Was Woodrow Wilson a conspiracy theoriest?

[hamelekim]

Either he was a nutcase, or he was speaking the truth... If he was speaking the truth we need to take a hard look at our world and question our view of reality.

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence

Some of the biggest men in the United States....are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. they know there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive that they had better not speak above their breaths when they speak in condemnation of it - Woodrow Wilson

[Foolmewunz]

Funny that for such a well-published person, no one can ever cite the exact source of that quote. (Meaning the first, embroidered one.... I'm not at all familiar with the second one.)

Just sayin', ya know.

[hamelekim]

Funny that for such a well-published person, no one can ever cite the exact source of that quote. (Meaning the first, embroidered one.... I'm not at all familiar with the second one.)

Just sayin', ya know.

On the first quote, if you do some research you can find out about it.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Woodrow_Wilson

And further, the reference to "National Economy and the Banking System, Senate Documents, Col. 3 No. 23" is BS

The quote is mostly words Wilson actually wrote, with the first two sentences of it apparently being incorrect and the rest taken from Wilson's The New Freedom. Below is what one can actually derive from connecting together two passages from The New Freedom:

A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is privately concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men ... [W]e have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world—no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men.

All of the above is from Woodrow Wilson's The New Freedom: A Call for the Emancipation of the Generous Energies of a People (New York and Garden City: Doubleday, Page & Company, 1913).[8] In this same work, Wilson also wrote the below:

Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.

I found a better version of the second quote which is from his book The New Freedom.

"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."----President Woodrow Wilson (in The New Freedom, 1913)

Here is a link to the wiki page discussing the book http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Freedom

Given that he did indeed say these things, what do you think?

As a skeptic, do you let your view that there are no secret societies, and no conspiracies to control the world or societies block out any information that might lead you to another conclusion?

[Rika]

Indepdent of the truth value of the statements, they do not provide enough evidence of anything.

[Foolmewunz]

Hamelekim,
Yeah - I know about the part he wrote. It's the melodrama that makes the whole quote exciting to libertarians and anti-Fedders. And the melodrama is farily well known to not be anything ever written or uttered by Wilson.

[parky76]

Either he was a nutcase, or he was speaking the truth... If he was speaking the truth we need to take a hard look at our world and question our view of reality.

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence

Some of the biggest men in the United States....are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. they know there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive that they had better not speak above their breaths when they speak in condemnation of it - Woodrow Wilson

It would be nice if Wilson was a little more specific. And by the way, if the USA didn't borrow money, we would have no money.

[Hokulele]

Been there, done that.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4034832#post4034832

[Hans]

For those that don't want to read thru it, he was talking about Trusts, in particular interlocking directorates, and horizontal mergers, what I believe were also known as monopolies.

[stilicho]

Either he was a nutcase, or he was speaking the truth... If he was speaking the truth we need to take a hard look at our world and question our view of reality.

Wilson is still controversial but definitely a man of his times. I wrote a brief review of The New Freedom here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=123607&page=2

Wilson was not a conspiracy theorist whatsoever but has been a popular inclusion on CT sites. It's like using Eisenhower's "military-industrial complex" speech as some sort of proof of something. (Most people who use that Eisenhower quote out of its context forget that the original suspicion of the "MIC" was that "it" was actually working for the Soviets; it only acquired its 'leftist' CT meaning after the escalation of the war in Indochina).

Those who decry Wilson as a starry-eyed idealist fail to mention that most of his 'Fourteen Points'--the subject of so much acrimony--are widely accepted today as responsible and nearly irreversible.

I recommend reading both the full text of Wilson's book and any good intellectual or political history of the West in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. I recommended Tuchman's The Proud Tower, but there are several others worth reading too.

[Praktik]

As a skeptic, do you let your view that there are no secret societies, and no conspiracies to control the world or societies block out any information that might lead you to another conclusion?

Well I think there are different ways to read that quote. As someone who has spent a lot of time reading about the structure of capitalism, from wide-ranging sources, I read the quote as more of a reference to the network of competing elite blocs at the highest strata of power. We're talking the moguls and money men with influence over policy makers - whether overt or covert. Sometimes it can be as simple as there being compatible values and worldview between a politician and someone with money who wants to help his cause. Put simply, I can read and agree with the quote and still NOT believe there's a single shadow organizaton with an agreed upon agenda running everything. To my eyes, his quote is just as valid if he were referring to the systemic product of a constellation of elite blocs - some with very different histories, values, worldviews and agendas.

Woodrow's quote doesn't necessarily refer to masons, the illuminati or a like organization. There's no detail in there and the quote is vague enough for someone like you and someone like me to take different meanings from it.

I can assimilate this quote of his without having to admit the validity of conspiracy theories.

[Myron Proudfoot]

If I may, I have some expertise in Wilson. My doctorate is in American History, I teach American history at a local university, my area of specialty is Woodrow Wilson, and my book on Wilson's theology is being published by a good university press in the next year (I am waiting for the galley proof now.)

The first quote, "unwittingly ruined my country" is complete and total ********. Wilson never said it. Indeed, he was proud of the Federal Reserve Act for the rest of his life because it put (some) government control over the banking system that did not exist until then.

The second quote is from pages 13-14 in "The New Freedom." Wilson was speaking of monopolies, and NOT some secret oggy-boogdy NWO secret conspiracy. The next paragraph reads..

They know that America is not a place of which it can be said, as it used to be, that a man may choose his own calling and pursue it just as far as his abilities enable him to pursue it; because to-day, if he enters certain fields, there are organizations which will use means against him that will prevent his building up a business which they do not want to have built up; organizations that will see to it that the ground is cut from under him -and the markets shut against him. For if he begins to sell to certain retail dealers, to any retail dealers, the monopoly will refuse to sell to those dealers, and those dealers, afraid, will not buy the new man's wares.

See it for yourself. The full text is in Google Books.

Did Wilson believe that men would sometimes act in secret to advance their owns interests? Of course, he was too experienced in university politics (not to mention national politics) to not believe so. That does not mean he believed in all-powerful secret societies trying to shape history for their own goals.

[parky76]

If I may, I have some expertise in Wilson. My doctorate is in American History, I teach American history at a local university, my area of specialty is Woodrow Wilson, and my book on Wilson's theology is being published by a good university press in the next year (I am waiting for the galley proof now.)

The first quote, "unwittingly ruined my country" is complete and total ********. Wilson never said it. Indeed, he was proud of the Federal Reserve Act for the rest of his life because it put (some) government control over the banking system that did not exist until then.

The second quote is from pages 13-14 in "The New Freedom." Wilson was speaking of monopolies, and NOT some secret oggy-boogdy NWO secret conspiracy. The next paragraph reads..

They know that America is not a place of which it can be said, as it used to be, that a man may choose his own calling and pursue it just as far as his abilities enable him to pursue it; because to-day, if he enters certain fields, there are organizations which will use means against him that will prevent his building up a business which they do not want to have built up; organizations that will see to it that the ground is cut from under him -and the markets shut against him. For if he begins to sell to certain retail dealers, to any retail dealers, the monopoly will refuse to sell to those dealers, and those dealers, afraid, will not buy the new man's wares.

See it for yourself. The full text is in Google Books.

Did Wilson believe that men would sometimes act in secret to advance their owns interests? Of course. Of course, he was too experienced in university politics (not to mention national politics) to not believe so. That does not mean he believed in all-powerful secret societies trying to shape history for their own goals.

How much does the Fed pay you?????

:D

[Myron Proudfoot]

Not enough, but they do pay in gold! ;)

[Foolmewunz]

Well, I see my work is finished here.

Get 'em up, Scout!

[Elizabeth I]

Not enough, but they do pay in gold! ;)

But do you get enough string to allow you to adequately prepare for the coming catastrophe?

[Caustic Logic]

Either he was a nutcase, or he was speaking the truth... If he was speaking the truth we need to take a hard look at our world and question our view of reality.


Whoa, reality just went all sideways! I've seen these quotes around as pointing to a sinister network, either Freemasons, or whatever, including the Fed. Too bad the first quote is apparently false, because it really clarified he was talking about the fed.

Here's another mind-blowing admission of secret conspiracy from the late President Bush, quite clearly referring to, um, the Department of Homeland Security (check out how dramatic this is):

"They're the heirs of all the murderous ideologies of the 20th century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way to where it ends in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies."

I'm not sure where this is from, but you can clearly see where he's heading. No wonder he had to be rushed out of town and replaced!

No malice intended with this sarcasm. Hugs for hamelekim! What do you think, now that you've gotten feedback?

[kageki]

Did Wilson believe that men would sometimes act in secret to advance their owns interests? Of course, he was too experienced in university politics (not to mention national politics) to not believe so. That does not mean he believed in all-powerful secret societies trying to shape history for their own goals.

I am not sure if you realize this, but that is the definition of conspiracy.

You are right and I agree that based purely on these quotes that it does not mean Wilson believed in "all-powerful secret societies", but that is also a conjecture and not the only definition of a conspiracy.

In the climate we live in today, you can't even say that "men would sometimes act in secret to advance their owns interests", but that is what Wilson was saying and it is true.

[Praktik]

I am not sure if you realize this, but that is the definition of conspiracy.

You are right and I agree that based purely on these quotes that it does not mean Wilson believed in "all-powerful secret societies", but that is also a conjecture and not the only definition of a conspiracy.

In the climate we live in today, you can't even say that "men would sometimes act in secret to advance their owns interests", but that is what Wilson was saying and it is true.

No you can, its done all the time. Heck, a lot of the coverage of the financial crisis says so in covering the incestuous relationship of regulators with business, the ratings agencies and the companies they were rating, the games played within companies such as Madoff's, Enron, etc. Even the Bush case for war in Iraq is often portrayed that way. Another good example would be Cheney's energy policy in the first term, the transcripts of his meetings with top energy execs are still classified.

Myron's post is in no way incompatible with the idea that "men would sometimes act in secret to advance their own interests", where Myron, myself and others in this thread differ from you is on the structure of these "conspiracies", their scope, their impact and their relevance to policy outcomes.

[kageki]

No you can, its done all the time. Heck, a lot of the coverage of the financial crisis says so in covering the incestuous relationship of regulators with business, the ratings agencies and the companies they were rating, the games played within companies such as Madoff's, Enron, etc. Even the Bush case for war in Iraq is often portrayed that way. Another good example would be Cheney's energy policy in the first term, the transcripts of his meetings with top energy execs are still classified.

Myron's post is in no way incompatible with the idea that "men would sometimes act in secret to advance their own interests", where Myron, myself and others in this thread differ from you is on the structure of these "conspiracies", their scope, their impact and their relevance to policy outcomes.

They just don't use the word conspiracy, but if I did say for instance Cheney was involved in a conspiracy then I can only surmise that people would have a problem with it.

I am not sure how you can differ from myself when you even don't know my positions. The financial crisis has had a global impact. What bigger scope is there? Now certainly you can argue that there were no "all-powerful secret societies" involved, but it did have a global impact that shaped history for their own goals. The line seems to be vanishingly small and the only criteria that there are no "all-powerful secret societies" involved which is fine by me. It still sounds like a conspiracy.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Either he was a nutcase, or he was speaking the truth... If he was speaking the truth we need to take a hard look at our world and question our view of reality.

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence

Some of the biggest men in the United States....are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. they know there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive that they had better not speak above their breaths when they speak in condemnation of it - Woodrow Wilson



You're wasting your time.

The people here are in on the fix.

They want to stay in the matrix. They love the matrix. They want to believe the matrix so bad that they mock people that break the matrix.

Woodrow wilson was referring to the royal families. Rothschild, rockefeller, warburg, schiff(but don't ever blame the jews).

Wilson was a college professor. A smart man, living in brave times. If he wrote his memoirs I would want a copy.

[Praktik]

You're wasting your time.

The people here are in on the fix.

They want to stay in the matrix. They love the matrix. They want to believe the matrix so bad that they mock people that break the matrix.

Woodrow wilson was referring to the royal families. Rothschild, rockefeller, warburg, schiff(but don't ever blame the jews).

Wilson was a college professor. A smart man, living in brave times. If he wrote his memoirs I would want a copy.

And you wouldn't find that "quote" in it. I also would like to read his memoirs.

Do you think that I'm one of the people who "wants to stay in the matrix"? If so, what about my posts in this thread makes you think that?

[malcolmxwarrior]

And you wouldn't find that "quote" in it. I also would like to read his memoirs.

Do you think that I'm one of the people who "wants to stay in the matrix"? If so, what about my posts in this thread makes you think that?

Generalization.

Relax.

[Praktik]

I'm a pretty chill guy

[Caustic Logic]

They just don't use the word conspiracy, but if I did say for instance Cheney was involved in a conspiracy then I can only surmise that people would have a problem with it.

IMO, you're correct on that. However, if you were to say they all "conspired," that would be fine. So it's maybe just semantics and impressions.

MXW: EVEN IF you're right about the big conspiracy, it would behoove you to check out the contents of this thread before you start talking about Matrices and reality and Rothschilds. But maybe you're right and it's all just a waste of time, a bunch of boring yakkity yak where you have to find out you're wrong sometimes...

[kageki]

IMO, you're correct on that. However, if you were to say they all "conspired," that would be fine. So it's maybe just semantics and impressions.

MXW: EVEN IF you're right about the big conspiracy, it would behoove you to check out the contents of this thread before you start talking about Matrices and reality and Rothschilds. But maybe you're right and it's all just a waste of time, a bunch of boring yakkity yak where you have to find out you're wrong sometimes...

Well I did and I quoted one such definition that is apparently more amenable to you folks without venturing into conspiracy territory. So a little summary of some definitions used:

- "Trusts, in particular interlocking directorates, and horizontal mergers, what I believe were also known as monopolies"

- "Most people who use that Eisenhower quote out of its context forget that the original suspicion of the "MIC" was that "it" was actually working for the Soviets"

- "network of competing elite blocs at the highest strata of power"

- "men would sometimes act in secret to advance their owns interests"

Interestingly, all of these definitions to an extent have been used by people labeled as "conspiracy theorists" and these definitions certainly do qualify as a conspiracy.

So the only problem is that there isn't an underlying organization of sorts that unites them all in a deliberate plan such as this description:


http://www.educate-yourself.org/nwo/

There is a worldwide conspiracy being orchestrated by an extremely powerful and influential group of genetically-related individuals (at least at the highest echelons) which include many of the world's wealthiest people, top political leaders, and corporate elite, as well as members of the so-called Black Nobility of Europe (dominated by the British Crown) whose goal is to create a One World (fascist) Government, stripped of nationalistic and regional boundaries, that is obedient to their agenda. Their intention is to effect complete and total control over every human being on the planet and to dramatically reduce the world's population by 5.5 Billion people. While the name New World Order is a term frequently used today when referring to this group, it's more useful to identify the principal organizations, institutions, and individuals who make up this vast interlocking spiderweb of elite conspirators.

Fine by me as technically there is no proof of such coordinated action. Rather the line is drawn that conspiracies do happen by more or less chance when interests happen to align. Again the line seems to be getting smaller as events unfold and more information is being made public. To be determined.


While we are at it I thought I will add Winston Churchill to the list with this article he wrote talking about the Jewish people:

ZIONISM versus BOLSHEVISM.
A STRUGGLE FOR THE SOUL OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE.
http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/siteinfo/newsround/zvb/zvb1.html


International Jews.

In violent opposition to all this sphere of Jewish effort rise the schemes of the International Jews. The adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men reared up among the unhappy populations of countries where Jews are persecuted on account of their race. Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all spiritual hopes of the next world. This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played, as a modern writer, Mrs. Webster, has so ably shown, a definitely recognisable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire.

However he concludes with an unwavering support of Zionism or the creation of the homeland for Jews. Anyways he sure sounds like a conspiracy theorist to me.

[malcolmxwarrior]

Well I did and I quoted one such definition that is apparently more amenable to you folks without venturing into conspiracy territory. So a little summary of some definitions used:

Interestingly, all of these definitions to an extent have been used by people labeled as "conspiracy theorists" and these definitions certainly do qualify as a conspiracy.

So the only problem is that there isn't an underlying organization of sorts that unites them all in a deliberate plan such as this description:



Fine by me as technically there is no proof of such coordinated action. Rather the line is drawn that conspiracies do happen by more or less chance when interests happen to align. Again the line seems to be getting smaller as events unfold and more information is being made public. To be determined.


While we are at it I thought I will add Winston Churchill to the list with this article he wrote talking about the Jewish people:

ZIONISM versus BOLSHEVISM.
A STRUGGLE FOR THE SOUL OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE.
http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/siteinfo/newsround/zvb/zvb1.html



However he concludes with an unwavering support of Zionism or the creation of the homeland for Jews. Anyways he sure sounds like a conspiracy theorist to me.

They're not theories anymore. They have come to light.

They are certainly conspiracies. No question People are conspiring behind the scenes to get their agenda passed. That is the truth.

[Myron Proudfoot]

Actually Wilson's papers in the Library of Congress contain what I called his "nut file." His secretary, Joesph Tumulty, gave him a selection of letters warning about the Jews, the Catholics, the Masons, pretty much every group you ever heard of (except for space aliens and lizard people.) Wilson didn't answer such notes and from his comments on the notes and to Tumulty he thought that such people were at best idiots and probably "crazy." He was amused that extreme protestants sometimes claimed he was a secret member of the Knights of Columbus and some extreme Catholics thought he was an anti-Catholic bigot and Mason. Wilson wondered to Tumulty how he could a member of two such disparate conspiracies at the same time and how, as a Presbyterian, he could be a member of the Knights of Columbus...

[Myron Proudfoot]

But do you get enough string to allow you to adequately prepare for the coming catastrophe?

No, but I do keep my towel with me at all times...

[malcolmxwarrior]

Actually Wilson's papers in the Library of Congress contain what I called his "nut file." His secretary, Joesph Tumulty, gave him a selection of letters warning about the Jews, the Catholics, the Masons, pretty much every group you ever heard of (except for space aliens and lizard people.) Wilson didn't answer such notes and from his comments on the notes and to Tumulty he thought that such people were at best idiots and probably "crazy." He was amused that extreme protestants sometimes claimed he was a secret member of the Knights of Columbus and some extreme Catholics thought he was an anti-Catholic bigot and Mason. Wilson wondered to Tumulty how he could a member of two such disparate conspiracies at the same time and how, as a Presbyterian, he could be a member of the Knights of Columbus...


Sometimes they will purposefully put out disinformation to discredit and flame the ones that are really onto something.

I consider those "vatican jesuit world order" types to be plants put in to make the NWO global banking cartel types look like nutters.

But people on this site would much rather put their hands over their ears and yell "LA LA LA LA LA LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA LA LA"

[Horatius]

Now certainly you can argue that there were no "all-powerful secret societies" involved, but it did have a global impact that shaped history for their own goals.



It's most likely that there were people conspiring to advance their own goals, and there actions likely had a global impact that shaped history, as you describe. The problem is when you assume that the outcome that occurred is the goal they were seeking.



Sometimes they will purposefully put out disinformation to discredit and flame the ones that are really onto something.

I consider those "vatican jesuit world order" types to be plants put in to make the NWO global banking cartel types look like nutters.

But people on this site would much rather put their hands over their ears and yell "LA LA LA LA LA LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA LA LA"


And the "vatican jesuit world order" types would say the same thing about you.

Could you suggest a mechanism by which those of us who aren't nutters could determine who was lying? KThxBye!

[kageki]

Actually Wilson's papers in the Library of Congress contain what I called his "nut file." His secretary, Joesph Tumulty, gave him a selection of letters warning about the Jews, the Catholics, the Masons, pretty much every group you ever heard of (except for space aliens and lizard people.) Wilson didn't answer such notes and from his comments on the notes and to Tumulty he thought that such people were at best idiots and probably "crazy." He was amused that extreme protestants sometimes claimed he was a secret member of the Knights of Columbus and some extreme Catholics thought he was an anti-Catholic bigot and Mason. Wilson wondered to Tumulty how he could a member of two such disparate conspiracies at the same time and how, as a Presbyterian, he could be a member of the Knights of Columbus...

That's still interesting to know that his secretary had handed him papers on such topics to begin with.

Do you know his views on Masons? Did he think they are just a bunch of nice chaps considering George Washington is a famous Mason himself? Apparently an entire masonic memorial was built for GW around Wilson's time:

http://www.gwmemorial.org/index.php

I wonder if Wilson read Churchill's article as well. Curious to read these papers..

[malcolmxwarrior]

Secret societies do exist. Conspiracies do take place. To deny that is just plain tomfoolery.

Wasn't 9/11 a conspiracy?

Weren't the muslims conspiring amongst themselves to attack America? Weren't they theorizing on how it would pan out? Wasn't it a conspiracy theory on 9/10?

What was it on 9/11? An event?

From now on the word "Conspiracy theory' cannot be used to discredit someone.

[parky76]

Secret societies do exist. Conspiracies do take place. To deny that is just plain tomfoolery.

Wasn't 9/11 a conspiracy?

Weren't the muslims conspiring amongst themselves to attack America? Weren't they theorizing on how it would pan out? Wasn't it a conspiracy theory on 9/10?

What was it on 9/11? An event?

From now on the word "Conspiracy theory' cannot be used to discredit someone.

a conspiracy to commit a crime and a "Conspiracy Theory" are two very different things. but you know that.

[malcolmxwarrior]

a conspiracy to commit a crime and a "Conspiracy Theory" are two very different things. but you know that.

Following me!!!!! LOL!


How were they different? Enlighten me. Teach me.

If I were to have said 09/10/01 that "hey man, a bunch of muslims are gonna hijack planes and hit the WTC and the pentagon tomorrow at 09:00AM"

I would hear "CONSPIRACY THEORIST!"

Now if you're talking cover-up that's different. Like the moon landing. IF you say "hey man there are a bunch of higher-ups that are conspiring to keep the REAL truth about the moon landing because of X"

That is a cover-up. A cover -up and a conspiracy theory.

[Caustic Logic]

Well I did and I quoted one such definition that is apparently more amenable to you folks without venturing into conspiracy territory.

Not for my sake, don't worry. I'm a CT at heart, just have gotten very reticent to follow up on a theory and talk about it unless I've checked it out a bit. IMO conspiracies abound, small and large, and sometimes cross over and feed into each other, build off each other. I don't believe in a master plan worked out by the Joos in ancient times, but the same ideas (NWO) can keep re-emerging all on their own. Natural trend of human history or conspiratorial plan? Both! Human history is to conspire and concentrate power.

Thanks for the Churchill quote, I'd never read that, but heard of it. Isn't it odd that the problem with the Joos in that era (early 1900s to, say 1945) was the "international" part, a la Protocols of Zion, and the answer, as Churchill summed up, was Zionism. Take the "inter" off and make them national Jews. Considering the only major, known, worldwide Jewish conspiracy in this era was the acquisition of Israel, and it looks ironic... or conspiratorial but I needn't go there in a derail.

[Caustic Logic]

Secret societies do exist. Conspiracies do take place. To deny that is just plain tomfoolery.

Wasn't 9/11 a conspiracy?

Weren't the muslims conspiring amongst themselves to attack America? Weren't they theorizing on how it would pan out? Wasn't it a conspiracy theory on 9/10?

Actually that's a conspiracy. The theory is when you're not in it, it may not exist, and you're trying to figure it out, or act like you already did, or something.

From now on the word "Conspiracy theory' cannot be used to discredit someone.

Maybe it shouldn't, but it will. Some people keep running all around with the dumbest obnoxious theories giving the trade a bad name. Others insist on not seeing past that. Life sucks.

[stilicho]

Actually Wilson's papers in the Library of Congress contain what I called his "nut file." His secretary, Joesph Tumulty, gave him a selection of letters warning about the Jews, the Catholics, the Masons, pretty much every group you ever heard of (except for space aliens and lizard people.) Wilson didn't answer such notes and from his comments on the notes and to Tumulty he thought that such people were at best idiots and probably "crazy." He was amused that extreme protestants sometimes claimed he was a secret member of the Knights of Columbus and some extreme Catholics thought he was an anti-Catholic bigot and Mason. Wilson wondered to Tumulty how he could a member of two such disparate conspiracies at the same time and how, as a Presbyterian, he could be a member of the Knights of Columbus...

(Source: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/14811 )

I certainly defer to your expertise, Myron, as I merely got my BA in history and not in American History. But I did read the book (as I did another maligned book by Brzezinski). I've encouraged the CT crowd to read it too before making their assessment of Wilson.

I agree with your point that Wilson was rightly proud of the Federal Reserve. His "money trusts" were personified in JP Morgan, who had to personally inject liquidity into the markets in 1907 and 1908 just to keep the system afloat. The CT crowd has to imagine a world in which the entire wealth of its citizens was tied to the whim of a single individual. I frankly cannot see how anyone in their right mind would argue that was a good thing but you see it over and over and over again on JREF and other boards.

I have read economic histories dating back to canal stock swindles of the 1820s and have little doubt that the 'tax' of regulation is far preferable to the alternatives. Any bets that Glass-Steagall will be back in vogue in the next couple of years?

[Horatius]

Actually that's a conspiracy. The theory is when you're not in it, it may not exist, and you're trying to figure it out, or act like you already did, or something.



Not that he will understand the difference, but it's nice to see someone who admits to CT leanings who also appreciates why we get so annoyed with most CTists.


Maybe it shouldn't, but it will. Some people keep running all around with the dumbest obnoxious theories giving the trade a bad name. Others insist on not seeing past that. Life sucks.



The problem is, when has someone who has promoted what has been generally regarded, and derided, as a CT actually produced anything of use to those of us who are not inclined to belief in CTs? I'm willing to accept the possibility that an inclination to seeing everything as a conspiracy could potentially provide us some useful insight into how the world works. The problem is, I've never seen that actually happen.

Can you show us any examples of CT thinking that clearly provided an understanding of some event in history that was better, more insightful, or whatever, than standard social/historical thought?

And if such an occurrence has happened, I ask again: How can those of us not inclined to CT thinking differentiate between the one correct belief, and the dozens, hundreds, or thousands of incorrect ones?

[Caustic Logic]

Not that he will understand the difference, but it's nice to see someone who admits to CT leanings who also appreciates why we get so annoyed with most CTists.






The problem is, when has someone who has promoted what has been generally regarded, and derided, as a CT actually produced anything of use to those of us who are not inclined to belief in CTs? I'm willing to accept the possibility that an inclination to seeing everything as a conspiracy could potentially provide us some useful insight into how the world works. The problem is, I've never seen that actually happen.

Can you show us any examples of CT thinking that clearly provided an understanding of some event in history that was better, more insightful, or whatever, than standard social/historical thought?

Very good question(s) and central to my own self-appointed mission (perhaps fail). There's David Icke's reptilian overlords theory... No, wait. Lessee, I feel those who accept, or seriously consider, a conspiracy in the sinking of the USS Maine, have a leg-up on those who blame fate for that explosion. Until they were proven any CTs about the Watergate burglars being connected to the President were just CTs - that were correct. The German people might have benefitted from a touch of paranoia as they were whipped up with the Reichstag Fire to embrace and protect nascent Naziism from the Bolshevik conspiracy. Russians regarding the 9/99 apartment bombings.

And of course they could have used an ability to do something about it. The Third Reich went ahead and happened, as did the Spanish American War and the 2nd Chechen war. The Nixon one was handled, but that very fact led to its own conspiracy theories (the "silent coup")... but the one is no longer a theory, so CTs by definition can not prove events one way or the other until they do and cease to be theories. This doesn't happen a lot at the highest levels of biggest theories, because of the high stakes, official efforts, and popular psychological blocks among the key populations (the people targeted for psy-op).

And if such an occurrence has happened, I ask again: How can those of us not inclined to CT thinking differentiate between the one correct belief, and the dozens, hundreds, or thousands of incorrect ones?

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? Evidence, imagination, skepticism, study, reflection? And you can never figure this stuff out 100%. It's probably not even worth it to most people - probably more useful to not worry about the poss. conspiracies behind events as to work towards making wise decisions instead of the snap reactions to every sunk ship and burned building that keep leading to war, expanding empires, and continued centralization of power. But I also like thinking about the people and networks who might be engineering all these events in the hopes of finding the magic formula that makes them quit. Probably delusional, but maybe worth another try...

[malcolmxwarrior]

True skeptics are skeptical of the original Explanations (9/11, Kennedy)

They don't cover their ears and scream "LA LA LA LA LA LA" Every time they bring up evidence that is contrary to their masters.

These faux skeptics want to believe. They want to believe the matrix. I pity them.

[parky76]

True skeptics are skeptical of the original Explanations (9/11, Kennedy)



One should be skeptical of things that do not seem right. Being skeptical just for the sake of being skeptical...is stupid.

Some people are skeptical of ANYTHING the government says. That's not being an intelligent skeptic. That's just being paranoid.

Some people are skeptical of ANYTHING Jews say. That's not being an intelligent skeptic..that's being an anti-Semite.

[malcolmxwarrior]

One should be skeptical of things that do not seem right.


Thank you for pointing out the super obvious dude:)

Thank you for following me:) I think you are my number one fan!

[parky76]

Thank you for pointing out the super obvious dude:)

Thank you for following me:) I think you are my number one fan!

The ADL pays me very well to do what I do.