Satan in Devon! [Archive]

Ernie M

13th March 2009, 11:17 AM

It's ridiculous the article Ancient legend of Satan's visit reawakened by footprints in the snow (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/4983344/Ancient-legend-of-Satans-visit-reawakened-by-footprints-in-the-snow.html) even ran.

At least zoologist Graham Inglis had a rational mind to look at the impressions in the snow to deduce that "Personally I think it belongs to a rabbit or hare..."

Mrs. Wade got all bent out of shape over footprints (in the snow) in her garden. I'd hate to see what might happen if she found bird poop on the snow.

Skeptic Guy

13th March 2009, 11:34 AM

Interesting, a 150-year 'mystery such as:

Legend has it that on February 8, 1855, a trail of hoof-like marks following straight lines appeared in the snow for more than 100 miles across South Devon.

Obviously, exactly matches 'footprints' found in snow under someone's window. 'Cause we know exactly what those 150-year old prints looked like.

She says the footprints stretched 60 to 70 feet across her garden in an arch shape running from below her window to the other side of her garden.

Graham Inglis, a biologist that visited the garden, said: "This is certainly a first for me. The footprints are peculiar, but they are not the devil's - I don't believe the horned one has been in Woolsery.

And I'm glad that we rulled out Satan. Tourism would have been really hurt if it was even suggested that he was around.

Personally I think it belongs to a rabbit or hare but quite an academic punch-up has started over it.

Ah, sanity does prevail.

cj.23

13th March 2009, 11:37 AM

[quote=Skeptic Guy;4513348
Obviously, exactly matches 'footprints' found in snow under someone's window. 'Cause we know exactly what those 150-year old prints looked like.[/quote]

Yes we do - and it suggests not one but several causes as I recall. It is very well covered, though I don't think there are any photographs, there are many descriptions and contemporary illustrations. I have quite a file on this of bits and pieces I've collected, but if anyone in Devon/Dorset would be willing to spend an hour in their local Record Office for me, I'd be like ot hear from you!

cj x

ChongLee

13th March 2009, 11:50 AM

As kids, we use to "create" random foot prints at local parks and camping sights. It made news. On another note, I initially thought this thread was about Devon, the porn star.
:whistling

Skeptic Guy

13th March 2009, 01:03 PM

Yes we do - and it suggests not one but several causes as I recall. It is very well covered, though I don't think there are any photographs, there are many descriptions and contemporary illustrations. I have quite a file on this of bits and pieces I've collected, but if anyone in Devon/Dorset would be willing to spend an hour in their local Record Office for me, I'd be like ot hear from you!

cj x

We know 'exactly' what those 150-year old footprints look like? Forgive me, but you're going to have to color me skeptical on that one, but maybe you can share what evidence there is?

fuelair

13th March 2009, 01:11 PM

PrincessIneffabelle

13th March 2009, 02:55 PM

The featured "footprint" looks like a rabbit track to me.

Anyway, I thought that this part was funny:

"It was also recorded that the tracks were seen on one side of 14 foot walls, and again on the other side, had passed through locked gardens, and over houses, as if they were no barrier. "

Okay, so whatever made the tracks back then could walk through walls, locked gardens, and houses no problem ... but couldn't be arsed to walk through the snow without leaving prints?

:rolleyes:

Soapy Sam

13th March 2009, 03:22 PM

It certainly would be nice if someone could work out what made these, as it might well also explain the legend. The intriguing bit to my mind is that they may not be foot/ paw prints at all, but some sort of atmospheric effect (which might fit with going up walls if that's not simple exaggeration). That, in turn could have implications for yeti tracks.

EternalSceptic

14th March 2009, 06:05 AM

I have read this story decades ago, and IIRC it was in a collection of weird tales, implicitely or explicitely marked as fiction.

EternalSceptic

14th March 2009, 06:08 AM

Btw, the footprints in the linked image are definitely not in freshly fallen snow. Look at the image, there are parts where the snow had obviously melted and was frozen again several times

steffanie

14th March 2009, 11:17 AM

Definitely the prints of a hare or rabbit i would say. How did this story make the paper!

I Ratant

14th March 2009, 11:45 AM

I recall a similar brou-ha-ha years back.
These prints are easily seen in a light covering of snow, a day after the -cat- walks by!
One of my cats left the same prints in one of the rare snow falls around here. I watched them go from obvious cat tracks to much larger "demon tracks" as the warm surface in the track areas melted the snow around it.
And cats can jump onto roofs to get from one side of the building to the other.
If you don't look, or don't mention you looked for this, obviously the "demon" had special teleportation powers!

Big Les

14th March 2009, 01:11 PM

We have hares nearby, and I've seen prints like this also.

AgeGap

14th March 2009, 01:15 PM

I have read this story decades ago, and IIRC it was in a collection of weird tales, implicitely or explicitely marked as fiction.

Arthur C Clarke's Mysterious World?

cj.23

14th March 2009, 02:32 PM

We know 'exactly' what those 150-year old footprints look like? Forgive me, but you're going to have to color me skeptical on that one, but maybe you can share what evidence there is?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Devonshire_Devil_Prints_1855.jpg

Wikimedia commons is your friend. Hardly obscure!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil%27s_Footprints

Everyone has covered this one - Joe Nickell did a good piece on it in one of his books. I'm amused some people never seem to have heard of it!

cj x

The Atheist

15th March 2009, 02:49 PM

How ugly is this woman if Satan ran away from her?

Aepervius

15th March 2009, 02:51 PM

Looks like snow hare print:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kenhelens/3249910597/

OTOH I would like to hear the justification for the print "of the devil" being in one line from believer (instead of being shifted right and left in parallel tracks)...

The Atheist

15th March 2009, 07:49 PM

OTOH I would like to hear the justification for the print "of the devil" being in one line from believer (instead of being shifted right and left in parallel tracks)...

He hops.

Raising hell cost an arm and a leg.

cj.23

15th March 2009, 08:41 PM

He hops.

Raising hell cost an arm and a leg.

Nominated for making me laugh out loud! :)

cj x

The Atheist

15th March 2009, 09:56 PM

Nominated for making me laugh out loud! :)

cj x

Cheers.

Sometimes, the only appropriate response is to take the piss.

Biscuit

16th March 2009, 10:46 AM

While I think assuming this is the Devil is a little silly and find that a rabbit or hare is a much more likely explanation we can't rule out a demonic bunny.

http://baptistsforbrown2008.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/satanbunny.jpg

Correa Neto

16th March 2009, 11:13 AM

Meh. Trilobites are satanic in more than one way. The devil stuck them in to what foolish scientists labelled Devonian rocks; later Satan uses them to create prints in the snow! Satan's ways are tortous, but he's surely feeding on your souls, you foolish faithless science-minded folks...

kitakaze

16th March 2009, 11:20 AM

When Satan is done in Devon could he please swing by my place. There's this really stubborn jar of pickles, you see...

richardm

16th March 2009, 12:32 PM

Wikimedia commons is your friend. Hardly obscure!

Hardly obscure but not great evidence either. That picture was published in the London Evening News. With Devon a fair way to travel from London in 1855, and in the midst of winter to boot, I'd have my doubts that the artist ever actually saw the prints in person.

Edit: Besides, the reports claimed that the prints were of a cloven hoof, as is right and proper for the Devil. The illustration is not of a cloven hoof.

Aoidoi

16th March 2009, 02:30 PM

How did they rule out Virgin Mary tracks?

Soapy Sam

16th March 2009, 06:41 PM

Those can only be the tracks of El Fideldo, the two-legged horse of Lobey Dosser, Sheriff of Calton Creek!
http://www.netsavvy.co.uk/lobey/54b.htm

cj.23

16th March 2009, 06:55 PM

Hardly obscure but not great evidence either. That picture was published in the London Evening News. With Devon a fair way to travel from London in 1855, and in the midst of winter to boot, I'd have my doubts that the artist ever actually saw the prints in person.

Nah, not at all! About 5 hours ten minutes by train GWR in 1851- you could be there and back in a day easily enough, with time to do some business in town. 1851 Timetable here -- http://library-2.lse.ac.uk/collections/pamphlets/document_service/HE1_42/00000481/doc.pdf

By 1855 there are more lines opening up, but I would imagine the times would be about the same. Good service too.

And by 1855 the GWR has had telegraph lines for about 6 years as I recall, and telegraphy is well established, allowing local correspondents to file reports almost simultaneously. The Victorian internet had arrived.

On postal service there are only two London to Devon and vive versa mail trains a day taking same time as passenger, but given the speed of sorting and 9 posts a day in London it would be surprising if you could not send a letter in morning and get a reply by last post at night.

Edit: Besides, the reports claimed that the prints were of a cloven hoof, as is right and proper for the Devil. The illustration is not of a cloven hoof.

Um; actually the prints appear to vary, suggesting that there were at least two sources for them, plus at least one set of obvious fakes. Also there ar egaps in the epic trek, suggesting again differnet causes for the 1855 afffair. I have a recent article on it somewhere - I'll dig it out...

cj x

tsig

17th March 2009, 06:06 AM

How did they rule out Virgin Mary tracks?

She floats.

richardm

17th March 2009, 06:10 AM

On postal service there are only two London to Devon and vive versa mail trains a day taking same time as passenger, but given the speed of sorting and 9 posts a day in London it would be surprising if you could not send a letter in morning and get a reply by last post at night.

That is a fair point - I do have my doubts that they would bother to send someone to view the tracks in person, but a local correspondent could easily have sent the picture in the post.

Ersby

17th March 2009, 07:07 AM

One volume of Fortean Studies I have collects all the contemporary newspaper reports on the original "Devil's Footprints" story. The footprints were in different shapes and sizes, suggesting different sources. And the weather back then was snow on the ground, a light rain in the night, and then freezing temperatures again, which would've distorted the footprints left by animals. There is one (admittedly second hand) account from someone who noted how, on that night, tracks that he knew had been left by his cat were considerably different when he went out the next morning.

This is interesting, in a sort of post script sort of way.

Steve

17th March 2009, 02:09 PM

She floats.

Is she made of wood? ---> a witch ---> Burn her!

(Sorry, completely unnecessary Python reference.)

Skeptic Guy

18th March 2009, 10:31 AM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Devonshire_Devil_Prints_1855.jpg

Wikimedia commons is your friend. Hardly obscure!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil%27s_Footprints

Everyone has covered this one - Joe Nickell did a good piece on it in one of his books. I'm amused some people never seem to have heard of it!

cj x

And what is that evidence of? Other than a one-legged horse?

And as has been pointed out:

Many explanations have been put forward for the incident. Some investigators are sceptical that the tracks really extended for over a hundred miles, arguing that no-one would have been able to follow their entire course in a single day. Another reason for scepticism, as Joe Nickell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Nickell) points out, is that the eye-witness descriptions of the footprints varied from person to person.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil%27s_Footprints#cite_note-3)

Hardly obscure but not great evidence either. That picture was published in the London Evening News. With Devon a fair way to travel from London in 1855, and in the midst of winter to boot, I'd have my doubts that the artist ever actually saw the prints in person.

Edit: Besides, the reports claimed that the prints were of a cloven hoof, as is right and proper for the Devil. The illustration is not of a cloven hoof.

Exactly, someone was able to trace the 'hoof print' hundreds of miles, interview multiple 'witnesses', draw the prints in detail without any variation over those hundreds of miles, and report back to the London Times in a very quick turnaround that there is a great mystery.

To say that this is proof of anything other than, possibly, mass hysteria is silly and to tie tha incident to the one in the OP is not even that.

cj.23

18th March 2009, 10:40 AM

And what is that evidence of? Other than a one-legged horse?

It's evidence of the devils footprints record in Devon in 1855. Please pay attention. You asked

We know 'exactly' what those 150-year old footprints look like? Forgive me, but you're going to have to color me skeptical on that one, but maybe you can share what evidence there is?

And as I pointed out your scepticism is misplaced here, as you would have discovered if you had searched (or looked at many many sources which reproduce the period descriptions and illustrations.) Hence I posted said image.

Exactly, someone was able to trace the 'hoof print' hundreds of miles, interview multiple 'witnesses', draw the prints in detail without any variation over those hundreds of miles, and report back to the London Times in a very quick turnaround that there is a great mystery.

You clearly do not know what you are talking about here. Please look at my reply to Richardm just above in this thread,and consult the railway timetable I linked, and note the postal and telegraph service notes i provided. More usefully, why not actually go and look at the evidence in the archives, or some of the extenisve books which cover this? Joe Nickell wrote a good piece on it.

cj x

Skeptic Guy

19th March 2009, 05:05 PM

It's evidence of the devils footprints record in Devon in 1855. Please pay attention. You asked

Do you think that is really evidence of anything? Do you have devils' footprints with which to compare it with? What I see is a drawing of something that someone claims to be 'devil footprints' but maybe, just maybe, could be something more mundane.

And as I pointed out your scepticism is misplaced here, as you would have discovered if you had searched (or looked at many many sources which reproduce the period descriptions and illustrations.) Hence I posted said image.

Actually, I think your credulity is misplaced. What I see is a Wikipedia article with one drawing and a bunch of explanations, most of which suggest non-supernatural causes. The image does nothing to recommend a supernatural explanation.

You clearly do not know what you are talking about here. Please look at my reply to Richardm just above in this thread,and consult the railway timetable I linked, and note the postal and telegraph service notes i provided. More usefully, why not actually go and look at the evidence in the archives, or some of the extenisve books which cover this? Joe Nickell wrote a good piece on it.

cj x

I'm not sure what posting railway timetables have to do with the incident. Are you saying that the person making the report was able to do an investigation, interview 'witnesses', hop on a train (or make a telegraphed report, including said drawing) and get it posted in the newspaper?

And my main point is that there is absolutely no evidence tying that incident to the one in the OP. The drawing looks very little like the picture of the 'print' in the article.

Ron_Tomkins

19th March 2009, 05:47 PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/4983344/Ancient-legend-of-Satans-visit-reawakened-by-footprints-in-the-snow.html

Strange footprints in the snow = the Devil. :rolleyes:

Hi

I'm in charge of managing Satan's touring schedule and I just wanted to confirm that he wasn't there during that time. Those footprints must belong to some other evil entity

Sorry about the confusion generated

Happy a nice day

cj.23

19th March 2009, 06:35 PM

Do you think that is really evidence of anything? Do you have devils' footprints with which to compare it with? What I see is a drawing of something that someone claims to be 'devil footprints' but maybe, just maybe, could be something more mundane.

I always assumed it was. It ios however evidence that people recorded the footprints with some care. Many more sketches and descriptions exist. In fact you could contact the MAry Evans Picture library, and ask if they have any, or just consult the secondary literature include the volume of Fortean Studies previously mentioned?

Actually, I think your credulity is misplaced. What I see is a Wikipedia article with one drawing and a bunch of explanations, most of which suggest non-supernatural causes. The image does nothing to recommend a supernatural explanation.

Who said there was a supernatural explanation? I never did. I thought it was clear from my first post I though there was a natural explanation and the more recent event might help find it?

I'm not sure what posting railway timetables have to do with the incident. Are you saying that the person making the report was able to do an investigation, interview 'witnesses', hop on a train (or make a telegraphed report, including said drawing) and get it posted in the newspaper?

Yes. The papers were all over the 1855 incident like a rash. You can confirm this with a few emails if you so desire, or by a simple internet search.

And my main point is that there is absolutely no evidence tying that incident to the one in the OP. The drawing looks very little like the picture of the 'print' in the article.

Well other than both involve strange tracks in the snow in Devon, 154 years apart though that might be, I tend to agree. However the cause of the recent event may well teach us something about what happened in 1855 - and if you look back you will note that I did specify that the print varied in the 1855 incident, suggesting not one but two different causes, plus some opportunistic fraud.

I think you seriously misunderstand my points.

cj x

Checkmite

20th March 2009, 10:22 PM

Zim

22nd March 2009, 05:26 PM

I live in the evergreen state, so it couldn't be Satan (my grandma think's I'm Satan, who am I to argue with grandma?) But then my Other Grandma (on dad's side) think's Terrorists are hanging dead bodies in her back yard and watching her through her windows while she watches Judge Judy!:)

Skeptic Guy

16th June 2009, 09:32 PM

Who said there was a supernatural explanation? I never did. I thought it was clear from my first post I though there was a natural explanation and the more recent event might help find it?

It is comments like this and my reaction to them that made me take a break from this forum for so long.

Laton

16th June 2009, 09:52 PM

From Wikeipedia:

These footprints, measuring 1.5 to 2.5 inches wide and eight inches apart...

Based on his reputaion I though the Devil would be taller than that.

cj.23

17th June 2009, 06:34 AM

I wrote -
Originally Posted by cj.23 http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4533288#post4533288)
Who said there was a supernatural explanation? I never did. I thought it was clear from my first post I though there was a natural explanation and the more recent event might help find it?

It is comments like this and my reaction to them that made me take a break from this forum for so long.

Why is that then? If you read the thread it is abundantly apparent that was my point from the beginning?

cj x

Skeptic Guy

17th June 2009, 10:22 AM

And that's what triggered my interest; to suggest that the two 'stories' have anything to say about one another is inane, whether you think anything supernatural happened or not.

They are two, separate, disconnected, and highly imaginative (to choose a more charitable word) stories. And more than that, there would really have to be something in the original story to even worry about being skeptical of it.