'Guilty' by association?

[Tony]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3276911.stm ..full article


How are US citizens living in London coping with the current tide of anti-Americanism? As George Bush touches down in the UK for the start of a controversial visit, four expats speak about the jokes, ridicule and the hostility they face.

President Bush arrives on Tuesday
When George W Bush arrives in London on Tuesday, he will begin what is set to be the most controversial visit by a head of state in recent memory.

Demonstrators in their tens of thousands are expected to turn out to rail against his administration's foreign policy, its environmental record, and his presidency - numbers set to dwarf the dissent which greeted China's Jiang Zemin or the 1978 state visit by Romania's Nicolae Ceausescu.

While an opinion poll suggests that more Britons back the visit than oppose it, the foreign secretary, Jack Straw, has criticised the "fashionable anti-Americanism" he fears will blight the trip.




I think it's telling the amount of xenophobia experienced by americans around the world. Should I prepare to face xenophobia when I am in England next month?

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Tony

I think it's telling the amount of xenophobia experienced by americans around the world. Should I prepare to face xenophobia when I am in England next month?

Just don't let paranoia take over.

If you think the beer tastes funny don't worry, no one's trying to poison you, it's meant to taste like that.;)

Enjoy your trip.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Nikk


Just don't let paranoia take over.


Should I carry a weapon in case some guy gets in my face and starts talking *****?

[hgc]

Originally posted by Tony


Should I carry a weapon in case some guy gets in my face and starts talking *****? Yes. Preemptive assault on his insults of mass destruction.

[Tony]

Originally posted by hgc
Yes. Preemptive assault on his insults of mass destruction.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DrChinese]

Originally posted by Tony


Should I carry a weapon in case some guy gets in my face and starts talking *****?

Definitely. And pack a gun in your suitcase before you leave.


:D

[DrChinese]

Originally posted by Tony
I think it's telling the amount of xenophobia experienced by americans around the world. Should I prepare to face xenophobia when I am in England next month?

Actually, my wife just returned from her first visit to London last week. She did hear plenty of comments - mostly not favorable - about America. She said many focused on how Hollywood controls this and that. So it is not just a political thing.

At any rate, her skin is very thin. If yours is too, you may not be happy. On the other hand, I like to think Americans can take it with a laugh. I truly think Brits like Americans. I am sure you will meet plenty of very friendly folks who are a lot more like you than different.

[Tony]

Originally posted by DrChinese

At any rate, her skin is very thin. If yours is too, you may not be happy. On the other hand, I like to think Americans can take it with a laugh. I truly think Brits like Americans. I am sure you will meet plenty of very friendly folks who are a lot more like you than different.

I got a thick skin, and I can take it with a laugh. Here's how it will go.

Brit: laughingly "Americans are fat and dumb"

Me: laughingly "Yeah, and you're mom sucked this fat, dumb american's cock last night"


Then we both walk off into the sunset together to have a beer.



But im not talking about those kind of encounters, Im talking about the real d!ckheads. The people who would get in my face, spit, and just display a mood of hostility.

Should I worry about those kind of people?

[Tmy]

Are you going anywhere other than England? Watch out for the UK guys, they wont take as much s**t as the other Euros. THe other countries are pretty much filled with pansies that you can bully pretty easily.:p

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
Are you going anywhere other than England? Watch out for the UK guys, they wont take as much s**t as the other Euros. THe other countries are pretty much filled with pansies that you can bully pretty easily.:p

We're also going to Amsterdam and we might go to either Scotland or Belgium as well. I want to go to Scotland, my family ancestry is in Scotland and it would be interesting to see where my family came from.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by DrChinese


Actually, my wife just returned from her first visit to London last week. She did hear plenty of comments - mostly not favorable - about America. She said many focused on how Hollywood controls this and that. So it is not just a political thing.

At any rate, her skin is very thin. If yours is too, you may not be happy. On the other hand, I like to think Americans can take it with a laugh. I truly think Brits like Americans. I am sure you will meet plenty of very friendly folks who are a lot more like you than different.

Why do you think that they like Americans if most of their comments were negative? It sounds to me from your wifes account and from what I have seen elsewhere (i.e. on this forum) that they generally don't like Americans. If I went somewhere and most people talked badly of me, it would seem logical to conclude that most of them don't like me, its common sense.

[Tony]

Why is bigotry against Americans accepted in Europe?

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Tony
Why is bigotry against Americans accepted in Europe?

Because we're "only Americans" you see.

Simple isn't it?

[Cleopatra]

I have a story to tell you.

According to THAT poll of Eurobarometer --you know, the one that pointed Israel as the most dangerous country for Word's Peace-- Greece is the most anti-american country in Europe.

Today I was walking in Athens downtown. I was ready to cross a street that a protestation was talking place. A couple of elder Americans exit their hotel and they discovered -terrified- that they found themselves in a middle of a protestation.

The protesters open a way with respect for them to pass.

Europe is a civilized place, I am sure you will enjoy it very much, especially London. There is no place like England and London.English people are very civilized in their own unique way.They have NOTHING to do with Americans.They do not smile that easily ;) The only "weapon" you need if you visit England is politeness, Tony.

You have to find them sober of course....

*runs to avoid flying bricks*

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I have a story to tell you.

According to THAT poll of Eurobarometer --you know, the one that pointed Israel as the most dangerous country for Word's Peace-- Greece is the most anti-american country in Europe.

Today I was walking in Athens downtown. I was ready to cross a street that a protestation was talking place. A couple of elder Americans exit their hotel and they discovered -terrified- that they found themselves in a middle of a protestation.

The protesters open a way with respect for them to pass.

Europe is a civilized place, I am sure you will enjoy it very much, especially London. There is no place like England and London.English people are very civilized in their own unique way.They have NOTHING to do with Americans.They do not smile that easily ;) The only "weapon" you need if you visit England is politeness, Tony.

You have to find them sober of course....

*runs to avoid flying bricks*

Yes, but how did the protestors know that the elderly couple were a couple of Americans as opposed to natives of any other English speaking country?

[Cleopatra]

You can tell Americans from a mile away.

Ok Ok you made me say it :D

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Tony
Why is bigotry against Americans accepted in Europe? Tony, don't worry. Europeans are civilized unlike some others. So even if it will be difficult for you to part from your beloved guns for a few weeks, I would say that your prospect of surviving your encounter with Europeans is very, very, very good.

Hope you enjoy your stay.

[Cleopatra]

Maybe I should have said that Americans are sober :p

[DanishDynamite]

Cleo:You can tell Americans from a mile away.Stop stereotyping, Cleo. Just because you are right doesn't mean you aren't stereotyping. ;)

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Maybe I should have said that Americans are sober :p

Ha! It is obvious you have never visited Nevada.

Booze, Gambling and Prostitution, the three cornerstones of my great state. I think they ought to put it in the state seal or something.;)

But seriously. I do think there is a difference between a group of protestors letting an elderly couple pass unharmed and the question of whether there is general undercurrent of hostility and rudeness to Americans in Europe.

Personally, though there are many places in Europe (and the rest of the world) that I would like to see someday, I don't think I would want to go overseas at this time. I realize there may be individual exceptions but from what I have seen, I think that I would be greeted with reactions ranging from rude hostility to, at best, cold politness. It wouldn't make for a good vacation in any event.

[DanishDynamite]

Nyarlathotep:Personally, though there are many places in Europe (and the rest of the world) that I would like to see someday, I don't think I would want to go overseas at this time. I realize there may be individual exceptions but from what I have seen, I think that I would be greeted with reactions ranging from rude hostility to, at best, cold politness. It wouldn't make for a good vacation in any event. Nyarlathotep, you would be perfectly safe in Europe. Peopåle may disagree with the actions of the US government, but the majority can differentiate between the actions of the US government and average citizens. I suspect your change of running to some rabid anti-Americans is very, very low.

And I don't work for the EU Tourist Department (if such exists).;)

[Cleopatra]

Nyarlathotep

I am not suggesting that in Europe xenophobia doesn't exist but for the time being tourists are safe! Personally I have never seen or heard anybody to attack tourists in Europe. We like American tourists because they are polite and they behave themselves, also before EURO $$ mattered a lot.

But still even now only Americans can afford the hotels in the centre of Athens :)

I don't think I would want to go overseas at this time. I realize there may be individual exceptions but from what I have seen, I think that I would be greeted with reactions ranging from rude hostility to, at best, cold politness. It wouldn't make for a good vacation in any event.



I totally disagree with that!!! You know in Europe all these are old stories, I mean people and societies carry a lot of social experience in them.

Again an anecdote. The other morning I was passing by the church I pass every day and they had a liturgy. Again, a couple of Americans entered the church ( you could tell, they were clean and ....Americans) everybody tried to be helpful and find chairs for them. The same people that they were looking to accomodate the Americans in the church they might say very mean things about the American people but they will be talking about politics not about the people.

Danish Dynamite

You are right :)

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Nyarlathotep:Nyarlathotep, you would be perfectly safe in Europe. Peopåle may disagree with the actions of the US government, but the majority can differentiate between the actions of the US government and average citizens. I suspect your change of running to some rabid anti-Americans is very, very low.

And I don't work for the EU Tourist Department (if such exists).;)

I wouldn't feel unsafe, merely unwelcome. I don't think that I someone would try to harm me (at least the chacne would be no greater than going on a trip over here) I do think that people would be rude to me and that would make any trip over there pretty much a downer.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Tony


We're also going to Amsterdam and we might go to either Scotland or Belgium as well. I want to go to Scotland, my family ancestry is in Scotland and it would be interesting to see where my family came from.

It's a pity you've chosen to come in December, it really isn't the time of year to visit anywhere in northern europe. Still you must have your reasons.

If you visit Scotland, complain about the English ( sassenachs ) they like that. Oh and don't call kilts "frocks" they get quite enough of that from people like me.

If you visit Belgium ( I lived there for 12 years ) try and get hold of this book..."A tall man in a low land" by Harry Pearson (ISBN 0 349 011206 1). It's funny and perceptive. Visit Antwerp in preference to Brussels if you can't do both cities. And think very carefully before you hire a car. I knew sane sensible american women in Belgium who would never drive as they were too scared to do so.

I don't think you will have any problems in the UK, people aren't looking for americans to beat up you know. A sense of humour is all you need really. If the worse comes to the worst remember that unless you are buying crack from a black man you are vanishingly unlikely to encounter anyone with a gun.;)

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
Personally, though there are many places in Europe (and the rest of the world) that I would like to see someday, I don't think I would want to go overseas at this time. I realize there may be individual exceptions but from what I have seen, I think that I would be greeted with reactions ranging from rude hostility to, at best, cold politness. It wouldn't make for a good vacation in any event.


This is what I call gross misinformation. Of course, it's not the fault of American people. But it's really amazing. I don't think that there is any other country in the world whose citizens are so afraid to travel abroad. Honestly, my main feeling is surprise.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by El Greco

Honestly, my main feeling is surprise.


Yes indeed!! Especially in Greece!! Hey! We might be crazy but our hospitality is proverbial!!!

[Zep]

I think it's telling the amount of xenophobia experienced by americans around the world.(Haven't read Tony's posts for a while, but this one looks interesting)

You think it's telling of what?

BTW, "Xenophobia" is simply fear of foreigners. It is common in many countries, towns, and other close-knit groups. It is a prerequisite for a cult.

However, dislike and protest of another person's, party's or country's political stance is usually not xenophobia. It's not the people per se that are being disliked, it's their policies.

PS. Pack a gun. A BIG gun. England is a free country too, and if you can stick a gun in the face of a guy who is hassling you in America then you can do it in England. No sweat.
:i:

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I have a story to tell you.

According to THAT poll of Eurobarometer --you know, the one that pointed Israel as the most dangerous country for Word's Peace-- Greece is the most anti-american country in Europe.



Right, and Germany was next to Italy the least anti american, so if you feel worried, Tony, visit one of the old axis powers. If you prefer good food, go to Italy, if you seek excitement, rent a car and travel through Germany, stay on the autobahn and just drive like you do in the US. No need to pack a gun because you'll never know what hit you anyway
:D

Zee

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Nyarlathotep

I am not suggesting that in Europe xenophobia doesn't exist but for the time being tourists are safe! Personally I have never seen or heard anybody to attack tourists in Europe. We like American tourists because they are polite and they behave themselves, also before EURO $$ mattered a lot.

But still even now only Americans can afford the hotels in the centre of Athens :)




I totally disagree with that!!! You know in Europe all these are old stories, I mean people and societies carry a lot of social experience in them.

Again an anecdote. The other morning I was passing by the church I pass every day and they had a liturgy. Again, a couple of Americans entered the church ( you could tell, they were clean and ....Americans) everybody tried to be helpful and find chairs for them. The same people that they were looking to accomodate the Americans in the church they might say very mean things about the American people but they will be talking about politics not about the people.

Danish Dynamite

You are right :)

Perhaps. It's all theoretical from wher I sit anyway since, barring the death of a rich relative that I don't know I have, I don't forsee myself visiting Europe in the near future even under the best of conditions.

[DanishDynamite]

Nyarlathotep:I wouldn't feel unsafe, merely unwelcome.I doubt it. Europe is invaded by tourists from every corner of the world.

You might hit upon a few sarcastic remarks, but I really doubt that you have much chance of meeting real unpleasantness.
I don't think that I someone would try to harm me (at least the chacne would be no greater than going on a trip over here) I do think that people would be rude to me and that would make any trip over there pretty much a downer. I seriously doubt it.

One of my colleagues is a rabid American-lover. Almost anything the US does is beyond approach. Everyone else is more or less middle of the road. No one (that I know of) hates Americans.

Anecdotal, certainly. Still, I doubt you would generaly feel unwelcome.

[DanishDynamite]

Nyarlathotep:Perhaps. It's all theoretical from wher I sit anyway since, barring the death of a rich relative that I don't know I have, I don't forsee myself visiting Europe in the near future even under the best of conditions. We'll be praying for the early demise of a loving uncle. :)

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Nyarlathotep:We'll be praying for the early demise of a loving uncle. :)

Me too.

[BTox]

Originally posted by Tony


But im not talking about those kind of encounters, Im talking about the real d!ckheads. The people who would get in my face, spit, and just display a mood of hostility.

Should I worry about those kind of people?

Don't worry about it. Here's a suggestion: when some bloke starts yammering about the U.S. policies/President/etc., give them some advice on their monarchy. Tell them you think it's an absurd anachronism that should be immediately disbanded, 99.999% of the wealth controlled by the royal family should be confiscated and given back to the people of the UK. Then the "royals" should be sent packing to parts unknown and forced to earn a living. Usually shuts them up!

[Zep]

Originally posted by BTox
Don't worry about it. Here's a suggestion: when some bloke starts yammering about the U.S. policies/President/etc., give them some advice on their monarchy. Tell them you think it's an absurd anachronism that should be immediately disbanded, 99.999% of the wealth controlled by the royal family should be confiscated and given back to the people of the UK. Then the "royals" should be sent packing to parts unknown and forced to earn a living. Usually shuts them up! And I think even I would pay good money to see the stoush that developed!

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


Yes, but how did the protestors know that the elderly couple were a couple of Americans as opposed to natives of any other English speaking country?

LOL

Probably as easily as you can spot Japanese tourists in the US. :D Golf shirt, non-tailored shorts and a stupid, bewildered expression would be my guess, but then being an American myself, I couldn't say. :p

[shuize]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal


LOL

Probably as easily as you can spot Japanese tourists in the US. :D Golf shirt, non-tailored shorts and a stupid, bewildered expression would be my guess, but then being an American myself, I couldn't say. :p

Or, if you want to find Japanese tourists in the U.S., just visit Hawaii. They thinnk they own the place.

Honestly, I can't begin to tell you how many Japanese people I spoken with who will answer "no" when asked if they've ever visited a foreign country and then tell me about their vacation to Hawaii in the same sentence.

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite

And I don't work for the EU Tourist Department (if such exists).;)

Well it is not the EU, but maybe this is what you are looking for:

Visit Denmark (http://www.visitdenmark.com/)

OK they got me convinced...how much to spend a week?

:)

[Mike B.]

Hey, maybe they don't hate Americans so much in the UK:

Guardian Poll (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1087545,00.html)

Of course, maybe in Greece it would be the opposite...
:(

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by El Greco



This is what I call gross misinformation. Of course, it's not the fault of American people. But it's really amazing. I don't think that there is any other country in the world whose citizens are so afraid to travel abroad. Honestly, my main feeling is surprise.

It isn't a matter of traveling abroad that many of us (not me, I would in a second, if I could) fear, but the fact that many Europeans do look down on us, and it is well known that we are not well liked because of our country. I have seen it many times not only on this board, but on many newsgroups and chatrooms. The anti-american senitiment is prevalent and what is really sad is that most of the anti-american senitiment is utter and complete boloney.

We have been raised with the sentiment of the "ugly American". We are fat, we are rude, we are inconsiderate, we are stupid, we are gun toting violentophiles, we are [fill in your own nasty comment]. We hear it all the time, and you wonder why we don't want to visit Europe? How about if I constantly said that you were stupid, ugly, destroying the world, and deserved to die, would you want to be my house guest? Even if I put on a fake smile and tried very hard to be polite?

Of course, I choose to look beyond the general nastiness, and also tend to ingore idiots who have nasty things to say about Americans in general.

BTW, unlike Nyarlathotep, who is the stubbornest of the elder gods, I really don't think people hate Americans (We have had this argument a lot). I think that that position gets blown out of proportion and the very thing that bothers Nyarlathotep, the generalizations of how awful we Americans are, is exactly what happens when Americans claim, "they all hate us!". They don't, and I can say that with the exception of one person from Europe who I have met, who was very unpleasant for reasons other than hating the US, most of the people I have met or talked to have been wonderful once we get past the generalized stupidity, of course. No, we all don't carry or even own guns.

I would love to visit Europe. There is so much I want to see and do.

[Ladewig]

Are you going anywhere other than England? Watch out for the UK guys, they wont take as much s**t as the other Euros. THe other countries are pretty much filled with pansies that you can bully pretty easily.

Oh, I wouldn't say that. Yes, the UK leads the world in soccer hooliganism, but if you pop over to the Netherlands and ask a passing Dutchman, "is this place part of Germany," the response you get will not be pansy-like. Especially if you follow up with, "I was confused because your language sounds so much like German that it surely is an offshoot of that language."

[Ladewig]

All this talk of anti-American sentiment - pfui. U.S. citizens can go anywhere in the world and feel welcome.as long as they tell everyone that they are Canadians.

[DavidJames]

Purely anecdotal, but I know many people who have visited Europe and the Middle East. Some on vacation and others on work assignments. Their experience has been overwhelmingly positive.

If you're basing your opinions on Internet forums and the random news blurb, go seek out other sources. Talk to real people and don't base your beliefs on anonymous Internet sources, including me :D

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by Ladewig


Oh, I wouldn't say that. Yes, the UK leads the world in soccer hooliganism, but if you pop over to the Netherlands and ask a passing Dutchman, "is this place part of Germany," the response you get will not be pansy-like. Especially if you follow up with, "I was confused because your language sounds so much like German that it surely is an offshoot of that language."

Dutch is not a language but a vocal disorder :D

Zee

[Craig]

Originally posted by BTox
Tell them you think it's an absurd anachronism that should be immediately disbanded, 99.999% of the wealth controlled by the royal family should be confiscated and given back to the people of the UK. Then the "royals" should be sent packing to parts unknown and forced to earn a living.

Sounds good to me!

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Craig


Sounds good to me!

Go get yourself "The Queen and I", by Sue Townsend! You´ll love that novel.


@Chanileslie, Nyarlathotep (and others):
Most "anti-Americans" or "America-haters" really dislike the American government, specifically the Bush administration, because of its actions. Since this administration has, so far, confirmed most, if not all, bad stereotypes about the "ugly American", and since the average European sees very little, if any, dissent about the actions of this administration from within America, he/she must come the conclusion that Americans are indeed all (or almost all) like Bush and his cronies. From the point of view of most Europeans (those who don´t have contact to more moderate Americans like most of those in this forum) you have reached the point where the "benefit of doubt" no longer applies.
Add to this the (perceived) American fixation on both Patriotism and religion. Most European countries, especially those who were labelled "Old Europe", are relatively secular. Europe has had very bad experiences with too much religious influence, and the prospect of the most powerful country of the world being ruled by a president who is almost a religious fanatic is downright scaring to us.
The same goes with American patriotism. By European standards, the level of patriotism prevalent in the USA would be called "rabid nationalism" - the same thing that brought Europe two World Wars and untold death, destruction and suffering. Can´t you understand that we are not comfortable with that?

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Chaos


Go get yourself "The Queen and I", by Sue Townsend! You´ll love that novel.


@Chanileslie, Nyarlathotep (and others):
Most "anti-Americans" or "America-haters" really dislike the American government, specifically the Bush administration, because of its actions. Since this administration has, so far, confirmed most, if not all, bad stereotypes about the "ugly American", and since the average European sees very little, if any, dissent about the actions of this administration from within America, he/she must come the conclusion that Americans are indeed all (or almost all) like Bush and his cronies. From the point of view of most Europeans (those who don´t have contact to more moderate Americans like most of those in this forum) you have reached the point where the "benefit of doubt" no longer applies.
Add to this the (perceived) American fixation on both Patriotism and religion. Most European countries, especially those who were labelled "Old Europe", are relatively secular. Europe has had very bad experiences with too much religious influence, and the prospect of the most powerful country of the world being ruled by a president who is almost a religious fanatic is downright scaring to us.
The same goes with American patriotism. By European standards, the level of patriotism prevalent in the USA would be called "rabid nationalism" - the same thing that brought Europe two World Wars and untold death, destruction and suffering. Can´t you understand that we are not comfortable with that?

I undeerstand it quite well. However it only adresses WHY there is so much anti-americanism. My point is that I would feel uncomfortable in a part of the world where I was clearly not wanted, the reasons why they don't want me there are at best a secondary concern, especially if they are, as your post makes it sound, things I can do nothing about.

I'll put it on a personal level. If I were to invite you over to my house for dinner, but you knew that most of my family hated you, would you feel comfortable going? Would knowing the reasons that they hate you, even if you know those reasons to be based on a misunderstanding, be all that important to you or make you less uncomfortable? If it were me the answers would be 'no' to both questions. Given that, do you understand why I would not be comfortable visiting Europe

[Tony]

Originally posted by Chaos

Most "anti-Americans" or "America-haters" really dislike the American government, specifically the Bush administration, because of its actions. Since this administration has, so far, confirmed most, if not all, bad stereotypes about the "ugly American", and since the average European sees very little, if any, dissent about the actions of this administration from within America, he/she must come the conclusion that Americans are indeed all (or almost all) like Bush and his cronies. From the point of view of most Europeans (those who don´t have contact to more moderate Americans like most of those in this forum) you have reached the point where the "benefit of doubt" no longer applies.
Add to this the (perceived) American fixation on both Patriotism and religion. Most European countries, especially those who were labelled "Old Europe", are relatively secular. Europe has had very bad experiences with too much religious influence, and the prospect of the most powerful country of the world being ruled by a president who is almost a religious fanatic is downright scaring to us.
The same goes with American patriotism. By European standards, the level of patriotism prevalent in the USA would be called "rabid nationalism" - the same thing that brought Europe two World Wars and untold death, destruction and suffering. Can´t you understand that we are not comfortable with that?


So basically, Europeans are bigots because we don't think like them.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Chaos
@Chanileslie, Nyarlathotep (and others):

Most "anti-Americans" or "America-haters" really dislike the American government, specifically the Bush administration, because of its actions. Since this administration has, so far, confirmed most, if not all, bad stereotypes about the "ugly American", and since the average European sees very little, if any, dissent about the actions of this administration from within America, he/she must come the conclusion that Americans are indeed all (or almost all) like Bush and his cronies. From the point of view of most Europeans (those who don´t have contact to more moderate Americans like most of those in this forum) you have reached the point where the "benefit of doubt" no longer applies.
Add to this the (perceived) American fixation on both Patriotism and religion. Most European countries, especially those who were labelled "Old Europe", are relatively secular. Europe has had very bad experiences with too much religious influence, and the prospect of the most powerful country of the world being ruled by a president who is almost a religious fanatic is downright scaring to us.
The same goes with American patriotism. By European standards, the level of patriotism prevalent in the USA would be called "rabid nationalism" - the same thing that brought Europe two World Wars and untold death, destruction and suffering. Can´t you understand that we are not comfortable with that?

I can dig it.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Tony



So basically, Europeans are bigots because we don't think like them.

Are you saying that Americans don't like Europeans? Or are you simply speaking for yourself?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Tony



So basically, Europeans are bigots because we don't think like them.


I think that you are negative. Apart from what Chaos said Europeans are skeptical towards the Americans not because they don't think like us but because they seem that they don't think at all.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


I undeerstand it quite well. However it only adresses WHY there is so much anti-americanism. My point is that I would feel uncomfortable in a part of the world where I was clearly not wanted, the reasons why they don't want me there are at best a secondary concern, especially if they are, as your post makes it sound, things I can do nothing about.

I'll put it on a personal level. If I were to invite you over to my house for dinner, but you knew that most of my family hated you, would you feel comfortable going? Would knowing the reasons that they hate you, even if you know those reasons to be based on a misunderstanding, be all that important to you or make you less uncomfortable? If it were me the answers would be 'no' to both questions. Given that, do you understand why I would not be comfortable visiting Europe

Touché. ;)

However, I mainly wanted to make clear we are not just a bunch of xenophobics, or terrorist-lovers, or whatever some people in this forum (need I name any specific poster?) and some American media might call us.
For the same reasons, I am not 100% comfortable with travelling to the US for TAM2. I´ll do it, but still...


Edited for omission. Thanks, Nyarlathotep...

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Chaos


Touché. ;)

However, I mainly wanted to make clear we are just a bunch of xenophobics, or terrorist-lovers, or whatever some people in this forum (need I name any specific poster?) and some American media might call us.
For the same reasons, I am not 100% comfortable with travelling to the US for TAM2. I´ll do it, but still...

I think you may want to add the word not between 'are' and 'just' in your post, otherwise it screws up your point.;)

I understand what you mean about being uncomfortable traveeling over here, though. It's unfortunate, but I understand. I'd be even more uncomfortable if I were French, though. I think they get really unfairly villified over here.

[richardm]

I don't know if anyone has pointed this out already, but it is worth mentioning, I think. The reason you get the impression that Europeans don't like Americans is because of a vocal minority. You hear their voices all the time, because people who say "Americans seem okay to me" don't make very good copy.

[Tony]

Originally posted by KelvinG


Are you saying that Americans don't like Europeans? Or are you simply speaking for yourself?


Im saying that you dont find wide spread anti-europeanism.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Tony
Im saying that you dont find wide spread anti-europeanism.

Freedom Fries, anyone?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

I think that you are negative. Apart from what Chaos said Europeans are skeptical towards the Americans not because they don't think like us but because they seem that they don't think at all.


So europeans are arrogant? Talk about hubris. You have to be damn arrogant to think that because someone doesnt think like you, they dont think at all.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Tony



Im saying that you dont find wide spread anti-europeanism.

I wouldn't necessarily say that is true either, or else the following words would have never entered our lexicon

"Freedom Fries"
"Freedom Toast"
"Old Europe"


As much as I dislike the rampant anti-Americanism in Europe, we aren't entirely innocent of such behavior ourselves. The sad fact is that the entire world is full of bigots. Such behavior seems to be the norm in our species, alas.

[Tony]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Freedom Fries, anyone?


That is a non-issue.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Tony



That is a non-issue.

Why?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Tony
That is a non-issue.

No, it most certainly is not. In fact, it is spot on.

You can't just ignore the points that show you wrong, or simply rule them as "non-issues".

[Tony]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


I wouldn't necessarily say that is true either, or else the following words would have never entered our lexicon

"Freedom Fries"
"Freedom Toast"
"Old Europe"


As much as I dislike the rampant anti-Americanism in Europe, we aren't entirely innocent of such behavior ourselves. The sad fact is that the entire world is full of bigots. Such behavior seems to be the norm in our species, alas.


But outside the media and certain governmental figures, 99.9999% of americans didnt buy into that BS.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
I wouldn't necessarily say that is true either, or else the following words would have never entered our lexicon

"Freedom Fries"
"Freedom Toast"
"Old Europe"

I'm way ahead of you. ;)

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
As much as I dislike the rampant anti-Americanism in Europe, we aren't entirely innocent of such behavior ourselves. The sad fact is that the entire world is full of bigots. Such behavior seems to be the norm in our species, alas.

I don't see it as "anti-Americanism" as much as "anti-Bushism".

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Chanileslie
It isn't a matter of traveling abroad that many of us (not me, I would in a second, if I could) fear, but the fact that many Europeans do look down on us, and it is well known that we are not well liked because of our country. I have seen it many times not only on this board, but on many newsgroups and chatrooms. The anti-american senitiment is prevalent and what is really sad is that most of the anti-american senitiment is utter and complete boloney.

Many people in Greece have the exact same feelings about British policy that they have about US policy. Nothing to do with the people though. British know it, and they are quite relaxed and easy-going when they visit Greece.

This fear that Americans have developed is really obvious when they first come hear. They look to me like kittens, you call them in order to stroke them and they look back at you suspiciously, even ready to counterattack :) However, there are Americans living here and they have understood that their initial fears were unfounded. So do tourists, if they manage to spend a little time with local people, that is.

Originally posted by Chanileslie
We have been raised with the sentiment of the "ugly American". We are fat, we are rude, we are inconsiderate, we are stupid, we are gun toting violentophiles, we are [fill in your own nasty comment]. We hear it all the time, and you wonder why we don't want to visit Europe? How about if I constantly said that you were stupid, ugly, destroying the world, and deserved to die, would you want to be my house guest? Even if I put on a fake smile and tried very hard to be polite?

This is why I said that it is not the fault of American people. The truth is that many Greek people are Americanized to an extreme, even vexing degree :) It is my opinion that US media present the situation like this, in order to enhance your "patriotic" feelings and increase interamerican cohesion - whether they are doing it deliberately or not.

[Tony]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


No, it most certainly is not. In fact, it is spot on.

You can't just ignore the points that show you wrong, or simply rule them as "non-issues".

It is a non-issue because 1) it wasnt wide spread and 2) doesnt even exist anymore. "Freedom fries" and european anti-americanism dont even compare.

[Tony]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

I don't see it as "anti-Americanism" as much as "anti-Bushism".

Which is even more intellectually retarded because Bush hasn’t done anything that Clinton didn’t do. The Europeans just dislike Bush because he doesn’t kiss their ass and he doesn’t play lip services to their stupid ideas, i.e. The ICC, Kyoto.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Tony



But outside the media and certain governmental figures, 99.9999% of americans didnt buy into that BS.

Well, my admittedly unscientific method of listening while friends and co-workers talk convinces me that your numbers are a bit off. Not to mention the mass wine dumpings, nasty political cartoons and other nonsense that was orchestrated by neither the media nor the government. I wouldn't go so far as to say that most Americans DID buy into it, but a sizable minority did. Enough that even now that it has died down, if I were European, especially if I were French, I would have to think very hard about wanting to travel over here.

[Tony]

Originally posted by El Greco


The truth is that many Greek people are Americanized to an extreme, even vexing degree :)

Just curious, but what does "Americanized to the extreme" mean?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Tony
It is a non-issue because 1) it wasnt wide spread and 2) doesnt even exist anymore. "Freedom fries" and european anti-americanism dont even compare.

If you are going to ignore reality, then please go ahead. But you should go out more. Read some newspapers that do not come from the US. Watch some other news than Fox. Listen to other radio than Rush (when he gets out of rehab, of course).

Originally posted by Tony
Which is even more intellectually retarded because Bush hasn’t done anything that Clinton didn’t do. The Europeans just dislike Bush because he doesn’t kiss their ass and he doesn’t play lip services to their stupid ideas, i.e. The ICC, Kyoto.

No, it has nothing to do with Clinton. I did not mention Clinton, I am not talking about Clinton. I specifically made the distinction between Americans and Bush.

Look at the posters the protesters wave. What do they depict? Bush.

Are Americans who visit Europe persecuted? Spat on? Kicked, run out of the country? Hardly.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Tony



So europeans are arrogant? Talk about hubris. You have to be damn arrogant to think that because someone doesnt think like you, they dont think at all.

Now. We believe that Americans tend to oversimplify things. They want things to happen really fast. I remember my husband who was getting on my nerves because he couldn't stand to go to Santorini on boat because it was 8 hours away and he was whining what we would do on a boat for 8 hours and he was taking a plane in order to be there is 15 min!!!!! For Christ Sake.This is a 100% American habit.

Also, American people don't show respect to older cultures than theirs. It's a fact that USA is a new country. There are cultures, Tony that existed for thousands of years.

In the area of today's Iraq for example societies exist for 5000 years. It doesn't matter if they don't have advanced technology, they have accumulated social experience instead.

Do you know what does this mean? It means that their society is able to soften the extreme tendances in everyday life. For example in Iraq and in all the old countries there is no such a things as a serial killer. Kids, do not take guns to kill their fellow students at school and this is not because they don't have guns. It's because their society is older and more experienced to deal with everyday's difficulties. It's different as well, but TIME is a great weapon once you have it.

Some times the American people show that they don't respect old countries and this is what I call arrogance and hubris.

I am glad to hear that you didn't buy French Fries. This is how it is with Anti-americanism in Europe too; it's a firework of the Media mostly.

[Tony]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

But you should go out more. Read some newspapers that do not come from the US. Watch some other news than Fox. Listen to other radio than Rush (when he gets out of rehab, of course).


Um, I already do bigot. Please tell me how I am ignoring reality. You bring up freedom fries, I tell you that's non-issue (which is true), and you say I'm "ignoring reality".



No, it has nothing to do with Clinton. I did not mention Clinton, I am not talking about Clinton. I specifically made the distinction between Americans and Bush.

Look at the posters the protesters wave. What do they depict? Bush.

Which shows a lack of intellectual sophistication. Clinton didn’t do anything Bush hasn’t done. Were there mass protests in Europe when Clinton was in office?

[rikzilla]

Tony,

I married my lovely wife in St. George's Chapel inside the walls of Windsor Castle in July of 1986. Her father was a police captain permanently stationed at the castle. He considered the pinnacle of his career to have been Reagan's state visit. My father-in-law was the British police liason with President Reagan's secret service advance team. He was a competent, funny, and delightfully conservative human. (not to be confused with stodgy, nasty, and boring religious-type conservatives)

You will be pleased Tony, to find many more British who think like him, than the noisy minority we see paraded on the news.

But just like Britain in general, my British family is fragmented along political lines. My wife's sister and her husband are both very liberal, and sad to say, anti-American. They even named their newest child "Samir" in order to promote their pro-Arab politics. They are still my family, even though now they are not my friends.

Above all Tony, the English...(well bred ones that is) are exceedingly polite. I have been stung recently by the icy good manners of my sister-in-law. If you are shown any rudeness during your stay there, I suggest that you remain as coldly polite as the circumstances allow. Any display of "American Bad Manners" will lose you respect quickly, and merely serve to bolster the argument of those who hate you for being what you are.

Practise your biting sarcasm man, then wield it like a sword! ;)
...and look for those Brits who'll buy you a pint just for being a "yank"...they're out there. (Oh, BTW...no sense trying to tell 'em you're not a "yank") ...I told them I was from the south, and more accurately a "reb"....I got blank stares...so I just held up my pint and loudly said: "The Queen!" ..works every time! :D

-z

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Cleopatra



I think that you are negative. Apart from what Chaos said Europeans are skeptical towards the Americans not because they don't think like us but because they seem that they don't think at all.

Ah, here is exactly why so many Americans don't want to travel abroad. These stupid and absurd generalizations which are just plain bunk!

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Freedom Fries, anyone?

Outside of the Whitehouse cafeteria, I don't think anyone used the term Freedom Fries. It did not change on any of the menues that I have noted, nor do I know anyone who used that absurdity.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Ladewig
All this talk of anti-American sentiment - pfui. U.S. citizens can go anywhere in the world and feel welcome.as long as they tell everyone that they are Canadians.

That reminds me of when I was a kid, and we were in open conflict with Iran, people from Iran were claiming to be from Iraq, but since we have come into conflict with Iraq, people from Iraq now claim to be from Iran (Okay, not all, but I have known a few). :-)

[Tony]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Also, American people don't show respect to older cultures than theirs. It's a fact that USA is a new country. There are cultures, Tony that existed for thousands of years.


The USA didn’t materialize out of thin air, it is a spawn of Europe. The European culture and experience is engrained in American culture.

In the area of today's Iraq for example societies exist for 5000 years. It doesn't matter if they don't have advanced technology, they have accumulated social experience instead.

That must be why they are over-run with tyranny, dictatorships and mainstream religious fanaticism. I cant wait until America has accumulated the "social experience" that enable us to cherish such institutions, it sure beats freedom, prosperity and thinking for yourself.

Do you know what does this mean? It means that their society is able to soften the extreme tendances in everyday life.

This isnt supported by evidence. The middle east is the most extreme region of the world.

For example in Iraq and in all the old countries there is no such a things as a serial killer.

Except of course for people like Saddam Hussein and the other Islamic thugocracies. In the middle east, the serial killers rule.

Kids, do not take guns to kill their fellow students at school and this is not because they don't have guns. It's because their society is older and more experienced to deal with everyday's difficulties.

Evidence?

Some times the American people show that they don't respect old countries and this is what I call arrogance and hubris.

Respect is earned, not blindly given.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Chaos


Go get yourself "The Queen and I", by Sue Townsend! You´ll love that novel.


@Chanileslie, Nyarlathotep (and others):
Most "anti-Americans" or "America-haters" really dislike the American government, specifically the Bush administration, because of its actions. Since this administration has, so far, confirmed most, if not all, bad stereotypes about the "ugly American", and since the average European sees very little, if any, dissent about the actions of this administration from within America, he/she must come the conclusion that Americans are indeed all (or almost all) like Bush and his cronies. From the point of view of most Europeans (those who don´t have contact to more moderate Americans like most of those in this forum) you have reached the point where the "benefit of doubt" no longer applies.
Add to this the (perceived) American fixation on both Patriotism and religion. Most European countries, especially those who were labelled "Old Europe", are relatively secular. Europe has had very bad experiences with too much religious influence, and the prospect of the most powerful country of the world being ruled by a president who is almost a religious fanatic is downright scaring to us.
The same goes with American patriotism. By European standards, the level of patriotism prevalent in the USA would be called "rabid nationalism" - the same thing that brought Europe two World Wars and untold death, destruction and suffering. Can´t you understand that we are not comfortable with that?

Actually, I agree with you for the most part. My point was simply although I don't agree with it, I understand why so many American's think the world at large hates us.

And actually, the patriotism thing, I have seen it from most parts of the world, but when coming from Americans it is "bad and evil way of thinking." I think there is a large double standard here, and I think it is being negatively applied to the US. Yes, I am an American, and yes, I love my country, and yes, I think we are a great country, but I do not believe that we are in anyway perfect, and there are a lot of room for improvement, but I see that everywhere in every country.

Yes, our current administration is headed by bigotted idiot who allows his views to be swayed by the religious right, but sadly, in this country the religious right are very vocal and tend to vote more prolifically than any other group (other than the elderly), so unfortunately, many candidates will cater that that minority. And who isn't hesistant to use the Big Stick to make everyone else 'agree' with him.

As I said, we are not perfect, but then again, who is.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Tony


Just curious, but what does "Americanized to the extreme" mean?

It means that they go to an American college with American teachers, surf all day long in American sites, listen almost exclusively to American music, watch almost exclusively American blockbuster movies, eat McDonalds and drink Coke to the same extent that an American child does.

On the other side, they probably drive a European car :)

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by El Greco


Many people in Greece have the exact same feelings about British policy that they have about US policy. Nothing to do with the people though. British know it, and they are quite relaxed and easy-going when they visit Greece.

This fear that Americans have developed is really obvious when they first come hear. They look to me like kittens, you call them in order to stroke them and they look back at you suspiciously, even ready to counterattack :) However, there are Americans living here and they have understood that their initial fears were unfounded. So do tourists, if they manage to spend a little time with local people, that is.



This is why I said that it is not the fault of American people. The truth is that many Greek people are Americanized to an extreme, even vexing degree :) It is my opinion that US media present the situation like this, in order to enhance your "patriotic" feelings and increase interamerican cohesion - whether they are doing it deliberately or not.

I want to make it clear that I don't find that the world hates us, but I can understand why many Americans do feel that way, and I was giving the reasons we do feel that way. I am sure Greece is a lovely place, and I quite look forward to some day visiting. I do not share the opinion that the world hates us.

As for the media, no, look at Cleopatra's post about Americans not thinking. This is not an uncommon idea that I have seen many times from people who should know better. Cleopatra, as an example, has 'spoken' with many American's on this board, and I think has a pretty good relationship with several at least as far as this board is concerned, but she doesn't hesistate to say something so nasty as "American's don't think." Not to pick on Cleopatra, but she gave a nice little example of my point in this very thread.

[Tony]

Originally posted by El Greco


It means that they go to an American college with American teachers, surf all day long in American sites, listen almost exclusively to American music, watch almost exclusively American blockbuster movies, eat McDonalds and drink Coke to the same extent that an American child does.



Dont hate us because we come up with all the cool $hit. :)

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Tony


The USA didn’t materialize out of thin air, it is a spawn of Europe. The European culture and experience is engrained in American culture.

It is but USA leaded this culture to a different path and they did well because their society and therefore their needs is organized differently. I like the way that the American culture has taken. I am not an expert on American Culture but I am not an ignorant either. For example, I have mentioned many times in this forum that in the field of Classical Letters that I happen to know very well, Americans beat Europe. Period. Ok. Maybe spending your evening in Cambridge talking about Plato has an atmosphere but after the third whiskey you can create an atmosphere everywhere.

That must be why they are over-run with tyranny, dictatorships and mainstream religious fanaticism. I cant wait until America has accumulated the "social experience" that enable us to cherish such institutions, it sure beats freedom, prosperity and thinking for yourself.

I chose my words carefully. I talked about the benefits of accumulated social experience to the everyday life. USA is not so innocent about those tyrannies you know ;)

I'd suggest that you divert your interest from the Politics for a while and focus on society.
Focus on the tiny details of every day life in order to see the difference.

There is a simple example. We ( in Middle East) eat slowly and since you are young and the matter interests you, the Art of Love making was discovered in those retarded middle Eastern tyrannies you despise so much :) Kama Sutra could never have been an.... American book :)

Just two easy but important examples from everyday life.Food and Sex. Do you know anything else that matters more than those two?

This isnt supported by evidence. The middle east is the most extreme region of the world.

No it's not more extreme than other parts of the world but yet again I am asking you to focus on everyday life.

Except of course for people like Saddam Hussein and the other Islamic thugocracies. In the middle east, the serial killers rule.

Those serial killers you mention are products of the USA and Western European Policy though.

Evidence?

:rr:

Respect is earned, not blindly given.


They have earned it Tony. They have invented everything that really matters in life and they have survived for thousands of years. They have already earned Humanity's respect, if you tried , out of curiosity to see behind the CNN News you'd discovered a world that deserves to be respected.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Chanileslie


I want to make it clear that I don't find that the world hates us, but I can understand why many Americans do feel that way, and I was giving the reasons we do feel that way. I am sure Greece is a lovely place, and I quite look forward to some day visiting. I do not share the opinion that the world hates us.

As for the media, no, look at Cleopatra's post about Americans not thinking. This is not an uncommon idea that I have seen many times from people who should know better. Cleopatra, as an example, has 'spoken' with many American's on this board, and I think has a pretty good relationship with several at least as far as this board is concerned, but she doesn't hesistate to say something so nasty as "American's don't think." Not to pick on Cleopatra, but she gave a nice little example of my point in this very thread.

I can't speak for Cleopatra, but I think she has proven that she doesn't feel that way about Americans. She's been chatting you people all day long. How could she do it if she had the idea "you don't think ?" I'm sure that this was mentioned in the context of "Europhobia".

Also, has any of you stayed in Europe for some time ? Why did you walk away from DavidJames' post ?

Originally posted by DavidJames
Purely anecdotal, but I know many people who have visited Europe and the Middle East. Some on vacation and others on work assignments. Their experience has been overwhelmingly positive.

If you're basing your opinions on Internet forums and the random news blurb, go seek out other sources. Talk to real people and don't base your beliefs on anonymous Internet sources, including me

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Now. We believe that Americans tend to oversimplify things. They want things to happen really fast. I remember my husband who was getting on my nerves because he couldn't stand to go to Santorini on boat because it was 8 hours away and he was whining what we would do on a boat for 8 hours and he was taking a plane in order to be there is 15 min!!!!! For Christ Sake.This is a 100% American habit.

Also, American people don't show respect to older cultures than theirs. It's a fact that USA is a new country. There are cultures, Tony that existed for thousands of years.

In the area of today's Iraq for example societies exist for 5000 years. It doesn't matter if they don't have advanced technology, they have accumulated social experience instead.

Do you know what does this mean? It means that their society is able to soften the extreme tendances in everyday life. For example in Iraq and in all the old countries there is no such a things as a serial killer. Kids, do not take guns to kill their fellow students at school and this is not because they don't have guns. It's because their society is older and more experienced to deal with everyday's difficulties. It's different as well, but TIME is a great weapon once you have it.

Some times the American people show that they don't respect old countries and this is what I call arrogance and hubris.

I am glad to hear that you didn't buy French Fries. This is how it is with Anti-americanism in Europe too; it's a firework of the Media mostly.

Yes, we Americans are the only ones who ever get impatient. In fact, the word impatient didn't exist prior to the advent of the United States. In fact, I bet the Greek did not even have a word for impatient until the last 200 or so years. [see dripping sarcasm here]. You blame the actions of one person on millions of people.

Don't understand culture? Don't understand ancient cultures? Heck, most people don't understand that, but respect is something that is earned, and if one doesn't learn from history, one is doomed to repeat it, and Americans are not the only ones who suffer from this ailment.

Don't show respect for older cultures? Well, I don't know about you, but I just went and pissed on some ancient ruins myself. [sarcasm]

Old cultures, pfeh! And this is from someone who is fascinated by ancient times and cultures, and thinks we can learn a lot from ancient civilizations. One must be judged on their actions, not the actions of those who died hundreds or thousands of years ago. As for Iraq kids not taking weapons to school and blowing away their classmate, well, you got me there, I can't think of any instances, but then again, they were probably much more worried about their goverment torturing them without cause. Yes, there is a great country from which we must learn much. Social experience is a wonderful thing, but you must use it to get something from it.

I am not going to get into the nastiness of pointing out the evils that existed in these older cultures that you want us to respect so greatly. There was good and there was bad, and we must judge that as objectively as possible and judge people by who they are.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by El Greco


I can't speak for Cleopatra, but I think she has proven that she doesn't feel that way about Americans. She's been chatting you people all day long. How could she do it if she had the idea "you don't think ?" I'm sure that this was mentioned in the context of "Europhobia".

Also, has any of you stayed in Europe for some time ? Why did you walk away from DavidJames' post ?




Yeap, I didn't reply to Chani because I thought that she'd see the next post of mine where I explained why I said that thing.

I was married to an American, I have lived in the States, I have American people among my best friends, I spend many hours a day interating with Americans, I look for a way to return to the States :)

I am a living example of Philo-americanism!!!

Hey!! I confess!! I even like John Denver!!!!

[Cleopatra]

Tony, Chani and others.

Don't stick on the details try to see the general picture. If you are interested to see why people like you or deslike you as a nation you have to see first how they think, you have to understand their priorities in life, you have to try to see things from their side if you are interested in understanding how they see you.

The rest of the world also, is wrong when it extracts conclusions about the American people from Hollywood or from Michael Moore, or from the American Foreign Policy.

BUT have in mind that it's more difficult for us to overlook the American Policy because it affects our everyday life dramatically!Greek Politics don't affect your everyday life at all :)

[Tony]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

I chose my words carefully. I talked about the benefits of accumulated social experience to the everyday life. USA is not so innocent about those tyrannies you know ;)


If those "benefits" havent helped them escape the 13th century are they really benefits?

There is a simple example. We ( in Middle East) eat slowly and since you are young and the matter interests you, the Art of Love making was discovered in those retarded middle Eastern tyrannies you despise so much :) Kama Sutra could never have been an.... American book :)

I don’t see why not. I think you're comparing bananas and hotdogs (I am tired of apples and oranges ;) ). A simple medieval existence is a lot different from living in the 21st century.

They have earned it Tony. They have invented everything that really matters in life and they have survived for thousands of years.

I wasn’t aware that the car, the computer, the cell phone the refrigerator, the microwave, the oven, the printing press, electricity and every other invention fundamental to everyday life were Islamic inventions.

So far you've listed eating slow and sex as the crowning achievement of these societies with "social experience".

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Chanileslie

Outside of the Whitehouse cafeteria, I don't think anyone used the term Freedom Fries. It did not change on any of the menues that I have noted, nor do I know anyone who used that absurdity. I have seen "freedom fries" on menus in upstate new york and here in new hampshire. I won't eat them. Give me french fries cooked in lard, or give me death!

Re: Cleopatra's comment about americans not thinking....Only on this forum have I met americans who are well-versed in european or global matters. The vase majority, in my admittedly anecdotal experience (which, to be fair, includes thousands of college students) have no clue. It is precisely as Cleopatra said, for them: it is not that they have a negative opinion, it is that they have no opinion. It is not that they think they don't like europeans, it is that they don't think [about the issue] at all. In context, she is not calling us idiots.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Tony


If those "benefits" havent helped them escape the 13th century are they really benefits?

Aha! Good question. Have you ever wondered if they want to escape from 13th ce? :) If their everyday life is ok and works for them, why change it. The West wants to change them in order they start consuming its products!! Even Democracy is a Western product designed for Western needs.

Your next trip must be in Middle East.Of course after you visit London you will be so thrilled that you will want to go everytime in London but you are young anyway, you have time for everything.I have travelled all around Middle East and Northern Africa on foot mostly. Yeap! You read well :) I remember I was with an American friend in Jerusalem and I proposed her we go to a public bath--one of the most civilized habis of mankind. I think that it was the shock of her life. If we have participated in an orgy she would feel more comfortable LOL

I don’t see why not. I think you're comparing bananas and hotdogs (I am tired of apples and oranges ;) ). A simple medieval existence is a lot different from living in the 21st century.

Of course. We can't live like them there is no doubt about that and frankly I don't want to but I think that we must leave them to run their lives the way the wish.

I wasn’t aware that the car, the computer, the cell phone the refrigerator, the microwave, the oven, the printing press, electricity and every other invention fundamental to everyday life were Islamic inventions.

Comparing to the Mediterranean and Middle Eastern History, Islamism appeared five minutes ago :) No they haven't invented cars but they have invented everything that was necessary for us to invent the cars because we were the ones who needed them.

Have a told you the story of the Byzantine Emperor that he had achieved many inventions but he used them just to create magical tricks to intimidate the foreign delegates that visited him in the Palace or you have escaped this one? :p

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Mercutio
It is precisely as Cleopatra said, for them: it is not that they have a negative opinion, it is that they have no opinion. It is not that they think they don't like europeans, it is that they don't think [about the issue] at all. In context, she is not calling us idiots.


Of course! Americans idiots? On the contrary!People that have such a great sense of humor can be nothing but very smart.

I have mentioned it before, what bothers Europeans most is that although Americans determine our lives, they know very few things about us, if they know something... Of course, what do we know about life in Montana or Iowa? Nothing at all, but at least we don't affect the lives of people in Montana and Iowa :)

Now that I am thinking about it. The vote of somebody in Montana affects my life in Greece.... I know for sure that it has affected my life at least once...

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Mercutio
I have seen "freedom fries" on menus in upstate new york and here in new hampshire. I won't eat them. Give me french fries cooked in lard, or give me death!

Re: Cleopatra's comment about americans not thinking....Only on this forum have I met americans who are well-versed in european or global matters. The vase majority, in my admittedly anecdotal experience (which, to be fair, includes thousands of college students) have no clue. It is precisely as Cleopatra said, for them: it is not that they have a negative opinion, it is that they have no opinion. It is not that they think they don't like europeans, it is that they don't think [about the issue] at all. In context, she is not calling us idiots.

I think the freedom fries may have been more localized to the east coast. I haven't heard that term used here other than referring to the absurdities. I probably would have walked out of any restaurant that was silly enough to rename the fries as Freedom Fries.

I wouldn't disagree that many people in the United States don't have a clue especially when it leaves their little 100 mile square sphere of thinking, but what I object to are generalizations. Now, if say Cleopatra had modified what she had written by stating that many American's don't think, I wouldn't have a problem, but that is not what was stated. I really honestly believe that generalities, especially when they are of a negative nature can and do lead to atrocity because it demeans a segment of the population without clarification or exceptions, and can lead to a more herd mentality that ignores the exceptions and just batters everyone equally. But more to my point, it is those generalities, and I used Cleopatra's post as an example because it was convenient, that do lead many Americans to believe they are despised outside of our country.

I don't agree with that opinion, btw. I really don't think the majority of the world despises me personally or me because of my nationality. I do believe that many people do despise my government and some of the very negative actions that have been taken by the US government, and I agree. I am not to fond of our current administration nor their actions nor their desire to beat everyone into compliance.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Tony, Chani and others.

Don't stick on the details try to see the general picture. If you are interested to see why people like you or deslike you as a nation you have to see first how they think, you have to understand their priorities in life, you have to try to see things from their side if you are interested in understanding how they see you.

The rest of the world also, is wrong when it extracts conclusions about the American people from Hollywood or from Michael Moore, or from the American Foreign Policy.

BUT have in mind that it's more difficult for us to overlook the American Policy because it affects our everyday life dramatically!Greek Politics don't affect your everyday life at all :)

I have no doubt that American policy effects on a global scale, and many times not in a positive manner. I often critisize my government and it's actions, and I do vote, but alas, my vote means relatively nothing. Heck, when it comes to presidential elections, the decision is already made before my state is even counted, many times even before our poles close.

My point, once again, is it is comments like those you have made in this thread that leads many Americans to feel that the world hates them. I do not feel that way, but you have used generalities, which leads one to believe that you mean us as a whole. If I said, "Oh, those Greeks, they are such sexist pigs." or "Oh, those English, they are such boring sticks in the mud." Or those French, they are such rude jerks." ect. It would be fair from the content of my comments to surmise that I mean all Greeks, English, French, ect. I did not modify that in the least. I have known people who fit those stereotypes, but they do not encompass the people as a whole.

In my opinion, generalities lead to prejudism, prejudism leads to hate, and hate leads to atrocity. It is very easy to objectify a group when you stop thinking of them as individuals and just think of them as "that group" or "those people".

Once again, I will state, that I do not feel that the world hates Americans, but I can understand why many Americans may feel that way. My husband and I have argued over this point many times; we have agreed to disagree. :)

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Chanileslie
My point, once again, is it is comments like those you have made in this thread that leads many Americans to feel that the world hates them. I do not feel that way, but you have used generalities, which leads one to believe that you mean us as a whole. If I said, "Oh, those Greeks, they are such sexist pigs." or "Oh, those English, they are such boring sticks in the mud." Or those French, they are such rude jerks." ect. It would be fair from the content of my comments to surmise that I mean all Greeks, English, French, ect. I did not modify that in the least. I have known people who fit those stereotypes, but they do not encompass the people as a whole.

Generalizations like the above are used all the time between Europeans. Think about us and the Turks... yet, I think that Turks feel much more comfortable in Greece than Americans do. It happens all the time you know, because we have had many wars and we still have many nations in a relatively small continent. French vs British, Germans vs French, Swedish vs Norwegians, Italians vs Turks, Czechs vs Slovacs etc. Not to mention Serbia vs Croatia and pretty much [everyone in Balkans] vs [everyone else in Balkans]. They all generalize when they speak about the others. However, I have rarely encountered such undue prejudice. Maybe, exactly because we are so clustered, we have learnt to put up with differences among us.

The funny thing in this thread is that we argue about a subject that we Europeans know first hand (-> we know how Americans are treated when they come here), while most of the American contributors have admitted that they don't have personal experience. As if we had any reason to mislead you or lie about the facts...

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by El Greco

The funny thing in this thread is that we argue about a subject that we Europeans know first hand (-> we know how Americans are treated when they come here), while most of the American contributors have admitted that they don't have personal experience. As if we had any reason to mislead you or lie about the facts...

Perhaps. But you have to understand this point. Everyday on the news, on the interenet, even on this very board, I hear from Europeans (and Australians, and Asians, and.....) how the fact that I am an American makes me a wretched excuse for a human being who ought to just throw himslef off of the nearest bridge. It is hard for me to accept that my recpetion over there would be friendly.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


Perhaps. But you have to understand this point. Everyday on the news, on the interenet, even on this very board, I hear from Europeans (and Australians, and Asians, and.....) how the fact that I am an American makes me a wretched excuse for a human being who ought to just throw himslef off of the nearest bridge. It is hard for me to accept that my recpetion over there would be friendly.

Barring "the news" (for aforementioned reasons), could it be that you tend to interpret the reactions of people according to what you expect from them, a la "successful cold reading" ? Because, I really really haven't noticed a hostility against American people around the net, and I have been participating in multinational fora for quite a long time. Most of the universe dislikes American politics, that's a given, but this is as far as it goes.

[Mercutio]

I am one of those who has never been overseas (though I desperately want to go), but my parents and siblings all have. They have had almost nothing but good things to report--certainly, they were treated as well or better than they would have been in an equivalent amount of time anywhere in the US. They do say that at one level, they are told that americans are stereotyped and (depending on the place) sometimes disliked; in the same breath, they say that the people who tell them this are absolutely wonderful to them. It appears that americans, even if they are hated as a group, are treated as the individuals they are. Which pretty much can be said for how I have been treated from place to place within the US (e.g., Texans are not fond of "yankees", but I have never met a texan in or out of texas who was not absolutely wonderful to me.)

My brother also reported the same thing that El Greco here has said, that the generalizations and stereotypes are very common, but that once again, in his experience people were treated as individuals. I am certain that there are subgroups who will target someone for membership in one group or another, but that, sadly, seems to be the case everywhere.