A scathing attack on AIPAC by Chas Freeman

[webfusion]

After realizing that his confirmation as NIC head was not going to happen without a tough fight (all 7 Republican Senators of the Senate Intelligence Committee sent a letter to Blair Monday expressing concerns about Freeman's suitability for the job), Chas Freeman has withdrawn his nomination.

In doing so, he produced a statement, saying that he has been a victim of "libels" and, inter-alia, "character assassination, selective misquotation, the willful distortion of the record, the fabrication of falsehoods, and an utter disregard for the truth."
as he specifically blames the Israel Lobby (read: AIPAC).
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/10/chas-freeman-slams-israel_n_173740.html

I would certainly like to read the contents of the letter sent to Blair. Can anyone find that?


Well, anyway, Chas Freeman is not going to get the NIC job, but he should be happy ---- now he gets to go ahead and write a juicy book.

[WildCat]

If he was libeled he could sue...

[Brainster]

I love it that people like Freeman who espouse "realpolitique" suddenly piss and moan when they encounter it.

Incidentally, although the OP indicates this was a Republican smear campaign in fact the biggest and most important pushback against Freeman (http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/middle-east/schumer-takes-credit-for-getting-chas-freeman-ousted/) came from Chuck Schumer.

[malcolmxwarrior]

good thread.

This is cause for concern. This is like when admiral fallon resigned. They might attack Iran soon =(

[dudalb]

When all else fails, blame the Jews.

[malcolmxwarrior]

http://www.antiwar.com/ips/lubanlobe.php?articleid=14386

More of the same. Come on obama! Grow a pair.

Chuck Norris '12

[a_unique_person]

When all else fails, blame the Jews.

He is not blaming "the Jews", he is blaming "the Israel Lobby".


The libels on me and their easily traceable email trails show conclusively that there is a powerful lobby determined to prevent any view other than its own from being aired, still less to factor in American understanding of trends and events in the Middle East. The tactics of the Israel Lobby plumb the depths of dishonor and indecency and include character assassination, selective misquotation, the willful distortion of the record, the fabrication of falsehoods, and an utter disregard for the truth. The aim of this Lobby is control of the policy process through the exercise of a veto over the appointment of people who dispute the wisdom of its views, the substitution of political correctness for analysis, and the exclusion of any and all options for decision by Americans and our government other than those that it favors.


After seeing the work of the more extreme Israel supporters here, he could have a point. He has read emails, and he can trace those email trails.

[malcolmxwarrior]

When all else fails, blame the Jews.

Don't worry, you've been a loyal sheep. Your FEMA camp will have air conditioning.

[Thunder]

Mr. Freeman, based on his various comments regarding Israel and the Palestinians, did not seem like a very impartial and unbiased guy. These positions deserve folks who are neither overtly pro nor overtly anti Israel.

[NoZed Avenger]

Mr. Freeman, based on his various comments regarding Israel and the Palestinians, did not seem like a very impartial and unbiased guy. These positions deserve folks who are neither overtly pro nor overtly anti Israel.

Frankly, his ties to the House of Saud (an dpotential conflicts of interest) and past pronouncements on Iran were more troubling than any Israel/Palestine talk. His complaint against the "Israel Lobby" appears to be as much a deflection and face-saving move as anything else.

[Doctor Evil]

After seeing the work of the more extreme Israel supporters here, he could have a point. He has read emails, and he can trace those email trails.

Then he should trace the emails and name the people involved. I also find curious the claim that he is prevented from expressing his views. I mean, you were just citing his words, weren't you?

[dudalb]

And Might earn him brownie points with his past and future employers, The House of Saud.

[Thunder]

http://www.antiwar.com/ips/lubanlobe.php?articleid=14386

More of the same. Come on obama! Grow a pair.

Chuck Norris '12

I've been wondering. Do your Docs have white or red laces?

[malcolmxwarrior]

I've been wondering. Do your Docs have white or red laces?

Both.

[Thunder]

"Nazi schweinen!!! Nazis raus!!!"

:D

[Puppycow]

Mr. Freeman, based on his various comments regarding Israel and the Palestinians, did not seem like a very impartial and unbiased guy. These positions deserve folks who are neither overtly pro nor overtly anti Israel.

What were these comments? (I haven't heard them yet.)

Joe Klein (http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/03/10/assassination/):

Chas Freeman has withdrawn his name from consideration as the chairman of the National Intelligence Council. His withdrawal statement is relayed here by Laura Rozen in all its pugnacious glory. The guy goes out with guns blazing--a bit too hot, for my taste. He pins his departure on "the Israel Lobby," which is imprecise. He was the victim of a mob, not a lobby. The mob was composed primarily of Jewish neoconservatives--abetted by less than courageous public servants like Senator Chuck Schumer, who has publicly taken credit for the hit. This was his statement:

"Charles Freeman was the wrong guy for this position. His statements against Israel were way over the top and severely out of step with the administration. I repeatedly urged the White House to reject him, and I am glad they did the right thing."

Schumer should know that he has taken a scalp in the name of closed-mindedness, which is not a well-known Jewish tradition. He has made Washington even less hospitable for those who aren't afraid to speak their minds, for those who are reflexively contentious, who would defy the conventional wisdom.

Freeman's most important point in his statement is this one:

"I believe that the inability of the American public to discuss, or the government to consider, any option for US policies in the Middle East opposed by the ruling faction in Israeli politics has allowed that faction to adopt and sustain policies that ultimately threaten the existence of the state of Israel. It is not permitted for anyone in the United States to say so. This is not just a tragedy for Israelis and their neighbors in the Middle East; it is doing widening damage to the national security of the United States."

Barack Obama should take note. The thugs have taken out Chas Freeman. They will not rest. Their real target is you, Mr. President.


James Fallows (http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/03/the_end_for_freeman.php):
As I mentioned originally, I had no intention of getting into the Chas Freeman matter. It has ended in an ugly way -- Freeman's departure statement is intemperate, but even calmer people might sound testy if they had been accused of "hostility toward Jews generally" without, to my knowledge, any evidence for that claim.

I want to think carefully before saying much more about this episode. For the moment my sentiments are closest to those expressed by David Rothkopf, friend and stalwart supporter of Freeman, in this post at the Foreign Policy blog:

"The genesis of that crisis is that we have lost perspective on what the criteria for selecting and approving government officials ought to be. Financial trivia, minutiae from people's personal lives and political litmus tests have grown in importance while character, experience, intelligence, creativity and wisdom have fallen by the wayside. Ridiculous threshold obstacles stand alongside obscene ones and when taken with the relentless personal attacks associated with high level jobs in Washington -- the low pay, and the extreme difficulty of getting anything done -- we are seeing even those selected for senior jobs turn away in droves. We are at a moment of not one but an extraordinary array of great crises and challenges for America and we are effectively keeping the people we need most out of the positions we most need filled."

Emphasis mine. The friend I quoted when I first raised this topic said that, in his view, the controversy over Freeman's appointment amounted to the "self-lobotomization" of the US policy-making apparatus. He was talking just about Freeman, but the problem is clearly broader, as Rothkopf points out. Thought experiment: Steven Chu, our new Secretary of Energy, was previously director of the UC-run Lawrence-Berkeley Lab. The Lab receives a tremendous amount of funding from the US government, largely through the DOE. Chu himself is recused from being involved in such deals for a ceratin period. Suppose instead that this background had been considered a "conflict" that would bar him from office. You could imagine people making the argument, if Chu's reputation were less bullet-proof or if he had offended some interest group.

One other point. Rothkopf ends his post this way:

"The result [of problems described above] is not a government of people without conflicts of interest or troubling ties, rather it is a government full of people whose conflicts and ties are with groups powerful enough to protect them. This among other reasons is why I, as a Jew with a memory, was so opposed to the attacks on Freeman. But for the record, the most compelling reason I found for believing Chas Freeman would have been a superb Chairman of the National Intelligence Council was one that seldom came up in all the articles I read. I actually know him."

As I initially pointed out, I do not know Freeman and had never paid attention to him before this controversy. But it turns out that nearly twenty people I know well enough to respect and trust have themselves known and worked with Freeman. Every one of them supported his nomination. And -- as it is unfortunately relevant to point out in these circumstances -- most of them are Jewish.

We'll all think about this episode for a while.

[Texas]

What were these comments? (I haven't heard them yet.)

Joe Klein (http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/03/10/assassination/):



James Fallows (http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/03/the_end_for_freeman.php):His statements on Tiananmen Square alone were enough to disqualify him from any consideration.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/02/the_realist_chas_freeman.asp
I will leave it to others to address the main thrust of your reflection on Eric's remarks. But I want to take issue with what I assume, perhaps incorrectly, to be yoiur citation of the conventional wisdom about the 6/4 [or Tiananmen] incident. I find the dominant view in China about this very plausible, i.e. that the truly unforgivable mistake of the Chinese authorities was the failure to intervene on a timely basis to nip the demonstrations in the bud, rather than -- as would have been both wise and efficacious -- to intervene with force when all other measures had failed to restore domestic tranquility to Beijing and other major urban centers in China. In this optic, the Politburo's response to the mob scene at "Tian'anmen" stands as a monument to overly cautious behavior on the part of the leadership, not as an example of rash action

[Doctor Evil]

Since I am a cynic, I half-hope that the replacement nominee would be from either AIPAC or the parallel Taiwanese organization. Then I predict, we will see a full reversal of roles. Most of Freeman supporters would oppose the nomination, while the ones which opposed it would suddenly start to support it.

Personally, I could not care much. However, one of the bloggers I sometimes read, Jeffrey Goldberg, have (http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/03/freeman_on_israel_and_911.php) written (http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/03/andrew_freeman_me_treason_and.php) on this (http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/03/five_observations_on_the_freem.php). Somehow, I do not think he is part of AIPAC, or any other campaign.

Thinking about this, I believe that once someone have decided to advise or lobby for a foreign government he should be disqualified from an unelected position in future administrations. Is such a rule practical?

[a_unique_person]

Since I am a cynic, I half-hope that the replacement nominee would be from either AIPAC or the parallel Taiwanese organization. Then I predict, we will see a full reversal of roles. Most of Freeman supporters would oppose the nomination, while the ones which opposed it would suddenly start to support it.

Personally, I could not care much. However, one of the bloggers I sometimes read, Jeffrey Goldberg, have (http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/03/freeman_on_israel_and_911.php) written (http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/03/andrew_freeman_me_treason_and.php) on this (http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/03/five_observations_on_the_freem.php). Somehow, I do not think he is part of AIPAC, or any other campaign.

Thinking about this, I believe that once someone have decided to advise or lobby for a foreign government he should be disqualified from an unelected position in future administrations. Is such a rule practical?

Freeman didn't refer to AIPAC, the person who created the thread did.

[Puppycow]

His statements on Tiananmen Square alone were enough to disqualify him from any consideration.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/02/the_realist_chas_freeman.asp

I mean the comments about Israel. parky76 specifically mentioned comments about Israel.

ETA: Not that I agree with the statement on Tiananmen, but this is an intelligence position, not a policymaking position. Is saying something Politically Incorrect grounds for disqualification? Should we not have some contrarians in the mix to avoid groupthink?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

When all else fails, blame the Jews.

No he's blaming AIPAC, a Zionist Organization NOT 'The Jews'

[Puppycow]

I guess I found those quotes about Israel.
NY Times:
Israel Stance Was Undoing of Nominee for Intelligence Post (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/12/washington/12lobby.html?_r=1&hp)

Mr. Freeman had long been critical of Israel, with a bluntness that American officials rarely voice in public about a staunch American ally. In 2006, he warned that, “left to its own devices, the Israeli establishment will make decisions that harm Israelis, threaten all associated with them and enrage those who are not.”

He did not soften his tone even on Wednesday, saying in an interview that “Israel is driving itself toward a cliff, and it is irresponsible not to question Israeli policy and to decide what is best for the American people.”

The critics who led the effort to derail Mr. Freeman argued that such views reflected a bias that could not be tolerated in someone who, as chairman of the National Intelligence Council, would have overseen the production of what are supposed to be policy-neutral intelligence assessments destined for the president’s desk.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Freeman didn't refer to AIPAC, the person who created the thread did.

Yes, since reading the article, I see this is true.

However the Zionist organization AIPAC are a major force in the Israel Lobby and an attack on one is attack on the other.

All top politicians have pledged allegiance to Israel through AIPAC. You have only gotta read the speeches made by Obama, McCain and Hillary to see this. you don't get anywhere decent in politics unless you pledge allegiance to Israel.

But it's great of Freeman to speak out against the undue influence of the Israeli Lobby in US Politics. The American unconditional support for the racist rogue state of Israel speaks volumes and is in complete conflict against America's claim to be a supporter of Freedom and Democracy.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

He is not blaming "the Jews", he is blaming "the Israel Lobby".



After seeing the work of the more extreme Israel supporters here, he could have a point. He has read emails, and he can trace those email trails.

The Zionist Apologists here are tame compared to the political tricks and influence of AIPAC, JINSA, ADL, et al.

[Oliver]

So what did Politico writer Ben Smith mean when he wrote :

"But the campaign against Freeman certainly originated in pro-Israel circles - though Freeman was nominated after those concerns became known." Source
(http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/19856_Page2.html)

[webfusion]

Although I conflated the exact words quoted "Israel lobby" interchangeably with AIPAC, the reference that Chas Freeman made was unmistakable.

Also - I repeat;
I would certainly like to read the contents of the letter sent to Blair.
Can anyone find that reproduced somewhere?

[Doctor Evil]

Freeman didn't refer to AIPAC, the person who created the thread did.

So who is he refering to, in your opinion?

[Oliver]

so who is he refering to, in your opinion?


tupac

[a_unique_person]

So who is he refering to, in your opinion?

I'm just going on what he wrote.

[Eddie Dane]

You know what I like? When I start a tread that gets lots of posts and just keeps going and going.
There's nothing I hate more than starting an interesting thread and getting no responses. Somehow it reflects back on me and I feel undervalued.

So I thought I'd have a go at a nice controversial subject.
A nice bit of bloodsport to keep us entertained until the next Gaza offensive.

I'm sure that the subject of Israeli influence has been done to death in these forums. But I just came across this bit of news:

*Cue ominous music*

The withdrawal of a senior intelligence adviser after an online campaign to prevent him from taking office has ignited a debate over whether powerful pro-Israel lobbying interests are exercising outsize influence over who serves in the Obama administration. (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/12/politics/washingtonpost/main4861434.shtml)

That looks pretty relevant to me.

Remember now, I expect fireworks because this subject has a nice explosive combination:


Actual lobbying by Israel
The "Jews control us" racist stereotype


Weeeee!

I'll withhold my own super-relevant, well reasoned opinion for now because I'm at work and can't put in the time right now.

[Sefarst]

Because I want to be part of what will likely be an epic, important thread at the very beginning, I contribute Chas Freeman's own words to the topic via foreignpolicy.com: http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/03/10/freeman_speaks_out_on_his_exit

Essentially he says that he was papered with angry emails that he believes shows there's an active pro-Israel lobby that may exist, at least informally.

[Patriot4life]

So who is he refering to, in your opinion?

Maybe this guy. (bolded)

Neoconservative Daniel Pipes offered an anatomy of the crime, blog-bragging about how it was conducted:

“What you may not know is that Steven J. Rosen of the Middle East forum was the person who first brought attention [on Feb. 19] to the problematic nature of Freeman’s appointment. … Within hours, the word was out and three weeks later Freeman has conceded defeat. Only someone with Steve’s stature and credibility could have made this happen.”

The same Steve Rosen who is currently on trial for violations of the Espionage Act involving the transmission of classified information intended for Israel? One and the same! This has to be the purest brand of gall that ever came down the Pipes.

Here are a few articles from consortiumnews on the subject (the first one being where the quoted passage above is from):

Timidity Derails Obama Intel Choice
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/031109a.html

The Neocons Strike Back
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/031109.html

Israel Lobby Knocks Out Freeman
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/031209a.html

[Eddie Dane]

Oh crap,

I just started a thread on this very subject.

Too late, too late!
Oh lord, why hast thou forsaken me! (I take this forum pretty serious, as you may notice)

[Rob Lister]

Essentially he says that he was papered with angry emails that he believes shows there's an active pro-Israel lobby that may exist, at least informally.

Oh.my.god. I'm part of that group.

I pinky-swear, I didn't mean to be part of that group...it just happened.

I don't even [know I] know any Jews.

How weird is that!

[Donal]

Wait, you mean a foreign government has people to preach its case to our government?

How dastardly.

[Oliver]

Wait, you mean a foreign government has people to preach its case to our government?

How dastardly.


I assume the discussion isn't about foreigners preaching to domestic people but rather about foreign interests opressing domestic people. Now I guess you don't mind about some fellow citizens anyway given your trivialization of them.

[WildCat]

SApeaking of foreign interests Freeman was in the pocket of Saudi Arabia and China. Oh, the irony!

[Oliver]

SApeaking of foreign interests Freeman was in the pocket of Saudi Arabia and China. Oh, the irony!


Does "being in China's and SA's pocket" mean that he actually got money to represent their interest or what are you at least trying to imply?

[Childlike Empress]

Ray McGovern, former senior analyst at the CIA, discusses the ebb and flow of neoconservative influence in the White House, how the scuttled Charles Freeman appointment weakens U.S. leverage with Israel, the incredible influence still exerted by Steven J. Rosen despite his indictment under the Espionage Act, the shortcomings of the mainstream media and how the 2007 National Intelligence Estimate on Iran prevented a disastrous war.

MP3 here (http://awr.dissentradio.com/09_03_12_mcgovern.mp3). (40:42)

Ray McGovern was a CIA analyst for 27 years, from the John F. Kennedy administration to that of George H. W. Bush. His articles appear on Consortium News and Antiwar.com.


Interesting interview done yesterday.

[Doctor Evil]

Found this (http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2009/03/11/why-freeman-got-the-boot.aspx) today:

Newsweek has an important story (http://www.newsweek.com/id/188725) today providing new details on why the Tiananmen Square Massacre enthusiast Chas Freeman was dropped as Chairman of the National Intelligence Council. The reason seems to be not, ultimately, his views on Israel, but his even more controversial statements on China.

Read the whole thing. It seems Pelosi was unhappy about his views on China and complained directly to Obama. More information is needed, but it seems possible that a lot of people have jumped the gun here.

[INRM]

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with Mr. Freeman...

However, I think there is a problem with a political lobby in this country manned by agents largely of another country or in either case seeking only to lobby for the benefits of another country...

And no I'm not labling Jews here. First of all this lobby pertains to ISRAEL -- a country, not a religion, and second of all, I would object if the lobby was manned predominantly by members of another country and was lobbying in the interests of that country while influencing our politics.


INRM

[webfusion]

Justin Raimondo takes a look at this subject in a looooonnnng article on AntiWar.com
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=14394

The Freeman affair has exposed the Israel lobby for precisely what they are: it has flushed them out of the woodwork, and brought them in from the shadows. That in itself is a great victory, one that means much more in the longterm than anyone presently imagines.

All in all, the Israelis will certainly have to proceed carefully with the USA over the coming 8 years, and Bibi Netanyahu no doubt understands that he has to walk a tightrope.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with Mr. Freeman...

However, I think there is a problem with a political lobby in this country manned by agents largely of another country or in either case seeking only to lobby for the benefits of another country...

And no I'm not labling Jews here. First of all this lobby pertains to ISRAEL -- a country, not a religion, and second of all, I would object if the lobby was manned predominantly by members of another country and was lobbying in the interests of that country while influencing our politics.


INRM

AIPAC isn't the only one.

There's

JINSA - Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs
I don't understand that one at all.

Washington Institute for Near East Policy
A Washington, DC-based think tank which concerns itself with U.S.-Middle East policy. It was founded in 1985 by Martin Indyk, a research director for AIPAC who would later be appointed U.S. Ambassador to Israel.

Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies
The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies (IASPS) is a Israel-based think tank with an affiliated office in Washington, D.C. n the US, IASPS has connections with the neoconservative movement in American politics.

I'm sure there's many more of these Israel based NGOs that are influencing US policy

[moon1969]

If he was libeled he could sue...

Maybe he should sue the russians since everybody knows that russians hate the jews. :mad:
I just can"t understand why jews are so supportive of Russia the evil empire. :mad:

[Thunder]

Maybe he should sue the russians since everybody knows that russians hate the jews. :mad:
I just can"t understand why jews are so supportive of Russia the evil empire. :mad:

I hate Putin. But I have nothing against Russia.

[malcolmxwarrior]

AIPAC isn't the only one.

There's

JINSA - Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs
I don't understand that one at all.

Washington Institute for Near East Policy
A Washington, DC-based think tank which concerns itself with U.S.-Middle East policy. It was founded in 1985 by Martin Indyk, a research director for AIPAC who would later be appointed U.S. Ambassador to Israel.

Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies
The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies (IASPS) is a Israel-based think tank with an affiliated office in Washington, D.C. n the US, IASPS has connections with the neoconservative movement in American politics.

I'm sure there's many more of these Israel based NGOs that are influencing US policy


Did you forget the ZOA?

[KoihimeNakamura]

ZOA?

[The Fool]

Good luck and best wishes to anybody who wants to lobby the US government on any topic they like. Certainly Australia and Australian aligned private organizations and action groups do exactly the same.

Hopefully this will also lessen the smearing of people that even suggest a pro right wing Israeli political lobby group even exists.

Of course they have to live with the reputation they may get due to their methods....but thats life.

and one other thing.....outside organizations should limit thier afforts to influencing the actions of the US administration. If they are actually attempting to influence the makeup of the administration with the motivation of putting the best interests of the US in any other position than number 1 then they should be quietly taken out the back and waterboarded until they confess....then shot. Or possibly shot then waterboarded if waterboarding is not allowed any more on live subjects.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Did you forget the ZOA?

I've no idea what the ZOA is. Never heard of it.

[Oliver]

Good luck and best wishes to anybody who wants to lobby the US government on any topic they like. Certainly Australia and Australian aligned private organizations and action groups do exactly the same.

Hopefully this will also lessen the smearing of people that even suggest a pro right wing Israeli political lobby group even exists.

Of course they have to live with the reputation they may get due to their methods....but thats life.

and one other thing.....outside organizations should limit thier afforts to influencing the actions of the US administration. If they are actually attempting to influence the makeup of the administration with the motivation of putting the best interests of the US in any other position than number 1 then they should be quietly taken out the back and waterboarded until they confess....then shot. Or possibly shot then waterboarded if waterboarding is not allowed any more on live subjects.


Well, what I see is that AIPAC and Co are continuously undermined from opposing opinions, step by step. So it will be just a matter of time until the bubble bursts and public opinion will shift towards own interests being more important than foreign ones and thus - AIPAC&Friends will lose all their influence in the long run anyway.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Well, what I see is that AIPAC and Co are continuously undermined from opposing opinions, step by step. So it will be just a matter of time until the bubble bursts and public opinion will shift towards own interests being more important than foreign ones and thus - AIPAC&Friends will lose all their influence in the long run anyway.

Everything comes to an end but this kind of influence has been around for a hundred years or more now.

The Internet is allowing a flow of information that is a huge order of magnitude larger than before so hopefully public awareness will reach into the mainstream who were previously blissfully unaware. They can't rely upon keeping a low profile anymore

[malcolmxwarrior]

I've no idea what the ZOA is. Never heard of it.

The zionist organization of America.

It's basically a racist hate organization.

[Thunder]

The zionist organization of America.

It's basically a racist hate organization.

Um......shouldn't that make you feel right at home?

[malcolmxwarrior]

Um......shouldn't that make you feel right at home?

Um, no.

What have the Israelis done for ME accept kill my countrymen and take my money?

I want my money Israelis. I want my frickin' money!

[Thunder]

Um, no.

What have the Israelis done for ME accept kill my countrymen and take my money?

I want my money Israelis. I want my frickin' money!

many nations around the world recieve aid from the USA.

we helped rebuild Europe after WW2. do u want your money back from them too?

[malcolmxwarrior]

many nations around the world recieve aid from the USA.

we helped rebuild Europe after WW2. do u want your money back from them too?

I got my money back from them already bro.

Israel doesn't have an economy.

Well I take that back. Their economy consists of organized crime, ecstasy trafficking uzi trafficking, prostitution rings, child porn rings etc. There economy is based on terror, crime, and war. You would think that in land where jesus, muhammad and moses once set foot, they would treat as such, you know, a HOLY place?

Now don't get me wrong, there can be an Israel, but not THIS Israel. THIS Israel is bad for the world. Apartheid has no place in the 21st century. We got rid of ours in the 60's.

[Thunder]

I got my money back from them already bro.

Israel doesn't have an economy.

Well I take that back. Their economy consists of organized crime, ecstasy trafficking uzi trafficking, prostitution rings, child porn rings etc. There economy is based on terror, crime, and war. You would think that in land where jesus, muhammad and moses once set foot, they would treat as such, you know, a HOLY place?

Now don't get me wrong, there can be an Israel, but not THIS Israel. THIS Israel is bad for the world. Apartheid has no place in the 21st century. We got rid of ours in the 60's.

what is your solution to the problem of Israel and all the Jews in the USA?

[Slayhamlet]

I got my money back from them already bro.

Israel doesn't have an economy.

Well I take that back. Their economy consists of organized crime, ecstasy trafficking uzi trafficking, prostitution rings, child porn rings etc. There economy is based on terror, crime, and war.

:dl:

Wow, racist antiSemites are so dumb it's (almost) funny!

You would think that in land where jesus, muhammad and moses once set foot, they would treat as such, you know, a HOLY place?


Mohamed and Moses never set foot in Israel.

[Doctor Evil]

Mohamed and Moses never set foot in Israel.

If we believe the bible, and that is a big if, Moses did pass through part of what is now Israel. Most likely the desert in the south.

Why? Well, he passed from Sinai to the area which is not Jordan by land, so he must have crossed some part of modern Israel.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Yeah, Abraham and all those religious guys set foot there.

[malcolmxwarrior]

what is your solution to the problem of Israel and all the Jews in the USA?

I thought I already told you?

As far as Israel is concerned, they need to change their evil ways. As far as the ones that call themselves jews. Guys like greenspan. They need to be tried for fraud. GUys like madoff and the mossad with their sayanim. THese people need to be brought to justice.

The powers that be, the jews, the NWO etc. They need to be in prison to serve the rest of their days. When you break the law, you go to jail.

[malcolmxwarrior]

:dl:

Wow, racist antiSemites are so dumb it's (almost) funny!



Mohamed and Moses never set foot in Israel.

I can speak. And I am not against arabs. So I can not be Anti-semitic.

You don't know anything about Israel's economy so be quiet.

Watch this clip. Even though I don't care for this guy too much on account of the fact that he got malcolm killed he makes a lot of good points.

bl13wd70ZSg

[Oliver]

Any updates yet concering the issue?

[webfusion]

The Internet is allowing a flow of information that is a huge order of magnitude larger than before so hopefully public awareness will reach into the mainstream who were previously blissfully unaware. They (AIPAC) can't rely upon keeping a low profile anymore.

Low profile? Are you '****** kidding?

AIPAC is arguably the most high-profile lobbying group in Washington DC.

http://www.jewishcincinnati.org/display_image.aspx?id=183999

[Thunder]

I can speak. And I am not against arabs. So I can not be Anti-semitic. ]

Fine. Have it your way. You are not "anti-Semitic".

But your posts make it very clear that you hate Jews.

[NobbyNobbs]

I thought I already told you?

As far as Israel is concerned, they need to change their evil ways. As far as the ones that call themselves jews. Guys like greenspan. They need to be tried for fraud. GUys like madoff and the mossad with their sayanim. THese people need to be brought to justice.

The powers that be, the jews, the NWO etc. They need to be in prison to serve the rest of their days. When you break the law, you go to jail.

I call myself Jewish. What particular charges of fraud would you have me brought up on?

[TriskettheKid]

I call myself Jewish. What particular charges of fraud would you have me brought up on?

He's gonna call us up on charges of fraud because we don't wear our horns in public.

Or whatever antisemitic dribble he's going to come up with.

I guarantee that, if given enough time, he's going to claim that we also murder innocent Christian children to get their blood in order to make our matzot.

Because, you know, that's TOTALLY true.

[NobbyNobbs]

He's gonna call us up on charges of fraud because we don't wear our horns in public.

Or whatever antisemitic dribble he's going to come up with.

I guarantee that, if given enough time, he's going to claim that we also murder innocent Christian children to get their blood in order to make our matzot.

Because, you know, that's TOTALLY true.

Actually, I find Unitarians more to my taste.

:D

[malcolmxwarrior]

Fine. Have it your way. You are not "anti-Semitic".

But your posts make it very clear that you hate Jews.

They hate me. I don't hate them. We all know that not all jews are bad.

But the "neocons", the "zionists", The pharisees. They all refer to themselves as "jews".

Jesus hated 'em, malcolm x wasn't to fond of 'em and they cause trouble wherever they go.

I wonder what would happen if the united states rounded up all the jews in their country and sent them to china. I bet "Anti-Semitism" jumps through the roof!

Wherever the jews go, they bring their "Anti-semitism". Those darn "anti-semites"! Always hating those murderers and liars. Seeing them collapse economies like greenspan and bernanke.

They hate the jews because they're free and rich. Duh!

Anyway, according to my book(new testament), it doesn't work out for you guys, I guess a bunch of you die :(

But then everybody dies. At third die by this, and a third die by this Etc. Etc.

Wp1yfWT9d6M

[Thunder]

They hate me. I don't hate them. We all know that not all jews are bad.

But the "neocons", the "zionists", The pharisees. They all refer to themselves as "jews".

Jesus hated 'em, malcolm x wasn't to fond of 'em and they cause trouble wherever they go.

I wonder what would happen if the united states rounded up all the jews in their country and sent them to china. I bet "Anti-Semitism" jumps through the roof!

Wherever the jews go, they bring their "Anti-semitism". Those darn "anti-semites"! Always hating those murderers and liars. Seeing them collapse economies like greenspan and bernanke.

They hate the jews because they're free and rich. Duh!

Anyway, according to my book(new testament), it doesn't work out for you guys, I guess a bunch of you die :(

But then everybody dies. At third die by this, and a third die by this Etc. Etc.

Wp1yfWT9d6M

I sense a great deal of psychological problems.

[malcolmxwarrior]

I sense a great deal of psychological problems.

I'm not the one that goes into my neighbors house, breaks their windows and yells "anti-semitism" .

You steal from your neighbor, he hits you in the face and then you yell "why do they do this?" "they must be anti-semites"

I'm no shrink or anything (because most shrinks are jews), but I think that is the definition of a psychopath. They're never wrong Etc.

6RjnvQHWyLE&feature=related

[Thunder]

I'm not the one that goes into my neighbors house, breaks their windows and yells "anti-semitism" .

You steal from your neighbor, he hits you in the face and then you yell "why do they do this?" "they must be anti-semites"

6RjnvQHWyLE&feature=related

Who the hell are you talking about???

Someone broke your neighbors house and yelled "anti-Semitism"???

What's that got to do with me and the other 14 million Jews on Earth?

Like I said, real psychological problems.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Who the hell are you talking about???

Someone broke your neighbors house and yelled "anti-Semitism"???

What's that got to do with me and the other 14 million Jews on Earth?

Like I said, real psychological problems.

Those are all analogies stupid.

Not all Jews are bad. Bobby Fischer is a jew. Both if his parents were jewish.

This is very vulgar. Viewer discretion is advised.

Q9E1k56SRL8


6Lu7pe4YLxI&feature=related

[Thunder]

Those are all analogies stupid.

Not all Jews are bad. Bobby Fischer is a jew. Both if his parents were jewish.

This is very vulgar. Viewer discretion is advised.

Q9E1k56SRL8

Bobby Fischer is a self-hating Jew. He must be your hero.

Oh, I forgot about Benjamin Freedman.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Bobby Fischer is a self-hating Jew. He must be your hero.

Oh, I forgot about Benjamin Freedman.

Jack Bernstein.

You never hear the term "self-hating mexicans" or "self-hating poles".

[Thunder]

Jack Bernstein.

You never hear the term "self-hating mexicans" or "self-hating poles".

I have known many people who were not fond of their ethnic heritage. My friend is Chinese and he believes in many negative Chinese sterotypes.

[malcolmxwarrior]

I have known many people who were not fond of their ethnic heritage. My friend is Chinese and he believes in many negative Chinese sterotypes.

That's nice.

[NobbyNobbs]

They hate me.

How did you ever find the time to poll every Jew in the world and get their opinion of you?



But the "neocons", ....... They all refer to themselves as "jews".

:jaw-dropp

Jesus hated 'em,

Well, I guess that answers the question "What would Jesus do?" Hate 'em.


I wonder what would happen if the united states rounded up all the jews in their country and sent them to china. I bet "Anti-Semitism" jumps through the roof!

Wherever the jews go, they bring their "Anti-semitism". Those darn "anti-semites"! Always hating those murderers and liars.

Yeah, imagine that. Anti-semites only exist where there are Semites around to be hated. Weird. :rolleyes:

They hate the jews because they're free and rich. Duh!

Yeah, because we all know that those Russian Jews prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain were so free and rich....

[malcolmxwarrior]

How did you ever find the time to poll every Jew in the world and get their opinion of you?





:jaw-dropp



Well, I guess that answers the question "What would Jesus do?" Hate 'em.




Yeah, imagine that. Anti-semites only exist where there are Semites around to be hated. Weird. :rolleyes:



Yeah, because we all know that those Russian Jews prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain were so free and rich....


You took what I said out of context.

Yeah dude and they only hate you because they're jealous. (sarcasm)

They hate you because you guys are liars cheats thieves and murderers. You commit usury which is against the torah and you have no loyalty but to gold and silver.

[TriskettheKid]

You took what I said out of context.

Yeah dude and they only hate you because they're jealous. (sarcasm)

They hate you because you guys are liars cheats thieves and murderers. You commit usury which is against the torah and you have no loyalty but to gold and silver.

Right.

That's OBVIOUSLY why they hate us.

And forgive me if I'm not going to be given a theology lesson on the Torah from a guy who denies something that he is told in his very own New Testament.

[NobbyNobbs]

They hate you because you guys are liars cheats thieves and murderers. You commit usury which is against the torah and you have no loyalty but to gold and silver.

You have just accused me of 6 things.

1)You say I am a liar. What lie have I told?
2) You say I am a cheat. In what way have I cheated?
3) You say I am a thief. What have I stolen?
4) You say I am a murderer. Who have I killed?
5) You say I commit usury. What interest rate am I getting?
6) You say my only loyalty is to money. Why am I barely able to make ends meet?

I look forward to clear and concise answers to these six questions.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

You took what I said out of context.

Yeah dude and they only hate you because they're jealous. (sarcasm)

They hate you because you guys are liars cheats thieves and murderers. You commit usury which is against the torah and you have no loyalty but to gold and silver.

malcolmxwarrior: I am a strong criticizer of the racist atrocities coimmited by the Zionist Movement and the policies of Israel.

I also have the intelligence and respect to not blame those atrocities on an entire group of people.

Your racism is vile. period!!! :mad:

[Thunder]

malcolmxwarrior: I am a strong criticizer of the racist atrocities coimmited by the Zionist Movement and the policies of Israel.

I also have the intelligence and respect to not blame those atrocities on an entire group of people.

Your racism is vile. period!!! :mad:

His racism is disgusting. He calls people "Jew-lovers". He thinks all Rabbis suck blood from babies penises.

His racism is vile.

[Thunder]

They hate you because you guys are liars cheats thieves and murderers. You commit usury which is against the torah and you have no loyalty but to gold and silver.

I have cheated no one.
I have stolen from no one.
I have killed no one.

I am loyal to the United States of America, our Constitution, and the principles of freedom and democracy.

You, on the other hand, are full of hate and poison. I pitty you.

[malcolmxwarrior]

I have cheated no one.
I have stolen from no one.
I have killed no one.

I am loyal to the United States of America, our Constitution, and the principles of freedom and democracy.

You, on the other hand, are full of hate and poison. I pitty you.

I make the generalizations to get my point across. I have made the comment that not all jews are bad. That goes without saying. That is why it is most important for you honest decent jews to have a louder voice then the racist hating jews.

Besides, if golda meir says their is no such thing as a Palestinian and gets away with it, then I will take her one step further and say there is no such thing as a jewish race. There is no longer a judea so nobody can call themselves a jewish race. They could be of the jewish faith but not be a race.

This isn't the perfect analogy but all of the many different tribes in North America no longer exist. They were wiped out. So now there are no more of those ancient tribes. There are all Americans.

Now this is not technically true, the mainstream ones are still around because of the casinos but think of the countless other tribes that were not as big that got cleaned out. [/rant

[NobbyNobbs]

You have just accused me of 6 things.

1)You say I am a liar. What lie have I told?
2) You say I am a cheat. In what way have I cheated?
3) You say I am a thief. What have I stolen?
4) You say I am a murderer. Who have I killed?
5) You say I commit usury. What interest rate am I getting?
6) You say my only loyalty is to money. Why am I barely able to make ends meet?

I look forward to clear and concise answers to these six questions.


Generalization or not, you said "you" and "you guys", which includes me. You have leveled accusations against me. Either back them up, or retract them and apologize.

To call one person a liar, a cheat, a thief and a murderer is to be an accuser. To generalize it to the whole community that person belongs to is to be a racist.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Generalization or not, you said "you" and "you guys", which includes me. You have leveled accusations against me. Either back them up, or retract them and apologize.

To call one person a liar, a cheat, a thief and a murderer is to be an accuser. To generalize it to the whole community that person belongs to is to be a racist.

I don't know you so a generalization is a generalization. YOu could be all of the above for all I know.

Hell, for all I know, every single member of JREF could be Mossad looking for people like me and then Murdering me.

[NobbyNobbs]

I don't know you so a generalization is a generalization. YOu could be all of the above for all I know.

Hell, for all I know, every single member of JREF could be Mossad looking for people like me and then Murdering me.

So, you not only admit to being a racist, but a paranoid racist.

[malcolmxwarrior]

So, you not only admit to being a racist, but a paranoid racist.

No because the jews are not a race. They are a religion. Christians are not a race, buddhists are not a race, muslims are not a race.

The only people that want jews to be a race are crazy racist zionists who want what the nazis wanted but worse.

They want a one world zionist government where they all rule from Israel.

They are the ones that are the racists

[Thunder]

Hell, for all I know, every single member of JREF could be Mossad looking for people like me and then Murdering me.

Ever heard of paranoia?

[Thunder]

That is why it is most important for you honest decent jews to have a louder voice then the racist hating jews.

[/rant

People like you are the reason why racist Jews exist in the first place. 2,000 years of irrational anti-Semitism can lead to Jews not being fond of European Christians.

[malcolmxwarrior]

People like you are the reason why racist Jews exist in the first place. 2,000 years of irrational anti-Semitism can lead to Jews not being fond of European Christians.

Yeah ok.

Keep defending the psychosis.

[TriskettheKid]

Yeah ok.

Keep defending the psychosis.

Doesn't it tick you off that we're still here?

We've survived Inquisitions, pogroms, the Shoah, and 2000 years of being kicked out of most countries we've entered.

Yet we're still here. And everyone that's hated us has failed in getting rid of us.

That must really tick off people like you.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Doesn't it tick you off that we're still here?

We've survived Inquisitions, pogroms, the Shoah, and 2000 years of being kicked out of most countries we've entered.

Yet we're still here. And everyone that's hated us has failed in getting rid of us.

That must really tick off people like you.

What ticks me off is that you guys think that you can rule the world and my people are dying for you guys in Iraq and now you want us to get Iran and you were responsible for 9/11 and I have not forgiven you vipers for the attack on the USS liberty!

[malcolmxwarrior]

When you break your neighbors windows and when he retaliates and you yell anti-semitism. THAT IS PSYCHOSIS!

[TriskettheKid]

What ticks me off is that you guys think that you can rule the world and my people are dying for you guys in Iraq and now you want us to get Iran and you were responsible for 9/11 and I have not forgiven you vipers for the attack on the USS liberty!

Christ, there was so much pent up antisemitic craziness in that post that I just laughed myself out of my chair.

[KoihimeNakamura]

... I didn't know people could attack ships before they were born.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Christ, there was so much pent up antisemitic craziness in that post that I just laughed myself out of my chair.

That's nice.

Israel wanted us in Iraq and now 4000+ american soldiers are dead and million of Iraqis are dead, and worst of all they blame the USA. They don't blame the jews, they blame the USA.

As long as they got a name in front of their madness.

"neocon", "zionist". "NWO" "illuminati"

As long as you don't blame the jews. =(

[dirtywick]

That's nice.

Israel wanted us in Iraq and now 4000+ american soldiers are dead and million of Iraqis are dead, and worst of all they blame the USA. They don't blame the jews, they blame the USA.

As long as they got a name in front of their madness.

"neocon", "zionist". "NWO" "illuminati"

As long as you don't blame the jews. =(

Now that's not true. It's obvious at least one person blames the jews.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Now that's not true. It's obvious at least one person blames the jews.

I'm in good company actually.

Ben franklin, george washinton, cicero, martin luther,winston churchill, CHarles lindbergh, Henry Ford, Malcolm X, Voltaire, Jesus Chirst, and many many others.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

His racism is disgusting. He calls people "Jew-lovers". He thinks all Rabbis suck blood from babies penises.

His racism is vile.

People with views like malcolmxwarrior are the reason why we have a world with too many atrocities.

The people persecuting the Palestinians have views like malcolmxwarrior. The people organizing sanctions and invasions and causing the slaughter of millions are like malcolmxwarrior. People who implement apartheid and ghettoisation have views like people like malcolmxwarrior. It's people with views like that of malcolmxwarrior which orders conscripts from the IDF to murder Palestinian women and children.

Everytime it's sectarianist hatred and the power and greed from superiority over the other.

Why can't everyone have a care for humanity. Sadly even in this forum we see proof that there's many that don't.

[malcolmxwarrior]

People with views like malcolmxwarrior are the reason why we have a world with too many atrocities.

The people persecuting the Palestinians have views like malcolmxwarrior. The people organizing sanctions and invasions and causing the slaughter of millions are like malcolmxwarrior. People who implement apartheid and ghettoisation have views like people like malcolmxwarrior. It's people with views like that of malcolmxwarrior which orders conscripts from the IDF to murder Palestinian women and children.

Everytime it's sectarianist hatred and the power and greed from superiority over the other.

Why can't everyone have a care for humanity. Sadly even in this forum we see proof that there's many that don't.

Not true.

All lies.

I don't condone violence.

[Darth Rotor]

For those of you actually interested in Freeman, and not malcom's nonsense, you might get some entertainment from Pat Buchanan's commentary on Freeman's running into a wall during Obama's attempts to put his experience to work.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29739446/

Buchanan has an axe to grind over AIPAC, IIRC, but if you take that into consideration, his rant is still decent read from a voice rarely seen here.

To understand why he might be worth the read for some of you: he's actually been in the trenches in the American political scene: Nixon administration funcitonary, and in his own efforts as pundit and presidential hopeful, doomed as it was. Long exposure to the environment can be a good learning method.

Does everything he say drip of golden wisdom?

Nah.

I recall being put off by his slavish worship of the free market back when he was running for President, among other things. Also, his over the top nativist hat seems to have passed to Lou Dobbs.



DR

[Thunder]

Not true.

All lies.

I don't condone violence.

Do you want all the "Zionists" to be kicked out of the USA?

[Thunder]

I'm in good company actually.

Ben franklin, george washinton, cicero, martin luther,winston churchill, CHarles lindbergh, Henry Ford, Malcolm X, Voltaire, Jesus Chirst, and many many others.

Jesus Christ hated Jews soooo much..that he died for our sins. That's what I call hatred.

[Darth Rotor]

Jesus Christ hated Jews soooo much..that he died for our sins. That's what I call hatred.
Uh, not just for you nice Jewish folks, I hear, but for everyone. I suspect the rest of this conversation belongs at R & P, so I won't go for the derail.

DR

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Do you want all the "Zionists" to be kicked out of the USA?

The government and the Oligarchy would have to be rebuilt from scratch if that happened.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Not true.

All lies.

I don't condone violence.

You might want to observe that your views promote the sectarianism and racism that lead to violence. Blaming whole groups of people for the atrocities of just some of them is always going to stir up hatred.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Do you want all the "Zionists" to be kicked out of the USA?

Would that bother you?

How many zionists do you think are in the USA?

[Thunder]

Would that bother you?

How many zionists do you think are in the USA?

How many Zionists are there in the USA? Well, since a Zionist is someone who recognizes the existence of the State of Israel and defends their right to exist, that would be about..um....maybe 50 million people in the USA alone.

[malcolmxwarrior]

How many Zionists are there in the USA? Well, since a Zionist is someone who recognizes the existence of the State of Israel and defends their right to exist, that would be about..um....maybe 50 million people in the USA alone.

Are you sure?

You don't have to be a member of AIPAC or ZOA Etc. ?

You don't have to send money to aforementioned groups?

Joe biden calls himself a zionist. but I don't think he give money to zionist groups?

But I wouldn't mind if joe biden pissed off.

[Thunder]

Are you sure?

You don't have to be a member of AIPAC or ZOA Etc. ?

.

You are confusing someone who holds Zionist views, with someone who is an active member of a Zionist organization.

[NobbyNobbs]

No because the jews are not a race. They are a religion. Christians are not a race, buddhists are not a race, muslims are not a race.

The only people that want jews to be a race are crazy racist zionists who want what the nazis wanted but worse.

They want a one world zionist government where they all rule from Israel.

They are the ones that are the racists

So I suppose that I'm crazy, racist, and Zionist. Apparently I want what the Nazis want but worse. It would seem I want Israel to rule the world.

How do you know so much about me?

What ticks me off is that you guys think that you can rule the world and my people are dying for you guys in Iraq and now you want us to get Iran and you were responsible for 9/11 and I have not forgiven you vipers for the attack on the USS liberty!

I can never find the laughing dog when I really need it....

That's nice.

Israel wanted us in Iraq and now 4000+ american soldiers are dead and million of Iraqis are dead, and worst of all they blame the USA.

We're there because Israel wanted us there? To paraphrase my mother, if Israel wanted us to jump off a bridge, would we?

I'm in good company actually.

Ben franklin, george washinton, cicero, martin luther,winston churchill, CHarles lindbergh, Henry Ford, Malcolm X, Voltaire, Jesus Chirst, and many many others.

I was aware that Charles Lindberg and Henry Ford were antisemitic. Would you mind providing cites for the others?

[Darth Rotor]

You are confusing someone who holds Zionist views, with someone who is an active member of a Zionist organization.

Maybe he thinks you are a disinfo agent. :D

[Oliver]

Haaretz just published an interesting article about the issue:

The pro-Israel lobby - 'alive and well, and bipartisan?' (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1073714.html) http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif
Outspoken Israel critic Chas Freeman's pressured withdrawal from the National Intelligence Council is stirring a new debate over what role the U.S. should take in the Mideast... [read on (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1073714.html)]

[malcolmxwarrior]

I was aware that Charles Lindberg and Henry Ford were antisemitic. Would you mind providing cites for the others?

No. Get 'em yourself.

How is somebody an anti-semite? What would be the general consensus of someone who is an Anti-semite?

Elaborate. Explain yourselves. If your wack definition of the word is someone who hates jews then I don't think there are many people who fit that definition.

Ok, Hitler. And that's probably it. Is Walt Disney an Anti-semite?

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Haaretz just published an interesting article about the issue:

Interesting article....


"Mearsheimer sees the situation as nuanced. "The Freeman issue had a significant influence on how people think; it had some influence on the discourse - and almost none on how policy is made," he told the Forward.

Mearsheimer praised the Internet as the main force promoting a new sense of openness on this issue. He condemned the mainstream media as "hopeless." "

This is true. The mainstream media are frightened of addressing the issue whilst the grass roots Internet forum of debate is tackling the issues head on. This particular forum is a great example of where people of all sides are engaging in debate over both the Israel Lobby and the behavior of the Zionist movement and Israel itself.

Whatever one's views the great thing is that it's being increasingly debated without the stifling by shouting Anti-Semite every 3 seconds!!!