Is There 'Rhyme' In The English Language Only?

[Always Free]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering about this earlier this week. As I don't speak any other languages or hear them very often, does anyone know of another language that rhymes the way english does?

For example, the lyrics in songs usually have rhyming words at the end of the sentences, as does a lot of the words of poetry. It gives a groovy (for want of a better word) flow to the songs and words, yes?

Is the english language unique in its 'ability' to rhyme and if not, are there any web sites that I could see an example of other language rhyme?

Thanks.:)

[MRC_Hans]

Rhyme is known in all Western languages, that is, languages that originate in Latin and Germanic languages. That is to say, the same type of end-of word similarity rhyme as in English.

There are other verse structures around.

Hans

[Always Free]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Rhyme is known in all Western languages, that is, languages that originate in Latin and Germanic languages. That is to say, the same type of end-of word similarity rhyme as in English.

There are other verse structures around.

Hans

Do you have an example of a poem or a song from one of these languages? Perhaps in French or Italian?

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Always Free


Do you have an example of a poem or a song from one of these languages? Perhaps in French or Italian?

There are lots of them.

For example, in German:

Zu Gott einst sprachen die Zitronen:
"Wir wollen groß sein, wie Melonen!
Auch finden wir das Gelb abscheulich -
wir wollen rot sein, or bläulich."
Doch Gott sprach: "Geht nicht, ich bedauer´."
Da wurden die Zitronen sauer.

That´s part of a poem, "Wie die Zitronen sauer wurden" (How the lemon turned sour), by Heinz Ehrhardt. It translates:

Once, the lemons spoke to god:
"We want to be as big as melons!
And we find this yellos horrible -
We want to be red, or blueish."
But god spoke: "Impossible, I regret to say."
That was when the lemons turned sour.

[Always Free]

Originally posted by Chaos


There are lots of them.

For example, in German:

Zu Gott einst sprachen die Zitronen:
"Wir wollen groß sein, wie Melonen!
Auch finden wir das Gelb abscheulich -
wir wollen rot sein, or bläulich."
Doch Gott sprach: "Geht nicht, ich bedauer´."
Da wurden die Zitronen sauer.

That´s part of a poem, "Wie die Zitronen sauer wurden" (How the lemon turned sour), by Heinz Ehrhardt. It translates:

Once, the lemons spoke to god:
"We want to be as big as melons!
And we find this yellos horrible -
We want to be red, or blueish."
But god spoke: "Impossible, I regret to say."
That was when the lemons turned sour.

Wow! Do you have a couple more poems handy or maybe a song?:)

[Luciana]

AlwaysFree: a sonnet, in Portuguese, from Portuguese poet Luís de Camões.


Amor é fogo que arde sem se ver

Amor é fogo que arde sem se ver;
É ferida que dói e não se sente;
É um contentamento descontente;
É dor que desatina sem doer.

É um não querer mais que bem querer;
É solitário andar por entre a gente;
É nunca contentar-se de contente;
É cuidar que se ganha em se perder;

É querer estar preso por vontade;
É servir a quem vence, o vencedor;
É ter com quem nos mata lealdade.

Mas como causar pode seu favor
Nos corações humanos amizade,
Se tão contrário a si é o mesmo Amor?

Luís de Camões

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
AlwaysFree: a sonnet, in Portuguese, from Portuguese poet Luís de Camões.


Amor é fogo que arde sem se ver

Amor é fogo que arde sem se ver;
É ferida que dói e não se sente;
É um contentamento descontente;
É dor que desatina sem doer.

É um não querer mais que bem querer;
É solitário andar por entre a gente;
É nunca contentar-se de contente;
É cuidar que se ganha em se perder;

É querer estar preso por vontade;
É servir a quem vence, o vencedor;
É ter com quem nos mata lealdade.

Mas como causar pode seu favor
Nos corações humanos amizade,
Se tão contrário a si é o mesmo Amor?

Luís de Camões

Portuguese rhymes on the first letter? :)

[Always Free]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
AlwaysFree: a sonnet, in Portuguese, from Portuguese poet Luís de Camões.


Amor é fogo que arde sem se ver

Amor é fogo que arde sem se ver;
É ferida que dói e não se sente;
É um contentamento descontente;
É dor que desatina sem doer.

É um não querer mais que bem querer;
É solitário andar por entre a gente;
É nunca contentar-se de contente;
É cuidar que se ganha em se perder;

É querer estar preso por vontade;
É servir a quem vence, o vencedor;
É ter com quem nos mata lealdade.

Mas como causar pode seu favor
Nos corações humanos amizade,
Se tão contrário a si é o mesmo Amor?

Luís de Camões

Thanks Luciana, can you provide a translation?

Too bad I can't hear the words to know how they are pronounced.

[LW]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Rhyme is known in all Western languages, that is, languages that originate in Latin and Germanic languages.

Add in Finno-Ugric and Slavonic languages, too, and probably most of those spoken in Asia, also.

Orginally posted by CFLarsen
Portuguese rhymes on the first letter?

Old Finnish verse (so-called "Kalevala metre") rhymes on the first syllable of the words, as in:

Vaka vanha Väinämöinen

[Marc]

I would think it is possible to rhyme in any language. All you need is words that sound alike to use. It would be a strange language indeed if no two words sounded alike.

As I learned from anime puns are pretty much universal. (and can be universaly bad too. :p ) In Maison Ikkoku the character's names relate to their room numbers. In Urusei Yatsura most of the character's names are puns, extensive liner notes come with the episodes to try and explain the dozens of jokes that might not translate well.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by Always Free
Wow! Do you have a couple more poems handy or maybe a song?:)

Not a poem, but the first few lines of Johann Wolfgang von Goethe's FAUST.

Ihr nahet euch wieder, schwankende Gestalten,
Die früh sich einst dem trüben Blick gezeigt.
Versuch' ich wohl euch diesmal festzuhalten?
Fühl ich mein Herz noch jenem Wahn geneigt?
Ihr drängt euch zu! nun gut, so mögt ihr walten,
Wie ihr aus Dunst und Nebel zu mir steigt;
Mein Busen fühlt sich jugendlich erchütteret
Vom Zauberhauch, der euren Zug umwittert.

Or parts the of lyrics, which originally are taken from a poem of Schiller, of the 4th movent of the 9th Symphony of Ludwig van Beethoven: (link) (http://www.assamites.de/odetojoy.html)

Freude, Schöner Götterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuer-trunken,
Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!

Deine Zauber binden wieder,
Was die Mode streng geteilt;
Alle Menschen werden Brüder,
Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

Freude, Schöner Götterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuer-trunken,
Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!

Deine Zauber binden wieder,
Was die Mode streng geteilt;
Alle Menschen werden Brüder,
Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

Wem der grosse Wurf gelungen,
Eines Freundes Freund zu sein,
Wer ein holdes Weib errungen,
Mische seinen Jubel ein!

Ja, wer auch nur eine Seele
Sein nennt auf dem Erdenrund!
Und wer's nie gekonnt, der stehle
Weinend sich aus diesem Bund!

[Always Free]

Originally posted by Marc
I would think it is possible to rhyme in any language. All you need is words that sound alike to use. It would be a strange language indeed if no two words sounded alike

After I thought about what you said here and looked at the examples given of rhyming by everyone, you are logically right.

I suppose there are many ways to rhyme---

Roses are Red
Violets are Blue
Sugar is Sweet
And so are You

---in any language. The translation will have different words but the meaning should be the same.

[roger]

rhyme in many languages is much easier to do than in English.

For example, in Japanese, verbs are placed at the end of the sentence or phrase.

For example, "I am running to the store" is more or less ordered as "I store to the running". Since verb endings are very regular, it's trivial to rhyme just about anything you want to say (trivial compared to English)

[El Greco]

Greek rhymes better than English, because we also have rhymes for "purple" and "orange" :D

[roger]

orange <> door hinge

:D

[roger]

violets are purple,
and protected, too,
$50 fine per pull
from the public loo!

Yes, I am a poetic genius.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Always Free


Do you have an example of a poem or a song from one of these languages? Perhaps in French or Italian?

Sympathique by Pink Martini:

Ma chambre a la forme d'une cage
Le soleil passe son bras par la fenjtre
Les chasseurs ` ma porte
Comme les p'tits soldats
Qui veulent me prendre
Je ne veux pas travailler
Je ne veux pas dijeuner
Je veux seulement l'oublier
Et puis je fume
Dij` j'ai connu le parfum de l'amour
Un million de roses n'embaumerait pas autant
Maintenant une seule fleur dans mes entourages
Me rend malade
Je ne veux pas travailler
Je ne veux pas dijeuner
Je veux seulement l'oublier
Et puis je fume
Je ne suis pas fihre de ga
Vie qui veut me tuer
C'est magnifique jtre sympathique
Mais je ne le connais jamais
Je ne veux pas travailler
Non
Je ne veux pas dijeuner
Je veux seulement l'oublier
Et puis je fume
Je ne suis pas fihre de ga
Vie qui veut me tuer
C'est magnifique jtre sympathique
Mais je ne le connais jamais
Je ne veux pas travailler
Non
Je ne veux pas dijeuner
Je veux seulement l'oublier
Et puis je fume

(some of that French looks spelt wrong, btw. I'm sure dijeuner should be dejuener)

This bit:
Je ne veux pas travailler
Je ne veux pas dijeuner
Je veux seulement l'oublier
Et puis je fume

Means:

I do not want to work
I do not want lunch
I just want to forget
And then I smoke.

(the first three lines all rhyme with each other)

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Always Free

Is the english language unique in its 'ability' to rhyme and if not, are there any web sites that I could see an example of other language rhyme?

Thanks.:)

It's so easy in Italian. There are three verb classes. All verbs for a given class rhyme for a given inflection, to the extent that the conjugation is regular.

And of course there are plenty of other rhymes too.

Volare, o o,
Cantare, o o o...

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by roger
orange <> door hinge

:D

Not in my dialect. But then neither do "dog" and "fog".

Advice to Inge by Abdul Alhazred:

You won't go far, Inge
By turning orange,
But a hearty burp 'll
Turn you purple

(Yeah it would've been "Ing-eh" back in Sweden, but she's an American now.)

:p

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by LW
Vaka vanha Väinämöinen

By the shores of Gitchee Gumee
By the shining big sea water ;)

[Suezoled]

Japanese words rhyme a lot. But the measure of a good poem in Japan is not its rhyme, but the way words are used

[Halbert]

I can say that there were rhymes used in the same sense in Fantsi (a subdialect of twi, an african language used by the Ashanti tribe).

[gjones2]

Faust's first monologue also contains a memorable rhymed passage:

<pre>
Habe nun, ach! Philosophie, I have, alas, studied philosophy,
Juristerei und Medizin, Jurisprudence and medicine too,
Und leider auch Theologie! And, worst of all, theology
Durchaus studiert, mit heißem Bemühn. with keen endeavor, through and through --
Da steh ich nun, ich armer Tor! And here I am, for all my lore,
Und bin so klug als wie zuvor... The wretched fool I was before...
[Walter Kaufmann's translation]
</pre>

This is the first time I've ever posted with the software used at this forum, so please excuse any posts that look strange. (This one is supposed to show the German and English neatly arranged in two columns.)

[gjones2]

I enjoyed the poem about the lemons, which I don't recall having seen before. (A minor detail: the title "Wie die ZitroneN sauer wurdeN" is plural -- How the Lemons Turned Sour.)

[epepke]

The clearest example in Spanish I know

Da bienes Fortuna
que no estan escritos,
Cuando pitos, flautas.
Cuando flautas, pitos.

Cuan diversas sendas
Suele seguir
En el repartir
De honras y haciendas
A unos da encomiendas
A otros sambeintos.
Cuando pitos, flautas.
Cuando flautas, pitos.

Porque en una aldea
Un pobre mancebo
Hurto solo un huevo
Al sol bambolea
Y otro se pasea
Con cien mil delitos
Cuando pitos, flautas.
Cuando flautas, pitos.

That's all I can remember right now.

Incidentally, Spanish poetry is unusual because it is not metric but rather syllabic in structure. I picked an example that sounds more metric than most, but as spoken, each line has exactly six syllables when counted according to a specific algorithm used for nearly all Spanish poetry. There are three rules:

1) If a word ends in a vowel sound and the next word starts with a vowel sound, they count as one syllable.

2) Sometimes dipthongs count as two syllables (as in "suele" above).

3) If a line ends in a stressed syllable, there's an implied syllable of silence after it.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Marc
I would think it is possible to rhyme in any language. All you need is words that sound alike to use. It would be a strange language indeed if no two words sounded alike.
The problem with rhyming in Japanese is that the verb comes at the end of the sentence, so you end up with everything ending in the same "-masu". There have been attempts at writing Japanese poetry witht he last word rhyming, but they're not very good.

[Bluegill]

I'd be interested in seeing the discussion broaden to subjects other than rhyming. Are there any features of a language that are akin to rhyming, but that don't exist in English?

A few nights ago I was discussing ASL with my wife (neither of us have much knowledge of it, but she learned a little at a seminar and also remembered some she learned when she was little.) Of course, in a sign language, there is no rhyming. But then we started wondering about stuff that is akin to rhyming, and I'm sure there are amazing aesthetic doors open to ASL users that non-signers have no concept of. Think of the ways you could subtly alter the way you sign a word in order to convey a double-meaning, a pun, or link it to another sign. It's made me interested in reading more on the subject.

I don't mean to make this post only about ASL or other sign languages. Does anyone have any examples of other things along those lines?

Anyone see the news articles about the whistling language from the Canary Islands? I'll look for a link later. Can you rhyme while whistling?

[gjones2]

I don't know about puns in ASL, but I've heard that esthetics do play a role in the way the signs are made.

[gjones2]

Originally posted by epepke
Incidentally, Spanish poetry is unusual because it is not metric but rather syllabic in structure.

Yet, as you point out, Spanish words themselves have stress, so even though only the syllables are part of the formal structure, the lines sometimes sound much as English lines do. The formal principles seem to be more different than the actual results.

For instance, English lines in iambic pentameter contain approximately the same number of syllables from line to line (ten). Though theoretically the stresses fall on every other syllable, starting with the second, in reality they vary quite a bit. This is done not only to avoid monotony, but to achieve certain esthetic effects. That produces lines with approximately the same number of syllables and with stresses that aren't nearly as regular as the meter name would imply.

With Spanish syllabic verse the number of syllables is also only approximately the same from line to line. That's true for the reasons you mentioned earlier. (I'll add another one. The last two syllables of a word that's 'esdrújula' -- stressed on the second to the last syllable -- may be counted as only one.) The stresses in the Spanish line probably aren't quite as regular as in English, but the effect for a line of comparable length is almost the same.

A final quick comment about rhyme: Another way of rhyming that's common in Spanish but rare in English is assonant rhyme (as in the Spanish 'romance'). With assonant rhyme, instead of matching the sounds of both consonants and vowels from the stress to the end of the word, you just have to match the vowels ('casa' rhymes with 'lana').

[gjones2]

Originally posted by Bluegill
Can you rhyme while whistling?

I can't rhyme while whistling (or chew gum either).

[jj]

FYI

---
Howard Hebert etait vaillant bogre
Oui, et mon ami.
Il est mort trois semaines apres ca.
Doux jours puls tard sa soeur I'a sivi.
---

Rick Michot, Zacchary Richard

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by gjones2

I can't rhyme while whistling (or chew gum either).
There is a whistling language. (http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/11/18/whistle.language.ap/) This article does not mention whether the language allows for rhyming or not.

[Voob]

I don't know of much rhyming in Japanese poetry and songs, besides typical

Kimi no~
koto wo~
blah blah blah

Rhyming is sort of used in some tongue twisters:

Tonari no kyaku ga
yoku kaki kuu kyaku da

(The guest next [to me] is a guest that often eats persimmons/eats a lot of persimmons)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Voob
I don't know of much rhyming in Japanese poetry and songs, besides typical

Kimi no~
koto wo~
blah blah blah

Rhyming is sort of used in some tongue twisters:

Tonari no kyaku ga
yoku kaki kuu kyaku da

(The guest next [to me] is a guest that often eats persimmons/eats a lot of persimmons)
Nama gomi, nama mugi, nama tamago. :p
"Raw garbage, raw barley, raw eggs". Difficult for the Japanese to say.

[Voob]

You made the same mistake that I always do!

The first phrase is "nama gome" ---raw rice.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Voob
You made the same mistake that I always do!

The first phrase is "nama gome" ---raw rice.
Blame my wife. :p
Are you in Tokyo?

[epepke]

Originally posted by gjones2
(I'll add another one. The last two syllables of a word that's 'esdrújula' -- stressed on the second to the last syllable -- may be counted as only one.)

True but fairly rare.

Do you remember the names for these rules? I seem to recall that the vowel-joining rule was "sinolefa" and the dipthong-breaking rule was "dieresis" (same as English), but I can't remember the names for the other two.

A final quick comment about rhyme: Another way of rhyming that's common in Spanish but rare in English is assonant rhyme (as in the Spanish 'romance'). With assonant rhyme, instead of matching the sounds of both consonants and vowels from the stress to the end of the word, you just have to match the vowels ('casa' rhymes with 'lana').

I minored in Spanish with a concentration in medieval epic Spanish poetry (to the uninitiated, El Cid comes from that period), and it's basically all assonantal rhyme. Consonantal rhyme didn't become popular until much later.

That was actually quite fun. Spanish has changed much less in that period than has English, and if you know a few rules from historical linguistics, it's quite easy to dope out a medieval manuscript.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by gjones2
A final quick comment about rhyme: Another way of rhyming that's common in Spanish but rare in English is assonant rhyme (as in the Spanish 'romance'). With assonant rhyme, instead of matching the sounds of both consonants and vowels from the stress to the end of the word, you just have to match the vowels ('casa' rhymes with 'lana').
What about John Donne? Or Shakespeare? They rely on assonance a great deal.

[jj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

What about John Donne? Or Shakespeare? They rely on assonance a great deal.

Then there's some of the internal rhyme one sees in some works from the "north" and "west", as the lady in Cambridge put it.

[chapka]

Originally posted by Bluegill
I'd be interested in seeing the discussion broaden to subjects other than rhyming. Are there any features of a language that are akin to rhyming, but that don't exist in English?

I can think of one which doesn't exist in modern English, at least. Most Anglo-Saxon poetry, including Beowulf, is written in alliterative rather than rhyming verse. This means that the lines are organized by similar word-initial sounds within the line rather than similar word-final sounds at the end of the line. An example may make it clearer ("rhyming" sounds are in bold):


Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas.


(From Beowulf, copied from Georgetown's Labyrinth online medieval library).

If you hear it read aloud (or if you know a little Anglo-Saxon), it's a beautiful effect, and organizes the poem just as well as end-rhyme.

--Chris

"þæt wæs god cyning!"

[gjones2]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

There is a whistling language. (http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/11/18/whistle.language.ap/) This article does not mention whether the language allows for rhyming or not.

Interesting article about the "whistling language" of the Canary Islands. It's easy to imagine how whistling could be using to communicate with a Morse code kind of system (which simply varies the duration and pattern of the whistles). That would be very slow, though. Apparently this system uses different tones and is almost like a regular language.

[gjones2]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

What about John Donne? Or Shakespeare? They rely on assonance a great deal.

Assonance isn't rare in English, but I'd say that assonant rhyme is (certainly much less common than in Spanish). I'm referring to having a formal rhyme scheme for the poem in which there's assonant rather than perfect rhyme on the end of the lines. This is fairly common in Spanish. When you mention Shakespeare and Donne, do you mean entire poems organized around assonance or merely that assonance occurs occasionally within the lines?

[gjones2]

Originally posted by epepke
Do you remember the names for these rules?

I don't use them enough to keep them all in mind, but here are some terms that I found at some net sites -- quite an array depending on what's being joined or separated and where it is (e.g., sinéresis, sinalefa, diéresis, hiato). Also there are terms for a poetic line that vary according to where the accent falls on the final word -- 'verso llano', 'verso agudo', or 'verso esdrújulo'.

Spanish has changed much less in that period than has English...

Yeah, the Cid looks a bit odd to modern readers of Spanish, but it's not at all hard to understand compared with the difficulty posed by Beowulf to modern readers of English. (Note the lines quoted byChapka. Beowulf is a bit older, of course, but it's not time alone but the influx of French and Latin words that has distanced modern English from Beowulf.)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by gjones2
When you mention Shakespeare and Donne, do you mean entire poems organized around assonance or merely that assonance occurs occasionally within the lines?
Judge for yourself. (http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/) One thing to note is that both Donne and Shakespeare were Elizabethan poets, not modern. Modern English relies more on rhyming the last word of sentences.

[epepke]

Originally posted by gjones2
Yeah, the Cid looks a bit odd to modern readers of Spanish, but it's not at all hard to understand compared with the difficulty posed by Beowulf to modern readers of English. (Note the lines quoted byChapka. Beowulf is a bit older, of course, but it's not time alone but the influx of French and Latin words that has distanced modern English from Beowulf.)

Chaucer, on the other hand, is considerably newer than the Cid but I still find it harder to understand.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by epepke
Chaucer, on the other hand, is considerably newer than the Cid but I still find it harder to understand.
Try reading Chaucer aloud, with a French accent. If you ignore the spelling, the cod-French accent actually helps. ;)

[JesFine]

Here's my favorite dual rhymer.

In German:
Hast Du etwas Zeit für mich
Dann singe ich ein Lied fuer Dich
Von 99 Luftballons
Auf ihrem Weg zum Horizont
Denkst Du vielleicht grad' an mich
Dann singe ich ein Lied fuer Dich
Von 99 Luftballons
Und dass sowas von sowas kommt

99 Luftballons
Auf ihrem Weg zum Horizont
Hielt man fuer UFOs aus dem All
Darum schickte ein General
Eine Fliegerstaffel hinterher
Alarm zu geben, wenn es so war
Dabei war da am Horizont
Nur 99 Luftballons

99 Duesenjaeger
Jeder war ein grosser Krieger
Hielten sich fuer Captain Kirk
Das gab ein grosses Feuerwerk
Die Nachbarn haben nichts gerafft
Und fuehlten sich gleich angemacht
Dabei schoss man am Horizont
Auf 99 Luftballons

99 Kriegsminister
Streichholz und Benzinkanister
Hielten sich fuer schlaue Leute
Witterten schon fette Beute
Riefen: Krieg und wollten Macht
Mann, wer haette das gedacht
Dass es einmal soweit kommt
Wegen 99 Luftballons

99 Jahre Krieg
Liessen keinen Platz fuer Sieger
Kriegsminister gibt es nicht mehr
Und auch keine Duesenflieger
Heute zieh ich meine Runden
Seh die Welt in Truemmern liegen
Hab' nen Luftballon gefunden
Denk' an Dich und lass' ihn fliegen


And in English:
You and I in a little toy shop
Buy a bag of balloons with the money we've got.
Set them free at the break of dawn
'Til one by one, they were gone.
Back at base, bugs in the software
Flash the message, Something's out there.
Floating in the summer sky.
99 red balloons go by.

99 red balloons.
floating in the summer sky.
Panic bells, it's red alert.
There's something here from somewhere else.
The war machine springs to life.
Opens up one eager eye.
Focusing it on the sky.
Where 99 red balloons go by.

99 Decision Street.
99 ministers meet.
To worry, worry, super-scurry.
Call the troops out in a hurry.
This is what we've waited for.
This is it boys, this is war.
The president is on the line
As 99 red balloons go by.

99 Knights of the air
Ride super-high-tech jet fighters
Everyone's a superhero.
Everyone's a Captain Kirk.
With orders to identify.
To clarify and classify.
Scramble in the summer sky.
As 99 red balloons go by.

99 dreams I have had.
In every one a red balloon.
It's all over and I'm standing pretty.
In this dust that was a city.
If I could find a souvenier.
Just to prove the world was here.
And here is a red balloon
I think of you and let it go.

[gjones2]

Before writing my post yesterday I looked at some Donne poems and couldn't find a single one that uses a rhyme scheme based on assonance. Also I'm not aware of any in the verse that I recall from Shakespeare. In his plays he uses mostly blank verse (unrhymed iambic pentameter) and mostly perfect rhyme in his sonnets.

Today I did a general search of the net for "assonant rhyme in English" and found just a <a href=http://www.n2hos.com/acm/prospart3.html>single site</a>. It names Emily Dickinson as "probably the master of assonant rhyme in English" over the last century and a half. Yet one of the example stanzas contains perfect rhyme too. The other also comes from a poem (http://www.4literature.net/Emily_Dickinson/Poems_Third_Series/2.html) that's made up primarily of perfect rhyme.

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Judge for yourself. (http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/)

Well, since you leave it up to me, my conclusion is that poets who write in English occasionally use assonance within lines (or on the end as substitutes for perfect rhyme), but almost never use it as the primary kind of rhyme for structuring the poem.

[Kimpatsu]

John Donne is renowned for his assonance.

[gjones2]

Originally posted by epepke


Chaucer, on the other hand, is considerably newer than the Cid but I still find it harder to understand.

A bit harder, yes, but at least -- unlike Beowulf -- it's a hybrid of Germanic and Latin roots. In this it's like modern English. Here are the first two lines:

Whan that Aprille with his shoures sote
The droghte of Marche hath perced to the rote...

Latin-root words -- Aprille, Marche, perced. Chances are the comparable Germanic-root words in Old English would be even more difficult. 'Sote' (don't know what's the origin of that one)? Once 'shoures' is associated with April showers, everything seems to fall into place. Otherwise 'his shoures sote' would be very puzzling, and even the meaning of 'droghte' in the second line might not be recognized.

[gjones2]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
John Donne is renowned for his assonance.

Assonance but not poems based on assonant rhyme. I've found many poems by Donne that are based on perfect rhyme. If you can cite a single one based on assonant rhyme, I'd appreciate your doing so. I've yet to find any, and I'd like to see one.

[pillory]

Short time's to us allotted till our urn.
Living, like furnace flames then let us burn,
High let us in the fire be ascending,
Earth stays below, the spirit's heavenward tending.

this has something to with Eino Leino ,our national poetry...
but this is in english?

at least Eino Leino rhymes..even in finnish

[gjones2]

I wasn't familiar with Eino Leino, but I like the lines. Here are some more "burning" lines by <a href=http://www.cc.gatech.edu/people/home/idris/Poetry/Millay.htm>Edna St. Vincent Millay</a> (based on the English idiom "burn the candle at both ends"):

My candle burns at both ends
It will not last the night.
But ah my foes and oh my friends
It gives a lovely light.

[Yahweh]

The Ketchup Song: (http://www.songlyrics.com/song-lyrics/Las_Ketchup/Miscellaneous/The_Ketchup_Song/62656.html)

Mira lo que se avecina a la vuelta de la esquina
viene Diego rumbeando
con la luna en las pupilas
y su traje agua marina
va después de contrabando
Y donde mas no cabe un alma
Y se mete a darse caña
Poseído por el ritmo ragatanga
y el dj que lo conoce toca el himno de las 12
para Diego la canción más deseada
y la baila!
y la goza!
y la canta!

Chorus:
aserejé ja de jé de jebe
tu de jebere seibiunouva
majavi an de bugui an de buididípi

Chorus[2X]

no es cosa de brujería
que lo encuentre to los días
por donde voy caminando
Diego tiene chulería y ese punto de alegría
raftafari-afrogitano
Y donde mas no cabe un alma
Y se mete a darse caña
Poseído por el ritmo ragatanga
y el dj que lo conoce toca el himno de las 12
para Diego la canción más deseada
y la baila!
y la goza!
y la canta!

Chorus[3X]

ananananana
ananana nananananana
anananananananananan
ahí ahí ahíiii ee ooo

Chorus[9X]

The song contains a lot of Spanish slang so it does not translate well into English.

[sorgoth]

Originally posted by Bluegill


Anyone see the news articles about the whistling language from the Canary Islands? I'll look for a link later. Can you rhyme while whistling?

Interesting. Can you rhyme while whistling? In a sense. Since you whistle in a 'key', if you end the whistle on the same key as you ended the last sentence, then it would rhyme.

If it sounds alike at the end, it will probably sound nice.

I can see it now... "Poem in F minor", with some other keys thrown in for variety.

[Underemployed]

From Cyrano De Bergerac:

Cyrano :
Je jette avec grâce mon feutre,
Je fais lentement l'abandon Du grand manteau qui me calfeutre,
Et je tire mon espadon;
Elégant comme Céladon,
Agile comme Scaramouche,
Je vous préviens, cher Myrmidon,
Qu'à la fin de l'envoi je touche!

The entire play is almost exclusively in rhyming couplets, yet reading it or watching it performed you might not notice, so well crafted is the language.

[gjones2]

Originally posted by pillory
this has something to with Eino Leino ,our national poetry...
but this is in english?

at least Eino Leino rhymes..even in finnish

I'll add something about the Leino lines. By questioning whether they are in English, I suppose you're referring to the rough, somewhat unidiomatic quality of the English version. The wording makes it evident that the lines are translated and not an original composition in English. An ideal translation would appear to have been created in English. Still, I'm tolerant of translations of poetry because it's very hard to come anywhere close to reproducing the effects of the original in a way that seems natural in the new language. In this case there's something about the roughness of the translation that appeals to me.

[epepke]

Originally posted by gjones2


A bit harder, yes, but at least -- unlike Beowulf -- it's a hybrid of Germanic and Latin roots. In this it's like modern English.

But still, my point is that it is less like modern English than the Cid is like modern Spanish.

I'm a cunning linguist, and I can read it just fine. But that's not the point.

[gjones2]

I agreed that Chaucer is harder than the Cid. I'm just making a point of my own -- that Chaucer is easier than Beowulf.

[As I see this thread, people started with the question "Is there rhyme in other languages?", answered 'yes', then went on to make whatever points they wished.]

Originally posted by epepke


I'm a cunning linguist...

A useful skill to have (especially for some of Chaucer's more ribald tales).

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by epepke
I'm a cunning linguist,
That must be hard to get your tongue around.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

That must be hard to get your tongue around.

Not as hard as getting around the site's rules on language.

Uh huh, Beavis. He said "hard."