Jesus as role-model

[Bikewer]

I've listened to a number of contemporary Christian authorities talk about how Jesus led a "perfect" life to give believers an example of how to live their own.

Most of these folks are of the more contemporary group that appear to be soft-pedaling fire-and-brimstone Evangelical messages.

Still.... Jesus, after his miraculous birth, does essentially nothing for most of his life, other than exhibiting a bit of childhood precocity. Presumably, he helps out around the carpenter shop, but I don't recall the scriptures going into any detail on that...

Anyway, after living at home for thirty-ish years, he takes up the job of itinerant street preacher, wandering around and working the odd miracle or two to give his ministry some creds. He doesn't marry, found a store-front church, or anything of the sort.
He then annoys the civil authorities to the extent that he's arrested, tried, and executed.

Hmmm.....Hard to figure how we might glean "perfect life" from all this. Most of us don't seem to be able to work up a decent miracle, and street preaching will get you arrested sooner or later in most states.
Being nice to the poor and downtrodden is all very well, but it doesn't seem that we could expect selfless ministry from most folks...

[Neverfly]

We have very little evidence as to how, exactly and in detail, he lived his life.

Any discussion on the topic will be based solely on emotional speculation determined by what one believes and not necessarily anything tangible or accurate.

[JetLeg]

I've listened to a number of contemporary Christian authorities talk about how Jesus led a "perfect" life to give believers an example of how to live their own.

Most of these folks are of the more contemporary group that appear to be soft-pedaling fire-and-brimstone Evangelical messages.

Still.... Jesus, after his miraculous birth, does essentially nothing for most of his life, other than exhibiting a bit of childhood precocity. Presumably, he helps out around the carpenter shop, but I don't recall the scriptures going into any detail on that...

Anyway, after living at home for thirty-ish years, he takes up the job of itinerant street preacher, wandering around and working the odd miracle or two to give his ministry some creds. He doesn't marry, found a store-front church, or anything of the sort.
He then annoys the civil authorities to the extent that he's arrested, tried, and executed.

Hmmm.....Hard to figure how we might glean "perfect life" from all this. Most of us don't seem to be able to work up a decent miracle, and street preaching will get you arrested sooner or later in most states.
Being nice to the poor and downtrodden is all very well, but it doesn't seem that we could expect selfless ministry from most folks...

I think it is the sermon on the mount that is considered as perfect, and not his behaviour.

[Pardalis]

I find him rather mysoginistic. But right, they'll say it was "part of the times"... :rolleyes:

[paximperium]

I think it is the sermon on the mount that is considered as perfect, and not his behaviour.
There are many who disagree.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Sermon_on_the_mount

[Fiona]

Posted this before but I think it apposite :)


Was He Married?
BY STEVIE SMITH

Was he married, did he try
To support as he grew less fond of them
Wife and family?

No,
He never suffered such a blow.

Did he feel pointless, feeble and distrait,
Unwanted by everyone and in the way?

From his cradle he was purposeful,
His bent strong and his mind full.

Did he love people very much
Yet find them die one day?

He did not love in the human way.

Did he ask how long it would go on,
Wonder if Death could be counted on for an end?

He did not feel like this,
He had a future of bliss.

Did he never feel strong
Pain for being wrong?

He was not wrong, he was right,
He suffered from others’, not his own, spite.

But there is no suffering like having made a mistake
Because of being of an inferior make.

He was not inferior,
He was superior.

He knew then that power corrupts but some must govern?

His thoughts were different.

Did he lack friends? Worse,
Think it was for his fault, not theirs?

He did not lack friends,
He had disciples he moulded to his ends.

Did he feel over-handicapped sometimes, yet must draw even?

How could he feel like this? He was the King of Heaven.

...find a sudden brightness one day in everything
Because a mood had been conquered, or a sin?

I tell you, he did not sin.

Do only human beings suffer from the irritation
I have mentioned? learn too that being comical
Does not ameliorate the desperation?

Only human beings feel this,
It is because they are so mixed.

All human beings should have a medal,
A god cannot carry it, he is not able.

A god is Man’s doll, you ass,
He makes him up like this on purpose.

He might have made him up worse.

He often has, in the past.

To choose a god of love, as he did and does,
Is a little move then?

Yes, it is.

A larger one will be when men
Love love and hate hate but do not deify them?

It will be a larger one.

[Hokulele]

Being nice to the poor and downtrodden is all very well, but it doesn't seem that we could expect selfless ministry from most folks...


Jesus wasn't even consistent about that:

And while he was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at table, a woman came with an alabaster flask of ointment of pure nard, very costly, and she broke the flask and poured it over his head. But there were some who said to themselves indignantly, "Why was the ointment thus wasted? For this ointment might have been sold for more than three hundred denarii, and given to the poor." And they reproached her.

But Jesus said, "Let her alone; why do you trouble her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you will, you can do good to them; but you will not always have me.

[HansMustermann]

1. Even if we take the sermon on the mount as good advice, there's a massive difference between "do what Jesus said" and "do what Jesus did." Taking Jesus as an example for how one should lead his life, is IMHO the latter.

2. Well, that said, I can't help feel a little sorry for the chap.

I mean, we're taught that Jesus had to die the most horrible and humiliating death, so we could be forgiven of sin. Let's pretend we're theists and actually believe all that. Now roll that around in your head a bit.

I mean, why? Who makes the rule and judges and decides whether to forgive or not? Right, God. Sin and doubly so original sin isn't some chemical contamination that is physically there until removed. "Original sin" just God judging you for something that your ancestors did.

Why can't he just go "ah, screw it, that old grudge against you guys is getting old, you're forgiven"? Why does he essentially have to pull an, "I'll forgive you guys if you torture my son horribly"?

Doubly so since, again, it's "forgiving" some people for something they didn't actually do themselves. It's forgiving them for something their ancestors did thousands of years ago. That's injust as it is.

Why the heck would God need to demand an injustice to stop doing his own injustice? What kind of loving father (both of humanity and more directly of jesus) would essentially say, "if you want me to stop hating you for something you didn't do, you must go and torture my other son"?

[JoeTheJuggler]

And what's up with cursing the fig tree?

12The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.


20In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"
It's meant to be a story about the power of faith, but it seems like Jesus was angry because the tree had no fruit even though it was out of season for that fruit. Doesn't sound very "perfect" to me.

[Pardalis]

I'll never live by "turn the other cheek", unless it's a butt cheek.

[Neverfly]

1. Even if we take the sermon on the mount as good advice, there's a massive difference between "do what Jesus said" and "do what Jesus did." Taking Jesus as an example for how one should lead his life, is IMHO the latter.

2. Well, that said, I can't help feel a little sorry for the chap.

I mean, we're taught that Jesus had to die the most horrible and humiliating death, so we could be forgiven of sin. Let's pretend we're theists and actually believe all that. Now roll that around in your head a bit.

I mean, why? Who makes the rule and judges and decides whether to forgive or not? Right, God. Sin and doubly so original sin isn't some chemical contamination that is physically there until removed. "Original sin" just God judging you for something that your ancestors did.

Why can't he just go "ah, screw it, that old grudge against you guys is getting old, you're forgiven"? Why does he essentially have to pull an, "I'll forgive you guys if you torture my son horribly"?

Doubly so since, again, it's "forgiving" some people for something they didn't actually do themselves. It's forgiving them for something their ancestors did thousands of years ago. That's injust as it is.

Why the heck would God need to demand an injustice to stop doing his own injustice? What kind of loving father (both of humanity and more directly of jesus) would essentially say, "if you want me to stop hating you for something you didn't do, you must go and torture my other son"?

Well.. Now I'm gonna put my foot in my mouth and talk about Barabbas.

His full title was Jesus Barabbas. Barabbas is Hebrew and can translate to "Son of God."

Barabbas also had disciples and gospels. He too traveled the land and preached.
In the old days, the bible called him by his proper title- Jesus Barabbas.
In more recent times, to stir up anti-semetism, it was shortened to simply Barabbas and he was made to look like an evil criminal- such that one could say the JEWS killed Christ...
however, it seems historically more accurate that Barabbas and Christ were birds of a feather.

So here was Pilate, by no means a righteous or just man... And brought before him was TWO Messiahs!
Fearing a bloodbath, he washed his hands of the matter, declaring that he would not deny the people their messiah- but they couldn't have TWO. They would need to decide who was their true messiah.
Rather than the Jews hating Christ, they simply had not chosen him as the True Messiah... Ironically... causing Christ to be the one remembered.

The crucifixion was likely carried out differently than the modern view.
The ankles were each nailed to either side of the main pile with a slat of wood on the outside to prevent the crucified from pulling his legs off the nails.
The wrists were nailed in similar fashion- not the palms.
In addition to this, his back was flogged- A Flog is a whip with fish bone embedded in it. It literally tears flesh from the back.

Horrible? Indeed. If you can imagine for a moment, your back torn to shreds, trying to alternate between standing on the nails through your ankles and hanging from those in your wrists in a desperate attempt to lessen the agony... It's no surprise that Jesus Christ was remembered over Barabbas.

Some say Barabbas continued to travel then- fading into anonymity, preaching, even may have had a family.
Some believe that it was Barabbas that traveled to India.

According to most Christians, the horror of Christs death is what made him a martyr and memorable. It is for that reason he had to undergo it.

No matter who or what he was- I cannot help but respect the man because according to all accounts, he faced it courageously.

[Neverfly]

And what's up with cursing the fig tree?


It's meant to be a story about the power of faith, but it seems like Jesus was angry because the tree had no fruit even though it was out of season for that fruit. Doesn't sound very "perfect" to me.

This is, I read somewhere, change on existing gospel in which it was a boy,not a tree.

The boy had jostled rudely into Jesus and Jesus touched the boys shoulder and told him he would be insolent no more and the boy dropped dead.

You can kinda see how upon reflection... They may have decided they didn't want that particular demonstration of power in the bible...

[Fiona]

I thought that particular story was in the apocrypha which were not included? And is told as a story of his childhood?

I cant remember which book though :(

[Neverfly]

I thought that particular story was in the apocrypha which were not included? And is told as a story of his childhood?

I cant remember which book though :(

It could be that too.

Really- I am not very smart...

[politas]

We have very little evidence as to how, exactly and in detail, he lived his life.
We have very little evidence that he lived his life at all.

[JetLeg]

His full title was Jesus Barabbas. Barabbas is Hebrew and can translate to "Son of God."


Hm... I know hebrew.

It is probably aramic, not hebrew - and can mean "son of father", not son of god.

[Neverfly]

Hm... I know hebrew.

It is probably aramic, not hebrew - and can mean "son of father", not son of god.

My references say Hebrew:
Bar - son
Abba - father.
In the case of intent- Father being referred to as the Holy Father. Remember- Barabbas was a TITLE not a NAME.

[Fiona]

Well it is telling that all the new testament apocrypha which deal with his childhood are not included now :). He was a horrible little boy, so when they left the naughty stuff out there was nothing left ;) And they couldn't even pretend a perfect life unless they did.

[Neverfly]

We have very little evidence that he lived his life at all.

We have more than a little evidence that he existed. I would consider it more likely that a man fitting the description existed compared to- Complete Myth.

However, we have very little reliable evidence as to his nature and the actual events.
We have some accounts, many of which contradict eachother and all of which are heavily biased and designed to inspire rather than inform.

[Monketey Ghost]

He sounded like an alright guy. I try to teach my kid to live essentially a Christian way. Excluding the gathering of homeless, and wharf-rats, and annoying authority, and being tortured and killed horribly.

I'd also hate to think people will kill in her name. "The power of Isabel shall strike thee down!" just hasn't got the same ring.

[Fiona]

Just don't let her lead her pals up a sunbeam to get rid of the clouds: they will fall off and die when they lose faith. There is precedent :)

[Bob Blaylock]

Jesus wasn't even consistent about that:And while he was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at table, a woman came with an alabaster flask of ointment of pure nard, very costly, and she broke the flask and poured it over his head. But there were some who said to themselves indignantly, "Why was the ointment thus wasted? For this ointment might have been sold for more than three hundred denarii, and given to the poor." And they reproached her.

But Jesus said, "Let her alone; why do you trouble her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you will, you can do good to them; but you will not always have me.


According to the account of this incident found in John 12 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/12/3-8#3), it was Judas who complained about the “waste” of the ointment, “This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.”

[HansMustermann]

We have more than a little evidence that he existed. I would consider it more likely that a man fitting the description existed compared to- Complete Myth.

Well, that wouldn't say much, though. Jesus was a very common name in Judea at the time. Heck, Barabbas's full name was Jesus Barabbas. (Nice choice Pilate gave the people, eh?)

(ETA: I should read more before posting. I see you already said that about Barabbas.)

So basically that a guy called Jesus existed and got killed by the Romans, is on par with saying that a guy named Ivan existed in the USSR in WW2 and got killed by the Germans. So what? There were thousands of Jesuses around, and the Romans nailed more than one.

[Hokulele]

According to the account of this incident found in John 12 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/12/3-8#3), it was Judas who complained about the “waste” of the ointment, “This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.”


And?

Even in the account in John, Jesus make it clear that there will always be poor people, so his (Jesus') comfort should take precedence.

Let them eat cake.

[HansMustermann]

Well.. Now I'm gonna put my foot in my mouth and talk about Barabbas.

His full title was Jesus Barabbas. Barabbas is Hebrew and can translate to "Son of God."

Barabbas also had disciples and gospels. He too traveled the land and preached.
In the old days, the bible called him by his proper title- Jesus Barabbas.
In more recent times, to stir up anti-semetism, it was shortened to simply Barabbas and he was made to look like an evil criminal- such that one could say the JEWS killed Christ...
however, it seems historically more accurate that Barabbas and Christ were birds of a feather.

So here was Pilate, by no means a righteous or just man... And brought before him was TWO Messiahs!
Fearing a bloodbath, he washed his hands of the matter, declaring that he would not deny the people their messiah- but they couldn't have TWO. They would need to decide who was their true messiah.
Rather than the Jews hating Christ, they simply had not chosen him as the True Messiah... Ironically... causing Christ to be the one remembered.

The crucifixion was likely carried out differently than the modern view.
The ankles were each nailed to either side of the main pile with a slat of wood on the outside to prevent the crucified from pulling his legs off the nails.
The wrists were nailed in similar fashion- not the palms.
In addition to this, his back was flogged- A Flog is a whip with fish bone embedded in it. It literally tears flesh from the back.

Horrible? Indeed. If you can imagine for a moment, your back torn to shreds, trying to alternate between standing on the nails through your ankles and hanging from those in your wrists in a desperate attempt to lessen the agony... It's no surprise that Jesus Christ was remembered over Barabbas.

Some say Barabbas continued to travel then- fading into anonymity, preaching, even may have had a family.
Some believe that it was Barabbas that traveled to India.

According to most Christians, the horror of Christs death is what made him a martyr and memorable. It is for that reason he had to undergo it.

No matter who or what he was- I cannot help but respect the man because according to all accounts, he faced it courageously.

Well, what Pilate did is another interesting story by itself, but I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about the Christian dogma that Jesus was from the start destined to be executed, and that it's only by his death that we might be free of sin. Not just "so it would be remembered", but that it was a necessary thing in order to be forgiven.

And that's what I don't buy. There's an omnipotent god, he's the one doing the judging and damning for that sin, but somehow he can't forgive unless someone scourges and nails his son. WTF?

[Neverfly]

Well, what Pilate did is another interesting story by itself, but I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about the Christian dogma that Jesus was from the start destined to be executed, and that it's only by his death that we might be free of sin. Not just "so it would be remembered", but that it was a necessary thing in order to be forgiven.

And that's what I don't buy. There's an omnipotent god, he's the one doing the judging and damning for that sin, but somehow he can't forgive unless someone scourges and nails his son. WTF?

I agree and I don't buy it either.
It makes no sense and is even horrifying- as MUCH of the bible is.
Someone else mentioned the book of Leviticus...:rolleyes:

The traditional view that you are pointing at compares Jesus with the Lamb.
Supposedly...
Gods favorite metal is Gold.
His favorite number is 7.
His favorite Food is Lamb.

Yeah ok... and he doesn't like snakes. Neither did Indiana Jones...

This really is the defining difference between a thinker and a fundamentalist.
A thinker will examine it even if he ends up saying, "WHAT THE...!? HUH!?"
A Fundamentalist will just accept it no matter what and fearfully throw it out as Gods will rather than try to understand it.


Jesus was a wandering Zealot and a severe fundamentalist.
Although he was wise about a great many things, he was also quite closed minded in other regards. At least as Described By The Big Book...