkiak7]

Last edited by bfsgross; Today at 03:32 PM. Reason: error in text

Um... you missed a few there, scooter.

[Starthinker]

Hello everyone. My name is Dr. Arthur Walczyk. I am a gastroenterologist in NY.

The good doc here is on the "mark" with chiropractic.

I originally sought chiropractic care for a neck injury. Besides improving the biomechanics of my cervical spine, chiropractic adjustments has improved the function of both my autonomic and central nervous systems.

Since beginning chiropractic spinal adjustments I now sleep better, have fewer upper respiratory tract infections, and learned much needed information that was not provided to me in my medical training.

Before you decide to bash chiropractic, learn more on chiropractic. From here, I am certain you will not only have a different perspective on chiropractic but want to look into chiropractic and how it can improve your lives.

AW, M.D.

Hi my name is Cristina, office manager for the 500 pv/week chiropractic doctor.

Yes it is pretty busy in the office. We bill all dayLast night our new patient was a plastic surgeon. Shhe who was taking migrain medication for the past 20 years.

And you're schizophrenic as well.

[Pixel42]

I originally sought chiropractic care for a neck injury. Besides improving the biomechanics of my cervical spine, chiropractic adjustments has improved the function of both my autonomic and central nervous systems.

Since beginning chiropractic spinal adjustments I now sleep better, have fewer upper respiratory tract infections
If you are really a doctor you will know that anecdotal evidence such as this is worthless when trying to establish whether a treatment is efficacious, because of the placebo effect etc. Double blind, placebo controlled clinical trials are essential before reliable conclusions can be drawn. So before referring patients for chiropractic treatment for asthma, earache and all the other things you listed you must - again, if you are really a doctor - have read peer reviewed papers describing such trials which established its effectiveness for such illnesses. Please cite them.

[ElMondoHummus]

I'm guessing this is a chiropractic spammer.

Linda

Agreed.

As a layman, am I correct in saying that ear aches or headaches at least initially fall under the Family Practice umbrella? And if further specialist care is warranted, the best practice standard says the patient should either be referred to an ENT (in the case of the ear aches) or other relevant specialty that applies (say, a neurologist if actual brain injury or dysfunction is suspected for a headache, or an opthalmologist if the headache's cause is suspected to be vision-related)?

Also: Are you aware of any state (or in Canada, province) medical boards that actually list chiropractors as a legitimate option in referrals? To the best of my knowledge, the (US) state I live in does not; there's a whole separate "Chiropracty" board, and the two don't seem to interact.

[godless dave]

How would better circulation of lymphatic tissue help asthma? Most asthma isn't caused by an infection.

[Paul]

Dr. Walczyk,
Is that Fishkill, Long Beach or both?According to Medicare it's Fishkill, Pleasant Valley and Poughkeepsie.

Apparently, being certified in internal medicine having a digestive disease practice makes you qualified in chiropractic apologetics.

[RoboTimbo]

SG. MD
Hello everyone. My name is Dr. Arthur Walczyk. I am a gastroenterologist in NY.

AW, M.D.Hi my name is Cristina, office manager for the 500 pv/week chiropractic doctor.

Shenanigans

[Mojo]

Were those really all posted from the same account, or have they been merged?

[Rolfe]

I'm guessing he may be quoting from a list of testimonials somewhere, but it's odd behaviour. And if he doesn't attribute his quotes so as to avoid the impression of multiple usage of one account, the Admins might get a bit antsy about it.

ETA: Oh wait, they already did (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=137330). Suspended ten minutes ago.

Rolfe.

[paximperium]

I believe he has been suspended.

[Rolfe]

Beat you! :p

Rolfe.

[godless dave]

And you're schizophrenic as well.

Derail:

For the one million, three hundred twenty-eight thousand, four hundred and twelfth time, schizophrenia does not involve multiple personalities.

This public service message brought to you by the committee for accuracy in armchair psychiatry.

[Jeff Corey]

I suppose we could get in touch with Dr. Walczyk in Fishkill or Long Beach by email to see if he really authored that glowing testimonial to chiroquacktic.

[athon]

You know, if there ever was anything to any of these alternative medicines, they aren't helped by their advocates.

I almost feel sorry for the field - it's as if it's full of kids wanting to play grown-ups, and failing miserably.

Athon

[kellyb]

Well that was just sad.

[Freethinker]

Provide some evidence that you are an MD.

[JJM]

bfsgross has been reinstated.

[JJM]

I suppose we could get in touch with Dr. Walczyk in Fishkill or Long Beach by email to see if he really authored that glowing testimonial to chiroquacktic.That would be interesting; but I don't want a quack getting my e-mail address. The last time that happened, it was annoying until I discovered the way to ban mail from a particular sender.

[Belz...]

As an MD in family practice, I confidently assert that chiropractic is a valid health dicipline that is misunderstood and everyone requires.

As a skeptic, I confidently assert that it is not. Certainly not on your word. Also, In my personal experience, all Chiro does is make you feel better for a few minutes. Then it's right back where you started.

I refer all my allergy, asthma, ear infection, and headache cases (including children), to the chiropractic doctor (DC) near my office.

Pray tell, how do you cure asthma by expelling the air between two bones so they go "crack" ?

Try chiropractic. When you understand the chiropractic concept and visit a chiropractor, you will most certainly benefit.

Why don't you simply explain this concept, while you're here ?

[godless dave]

Shenanigans

http://www.truthspeaker.org/img/shenanigans.jpg


Note to mods: I own the site I just hotlinked to.

[JJM]

That would be interesting; but I don't want a quack getting my e-mail address. The last time that happened, it was annoying until I discovered the way to ban mail from a particular sender.Anyone who has a "cover" could write "Some idiot, using your name, has written .... "

Just saying.

[Miss_Kitt]

Yes, I wonder if the doctor really wants his prospective patients and relevent licensing entities to be able to Google and find that "he" is promoting this quackery??

Most intriguing, MK

[Graham Maynard]

Chiropractic will continue destroying itself until exponents formally stop jerking cranial anatomy in order to *adjust* (subluxated) neck vertebrae.

Human skeletal anatomy ensures that unilateral axial tugs of the cranium wrt to the thorax become mechanically transformed into a posterior rotational (scissoring) motion in the vertebral artery region, this being due to a translation of forces acting upon neck vertebrae (especially C2) which are bound by extremely strong longitudinal and vertical ligaments at their fronts.
This is a purely mechanical action.

Re the article;- Worldwideweb.articlesbase.com/health-articles/is-chiropractic-treatment-dangerous-222924.html
and -
2. Only 19 deaths have been attributed to Chiropractic treatment worldwide over the latest 65 years studied (1934-1999). In fact, the risk of "serious injury" from anti-inflammatory medication including Aspirin and Advil is 400 times greater than from manipulation.

To heck with Asprin and Advil, that is irrelevent - as any lawyer must point out !

Is anyone going to take this author to Court for making false statement?
Maybe by Death he means only *Immediate Death*, and not one which is the result of protracted suffering from Chiropractic induced cranio-spinal injury.

If figures were not collected Worldwide then such claims should NOT be published by anyone !

See-
Worldwideweb.neck911usa.com/vict_deta.htm?id=2585751.56094907

19 deaths Worldwide - phooey !

Cheers ............ Graham.

PS. Seems I am not allowed to post full links.

[Rolfe]

Anybody who wants to know how lethal that can be just needs to watch a few episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer....

That show had a sort of conceit that simply taking hold of someone's head from behind and giving it a bit of a twist was invariably lethal. I was completely puzzled by this until some said something about "and then the scene near the end where the Master broke Buffy's neck...." My reaction was, you'd have to do a damn sight more than that to break anyone's neck actually.

But maybe these old vampires were all chiropractors.

Rolfe.

[Graham Maynard]

Sure - the old WW2 Home Guard were taught how to kill instantly by jerking an enemy's head-neck. It did not take much action compared to forces necessary for inflicting other injuries.

The 10th March 2009 link is of interest here -
Worldwideweb - chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=victims&action=display&thread=3091&page=4

[bfsgross]

Gee, chiropractic helped me conquer migraine headaches. I dun no, I like chiropractic. It's a natural.

Try chiropractic everybody. It's ok!

[bfsgross]

More force is used in birthing babies while orientating and then giuding baby through birth canal than chiropractic spinal adjustments.

I was a skeptic of chiropractic till was helped by a doctor of chiropractic for my high blood pressure.

[bfsgross]

Outcomes were very good due to addressing the underlying cause (nerve irritations and nutritional abberations).

Med school does not provide for lifestyle and nutritional counseling as does chiropractic school.

[Asolepius]

More force is used in birthing babies while orientating and then giuding baby through birth canal than chiropractic spinal adjustments.I never heard of babies being born via the neck.

I was a skeptic of chiropractic till was helped by a doctor of chiropractic for my high blood pressure.I see you are a newbie, so welcome. You will eventually learn that personal anecdotes are not evidence.

[Asolepius]

Outcomes were very good due to addressing the underlying cause (nerve irritations and nutritional abberations).OK, so demonstrate objectively that either of these `causes' exists.

Med school does not provide for lifestyle and nutritional counseling as does chiropractic school.Med schools that don't are not worthy of the name. You are making this up.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Hello everyone. My name is Dr. Arthur Walczyk. I am a gastroenterologist in NY.


Are you sure the name's not Nick Riviera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqImkDgDwHU)?

[JJM]

Gee, chiropractic helped me conquer migraine headaches. {snip}
{snip} I was a skeptic of chiropractic till was helped by a doctor of chiropractic for my high blood pressure.Huh? Can't decide on your story?

Outcomes were very good due to addressing the underlying cause (nerve irritations and nutritional abberations).

Med school does not provide for lifestyle and nutritional counseling as does chiropractic school.I love it when chiroquacktors try to pass themselves as real doctors; they are so easy to spot.

[Blue Wode]

In summation, chiropractors are primary care doctors that focuses their attention on the nervous system, which supplies all the vital information to every cell of the body, and instills in the patient a healthy lifestyle that leads to long standing health and wellness.


Here’s an alternative summation…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUwnkTnHrtI

(1min 47secs)

[bfsgross]

Asthma and chiropractic: The bronchials and alveolii (air tubes and sacs leading to and in the lungs) recieve their innervation from the autonomic nervous system, particularly the sympathetic chain ganglia that synapses at T2 (2nd thoracic region) and continues to the lung fields, both delivering and recieving information from the brain stem (occiput-C1-atlas, and C2 (axis).

Primary subluxations in the upper thoracic region have been demonstrated and relieved to restore proper functioning of the sympathetic chain ganglia at this region.

not bad for an md?

[Professor Yaffle]

Here’s an alternative summation…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUwnkTnHrtI

(1min 47secs)

I hate it when someone posts an Eddie Izzard video - when I've watched it, I can't resist watching another related one, then another, then another...

[bfsgross]

check it for yourself. med schools do not teach nutrition except as an elective. strong in public health but no nutrition and lifestyle counseling. been there done that. chiro school very strong in nutrition and lifestyle counseling.

sorry, wish i could fold on this subject, but forced not to by the literature.

[Mojo]

Primary subluxations in the upper thoracic region have been demonstrated...


Do you have any evidence that chiropractic subluxations have been demonstrated to exist?

[bfsgross]

watched the vid. the audience seemed more amused with the guy in drag "trying" to be funny.

i mean it man, he just wasn't funny? perhaps his limp wristed comedic style was a bit amusing

but take away the makeup and lip stick...no laughs. eddie just was'nt funny.

he couldn't be funny even if he poked on the 750,000 dead americans from prescription meds each year in the u.s.

I wouldn't joke about this fact though. my uncle died from coumidin (a blood thinner) than from the atherosclerosis.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Asthma and chiropractic: The bronchials and alveolii (air tubes and sacs leading to and in the lungs) recieve their innervation from the autonomic nervous system, particularly the sympathetic chain ganglia that synapses at T2 (2nd thoracic region) and continues to the lung fields, both delivering and recieving information from the brain stem (occiput-C1-atlas, and C2 (axis).

Primary subluxations in the upper thoracic region have been demonstrated and relieved to restore proper functioning of the sympathetic chain ganglia at this region.

not bad for an md?

I'm sure an "md" can show us some clear independent (i.e. not just using the chiropracter's fingers of fiction) evidence of the existence of a spinal subluxation and its correction for just one chiropractic case. Please, present that evidence.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Do you have any evidence that chiropractic subluxations have been demonstrated to exist?

Spooky!

[Asolepius]

Asthma and chiropractic: The bronchials and alveolii (air tubes and sacs leading to and in the lungs) recieve their innervation from the autonomic nervous system, particularly the sympathetic chain ganglia that synapses at T2 (2nd thoracic region) and continues to the lung fields, both delivering and recieving information from the brain stem (occiput-C1-atlas, and C2 (axis). So what?

Primary subluxations in the upper thoracic region have been demonstrated and relieved to restore proper functioning of the sympathetic chain ganglia at this region.Citation please? From a main stream peer reviewed journal.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Citation please? From a main stream peer reviewed journal.

Do you really mean to say we can't just take the word of a chiropracter for it? It's almost like you are implying they have a vested interest in evading any objective demonstration of their central claim.

Say it ain't so.

[bfsgross]

come on? yes! of course i can provide (visuals) of subluxations on x-ray. are you being silly? or serious?

just look at a vertebrae that slips forward (posterior) of the one below (spondylolisthesis). this a subluxation my man. how about a retrolisthesis? A posterior slippage? any juxta- malposition of one or more vertebrae in an antero, postero, left or right, or rotational plane, is a subluxation.

iv'e seen thousands of lateralized or rotated atlas's and axis subluxations!

my radiologist alerts both me and my chiro man any presence of subluxations. yes! vertebral subluxations is usual and customary amongs medical radiologists.

ya got to give up the "elusive subluxation garbage" in order to move ahead.

[bfsgross]

iv' got something for yas (scientific peer review). taking a two hour break.

[Professor Yaffle]

watched the vid. the audience seemed more amused with the guy in drag "trying" to be funny.

i mean it man, he just wasn't funny? perhaps his limp wristed comedic style was a bit amusing

but take away the makeup and lip stick...no laughs. eddie just was'nt funny.

he couldn't be funny even if he poked on the 750,000 dead americans from prescription meds each year in the u.s.


Now I know your opinion is not worth hearing...

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

come on? yes! of course i can provide (visuals) of subluxations on x-ray. are you being silly? or serious?

just look at a vertebrae that slips forward (posterior) of the one below (spondylolisthesis). this a subluxation my man. how about a retrolisthesis? A posterior slippage? any juxta- malposition of one or more vertebrae in an antero, postero, left or right, or rotational plane, is a subluxation.

iv'e seen thousands of lateralized or rotated atlas's and axis subluxations!

my radiologist alerts both me and my chiro man any presence of subluxations. yes! vertebral subluxations is usual and customary amongs medical radiologists.

ya got to give up the "elusive subluxation garbage" in order to move ahead.

Excellent, so now you'll be able to show us some evidence that these alleged diagnoses can be confirmed by radiologists on 'before' and 'after' radiographs when they are blinded to the patient's history and that they can spot which is the 'before' and which the 'after' image.

Off you go. This is your area of expertise, so I am sure you have plenty of evidence.

[godless dave]

Med school does not provide for lifestyle and nutritional counseling as does chiropractic school.

Then how come my medical doctor keeps telling me to get more aerobic exercise and keeps offering to refer me to a nutritionist?

[bfsgross]

hey hey lol lol

funny man!

[bfsgross]

cause he doesn't know anything about nutrition and exercise physiology. not taught in med school. he referred you out! he sent you elsewhere!

next!

[Asolepius]

just look at a vertebrae...... Now I know you are an amateur. The singular is vertebra.

[paximperium]

cause he doesn't know anything about nutrition and exercise physiology. not taught in med school. he referred you out! he sent you elsewhere!

next!
He? I thought YOU were claiming to be an MD?

Well MDs are smart enough to know the limits of their training and will happily make sure that patients are being appropriately cared for by a nutritionist if the need it unlike chiroquacks who believe that everything is due to subluxations and that is can cure everything.

[kellyb]

More force is used in birthing babies while orientating and then giuding baby through birth canal than chiropractic spinal adjustments.

.

Given the fact that I've broken my tailbone TWICE while giving birth, that's not very reassuring.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Excellent, so now you'll be able to show us some evidence that these alleged diagnoses can be confirmed by radiologists on 'before' and 'after' radiographs when they are blinded to the patient's history and that they can spot which is the 'before' and which the 'after' image.

Off you go. This is your area of expertise, so I am sure you have plenty of evidence.

Second time of asking.

[ponderingturtle]

He? I thought YOU were claiming to be an MD?


It is unclear if he is claiming anything or posting other sources. This really feels like a shotgun pro chiro approach, not a consistent reasoned argument for chiropracty.

[paximperium]

It is unclear if he is claiming anything or posting other sources. This really feels like a shotgun pro chiro approach, not a consistent reasoned argument for chiropracty.
Ahhhh...he/she is doing a great job.

[TraneWreck]

I'm impressed that you guys dealt with this nut seriously for as long as you did.

He's clearly just trolling.

[IMST]

I'm quite offended. bfsgross called the world's premier action transvestite "limp wristed"

[paximperium]

I'm impressed that you guys dealt with this nut seriously for as long as you did.

He's clearly just trolling.
It's like a cat playing with a dead mouse...just wait until the cat presents the carcass to you as a sign of affection.

[Fordama]

As an MD in family practice, I confidently assert that chiropractic is a valid health dicipline that is misunderstood and everyone requires. This reminds me of the line in A Few Good Men when Weinberg says to Calley, ""I strenuously object?" Is that how it works? Hm? "Objection." "Overruled." "Oh, no, no, no. No, I strenuously object." "Oh. Well, if you strenuously object then I should take some time to reconsider."

[athon]

Asthma and chiropractic: The bronchials and alveolii (air tubes and sacs leading to and in the lungs) recieve their innervation from the autonomic nervous system, particularly the sympathetic chain ganglia that synapses at T2 (2nd thoracic region) and continues to the lung fields, both delivering and recieving information from the brain stem (occiput-C1-atlas, and C2 (axis).

Primary subluxations in the upper thoracic region have been demonstrated and relieved to restore proper functioning of the sympathetic chain ganglia at this region.

not bad for an md?

You do realise that the studies into this show chiropractic does nothing, right?

I once spent a couple of months chasing up any papers I could find involving colic and asthma and chiropractics, and the best I came up with was a few papers saying they remained optimistic in spite of not achieving significant results.

The response from the chiro who was making the case in favour of it? 'This proves science is still yet to find the answers'.

Yup. Science abuse at its best.



Athon

[athon]

cause he doesn't know anything about nutrition and exercise physiology. not taught in med school. he referred you out! he sent you elsewhere!

next!

Actually, about the same amount of nutrition is taught in chiropractic training as it is to your average GP, at least in Australia (and, I've just been told, in the UK...although I'll reserve judgement on that).

As pax said - most doctors know enough to bring in the experts if it is needed.

This is more of the 'chiro is holistic' bs. Sure, we all get arrogant GPs, yet in my experience most doctors I've worked with have frequently lamented how 'if only half of their patients exercised, stopped smoking, changed their diet and reduced stress levels, their workload would be halved'. If that's not holistic, I don't know what is.

Athon

[Mojo]

come on? yes! of course i can provide (visuals) of subluxations on x-ray. are you being silly? or serious?

just look at a vertebrae that slips forward (posterior) of the one below (spondylolisthesis). this a subluxation my man. how about a retrolisthesis? A posterior slippage? any juxta- malposition of one or more vertebrae in an antero, postero, left or right, or rotational plane, is a subluxation.

iv'e seen thousands of lateralized or rotated atlas's and axis subluxations!

my radiologist alerts both me and my chiro man any presence of subluxations. yes! vertebral subluxations is usual and customary amongs medical radiologists.

ya got to give up the "elusive subluxation garbage" in order to move ahead.


That's odd. These guys describe the chiropractic subluxation as "an entity that is yet to be shown to exist": http://www.chiroindex.org/articles.php?articleId=19380

[bfsgross]

Hi Linda,

As an exercise, visit a busy chiropractic office (most are). Here you will witness the reason(s) for the doctors success...the hundreds of people who took the initiative to learn how to obtain and maintain (wellness) their health through chiropractic spinal adjustments and chiropractic teachings of how the body works and what it needs.

Give it a try

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Excellent, so now you'll be able to show us some evidence that these alleged diagnoses can be confirmed by radiologists on 'before' and 'after' radiographs when they are blinded to the patient's history and that they can spot which is the 'before' and which the 'after' image.

Off you go. This is your area of expertise, so I am sure you have plenty of evidence.

Third time of asking.

[ponderingturtle]

Hi Linda,

As an exercise, visit a busy chiropractic office (most are). Here you will witness the reason(s) for the doctors success...the hundreds of people who took the initiative to learn how to obtain and maintain (wellness) their health through chiropractic spinal adjustments and chiropractic teachings of how the body works and what it needs.

Give it a try

Go to a Benny Hinn event, and you will see thousands of people embracing the healing power of jesus.

Or do you not believe that Benny Hinn has god given powers to heal the sick?

[bfsgross]

Correction: Gezendanner wrote "Both chiropractic and medicine lay good claims against each other regarding both methodology and efficacy of approach to various health issues. However, since millions of Americans seek and enjoy chiropractic care, one is compelled to assume chiropractic holds a valid role in health care in the U.S."

Avoiding the AMA's and organized medicines culpability in both bad practice (750,000 deaths/year), conspiracy, and defamation, as a means to restrict trade, are the makings for a confounding argument for one who favors the AMA and medicine.

I along with 3/4 of MD's, choose not to belong to the AMA, an organization with deep and troubling alterior motives of designs of disenfranchment.

[bfsgross]

LOL, woh wait...Physiotherapist, don't tell me you really believed you would recieve a "Welcome mate in helping us bash chiropractic" invitation, while you too are a hands on practitioner? LOL! LOL! ha ha ha.

These here "Hard core confused confuscious's" hate anyone who uses their own hands and minds instead of chemicals, needles, and knives!

Please, do your self a big favor. Physiotherapy is great and necessary. But to distance physiotherapy from chiropractic burns physiotherapies sole bridge to validity, enhancement, and ultimately wide scale utilization.

In other words, if one examines chiropractics journey in America, you witness a successive rise in its implementation and use. Chiropractic school is 5000 hours of primary health care instruction to medicines 4400 hrs. The 2nd largest of the primary health care doctors is also the fastest growing. Chiropractic schools are reporting record enrollment. President Barach Obama is both a chiropractic patient and avid proponent of chiropractic. He recently met with the ACA and expressed an opinion that sees chiropractic playing a major role in primary health care. Presently nearly 35,000,000 americans utilize chiropractic care on a regular basis.

You get the picture?

LOL LOL LOL, he he he.... Sorry. But it was kiind of funny to see you try to join the gang that prefers pill bottles, while you wish to use your hands.

[bfsgross]

"Now I know your opinion is not worth hearig" Na Na Na NA! What a baby?

[bfsgross]

"MD's know their limitations" Please! My ex-associate is still fighting a multi million dollar medical malpractice suite where he is rightfully accused of prescribing two antagonistic anti inflammatory drugs for what he thought was simple back pain. Tragically, the patients liver and kidneys failed, killing him. Forget the docs career, its shot! Over pills? These small little pills?

A referral to a chiropractic doctor was in line for the missed disc herniation. Besides the patient being in better hands with a better skilled doctor, he would have been alive!!!!

Would'nt you say so Mr.! Think this is funny?! A JOKE?! The person is DEAD!!!! Have you seen a person die from medication or surgery? I did! Several times. It rots! You never forget it. It sticks with you for the rest of your life. I can't forget about it and can't get it out of my head! 750,000 american senseless deaths from prescription medication and surgeries per year?

The dead man's family is broken on all fronts...their hearts, their vitality!

You all need to think real hard here.

[athon]

"MD's know their limitations" Please! My ex-associate is still fighting a multi million dollar medical malpractice suite where he is rightfully accused of prescribing two antagonistic anti inflammatory drugs for what he thought was simple back pain. Tragically, the patients liver and kidneys failed, killing him. Forget the docs career, its shot! Over pills? These small little pills?

A referral to a chiropractic doctor was in line for the missed disc herniation. Besides the patient being in better hands with a better skilled doctor, he would have been alive!!!!

Would'nt you say so Mr.! Think this is funny?! A JOKE?! The person is DEAD!!!! Have you seen a person die from medication or surgery? I did! Several times. It rots! You never forget it. It sticks with you for the rest of your life. I can't forget about it and can't get it out of my head! 750,000 american senseless deaths from prescription medication and surgeries per year?

The dead man's family is broken on all fronts...their hearts, their vitality!

You all need to think real hard here.

Emotional pleading isn't how decisions are made, unfortunately. The same cases can be made for all forms of medical practice. Human application is irrelevant to whether the practice works as a science or not.

Are you going to respond to any of the points made in this thread, or are you incapable of thinking critically? If the latter, I really have to ask what you're doing here. You're obviously convinced, but since most people here require more than emotional rants to be persuaded, you'll have to go that one step further and produce something solid to discuss.

Athon

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Excellent, so now you'll be able to show us some evidence that these alleged diagnoses can be confirmed by radiologists on 'before' and 'after' radiographs when they are blinded to the patient's history and that they can spot which is the 'before' and which the 'after' image.

Off you go. This is your area of expertise, so I am sure you have plenty of evidence.

Fourth time of asking.

[proudnonbbeliever]

I was under the impression that lymphatic tissue produces lymphatic fluid that accumulates and can be released to move into other tissues. This is from a massage bookmind you, does any one know if this is correct? I fail to see how tissue could migrate (regarding OP) around the body though, unless it was a parasitic organism.

i watch too much scifi channel...

[proudnonbbeliever]

BFSGROSS:

you are clearly misunderstanding the debate here, which is not against hands on practitioners, it is against the promotion of unsubstantiated claims and unsafe procedures of an organisations members.

and i believe you meant confucian, refering to followers of the chinese philosopher kung fu tse, which is a seperate philosophy to skepticism.

[Asolepius]

Hi Linda,

As an exercise, visit a busy chiropractic office (most are). Here you will witness the reason(s) for the doctors success...the hundreds of people who took the initiative to learn how to obtain and maintain (wellness) their health through chiropractic spinal adjustments and chiropractic teachings of how the body works and what it needs.

Give it a tryI did. Three chiropractic sessions for back pain. It did nothing. Chiro scratched his head and could not understand why it didn't work. Still charged me though. So I went to the good old free National Health Service and had physiotherapy. Not a twinge since, and that was 6 years ago.

Now as you seem to be so impressed by anecdotes, try that one for size. For me, I know that my personal experience isn't science.

[Asolepius]

Primary subluxations in the upper thoracic region have been demonstrated and relieved to restore proper functioning of the sympathetic chain ganglia at this region.

Citation please? From a main stream peer reviewed journal.Trying again.

[Ducky]

My chiropractor claimed my back problems were cured, coincidentally, on the day the insurance money ran out. However he did want to keep seeing me weekly for maintenance adjustments, and he wanted me to bring my wife and kids in to make sure they were healthy. I declined.

As I had no pain relief from his treatments I went to a neurologist and then to a neurosurgeon. I have been pain free for a year and a half. Titanium is IMHO much better than A neck snap for a broken vertebrae.

I'll second the titanium shout out.

[Asolepius]

I along with 3/4 of MD's, choose not to belong to the AMA, an organization with deep and troubling alterior motives of designs of disenfranchment."Last edited by bfsgross; Today at 01:37 AM. Reason: spelling ". And you still can't spell `ulterior'.

[paximperium]

"MD's know their limitations" Please! My ex-associate is still fighting a multi million dollar medical malpractice suite where he is rightfully accused of prescribing two antagonistic anti inflammatory drugs for what he thought was simple back pain. Tragically, the patients liver and kidneys failed, killing him. Forget the docs career, its shot! Over pills? These small little pills?
Really? What were these pills and what was the limit that was supposedly passed by your "ex-associate" in the treatment of back pain?
What was the person's medical history? What was the presentation?
Are you sure it was the pills or a missed diagnosis?

A referral to a chiropractic doctor was in line for the missed disc herniation. Besides the patient being in better hands with a better skilled doctor, he would have been alive!!!!
How do you know this or is second guessing your specialty?
Could the back pain have been something else like cholecystitis or pyelonephritis? Could your chiro powers have cured these diseases?

Would'nt you say so Mr.! Think this is funny?! A JOKE?! The person is DEAD!!!! Have you seen a person die from medication or surgery? I did! Several times. It rots! You never forget it. It sticks with you for the rest of your life. I can't forget about it and can't get it out of my head! 750,000 american senseless deaths from prescription medication and surgeries per year? No YOU are the one thinks this is a joke. Lying and making up stories shows how weak and pathetic your entire case is. Emotional pleading with not one ounce of evidence. This is not a game, lives are at stake and basing your entire argument on dishonest arguments is positively vile.

The dead man's family is broken on all fronts...their hearts, their vitality!

You all need to think real hard here.
I'm thinking about why someone on the internet would lie and pretend to be a doctor and present some unsubstantiated and unconfirmable sob story and expected to be taken seriously?

[Mashuna]

"MD's know their limitations" Please! My ex-associate is still fighting a multi million dollar medical malpractice suite where he is rightfully accused of prescribing two antagonistic anti inflammatory drugs for what he thought was simple back pain. Tragically, the patients liver and kidneys failed, killing him. Forget the docs career, its shot! Over pills? These small little pills?

A referral to a chiropractic doctor was in line for the missed disc herniation. Besides the patient being in better hands with a better skilled doctor, he would have been alive!!!!

Would'nt you say so Mr.! Think this is funny?! A JOKE?! The person is DEAD!!!! Have you seen a person die from medication or surgery? I did! Several times. It rots! You never forget it. It sticks with you for the rest of your life. I can't forget about it and can't get it out of my head! 750,000 american senseless deaths from prescription medication and surgeries per year?

The dead man's family is broken on all fronts...their hearts, their vitality!

You all need to think real hard here.


I've thought hard, and I think you're lying.

[ponderingturtle]

"Now I know your opinion is not worth hearig" Na Na Na NA! What a baby?

So as you were basing your support on the beliefs of individuals, you do not actualy have a responce for why people should not believe Benny Hinn can heal the sick.

[Kuko 4000]

Go to a Benny Hinn event, and you will see thousands of people embracing the healing power of jesus.


Actually, make that hundreds of thousands in one gig.

:(

[Tapio]

Often, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer's motives.....Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding tends to encourage trolls to continue disruptive posts — hence the often-seen warning: "Please do not feed the trolls"

:crc:

[paximperium]

I was under the impression that lymphatic tissue produces lymphatic fluid that accumulates and can be released to move into other tissues. This is from a massage bookmind you, does any one know if this is correct? I fail to see how tissue could migrate (regarding OP) around the body though, unless it was a parasitic organism.

i watch too much scifi channel...
Lymphatic fluid travels through the lymphatic system, basically little tubes analogous to veins via passive processes and muscle compression. It collects in lymph nodes and empties back into the vascular system near heart.

So, massage and exercise definately helps in moving lymph fluid along and this is actually some of the physical therapy that is done in certain medical conditions.

[proudnonbbeliever]

thanks pax, appreciated

[Mojo]

Long Live Chiropractic!

"The Power That Made The Body Heals The Body"!


Making chiropractic look like a religion isn't exactly helping your case.

[Foster Zygote]

Curriculae? Apperatii? Not a latin scholar either

"People called 'Romani' they go the house"?

[jhunter1163]

A referral to a chiropractic doctor was in line for the missed disc herniation.

This is false. A disc herniation is (or should be) a flat-out contraindication for chiropractic.

I do believe that chiropractic is beneficial is very specific and limited circumstances for the treatment of lower-back pain. I'll also point out that if chiropractic killed the same percentage of its patients as traditional medicine does, it would have been outlawed many years ago.

However, chiros need to know their limits as much (or more) as MDs do.

[Foster Zygote]

eddie just was'nt funny.

You, on the other hand, are hilarious.

[TraneWreck]

This is false. A disc herniation is (or should be) a flat-out contraindication for chiropractic.

I do believe that chiropractic is beneficial is very specific and limited circumstances for the treatment of lower-back pain. I'll also point out that if chiropractic killed the same percentage of its patients as traditional medicine does, it would have been outlawed many years ago.

However, chiros need to know their limits as much (or more) as MDs do.

So you take a discipline that by definition rarely, if ever, deals with life threatening conditions, then compare it blindly to people doing open-heart surgery and trying to treat cancer.

Nope, makes perfect sense to me...

[Pipirr]

I do believe that chiropractic is beneficial is very specific and limited circumstances for the treatment of lower-back pain.

Because chiropractic manipulation of the lower back is indistinguishable from massage of the lower back?

[jhunter1163]

So you take a discipline that by definition rarely, if ever, deals with life threatening conditions, then compare it blindly to people doing open-heart surgery and trying to treat cancer.

Nope, makes perfect sense to me...

Iatrogenic error kills about 95,000 Americans per year. They weren't ALL having heart surgery or cancer treament. I work for a large medical practice and I assure you that errors of diagnosis and/or treatment are commonplace in regular plain-vanilla family practice, and people DO die as a result. This is why our malpractice premiums are approaching half a million dollars per year for a group of 23 docs.

Chiropractic has been shown to be effective in treating low-back pain (see AHCPR study, Mercy guidelines). And nothing else.

If a patient had low-back pain before chiropractic treatment, and didn't have pain afterwards, how can you say chiropractic is not an effective treatment? The goal of any modality is pain relief, is it not?

I don't agree with the pro-chiropractic people who say it's good for asthma, otitis media in children, and all the rest of that woo-woo stuff. But I also disagree with those who say it is of no benefit.

[ponderingturtle]

If a patient had low-back pain before chiropractic treatment, and didn't have pain afterwards, how can you say chiropractic is not an effective treatment? The goal of any modality is pain relief, is it not?


So you accept faith healing and homeopathy as effective treatment then?

Pain relief is highly subject to the placebo effect.

[Mojo]

You, on the other hand, are hilarious.


As a matter of fact they both were. The difference is that Eddie was doing it on purpose and bfsgross can't help it.

[Mojo]

If a patient had low-back pain before chiropractic treatment, and didn't have pain afterwards, how can you say chiropractic is not an effective treatment?


Because post hoc does not mean propter hoc.

[fls]

Iatrogenic error kills about 95,000 Americans per year.

Do you have a source for this number?

If a patient had low-back pain before chiropractic treatment, and didn't have pain afterwards, how can you say chiropractic is not an effective treatment? The goal of any modality is pain relief, is it not?

This same method of determining effectiveness shows us that homeopathy and bloodletting are also effective.

Linda

[jhunter1163]

Do you have a source for this number?

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

I used the IOW figure. It was actually 98,000, not 95,000. My bad.

This same method of determining effectiveness shows us that homeopathy and bloodletting are also effective.

Homeopathy and bloodletting have no scientific support whatsoever. Chiropractic has, at least, some very limited effectiveness (see AHCPR and Mercy guidelines cited above).

[paximperium]

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

I used the IOW figure. It was actually 98,000, not 95,000. My bad.
That study is heavily criticizes and flawed. The true number is closer to 5000-8000. A bad number but not as bad as originally claimed.

[fls]

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

I used the IOW figure. It was actually 98,000, not 95,000. My bad.

Regardless of the methodology, I'm curious as to why you chose to quote the upper limit of the range, rather than a more representative number?

Homeopathy and bloodletting have no scientific support whatsoever.

We weren't talking about scientific support. We were talking about whether before and after comparisons serve to show effectiveness.

Linda

[Professor Yaffle]

BTW I don't have an axe to grind here, I just like to find out the reasons when my prior opinion conflicts with other literature.

[jhunter1163]

Regardless of the methodology, I'm curious as to why you chose to quote the upper limit of the range, rather than a more representative number?

There are actually several numbers in that link, from 44,000 to 195,000. I used a midpoint number. Also, can you or Pax link to the criticisms/flaws in the IOW study?

To try and return this to topic, can anyone show an estimate for the risk of death from chiropractic adjustment for comparative purposes?

[fls]

There are actually several numbers in that link, from 44,000 to 195,000. I used a midpoint number.

The 195,000 was from a Healthgrades report. They simply measured conditions which were more likely to be associated with an adverse event, such as pressure ulcer. But of course, the number of people who actually had an adverse event and died will be a much smaller portion of that number.

Also, can you or Pax link to the criticisms/flaws in the IOW study?

Here's one.

http://uwf.edu/sahls/medicalinformatics/docfiles/Debates%20USA%20death%20rates.pdf

To try and return this to topic, can anyone show an estimate for the risk of death from chiropractic adjustment for comparative purposes?

What's the risk of death from not having chiropractic adjustment?

Linda

[fls]

BTW I don't have an axe to grind here, I just like to find out the reasons when my prior opinion conflicts with other literature.

Because the information is conflicting. And as soon as you try to form an opinion on the topic, some new information will come along and contradict it. :)

Linda

[ponderingturtle]

Because the risk of death from not performing colonoscopy (i.e. failing to prevent and treat cancer) is higher.

Linda

You can just treat the cancer with chiropractic techniques, just ask them.

[ponderingturtle]

Because the information is conflicting. And as soon as you try to form an opinion on the topic, some new information will come along and contradict it. :)

Linda

See that is the benefit of chiropractic over medicine, no new developments and studies changing the treatment.

[joobz]

What's the risk of death from not having chiropractic adjustment?
100%....eventually.

[Tricky]

Discussion of colonoscopy has been split here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=138429).