Bush Flees the Hecklers

[Mr Manifesto]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=13631331_method=full_siteid=50143 _headline=-BUSH-PULLS-OUT-OF-SPEECH-TO-PARLIAMENT-name_page.html]BUSH PULLS OUT OF SPEECH TO PARLIAMENT [/url]

Actually, I don't really care too much about the article (for all I know, he's changed his mind already and decided to speak to parliament- the hecklers didn't stop him speaking in Australia), but have a look at the name of the political correspondent.

edit Dammit, link won't work. It's at www.mirror.co.uk, article's on the 17 November 2003 and says (in part)GEORGE Bush was last night branded chicken for scrapping his speech to Parliament because he feared being heckled by anti-war MPs.

The US president planned to give a joint address to the Commons and Lords during his state visit to Britain.

But senior White House adviser Dr Harlan Ullman said: "They would have loved to do it because it would have been a great photo-opportunity.

"But they were fearful it would to turn into a spectacle with Labour backbenchers walking out."


And the correspondent is Bob Roberts. Y'know? Like the Tim Robbins politician in that movie? :sigh:

[Ladewig]

Bush has been practicing his speechifying over the past few years and has gotten very noticeable better. Still, he (like most American politicians) is not ready to address Parliament.

[showme2]

Just don't "misunderestimate" him !

[a_unique_person]

He only went to Canberra in Australia. Although it is the Capital City of Australia, it is also pretty small in population and remote. If he had gone to any of the bigger state capital cities, he would have come up against a huge demonstration.

[crackmonkey]

As if that means anything to anyone.
Why should a screaming rabble be the least bit newsworthy? Particularly when they don't represent the point of view of the majority...

[Judith]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
As if that means anything to anyone.
Why should a screaming rabble be the least bit newsworthy? Particularly when they don't represent the point of view of the majority...
Did you even read the topic? Apparently you think the English Parliament is 'a screaming rabble'. Good diplomacy crackmonkey!

Georgy boy is best in a canned speech or shooting the breeze with people one on one... like a used
car salesman. If confronted on an intellectual level, he would be destroyed.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
As if that means anything to anyone.
Why should a screaming rabble be the least bit newsworthy? Particularly when they don't represent the point of view of the majority...
You don't think that how the US President is received by the government of what is almost certainly their greatest ally is at all newsworthy? I guess you are too focussed on the latest about Michael Jackson to notice anything about world politics.

And by the way. Most MPs are elected, so they do represent the majority of the people. In fact, the overwhelming majority of Brits are majorly p*ssed at GWB. It could cost Blair his job, even though he was one of the most well-liked politicians in England before the war.

[American]

Should he come out and kiss you??

[crackmonkey]

What great replies... my post was actually commenting on the one immediately above by AUP. In other words, I was commenting on the threatened howling hordes of Australians.

Come to think if it, though, 'screaming rabble' does sum up the Commons pretty well.

[Richard G]

Newscasters all week anticipating 200,000+ protesters...last I heard today, there were approx. 2,000. Well, they were only about 198,000 off.

[Zep]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
What great replies... my post was actually commenting on the one immediately above by AUP. In other words, I was commenting on the threatened howling hordes of Australians.Yeah, that's the spirit! Also known as the third party in the "Coalition of the Willing," if you don't mind. REMEMBER???

It's this sort of comment that gets the USA up so many other country's noses. Yeah, we are way smaller and on the other side of the world so you might think we are uncivilised crocodile botherers, but if that's all you think of one of your "best buddies," well...heaven help you, and up yours.

However, if you are more civilised in your thinking you would have realised that AUP is trying to inform you that the majority of ALL Australians DO NOT LIKE GWB nor his policies. He spent just 22 hours here in a town the size of Fresno, had a sleep and a meal, gave a little speech, then buggered off again. This by way of saying thanks to our ar$elicking PM for being his best bud about Iraq earlier this year. Huh!

Well you may say, "As if I care," because you SHOULD. GWB's reputation is the whole USA's reputation. And his reputation here is that of being a knuckleheaded cowboy with a penchant for playing with his guns. You can keep him - we just wanted to tell him that, but he certainly wasn't going to go anywhere he would likely hear that message.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Richard G
Newscasters all week anticipating 200,000+ protesters...last I heard today, there were approx. 2,000. Well, they were only about 198,000 off.

Whats wrong with you lot? Sudden attack of the stoopids? It was pretty obvious that crackmonkey was reffering to protesters and not the UK parliament, have you all taken leave of your critical faculties? {In fact, sometimes the UK parliament does resemble a screaming rabble- quite entertaining sometime}

Dick- wendsdays protests were 'unoffical'. The big one will be today, although I would be suprised if more than 50,000 turned out.

Watching some flag burning last night- It just struck me how assinine and childish this kind of behaviour is, specially in the context of a democracy. Want to change things? Then form an interest group, try and get elected, write to your MP, Hell! try voting for a change why not? This kind of behaviour is why, although I seriously dislike Bush, I would never participate in one of these protests.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Richard G
Newscasters all week anticipating 200,000+ protesters...last I heard today, there were approx. 2,000. Well, they were only about 198,000 off.

It's the same 2000 who are in all of the demonstrations. They don't start until the TV cameras are rolling. What was the last demonstration about? I remember something about soccer abortions or some such thing...

The crowd of up to 600 was held back from the palace by police. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3283657.stm)

Up to 600 ... wow! :eek:

[Zep]

For the record, I happen to agree with the above two posts. I used to go on "demos" when I was younger, but they usually turned out to be nothing more than partially organised mobocracy. Waste of time and energy.

So I'll second those thoughts - want to make a difference? Drop the sticks, stones and placards, get into politics, get elected, and make the change that way. It isn't hard in most countries if you REALLY want to do it.

[richardm]

The "Big" protest march doesn't get going until 12:00 on Thursday (i.e. today), so before you sneer at the size of the protests, I'd wait to see what happens there.

Afterwards you will be at liberty to sneer freely :D

[richardm]

Originally posted by Zep
For the record, I happen to agree with the above two posts. I used to go on "demos" when I was younger, but they usually turned out to be nothing more than partially organised mobocracy. Waste of time and energy.

So I'll second those thoughts - want to make a difference? Drop the sticks, stones and placards, get into politics, get elected, and make the change that way. It isn't hard in most countries if you REALLY want to do it.

Having said that, I like to think we did a good job against the Poll Tax, and indeed set the wheels moving to get Thatcher out of office.

[Jon_in_london]

BTW- there are about a squillion protesters just down the end of my road at the moment. I think this one will be fairly big. Its all good natured at the moment, lets hope it stays that way.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Tricky


And by the way. Most MPs are elected, so they do represent the majority of the people. In fact, the overwhelming majority of Brits are majorly p*ssed at GWB. It could cost Blair his job, even though he was one of the most well-liked politicians in England before the war.

Tricky,

What is your idea of an "overwhelming majority"?? Last I heard the polls say the actual majority in the UK do support President Bush. As Protesters Target Bush, Most British Back America (http://www.eagletribune.com/news/stories/20031118/FP_006.htm)
From the link:
The poll, published today in the Guardian, a liberal British newspaper, found 62 percent of voters believe the United States is "generally speaking a force for good, not evil, in the world," while only 15 percent see America as an "evil empire."

Support for Bush is weaker, but more people say they welcome the president's visit to Britain than say they would rather he did not come -- 43 percent compared to 36 percent. A majority of "twentysomething" voters welcome Bush while hostility is strongest among those over 65.



Tricky, either you are quite easily overwhelmed, or you have surrendered your credibility to dogmatic leftist hype.

Since I like you though, I'm willing to believe you have merely made a mistake in your assesment. Take this post as a friendly nudge back to reality. ;)

BTW, what I heard about the protesters...and maybe J_I_L can help us out here since he's on the scene....is that the protesters have been streaming in from Europe, and are the usual diverse group of anarchists, tree-huggers, "socialists", etc....not average British folk.

I know J_I_L dislikes Mr. Bush, but I have to say that in the last few months the man has mightily impressed me personally by his overt attempts at even-handedness. Strangely, I've come to trust his opinions.

So do tell Jon,...and have fun. I do love London, and hope to make it back there sometime soon. Hopefully the protesters will remain peaceful, and you can wander among them for your own amusement, and be our JREF "reporter on the street". ;)

-z

[Larspeart]

I have watched House of Commons sessions on TV before, and they ARE a 'screaming rabble'. I have never seen anything like it before.

Yes, Bush would not be able to handle himself in the House of Lords. They are far above him intellectually. But the HoC?

Please!

:p

[Drooper]

Golly gosh.

The Socialist Workers Party clears the student union bars again for a fun day out in the capital (plus piss-up and clubbing to finish).


yawn....

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
BTW- there are about a squillion protesters just down the end of my road at the moment. I think this one will be fairly big. Its all good natured at the moment, lets hope it stays that way.

Ha! I call you. There can't possibly be a squillion. The maximum population of the world is 6 Billion so there aren't even a squillion people in the world, let alone in your street!

Oh... Wait... You were just exaggerating. Never mind.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Larspeart
I have watched House of Commons sessions on TV before, and they ARE a 'screaming rabble'. I have never seen anything like it before.

Yes, Bush would not be able to handle himself in the House of Lords. They are far above him intellectually. But the HoC?

Please!

:p

So the Parliament is a "screaming rabble"...so what? That screaming rabble is merely the sound of representative democracy in action! Modern democracy was an unintended gift from some very bad English Kings. The Magna Charta, Parliament, the Oxford "provisions" forcing the King to abide by law.... if it weren't for English royals behaving badly there would have been no Bill of Rights, etc.... The rabble would have no voice,...and the "free world" we love talking about so much would not even exist.

So unless you are a devout Royalist,...you gotta love that screaming rabble. ;)

-z

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Tricky,

What is your idea of an "overwhelming majority"?? Last I heard the polls say the actual majority in the UK do support President Bush. As Protesters Target Bush, Most British Back America (http://www.eagletribune.com/news/stories/20031118/FP_006.htm)

-z

(my emphasis)

That's because, as usual, you've indulged in data mining and haven't acutally looked at the source of the comments. The poll asks exactly one question about Bush, and that is:

President Bush is coming to Britain next week on a State visit. Do you welcome his visit or would you prefer he did not come?

43% Welcome
36% Don't
21% Undecided/not stated

Poll (http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Politics/documents/2003/11/17/1711icm.pdf) (PDF format)

We cannot tell from the question if this translates to support for Bush. Only the question, "Do you support George Bush" can answer that. This question can give an indication, but for all we know respondents answered yes because they want trade links with the US, or they don't think relations with the US should be cut or damaged because one idiot is in charge, or any of a bunch of other reasons.

Also note that more people either don't welcome Bush's visit, or are simply undecided. So you can't even conclusively say that the "majority" support Bush, even if we could draw that conclusion from the question.

So, in short... Try again.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by rikzilla

What is your idea of an "overwhelming majority"?? Last I heard the polls say the actual majority in the UK do support President Bush.


Well, about 60% of labour party supporters aprove of Bush's visit. So overalll, the number is probably quite a bit higher.

Originally posted by rikzilla

BTW, what I heard about the protesters...and maybe J_I_L can help us out here since he's on the scene....is that the protesters have been streaming in from Europe, and are the usual diverse group of anarchists, tree-huggers, "socialists", etc....not average British folk.

So do tell Jon,...and have fun. I do love London, and hope to make it back there sometime soon. Hopefully the protesters will remain peaceful, and you can wander among them for your own amusement, and be our JREF "reporter on the street". ;)

-z

Oh well, they seemed to have mostly moved off by now. Im buggered if Im going to follow them around. In fact I plan on staying about as far away from them as possible. (last time I got too close to one of these protests, someone took a pic of me and handed it to my Company Sergeant-Major and I had some explaining to do).

There certainly is a strong tree-hugger-anarchist-champagne-scocialist presence as well as most of the muslim population who have nothing better to do this grey and chilly day. BUT there are also a lot of older (and even actually Old), people there so yes, it is a cross-section of society but undeniably scewed towards 'the usual suspects'.

I think its pretty big but its not really possible estimate the size of a large protest just by looking down the street, we will have to wait until this evening for an official and claimed count, then pick a number in between.

I'd say between 10,000 and 60,000 tho'.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


(my emphasis)

That's because, as usual, you've indulged in data mining and haven't acutally looked at the source of the comments. The poll asks exactly one question about Bush, and that is:

President Bush is coming to Britain next week on a State visit. Do you welcome his visit or would you prefer he did not come?

43% Welcome
36% Don't
21% Undecided/not stated

Poll (http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Politics/documents/2003/11/17/1711icm.pdf) (PDF format)

We cannot tell from the question if this translates to support for Bush. Only the question, "Do you support George Bush" can answer that. This question can give an indication, but for all we know respondents answered yes because they want trade links with the US, or they don't think relations with the US should be cut or damaged because one idiot is in charge, or any of a bunch of other reasons.

Also note that more people either don't welcome Bush's visit, or are simply undecided. So you can't even conclusively say that the "majority" support Bush, even if we could draw that conclusion from the question.

So, in short... Try again.

Sir!

You accuse me of "scurrilous data mining"!!! How dare you! (slapping Mr. M with gauntlet) I demand satisfaction!!!

...or, absent that, I would ask you to please tell me what "overwhelming majority" means since that was what I was taking Tricky to task for. The poll I quoted does, I admit, fall short of asking the more pertinent question...however, it still shows that the British people are not "overwhelmingly pi**ed with Bush"

que?
-z

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by rikzilla


You accuse me of "scurrilous data mining"!!! blah blah blah

The other thing is that this was a grauniad poll, so its scewed against Bush.

[rikzilla]

Well,

I thought Tricky's assertion was a little suspect, so I searched for a poll, and that was the very first one I found. However, after searching further, I can find no polls (skewed or otherwise) that show a "overwhelming majority" against Bush.

I'm still wondering where my friend Tricky's getting his info,...The Neverland Times mayhap?? ;)

-z

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by rikzilla
The poll I quoted does, I admit, fall short of asking the more pertinent question...however, it still shows that the British people are not "overwhelmingly pi**ed with Bush"

que?
-z

The poll shows that the 1002 randomly polled adults are not "overwhelmingly pi**ed with Bush". This is not quite the same as the "actual majority in the UK".

[richardm]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

I'd say between 10,000 and 60,000 tho'.

You're a good guesser :D

There's just been a Met. police estimate of 30,000 in the main march, but they estimate that there are "many more" making their way down there as of 16:30 GMT. Good natured so far. Probably a bit chilly for rioting. I hope.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by Zep
For the record, I happen to agree with the above two posts. I used to go on "demos" when I was younger, but they usually turned out to be nothing more than partially organised mobocracy. Waste of time and energy.

So I'll second those thoughts - want to make a difference? Drop the sticks, stones and placards, get into politics, get elected, and make the change that way. It isn't hard in most countries if you REALLY want to do it.

Hmm.. funny, Ho Chi Minh tried that for 30 years and it didn't seem to go anywhere.. a war worked though....

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Sir!

You accuse me of "scurrilous data mining"!!! How dare you! (slapping Mr. M with gauntlet) I demand satisfaction!!!

...or, absent that, I would ask you to please tell me what "overwhelming majority" means since that was what I was taking Tricky to task for. The poll I quoted does, I admit, fall short of asking the more pertinent question...however, it still shows that the British people are not "overwhelmingly pi**ed with Bush"

que?
-z

Tricky can back his own arguments. I was only taking exception to your assertion that the majority of Brits support Bush, and using the Grauniad poll to support it.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Malachi151


Hmm.. funny, Ho Chi Minh tried that for 30 years and it didn't seem to go anywhere.. a war worked though....

Yes, alas, politics is a crooked game. It's time to get the power out of the pollies' hands and back into the peoples'.

[Malachi151]

Photos of the protests prior to the war:

http://nowar.itgo.com/photo3.html

[Tony]

Originally posted by Malachi151


Hmm.. funny, Ho Chi Minh tried that for 30 years and it didn't seem to go anywhere.. a war worked though....


A war "worked"? I dunno, i'd call a despotic government and no civil rights as a result to be a failure.

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

Watching some flag burning last night- It just struck me how assinine and childish this kind of behaviour is, specially in the context of a democracy. Want to change things? Then form an interest group, try and get elected, write to your MP, Hell! try voting for a change why not? This kind of behaviour is why, although I seriously dislike Bush, I would never participate in one of these protests.

In a nutshell Jon!

[Mr Manifesto]

Looks like the actual numbers were anywhere from 70 000 to 300 000.

I'm a bit dubious about the 300 000, to tell the truth.

Protesters topple Bush statue in London (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s994003.htm)

[Bjorn]

Organisers claim more than 150,000 joined the demonstration but police put the numbers closer to 100,000. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3223780.stm

[Ed]

Originally posted by Judith

Did you even read the topic? Apparently you think the English Parliament is 'a screaming rabble'. Good diplomacy crackmonkey!

Georgy boy is best in a canned speech or shooting the breeze with people one on one... like a used
car salesman. If confronted on an intellectual level, he would be destroyed.

Have you engaged him in conversation? This canard has been repeated so many times it seems to have taken root.