Tony, immigrants, and Aztlan

[LFTKBS]

In this thread, (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29360) the inestimable Tony proposed some actions "to keep foreigners and enemies of the US from moving in taking over. See "Aztlan" (sp?). "

I asked him to expand on it; he said "I did expand on it. Do you know what Aztlan (sp?) is?"

I did, and I do.

I'm still waiting for that response, Tony. If Aztlan is something other than the mythological place of origin of the Aztecs, and it's germane to your anti-immigrant screed, here is your chance to one-up me.

[Tony]

This is taken out of context. Why dont you highlight what the "action" is? :rolleyes:


Anyway, please read up on this.

http://aztlan.net/

It's basically a group of racist Mexican Nazis that want to re-claim parts of America as their own and form a new, separate country.

[aerocontrols]

Why did you start a new thread for this?

[iankaplan]

I just read through the Aztlan website.

Hey, did you guys know that most American Jews have dual citizenship in Israel?

I sure didn't, but I read it on Aztlan so it must be true...

That "news" site is filled with anti-semitic propaganda. Tony's right to say that it is dangerous.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Tony


It's basically a group of racist Mexican Nazis that want to re-claim parts of America as their own and form a new, separate country.

Hmm a group of people wanting to reclaim old lands and form a new separate country out ofthem.........Sounds familiar.

I dont see why they would be anti semitic, they seem to have quite alot in common with zionists.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy


Hmm a group of people wanting to reclaim old lands and form a new separate country out ofthem.........Sounds familiar.

I dont see why they would be anti semitic, they seem to have quite alot in common with zionists.


You obviously didnt look at the website.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Tony



You obviously didnt look at the website.

No I havent. From the descriptions is seems like a place I wouldnt care to visit.

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Why did you start a new thread for this?

Because the old one was pretty dead, and I derive perverse thrills from starting new threads. I learned it from may flower.

Originally posted by Tony
This is taken out of context. Why dont you highlight what the "action" is?

Sure. You said you would, if you were president, "Campaign to make English the official language of America" in order "to keep foreigners and enemies of the US from moving in taking over."

That last part, properly parsed, should read "to keep foreigners from moving in and taking over, and to keep enemies of the US from moving in and taking over."

Apparently Tony feels that the only good immigrants are those who already speak English.

Re: Aztlan: okay, so . . . they hate Israel and they want to take back parts of the U.S. Southwest. Pretty virulent and wacky stuff. Seems to me they'd have a much easier time of it if they laid off the Jews for like two seconds, but that's they way they want to do it, I guess.

Tony, if I don't judge Argentina by the few Nazis hiding there, and I don't judge America by its Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells, why should I judge the entire country of Mexico and every person in La Raza because of some crappy website with bad ideas?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy


No I havent. From the descriptions is seems like a place I wouldnt care to visit.

Ok, let me get this straight. You challenge the characterization of this group as anti-Semitic without reading the website. Now you don’t want to read this website because they were characterized as anti-Semites? WTF kind of Forrest Gump logic is that?

[Tony]

Originally posted by LFTKBS

Apparently Tony feels that the only good immigrants are those who already speak English.


This is a strawman.

Tony, if I don't judge Argentina by the few Nazis hiding there, and I don't judge America by its Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells, why should I judge the entire country of Mexico and every person in La Raza because of some crappy website with bad ideas?

WTF?

There seems to be a disease of simplemindedness going around this website lately. I’m not asking you to judge them.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Tony


Ok, let me get this straight. You challenge the characterization of this group as anti-Semitic without reading the website. Now you don’t want to read this website because they were characterized as anti-Semites? WTF kind of Forrest Gump logic is that?

No Im sure theyre anti-semties. I was being sarcastic since I found it ironic that they are anti-semites yet theyre looking to do the same thing as the zionists.

I pop in and out on a work computer so Id rather not have cookies from racist websites on my computer. Thats why I didnt check out the place.

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by Tony
This is a strawman.

Perhaps. What should we do about immigration, then, if you want English as the official language? How do immigrants from non-English speaking countries file paperwork with the government if it's not in their language and there are no translators to help them? What exactly do you want? There's a lot of huffing and puffing from you on this subject, even though it stands at odds with your other views on the role of government.

The government is supposed to serve the people. Some citizens - citizens with the same rights as you - don't speak English as their first language. Why make them second-class citizens?

Originally posted by Tony
There seems to be a disease of simplemindedness going around this website lately. I’m not asking you to judge them.

Then why did you bring up aztlan.net? For kicks? You said you wanted to stop foreigners from coming in and taking over, and you specifically made reference to La Voz de Aztlan. What's the connection?

And if anyone's simpleminded, it's you, for thinking that making English the official language of the U.S. would solve any problems.

[Tony]

Originally posted by LFTKBS


Perhaps. What should we do about immigration, then, if you want English as the official language? How do immigrants from non-English speaking countries file paperwork with the government if it's not in their language and there are no translators to help them? What exactly do you want? There's a lot of huffing and puffing from you on this subject, even though it stands at odds with your other views on the role of government.

The government is supposed to serve the people. Some citizens - citizens with the same rights as you - don't speak English as their first language. Why make them second-class citizens?


Good points. But my concern is more in the area of politics, I dont think debates and political campaigns should be done in spanish.

Then why did you bring up aztlan.net? For kicks? You said you wanted to stop foreigners from coming in and taking over, and you specifically made reference to La Voz de Aztlan.

I brought it up because it is an example of what I was talking about. And dont blow this group, or rather this ideology, off as some wacko group. They have have powerful supporters, Cruz Bustemonte for example.

[Tmy]

Whats wrong with Spanish debates?? Do you object to the sign language interpreter too?

I agree that its better if we all speak english but I dont mind close captioining, SAP, large print ballots or other tactics used to inform voters.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
Whats wrong with Spanish debates?? Do you object to the sign language interpreter too?



I dunno, maybe the fact that a Spanish debate will be IN SPANISH, how am I suppose to know what the candidates are talking about?

I’ve never heard of a political debate in sign language.

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by Tony
I dunno, maybe the fact that a Spanish debate will be IN SPANISH, how am I suppose to know what the candidates are talking about?

I’ve never heard of a political debate in sign language.

Ah ho ho ho - yes, how would you know what they're talking about? Do you see what problems other people have with only-English governance? Tony, you're in no danger of having every debate or position be in a language other than English. Multiple languages = good. One language, set into law by the government = bad.

And the sign language interpreter is at most major events and almost all national debates.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Tony



I dunno, maybe the fact that a Spanish debate will be IN SPANISH, how am I suppose to know what the candidates are talking about?

I’ve never heard of a political debate in sign language.

Its going to be translated into spanish T. THe only way it could be in all Spanish is if all the candidates spoke spanish. I dont think thats the case.

[Tony]

Originally posted by LFTKBS


And the sign language interpreter is at most major events and almost all national debates.

But are there debates exclusively in sign language? That would be a more appropriate analogy.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy


Its going to be translated into spanish T. THe only way it could be in all Spanish is if all the candidates spoke spanish. I dont think thats the case.

Actually, that is the case. There was a Spanish only debate before the last governor election here in Texas. Politicians are blatantly selling out the american culture for political gain.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/03/01/texas.debate/

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by iankaplan
I just read through the Aztlan website.

Hey, did you guys know that most American Jews have dual citizenship in Israel?

I sure didn't, but I read it on Aztlan so it must be true...

That "news" site is filled with anti-semitic propaganda. Tony's right to say that it is dangerous.

We kind of do.

That is to say if we're of Jewish decent and from a nation on friendly terms, I think all you have to do for Israeli citizenship is ask.

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by Tony
Politicians are blatantly selling out the american culture for political gain.


You know, Tony, white speakers of English are not the only people who live here. American culture is more than baseball, English, Big Macs, and sitcoms. It's a big country. Learn to share.

[Tony]

Originally posted by LFTKBS


You know, Tony, white speakers of English are not the only people who live here. American culture is more than baseball, English, Big Macs, and sitcoms. It's a big country. Learn to share.


Im not talking about white people, or baseball, or big macs, or sitcoms.

As a matter of fact, I find baseball boring, I've never had a big mac, and I think sitcoms are generally bad. Why the stereotypes?

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by Tony
As a matter of fact, I find baseball boring, I've never had a big mac, and I think sitcoms are generally bad. Why the stereotypes?

Because, if I may channel my inner three year-old, you started it.

What "American" culture are politicians selling out by debating in the primary language of some of their constituents?

[JAR]

Latino promotion groups that intend to regain territories in the U.S.(which were lost by Mexico fair and square) give justification to the anti-Latino immigration sentiment found among Americans.

[JAR]

Originally posted by Tony
WTF?

There seems to be a disease of simplemindedness going around this website lately. I’m not asking you to judge them.
I know what you mean. I find you have to explain everything you say to leftists or they misinterpret it. I had to explain to Glory in another thread what a black person looks like.

[dsm]

Originally posted by LFTKBS
Multiple languages = good. One language, set into law by the government = bad.


Not to jump in on Tony's side, but why??

A single, predominant language in a country can have some beneficial effects:


It would promote an identity for the country (ie. "we all speak the same language").
It would promote more communication between the various peoples of the country because they have a common language to speak.
It might lead to greater understanding and acceptance of different people because they can communicate better (ie. a reduction in hate crimes).
It would vastly reduce the need for government to be conducted in multiple languages, thereby saving taxpayer money.


Sure, it puts a barrier in front of immigrants coming to this nation, but there is no reason that the government couldn't help them get over the barrier (ie. government-subsidized ESL courses). This would also make it easier for new immigrants to absorb other aspects of the American culture (have you ever tried to explain Mickey Mouse to an Iranian?)

[JAR]

Originally posted by LFTKBS


You know, Tony, white speakers of English are not the only people who live here. American culture is more than baseball, English, Big Macs, and sitcoms. It's a big country. Learn to share.
But white English speakers are the majority in America and you Sir are an idiot.

[JAR]

Originally posted by Tony
Im not talking about white people, or baseball, or big macs, or sitcoms.

As a matter of fact, I find baseball boring, I've never had a big mac, and I think sitcoms are generally bad. Why the stereotypes?
That's funny, I find baseball boring too. My dad likes it, but I have a hard time sitting through it. I watched an entire game the summer before the last one and afterwards I felt like I had just wasted a large portion of my day.

[JAR]

Originally posted by LFTKBS
If Aztlan is something other than the mythological place of origin of the Aztecs, and it's germane to your anti-immigrant screed, here is your chance to one-up me.
What you're using here is a common leftist tactic where you play stupid when you're losing an argument. This reminds me of when Zep started saying that a person is only a Caucasian if he or she lives in the Caucasus Mountains.

[Zep]

This reminds me of when Zep started saying that a person is only a Caucasian if he or she lives in the Caucasus Mountains. Not true, JAR. Don't put words in my mouth, OK? This is a derail. I merely asked the question why we use the "classification" Caucasoid for all "white folks"when it technically refers to only a very specific and small geographical location completely unrelated to where most of the "white folks" come from.

BTW, this separatist push by loonies is hardly limited to the American landmass. It has happened a few times in Australia too, and even now we have one or two of these self-proclaimed "kings" who say their small farm is actually some Principality or other. Here's a typical one! (http://www.huttriverprovinceusa.org/history.htm) Yep, looks like they will become a superpower REAL SOON NOW!!!

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by JAR

What you're using here is a common leftist tactic where you play stupid when you're losing an argument. This reminds me of when Zep started saying that a person is only a Caucasian if he or she lives in the Caucasus Mountains.

I don't know how I was losing the argument when Tony failed to respond in the first thread, and what you quoted is the first post in this thread. Tony kept asking "do you know what Aztlan is? Do you know what Aztlan is? Do you know what Aztlan is?"

I responded with the "mythological place of origin of the Aztecs," which is true. I didn't know about some obscure, poorly-designed site, and I sincerely apologize, JAR, for not magically knowing what little abstruse backcorner of the web Tony was talking about.

How am I playing stupid here again?

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by JAR

But white English speakers are the majority in America and you Sir are an idiot.

I know I should be expecting this from you already, JAR, but that's totally uncalled for. Democracy is more than simple majority rule. If, in fifty years, the majority of the U.S. population were, say, Hispanic Scientologists, would you think it's okay for them to implement Spanish as the U.S.'s official language and Scientology as its official religion?

If not, why not? According to you, the will of the majority supercedes all. Are you supposed to be a libertarian or a fascist?

[JAR]

Originally posted by LFTKBS
I know I should be expecting this from you already, JAR, but that's totally uncalled for. Democracy is more than simple majority rule. If, in fifty years, the majority of the U.S. population were, say, Hispanic Scientologists, would you think it's okay for them to implement Spanish as the U.S.'s official language and Scientology as its official religion?

If not, why not? According to you, the will of the majority supercedes all. Are you supposed to be a libertarian or a fascist?
It is recommendable for a government to manage things in such a way that the people it governs do not rebel and overthrow it. That's why it's important to govern according to the will of the majority.

If the majority of the population wants Spanish to be the official language, then so be it.

[Zep]

JAR, by English, do you mean Old English, Middle English, Oxford English, Scots English, Australian English, Subcontinental English, American English, Jive, or possibly Rap? You do realise that it is reasonably feasible to speak in these dialects (and, indeed, subdialects) using local idioms and not be understood in the slightest by speakers of another dialect and idiom?

JAR, have you ever travelled away from home much? If so, where to?

[JAR]

Originally posted by Zep
JAR, by English, do you mean Old English, Middle English, Oxford English, Scots English, Australian English, Subcontinental English, American English, Jive, or possibly Rap? You do realise that it is reasonably feasible to speak in these dialects (and, indeed, subdialects) using local idioms and not be understood in the slightest by speakers of another dialect and idiom?

JAR, have you ever travelled away from home much? If so, where to?
This is exactly what I was talking about. This is another example of a leftist playing stupid in order to delay having to come up with a convincing argument.

[JAR]

Originally posted by Zep
JAR, by English, do you mean Old English, Middle English, Oxford English, Scots English, Australian English, Subcontinental English, American English, Jive, or possibly Rap? You do realise that it is reasonably feasible to speak in these dialects (and, indeed, subdialects) using local idioms and not be understood in the slightest by speakers of another dialect and idiom?

JAR, have you ever travelled away from home much? If so, where to?
It's funny you should say that Zep, because in the Inter-racial marriages thread, where I argued that human races do exist, I said that the arguments being used to argue that human races don't exist could also be used to argue that the English language doesn't exist. But look here, as soon as I bring up the English language, someone argues it doesn't exist.

I'm starting to see the leftist way of thinking. According to leftist thinking, race, ethnicity and language only exist if they can be used to support leftist arguments. If they are used to support non-leftist arguments, suddenly they don't exist(according to the leftists).

[American]

Hey JAR- your Sig, "I'm a white man in the U.S. who doesn't consider himself an American." I'm an American who doesn't consider himself a white man! How 'bout that, eh? I never called myself white, and I don't appreciate being judged by my genes like that.

I won't ask about the Gore Vidal quote. I've heard it before, and it's what failures use to excuse themselves. The left is nothing but excuses to be weak, play victim, and make poor choices.

[Gem]

The irrationality and general indirect ad hominem is just sad to see on a skeptic's board.

Each side just seems to avoid the issue, keeps discrediting the opposition, and generally plays stupid.

Maybe that's why stupid politicians are elected, because too many stupid, irrational people vote?

Gem

[Nyarlathotep]

Jar

When American has the moral high ground on you, it is a very, very bad sign.....

[JAR]

Originally posted by American
Hey JAR- your Sig, "I'm a white man in the U.S. who doesn't consider himself an American." I'm an American who doesn't consider himself a white man! How 'bout that, eh? I never called myself white, and I don't appreciate being judged by my genes like that.

I won't ask about the Gore Vidal quote. I've heard it before, and it's what failures use to excuse themselves. The left is nothing but excuses to be weak, play victim, and make poor choices.
Okay, I'll remove the "I'm not an American" part. I put that in response to the claim made by some forum-goers that the Native American Indians are more characteristically American than white Americans.

[Tony]

Originally posted by LFTKBS


I didn't know about some obscure, poorly-designed site, and I sincerely apologize, JAR, for not magically knowing what little abstruse backcorner of the web Tony was talking about.

How am I playing stupid here again?


It's more than the website, its a movement with powerful members.