why do apple products suck?

[nathan]

I've had yet another run in with an apple product. I don't understand why everybody seems to rave about them.

The latest escapade is a iphone for MrsMe. This comes in a box With No Instructions. I found the little paperclip that's used to insert the sim -- the only reason I figured it out is because it's like the little hole used to extract recalcitrant cds. Then it still wouldn't work saying 'emergency calls only'. Two calls to tech support later indicate I need to download itunes. Why? Why no 'read me first, goto <here> and download <this>'. No, I'm supposed to just know that obviously I ignore apple's iphone website and go to itunes. Neither site has a 'got a new iphone, you need to start <here>' linky.

Of course itunes says 'sorry something went wrong, please uninstall and reinstall'. At this point I gave up. MrsMe wanted the iphone, she'll have the pleasure of making it go.

grr.

[aggle-rithm]

Apples are fine on their own, but when you try to make them into energy bars or cereal, they fall short.

They are also not nearly sturdy enough to make furniture out of, although Ikea has no doubt tried.

[paiute]

I've had yet another run in with an apple product. I don't understand why everybody seems to rave about them.

You are entirely right. Apple products - iPhone, iPods, iMacs, etc. - take way too many brains to operate. You have to apply way too much energy to understanding how the technology works rather than just being able to open the box and say, "Earl Grey, hot." the way it should be.

The problem is that these sucky Apple products are only outsucked by - every other computer product available. They are the worst technology you can buy except for everything else.

[theMark]

Weird. Seeing how the title is a crass generalization when you're angry at your wife's iPhone, what are we supposed to answer now? "Thanks for venting"? :D

I don't like the iPhone either. Too expensive for the once-or-twice-a-month mobile user that I am.
Then again, other products of the fruit company have not given me any major trouble since 1996, so I'm obviously pro-Apple biased. :rolleyes:

Good luck. Try a HTC next time. They have different issues :duck:

[nathan]

Weird. Seeing how the title is a crass generalization when you're angry at your wife's iPhone, what are we supposed to answer now? "Thanks for venting"? :D

I thought I made it clear that this was the latest in a series of adventures with apple products. *every* apple product I have had the 'joy' to use has sucked -- sucked worse than Microsoft, which I find astounding.

[elgarak]

Then why do you continue to buy them?

[Professor Yaffle]

Personally, I think cider is great.

[theMark]

I thought I made it clear that this was the latest in a series of adventures with apple products. *every* apple product I have had the 'joy' to use has sucked -- sucked worse than Microsoft, which I find astounding.

Ah, then I misread the OP. Well, I guess then you're simply not an "Apple" person.
Years of exposure to Microsoft products can do that to even the most hopeful :p

No, seriously: Pick what you're happy with. I've got a PC for coding for PC clients, some Macs for "all the rest". A few people I know switched to Mac rather painlessly. Others didn't.

That's life. Can't cure them all :)

Uh, people don't take my pondering all that seriously, do they? :rolleyes:

[alfaniner]

Did you buy it from an Apple store? My salesperson was pretty good about explaining the basics.

Personally, I would prefer to have a manual in hand, rather than having to go to a web page or even reading it in a pdf.

[I Ratant]

I received an iPod for xmas a couple years back from my nephew in the Marines.
He'd preloaded it with lots of stuff (he knows computers).
Going onto the Apple site to register it, the first thing Apple did was format the memory, wiping off -all- the stuff he'd put on it.
I haven't bothered with it (or anything Apple) since.

[Professor Yaffle]

Apple schnapps is good too.

[Seanette]

I lean toward Windows computers, simply because that's what I'm familiar with. Love my iPod, though. :D

[GreNME]

Good luck. Try a HTC next time. They have different issues :duck:

Yeah, it sucks how you can tether your HTC phone when it has a data plan... cellular wireless without extra fees blows. :p

I hear the iPhone might be "innovating" phone tethering some time soon, though, so those who have an iPhone might soon enjoy the benefit too! (actually, if it happens, I might switch to one for my personal phone)

[theMark]

http://www.apple.com/iphone/preview-iphone-os/

Well... some time later this year, copy-paste comes to the iPhone. And the phone-as-a-modem thing with the bluetooth thingamajig.

Not that I really care. My mobile cost 25 $ in 2006 and it still works. :p

[GreNME]

Yeah, I just read about the tethering answer a short while ago. So now the onus is on AT&T to get their butts in gear. Too bad the iPhone OS doesn't have what WinMobile has, which is basically the full-blown Windows version of Internet Connection Sharing but for their mobile OS. That's how I (personally) bypass having to pay for tethering when I already have a data plan.

It's not like Apple couldn't do it, it's that AT&T would have a hissy-fit. I wish Apple would do it so that AT&T can get dropped sooner as far as exclusivity goes (it's gotta happen eventually). I'd like to upgrade my Verizon phone to it, were it available.

[chefpeon]

I bought my iPhone at an Apple Store, and it was quite an event.
You had to stand in the "I want to buy an iPhone" line and wait for a tech guy to help you. He asked me what I wanted....8G or 16G, white or black, and he went and got it. Then he took it out of the box and set it all up. My phone was completely up and working once I got out of the store. It's a good thing, because you're right, it doesn't come with a manual or anything. This is typical of Apple products across the board. Apparently they think their stuff is so intuitive you should automatically know what to do. I do hate their lack of hard copy when it comes to instructions, troubleshooting and help.

Other than that, I've had no complaints about Apple or my iPhone. I think it's the coolest thing ever, and something that I will use to Twitter on at TAM.
I really hope the new "copy and paste" feature is a software update and not something that you can only get with a new model.

[BenBurch]

I've owned a large number of Apples and several Windows boxes. Apples don't suck.

My list;

Apple //c
Macintosh 512K
Macintosh Plus
Macintosh IIx
Macintosh IIci
Powerbook 145
Macintosh Quadra 700
Original Bondi iMac
Tangerine iBook
450 MHz Graphite iMac
600 MHz Snow iMac
800 MHz eMac
1.0 GHz eMac
Flat Panel iMac (Mid 2007 model - this machine)

And an iPod Touch.

Zero problems.

NO Viruses.

[Damien Evans]

When Macs can play all my windows games then I might consider buying one.

[BenBurch]

When Macs can play all my windows games then I might consider buying one.

Well, you know, they probably can.

I can run XP on my mac at the same time as everything else with Parallels Desktop. I routinely play Microsoft Train Simulator that way, and this isn't even all that fast a machine.

I can even have Linux, XP and OSX going at the same time.

Get a Mac Pro with a quad core and 8GB RAM and you'll be playing the fastest Windows games.

[elgarak]

I, too, have never encountered a sucky Apple product.

Not even the 3rd gen shuffle I got today -- which is an awesome product once you use it. Not for everyone, though, I admit. Currently requires Apple compatible ears ;). (Funny though that the VoiceOver thinks Alan Silvestri is Spanish and reads all his tracks with Spanish accent.)

I do notice, however, a fairly obvious difference between nathan and me -- I always seem to know the features of products before I buy them (and the ones my family buys and expects me to troubleshoot -- mostly because they come to me for research beforehand). I knew, for instance, that one needs iTunes to use an iPhone, even though I do not own one.

[theMark]

Get a Mac Pro with a quad core and 8GB RAM and you'll be playing the fastest Windows games.

To be fair, no. There's the whole fun (ahem) of parsing endless lists of minute tech specs to find the One True Graphics Card whose 0.5 frames per second advantage over all the Many False Graphics Cards will render you a god among men, come to spank them all in deathmatch in the dystopian concrete caves of (name of popular first-person-shooter withheld).*
Plus, given the right active cooling with highly volatile liquids, the off-the-shelf CPUs in Apple's booooring designer cases hold no candle to an overclocked, hand-tuned silicon heart racing inside the abomination of plastic, PU foam, glowing lights, whirling fans (with separately illuminated blades) and menacing skull-molded screws holding laser-cut windows in place to offer a glimpse into the glowing and glowering cable entrails of a True Modern Gamer PC.

Did I miss a cliché? :duck:

Sad thing is, I know these kind of folks. Yes, they're nice, but "Aw MAN! Don't touch that knob! The RPM of the fans was PERFECT!" :D


*) The frame rate of the attached flat panel is fixed at 60 Hertz, but "134 Hz TOTALLY makes a different, I tell you! 132 Hz is SOOO last week! WILL YOU LOOK AT THAT BENCHMARK?!"

[erlando]

The latest escapade is a iphone for MrsMe. This comes in a box With No Instructions. I found the little paperclip that's used to insert the sim -- the only reason I figured it out is because it's like the little hole used to extract recalcitrant cds. Then it still wouldn't work saying 'emergency calls only'. Two calls to tech support later indicate I need to download itunes. Why? Why no 'read me first, goto <here> and download <this>'. No, I'm supposed to just know that obviously I ignore apple's iphone website and go to itunes. Neither site has a 'got a new iphone, you need to start <here>' linky.

*opens iPhone box*
*takes out little black container of documents*
*notices "clip" and accompanying picture on opposite side*
*takes out "Getting started" document that lies on top*
*notices first item on list is "Get iTunes"*
*notices links for further information in "Getting started" document*

Are you sure you bought an iPhone?

[Crundy]

There's nothing really that different about problems with an Apple product and a Microsoft product. The difference is, when an Apple product goes wrong, no-one makes a fuss about it. When a Microsoft product goes wrong, every blogger, news writer and forum poster flips into maniac mode and goes on and on about "another" crap M$ product.

A good example is when the first iPhone had a vulnerability (http://www.wired.com/politics/security/news/2007/10/iphone_windows) that could basically allow someone to remotely turn someone elses iPhone into a remote listening device. No-one cared too much and the vulnerability was patched, so no worries. Can you imagine the uproar if that was a Microsoft product?

I presume it's the same reason no-one writes mass viruses for Linux (unless it's for spamming / information harvesting purposes); no-one wants to pick on the 'good guys'. The wife has an iPod (wouldn't settle for a rival product which was cheaper and had better features because it wasn't cool), but I personally wouldn't bother. I'd rather have something functional instead of a fashion accessory.

[theMark]

There's nothing really that different about problems with an Apple product and a Microsoft product. The difference is, when an Apple product goes wrong, no-one makes a fuss about it. When a Microsoft product goes wrong, every blogger, news writer and forum poster flips into maniac mode and goes on and on about "another" crap M$ product.

Not heard about the class action suits because of graphics chips problems and other things? The complaints about the PSU noise in the PowerMac G5? Scratchy iPods? Dying mainboards due to capacitor failure in the iMac that lead to extended warranties? Apple folks are HARD to please, and they DO complain loudly.

A good example is when the first iPhone had a vulnerability (http://www.wired.com/politics/security/news/2007/10/iphone_windows) that could basically allow someone to remotely turn someone elses iPhone into a remote listening device. No-one cared too much and the vulnerability was patched, so no worries. Can you imagine the uproar if that was a Microsoft product?

Most exploits for MS products are rather quick to show up "in the wild" and they do cause damage. I'm not sure how many people were affected by e.g. the iChat vulnerability, or the head-to-the-table stupidity of Safari's default download processing.

I presume it's the same reason no-one writes mass viruses for Linux (unless it's for spamming / information harvesting purposes); no-one wants to pick on the 'good guys'.

The bad guys don't care if they pick on the good guys. There's money to be made in the darker alleys of IT, and they would be stupid to go after rarer or difficult targets when there's a fairly standardized monoculture ready for the picking. If the chance of the next visitor to a corrupted ad server is 9 vs. 1 to be a Microsoft product, why bother adapting to the minorities?

The wife has an iPod (wouldn't settle for a rival product which was cheaper and had better features because it wasn't cool), but I personally wouldn't bother. I'd rather have something functional instead of a fashion accessory.

Guess why I'm using an iPod? (one of four, if you want to know - car, work, bathroom, gym) :)
No, seriously: I've had my fill of those cheap, multi-functional gadgets from "other suppliers". Hard-drive based ones with issues not fixed by the next firmware. And the next. And again. I even have a Shuffle 2G look-alike with an added display and recording abilities and whatnot. It sucks. The battery's a joke, the functionality is beyond cryptic and it's an ugly lump of plastic imitating the Shuffle 2G at 1.5:1 scale. Yes, it was cheap. So what? If it doesn't work right, it still was too expensive. Blech.

[malbui]

*opens iPhone box*
*takes out little black container of documents*
*notices "clip" and accompanying picture on opposite side*
*takes out "Getting started" document that lies on top*
*notices first item on list is "Get iTunes"*
*notices links for further information in "Getting started" document*

Are you sure you bought an iPhone?


I have to say that was exactly my experience when I bought my iPhone last November.

My only other Mac experience is with a MacMini I bought second-hand a couple of years ago to play with and see if it would be as good for audio and video stuff as the fanboys reckoned. It took me 20 minutes to get accustomed to the interface and pretty soon I was convinced that it was as good for audio and video stuff as the fanboys reckoned.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Guess why I'm using an iPod? (one of four, if you want to know - car, work, bathroom, gym) :)
No, seriously: I've had my fill of those cheap, multi-functional gadgets from "other suppliers". Hard-drive based ones with issues not fixed by the next firmware. And the next. And again. I even have a Shuffle 2G look-alike with an added display and recording abilities and whatnot. It sucks. The battery's a joke, the functionality is beyond cryptic and it's an ugly lump of plastic imitating the Shuffle 2G at 1.5:1 scale. Yes, it was cheap. So what? If it doesn't work right, it still was too expensive. Blech.

That's, er, interesting. Every independent test I've seen puts several players above the iPod in terms of soundquality etc. Even the Gadget Show, reknowned apple lovers had to admit both the iPhone and iPod were outdone by several rivals* when they tested them...they still ended up saying they'd pick the Apple product, essentially because they're 'so gorgeous'.** Not exactly the criteria I want applied by a so-called tech show (though Suzi Perry is gorgeous! ;o).

*From memory, it was a Nokia that beat the iPhone on virtually every standard phone feature and especially on the iPhone's extremely outdated camera. Think it was a Sony that beat the iPod - better soundquality (by a long way, seriously impressing the guest reviewer who was a massive iPod fan), better build quality, better feature set, ease of use etc. Similarly, when they looked at video quality, the iPod came way down the list.

**Oh and the only reason other than looks that they gave for still buying the iPod was iTunes. They even stated there was no other way to get video content for the other players, which is a level of ignorance I've never encountered before.:jaw-dropp

[elgarak]

That's, er, interesting. Every independent test I've seen puts several players above the iPod in terms of soundquality etc. Even the Gadget Show, reknowned apple lovers had to admit both the iPhone and iPod were outdone by several rivals* when they tested them...they still ended up saying they'd pick the Apple product, essentially because they're 'so gorgeous'.** Not exactly the criteria I want applied by a so-called tech show (though Suzi Perry is gorgeous! ;o).

What good is super-duper sound quality (or do I misread your post when I claim it's only about that?) when jumping from song to song is a pain, you cannot group songs that you think belong together, or the battery doesn't last a trans-atlantic flight (for me)?

You have to see the whole product, not just one feature. (And if you look at serious contenders for the iPod from non-Apple, they're generally not cheaper.)

As for why I bought four iPods over time (one was a gift), they do exactly what I want them to do. They have the features I value most, and they work like I expect them to.

A lot of people actually like the Zune, and most of them point out it has a FM radio. But I haven't found a decent FM radio station in years. Why would *I* want one? (Not to mention that I helped a friend to set one up, and Microsoft's handling of metadata was abysmal. Maybe they have fixed it by now. Not that I care.)

[elgarak]

Another point: The iPod's success is, for a great deal, based on iTunes. Apple understood that you need to people give an infrastructure to get music. This is what other music players, despite all features and quality, lacked at the time. And I'm not only talking about the iTunes store, I also include the CD-rip, and the library organizer.

A lot of (non-techies, and non-geeks) people have asked me: "Where do I get the music to put on there?" A lot of people, average folk, have never ripped a CD before, and were only aware of download sites from news reports, but not from firsthand experience. It's those people that Apple gave a complete solution to get music, legit, without bad conscience, onto good quality, easy-to-use iPods that made it the leader.

[Darat]

Another point: The iPod's success is, for a great deal, based on locking people into iTunes.

...snip....


I agree, if you add in the part I've put in highlight.

[technoextreme]

I, too, have never encountered a sucky Apple product.

Their software sucks for Windows.

[NobbyNobbs]

I had a Powerbook for 5 years, and in all that time didn't have one single software problem. It never crashed. Never lost data. Ran whatever I wanted it to run. I only had one hardware problem (loose power port) but that was because I tripped over the power cord one too many times.

[elgarak]

Their software sucks for Windows.
That's what people are saying, but I don't know why.

Back when I was still a 100% Win user, I ran QuickTime and iTunes all the time, without much trouble. Never had crashes, or library problems with iTunes. I preferred QuickTime over most alternatives. I don't know why people hate them. I thought they were, back then, fairly nice applications. Except for the fact that a lot of geeks erroneously thought that iTunes had only one purpose, namely to load iPods with stuff. Or that it was just another player. For that, of course it's to bloated, but it was intended for more.

[theMark]

I agree, if you add in the part I've put in highlight.
I disagree on that. I never felt locked into iTunes after I bought my first iPod.

Then again, maybe this was because it happened the other way around: I already used iTunes for several years before the first pair of white earbuds found its way into my life. :)

Did you know you can drag-and-drop MP3s from iTunes to any MP3 player that shows as mass storage device in Windows? :duck:

[GreNME]

That's what people are saying, but I don't know why.

Back when I was still a 100% Win user, I ran QuickTime and iTunes all the time, without much trouble. Never had crashes, or library problems with iTunes. I preferred QuickTime over most alternatives. I don't know why people hate them. I thought they were, back then, fairly nice applications. Except for the fact that a lot of geeks erroneously thought that iTunes had only one purpose, namely to load iPods with stuff. Or that it was just another player. For that, of course it's to bloated, but it was intended for more.

Yeah, trust me, they totally suck on Windows now. I like them just fine on my MBP running Leopard, but I avoid installing even Quicktime on my WIndows machines if at all possible because of how they behave. They're too persistent, constantly requiring package updates (they do on the Mac, too), and no matter what I do I can't keep the software out of my startup list. This is on top of the fact that they run way slower on Windows than on the Mac, and for files that aren't MOV videos, WMP or pretty much anything else will play them better (which says a lot right there).

Between the unnecessary persistence and the sluggish performance on Windows, I'd definitely agree with those who dislike the lock-in for iPhones despite liking the software just fine on the Mac.

[technoextreme]

That's what people are saying, but I don't know why.

Back when I was still a 100% Win user, I ran QuickTime and iTunes all the time, without much trouble. Never had crashes, or library problems with iTunes. I preferred QuickTime over most alternatives. I don't know why people hate them. I thought they were, back then, fairly nice applications. Except for the fact that a lot of geeks erroneously thought that iTunes had only one purpose, namely to load iPods with stuff. Or that it was just another player. For that, of course it's to bloated, but it was intended for more.
I've had it forcibly delete software off my computer that I was in the middle of using. I've had them delete my Itunes account.

[Almo]

I've had issues with some Apple software, but very little trouble with the hardware. I've had loads of trouble with Windows software, and several issues with PC hardware. I won't touch Linux stuff... seen too much at friends' places. Just not nice enough for me.

Sorry to hear people have had trouble, but in general I've found that I and the people I know on average have less trouble with Apple stuff than PC stuff. I know many people with iPhones (some computer illiterate as hell) and none have complained.

Must be something really odd going on with your wife's iPhone. :(

[Wudang]

Apple schnapps is good too.

And Calvados.

[nathan]

Then why do you continue to buy them?

Let me clarify, this iphone is the first product apple product i have *bought*, I only bought it because mrs me said 'please buy me an iphone for my birthday'. Due to my bad experiences before, I would not have bought it by choice. Anyway, she's pleased with it and it's not my problem any more.

Let me relate my first story. I was given an ipod (woohoo). It had one of the then-new touch-scroll wheels, rather than the clicky rotating one. It invited clicking on the four cardinal points, but didn't invite[1] rotational scrolling -- it took me a while to figure out that you could do that. Anyway, it locked itself up and tech support directed me to press the stop button and the play button simultaneously to do a hard reset (IIRC there may have been a poke-hidden-power-button involved). This didn't work, and it got shipped off for repair, which found nothing wrong. Six months later I discovered that Apple calls the button in the middle the 'play' button, as opposed to the button with the 'play|pause' symbol on it, which tape players have had since, well, *for ever*. That struck me as completely arrogant UI labelling.

The ipod bricked itself shortly after the warantee expired, and the apple-documented debrickify dance failed to resuscitate it.

[1] A designer once explained to me that if something is designed to be operated by doing X it should invite you to do X. Doors that have to be labelled 'push' and 'pull' have failed in their design.

[nathan]

*takes out "Getting started" document that lies on top*
*notices first item on list is "Get iTunes"*
*notices links for further information in "Getting started" document*

There is no 'getting started' leaflet in the box *that's my point*. If there was I would have read it. Tech support confirmed that Apple don't put getting started guides in.

There's a leaflet telling you all the wonderful things the iphone will do, but nothing about unlocking it to allow it to do any of those things. And another leaflet about what frequencies it uses, what interfaces it has etc.

Are you sure you bought an iPhone?

O2 will have defrauded me if it is not. How do you suggest I determine it is a genuine iPhone? Should I phone apple and say this dude on the internet told me genuine iPhones have getting started guides? :)

[nathan]

Years of exposure to Microsoft products can do that to even the most hopeful :p

I think you must have me confused with someone else :)

[GreNME]

Not heard about the class action suits because of graphics chips problems and other things? The complaints about the PSU noise in the PowerMac G5? Scratchy iPods? Dying mainboards due to capacitor failure in the iMac that lead to extended warranties? Apple folks are HARD to please, and they DO complain loudly.

The difference is in the volume, not the actuality of things occurring, I'll agree. I've certainly heard of plenty of Apple gripes, but I will also say that nearly none of them reach the level of active hate-mongering as do the ones for Microsoft products. The volume difference is definitely noticable.

Most exploits for MS products are rather quick to show up "in the wild" and they do cause damage. I'm not sure how many people were affected by e.g. the iChat vulnerability, or the head-to-the-table stupidity of Safari's default download processing.

This just isn't true. Microsoft is slower than some other companies in releasing a patch once a vulnerability is identified, but Apple is not one of those companies. That Apple software doesn't see much in the way of active exploits isn't surprising, because unlike Linux they don't have a leading server market (which is where the Linux `sploits usually show up) and are not the leader by wide margins on the desktop market (which is where the Win `sploits usually show up). Still, though, most of the common exploits in the wild right now are not with Windows, and many aren't even solely relying on IE as their vector any more (thanks to Firefox making huge strides). Still, when it comes to releasing patches to vulnerabilities, Microsoft tends to rate at least as well as Red Hat for patch times, and Apple tends to lag behind most major software companies in patch time releases.

The bad guys don't care if they pick on the good guys. There's money to be made in the darker alleys of IT, and they would be stupid to go after rarer or difficult targets when there's a fairly standardized monoculture ready for the picking. If the chance of the next visitor to a corrupted ad server is 9 vs. 1 to be a Microsoft product, why bother adapting to the minorities?

More like 9.5 to .5 instead of 9 to 1, which better explains the reason malware focuses on the monoculture. You touched on a good point, but you're mistaking "rare" for "difficult"-- recent conferences on security had Apples at least as easy to exploit as Windows machines in similar configurations, and I think it was last year where one guy even exploited an Apple machine faster than a Windows machine. It was a browser hack, which (like most Windows exploits) requires tricking the user, but it worked on the Mac where it didn't on the Windows computer.

None of that is to argue that Macs or all Apple stuff sucks, or that Microsoft or Apple stuff is inherently superior to the other. More and more, especially the more I learn and the more experience I get, the more I don't care either way what I'm working on. It's six of one or half-dozen of the other in my mind any more. Similar to how someone once told me long ago that "we're all pink in the middle," I hardly see much difference going on under the hood these days. And the constant focus on security? People make a whole lot bigger deal of it than needs to be, because the main factor in avoiding most exploits these days hinges on the user of the computer, not the hardware or software being used.

I understand the necessity of keeping things patched and I'm aware of taking the proper precautions-- like antivirus and firewalls-- and I make sure to follow the basic good practices in security as far as that's concerned. That's all a habit, and considering my job (IT manager) it's standard procedure. But the things that keep the systems at home and where I work safe and secure have more to do with practices like Least Privilege and App Filtering, as well as the concept of having users avoid downloading, clicking, or saving from unknown or untrusted sources. Most of it isn't rocket surgery, it just seems like it's more complex because "the internet" is still viewed by many as being practically magical in its abilities.

[erlando]

There is no 'getting started' leaflet in the box *that's my point*. If there was I would have read it. Tech support confirmed that Apple don't put getting started guides in.

Then I find it very strange that my iPhone came with what on danish is called "Startvejledning". Translated that would be "Getting started" og "Start guide".

There's a leaflet telling you all the wonderful things the iphone will do, but nothing about unlocking it to allow it to do any of those things. And another leaflet about what frequencies it uses, what interfaces it has etc.

That's it..

Does this leaflet have a number of pictures with accompanying descriptions of functions? In this leaflet you can find links for the manual in your language on apple's website. Did you read the manual? You can also find a list of things to do - the first bullet is "Download iTunes".

O2 will have defrauded me if it is not. How do you suggest I determine it is a genuine iPhone? Should I phone apple and say this dude on the internet told me genuine iPhones have getting started guides? :)

Yours do have what I call a getting started guide. Maybe you just didn't read it close enough? I mean no offence by this.

The quality of the docs in the box could be debated but saying that the iPhone comes with no documentation and "not even a link" is simply untrue.

[Crundy]

Microsoft is slower than some other companies in releasing a patch once a vulnerability is identified

The majority of exploits are created when the patch for the vulnerability is released, as hackers reverse engineer the patch to see what was fixed and where. Therefore the main "danger" point in the timeline is between the patch being released and the customer installing the patch. At least Microsoft have released auto updates to get critical patches installed as soon as possible.

[HarryKeogh]

Apple products do not suck. I just heard the new iPhone software will have an innovative feature called "cut and paste".

Seriously, I do love my iPhone. I use so many of its features but it's funny to see people on Mac message boards get excited about something that's been on other smart phones for years.

And as for Macs never crashing...someone forgot to tell that to my MacBook Pro.

[Darat]

Or my Mac mini.

My major beef with Apple and their products is that if you don't want to do things exactly the way they have decided you should then you are buggered.

[Soapy Sam]

:blush:

[theMark]

Or my Mac mini.

Half a year ago, my Mini suddenly started to act up (freezes, lost files, corrupted files) and was finally "dead in the water" within 48 hours. In the end, it wouldn't even boot from CD-ROM.

Took me some time to realize that the aftermarket memory upgrade had died. Original memory in, restore from "sane" Backup (that's what Time Machine is there for ;) , up and running again.

RAM returned (within warranty :D ), replacement received, and system back and running in the extended configuration on the same evening.

When exactly did this "iPhone is weird" thread turn into anecdotes pro/con Apple? ;)

[GreNME]

The majority of exploits are created when the patch for the vulnerability is released, as hackers reverse engineer the patch to see what was fixed and where. Therefore the main "danger" point in the timeline is between the patch being released and the customer installing the patch. At least Microsoft have released auto updates to get critical patches installed as soon as possible.

Microsoft and Apple both auto-update by default, which is good. I wouldn't hold the danger time between patches and exploits against either, to be honest. Both of them tend to hustle when it's a bad vulnerability (with a few exceptions, of course), Microsoft sometimes releasing before their "patch Tuesday" dates and Apple usually tending to put the patches out there when they're ready.

[ponderingturtle]

A lot of people actually like the Zune, and most of them point out it has a FM radio. But I haven't found a decent FM radio station in years. Why would *I* want one? (Not to mention that I helped a friend to set one up, and Microsoft's handling of metadata was abysmal. Maybe they have fixed it by now. Not that I care.)

Emergency radio.

[ponderingturtle]

Another point: The iPod's success is, for a great deal, based on iTunes. Apple understood that you need to people give an infrastructure to get music.

Yes apple is all about vertical integration.

[BenBurch]

Emergency radio.

iPhone plus the Null River "Tuner" app and you got all the radio you'll ever need...

[GreNME]

The Zune and the iPhone will both probably have some kind of other radio functionality in coming years. Maybe cellular, maybe wimax.

[applecorped]

I use cheap labor.

[gdnp]

I've been an Apple skeptic for over 20 years. My first frustration was using a computer at work and being unable to eject my CC-Rom. no button on the front, like every PC I had ever used. I search in vain for the eject key, either hardware or software, to no avail. I finally asked someone. "Oh, you just drag it to the trash can". Yeah, that's intuitive. Throw out your disk when you want to eject it.

My second annoyance was with multitasking. Again, on the work computers I wanted to open a database program and the hospital information system so that I could cut an paste. That particular computer crashed repeatedly whenever I tried to multitask like this.

the final complaint was mouse technology. My original computer was a 286 clone with a monochrome 12 inch screen. Apple came up with this great new idea of the mouse, and soon they had PC versions. Except the PC versions had 2 buttons instead of one. Then 3 buttons. Then 3 buttons and a scroll wheel. While Apple was making 1 button mice that looked like...I don't know. You clicked the whole damn thing. A work of art, but with a fraction of the functionality of PC mice.

Add to that limited upgradability, external CD drives, limited software, prices that were 50% higher than similar PCs...never seemed worth it.

[GreNME]

Good news: they got the optical drives and the multitasking working. :)

[erlando]

I've been an Apple skeptic for over 20 years.

And it never crossed your mind that just maybe in those 20 years something happened?

My first frustration was using a computer at work and being unable to eject my CC-Rom. no button on the front, like every PC I had ever used. I search in vain for the eject key, either hardware or software, to no avail. I finally asked someone. "Oh, you just drag it to the trash can". Yeah, that's intuitive. Throw out your disk when you want to eject it.

The "trash to eject drive" is no more silly than the "find the strange little icon in the taskbar, right click and stop the driver for the usbdrive to safely remove" you have on windows.

You can also use the keyboard shortcut. Take your pick. It works the same for every drive mounted on a Mac. You cannot say the same about Windows.

My second annoyance was with multitasking. Again, on the work computers I wanted to open a database program and the hospital information system so that I could cut an paste. That particular computer crashed repeatedly whenever I tried to multitask like this.

Because no non-Mac computer ever crashes...

This argument has no validity when talking about computers. Every OS crashes. End of story.

the final complaint was mouse technology.

You can use any USB/bluetooth mouse on a Mac nowadays. Pick one with as many buttons as you want. Personally I prefer to keep the number of buttons under 7.

I'm not saying that a Mac is the be-all-end-all of computers. Far from it. But basing your dislike on a twenty year old experience is just silly. That would be the same as never considering a Ford because the Ford T handled terribly around corners.

[gdnp]

And it never crossed your mind that just maybe in those 20 years something happened?
I'm sure it has, just as upgrades have been made with windows. What I was pointing out was various incidents over 20 years that led me to question whether macs led up to their hype:
1) "macs are intuitive"--they didn't seem that way to me
2) "macs are stable"--the macs at work crashed on me as much or more as my PC at home
3) "macs are cutting edge"--after popularizing the mouse, they lagged in adding additional functionality like additional buttons and scroll wheels.


I'm not saying that a Mac is the be-all-end-all of computers. Far from it. But basing your dislike on a twenty year old experience is just silly. That would be the same as never considering a Ford because the Ford T handled terribly around corners.
My dislike is not based on 20 year old experience, it is based on experience over 20 years. I still must interact with a dual boot imac that our IT geniuses decided was the best unit for our conference room. Whenever possible, I just disconnect it and plug in my own laptop, which despite being 4 year old seems much more reliable. Much of this, I'm sure, is familiarity.

To each his own.

[GreNME]

My dislike is not based on 20 year old experience, it is based on experience over 20 years. I still must interact with a dual boot imac that our IT geniuses decided was the best unit for our conference room. Whenever possible, I just disconnect it and plug in my own laptop, which despite being 4 year old seems much more reliable. Much of this, I'm sure, is familiarity.

To each his own.

Indeed. As the guy who has to deal with this sort of thing for my office, I've noticed that even changes between Windows or Office Suite versions is enough to send some people into a tailspin, while others don't seem to care much as long as they can be walked through the process at least once.

If it makes you feel any better (and you probably noticed it some yourself), there was a lot of complaining going on when OS X first came out. A lot of the Mac faithful were skeptical that this new system was going to be as good as their tried-and-true system, which led to having Mac Classic available on OS X systems, which slowed development of software over to the new binaries, which led to some problems with stability and performance. It was a change, and definitely a change for the better (yes, Mac's did suck), but at first it was a pretty painful change. The bad news is that the Windows world is facing this change now, which is behind a lot of the gripes about Vista-- it's not XP, and noticably so, which means a lot of very late adopters out there, especially in the business world.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Well, iPods I'm good with.

It is the Macs, on the other hand, that I dislike.

Nothing wrong with the software. I would really like to get Garageband.

But Mac prices are ridiculous. Now, I am not someone looking for a dual core Pentium eMachine from Wallmart, but Macs are ******* horrible price wise.

Sure, the mini and the iMac look cool, but I can buy a computer better than the iMac for the price of the mini plus change. And their education discount is of no help.

If Apple was in any way competitive in pricing, I would go with it. But I don't think the premium is justified:

iMac:
2.66 GHz Core 2 Duo
2 GB RAM
320GB HDD
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics
$1,199.00

Linky. (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/imac?mco=MTE2NjM)

HP:
2.33GHZ Core 2 Quad
8 GB RAM
750GB HDD
NVIDIA GeForce 9500 GS 512MB Memory
$939.99

Linky. (http://www.compusa.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4375463&csid=ITD&body=MAIN#detailspecs)

And with the spare I can buy this (http://www.compusa.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4420150&CatId=12) screen that is 1080p and 22" and still come under budget. Not to mention all the extra connections this one comes with,

[The_Animus]

My ipod has worked for 4 years with no problems.

[gdnp]

iMac:
2.66 GHz Core 2 Duo
2 GB RAM
320GB HDD
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics
$1,199.00

Linky. (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/imac?mco=MTE2NjM)

HP:
2.33GHZ Core 2 Quad
8 GB RAM
750GB HDD
NVIDIA GeForce 9500 GS 512MB Memory
$939.99

Linky. (http://www.compusa.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4375463&csid=ITD&body=MAIN#detailspecs)

Of course, you'll need that core2 quad and 8 gigs of RAM to run Vista...

And with the spare I can buy this (http://www.compusa.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4420150&CatId=12) screen that is 1080p and 22" and still come under budget. Not to mention all the extra connections this one comes with,

The thing that bothers me the most about Apple is that once you make the plunge, you are stuck with them. I've bought PCs from compu-ad, Compaq, HP, Toshiba, and Dell, Emachines, and Gateway over the years. I'm not stuck with one vendor if another comes up with a better deal.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that if I bought an iPod I would be stuck downloading music from iTunes, and if my ipod died or got filled up I would be forced to buy another one or repurchase all of the music from another vendor because your iTunes music won't play on non-apple MP3 players.

Microsoft could come out with a terrabyte MP3 player that runs on gravity waves and cost $50 and people would stick with their iPods because they own thousands of dollars of digital music.

[Seanette]

One thing I've done with iTunes purchases is to burn the tracks to audio CD, then rip to MP3. I like having the versatility of having both formats on hand, and don't like to have all my audio eggs in one proprietary basket. I also import MP3s acquired elsewhere to iTunes and convert to AAC for space usage efficiency.

[elgarak]

The thing that bothers me the most about Apple is that once you make the plunge, you are stuck with them. I've bought PCs from compu-ad, Compaq, HP, Toshiba, and Dell, Emachines, and Gateway over the years. I'm not stuck with one vendor if another comes up with a better deal.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that if I bought an iPod I would be stuck downloading music from iTunes, and if my ipod died or got filled up I would be forced to buy another one or repurchase all of the music from another vendor because your iTunes music won't play on non-apple MP3 players.

Microsoft could come out with a terrabyte MP3 player that runs on gravity waves and cost $50 and people would stick with their iPods because they own thousands of dollars of digital music.
iTunes is in the process of going DRM free. The majority of songs they sell DO play on other players already.

[elgarak]

Well, iPods I'm good with.

It is the Macs, on the other hand, that I dislike.

Nothing wrong with the software. I would really like to get Garageband.

But Mac prices are ridiculous. Now, I am not someone looking for a dual core Pentium eMachine from Wallmart, but Macs are ******* horrible price wise.

Sure, the mini and the iMac look cool, but I can buy a computer better than the iMac for the price of the mini plus change. And their education discount is of no help.

If Apple was in any way competitive in pricing, I would go with it. But I don't think the premium is justified:

iMac:
2.66 GHz Core 2 Duo
2 GB RAM
320GB HDD
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics
$1,199.00

Linky. (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/imac?mco=MTE2NjM)

HP:
2.33GHZ Core 2 Quad
8 GB RAM
750GB HDD
NVIDIA GeForce 9500 GS 512MB Memory
$939.99

Linky. (http://www.compusa.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4375463&csid=ITD&body=MAIN#detailspecs)

And with the spare I can buy this (http://www.compusa.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4420150&CatId=12) screen that is 1080p and 22" and still come under budget. Not to mention all the extra connections this one comes with,
Better for whom? The iMac is a all-in-one that takes up only the space of the (flat-panel) monitor; the HP is a 'traditional' tower. For a lot of people that's a good reason to get the iMac. And of course an all-in-one is more expensive -- Apple had to custom-design everything from motherboard to drive mounts that HP 'just' had to plug together.

And even if some specs are comparable, it's not necessarily guaranteed that the computer performs better in everyday applications; one of our students had a Toshiba notebook with about the same specs as my MacBook -- same RAM of 2 GB, faster processor -- running Vista like molasses, while my MacBook ran Vista with acceptable speed (Mac OS X still blew it away in responsiveness running about the equivalent programs like email, Skype, instant messaging, browser, Word).

[mikeyx]

Ah, then I misread the OP. Well, I guess then you're simply not an "Apple" person.
Years of exposure to Microsoft products can do that to even the most hopeful :p

No, seriously: Pick what you're happy with. I've got a PC for coding for PC clients, some Macs for "all the rest". A few people I know switched to Mac rather painlessly. Others didn't.

That's life. Can't cure them all :)

Uh, people don't take my pondering all that seriously, do they? :rolleyes:

L is for linux, runs on both platforms, ;)

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Better for whom? The iMac is a all-in-one that takes up only the space of the (flat-panel) monitor; the HP is a 'traditional' tower. For a lot of people that's a good reason to get the iMac. And of course an all-in-one is more expensive -- Apple had to custom-design everything from motherboard to drive mounts that HP 'just' had to plug together.

But you see, that is the problem. For some reason Apple decides that people who don't want to spend $2,500 on a computer must want something, dare I say, crippled just for looks or because it is small. Sure, it has a coolness factor. But 90% of the time it has no functionality for the user and takes away because it uses laptop hardware and minimizes the number of connections. iMacs are particularly offensive because the screen and the computer are tied, if you need to upgrade one you also have to buy the other.

And even if some specs are comparable, it's not necessarily guaranteed that the computer performs better in everyday applications; one of our students had a Toshiba notebook with about the same specs as my MacBook -- same RAM of 2 GB, faster processor -- running Vista like molasses, while my MacBook ran Vista with acceptable speed (Mac OS X still blew it away in responsiveness running about the equivalent programs like email, Skype, instant messaging, browser, Word).

Yes, I agree that their laptops tend to be better, but you'd have a hard time selling me on 2 v 8 GB RAM and 2 v 4 core processor.

Also, Linux FTW :p !

[GreNME]

If Apple was in any way competitive in pricing, I would go with it. But I don't think the premium is justified:

iMac:
2.66 GHz Core 2 Duo
2 GB RAM
320GB HDD
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics
$1,199.00

Linky. (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/imac?mco=MTE2NjM)

HP:
2.33GHZ Core 2 Quad
8 GB RAM
750GB HDD
NVIDIA GeForce 9500 GS 512MB Memory
$939.99

Linky. (http://www.compusa.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4375463&csid=ITD&body=MAIN#detailspecs)

And with the spare I can buy this (http://www.compusa.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4420150&CatId=12) screen that is 1080p and 22" and still come under budget. Not to mention all the extra connections this one comes with,

Well, I'm not comparing, but if you want a Mac without the premium you can go for the refurbs (http://www.mac-resource.com/store) out there. If you want to beat those specs for the PC, I suggest this store (http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/) as a good place to start.

[elgarak]

But you see, that is the problem. For some reason Apple decides that people who don't want to spend $2,500 on a computer must want something, dare I say, crippled just for looks or because it is small. Sure, it has a coolness factor. But 90% of the time it has no functionality for the user and takes away because it uses laptop hardware and minimizes the number of connections. iMacs are particularly offensive because the screen and the computer are tied, if you need to upgrade one you also have to buy the other.
How is that a problem for you? Apple does not make computers for you. That's their problem, not yours, since they do not get you as a customer.

Regarding the upgradability of PeeCees: I call this an empty freedom. Because most of the time people simply exchange pieces, and the new pieces will fulfill the same tasks as before most of the time. It's just that you now can run the newest game, or get a little faster performance. They are very few pieces that are actually worthy of upgrades for all people -- and those you can upgrade on a Mac (RAM and harddrives mostly). For all the other things, Apple puts in a reasonable top-of-the-line component in there when they release a new model (and make sure that their software will support this component to the best of the components ability. Doesn't happen all the time in the Windows world), which then will last for a long time for each user. Until it's time to upgrade so much that it's worth to get a whole new machine.

It's a different philosophy, and if you don't agree with it, or are doing stuff that disagrees with it, you're simply losing out as a customer for Apple. That's not a reason to diss them.

[Wudang]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that if I bought an iPod I would be stuck downloading music from iTunes, and if my ipod died or got filled up I would be forced to buy another one or repurchase all of the music from another vendor because your iTunes music won't play on non-apple MP3 players.


Corrected. I don't use iTunes at all for my ipod. I have lots of CDs, Exact Audio Copy to rip them to mp3, and Winamp configured to talk to my iPod. So I have crystal clear mp3s on a quite clever mp3 player which is an iPod.
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/steal_this_comic.png

[theMark]

Corrected. I don't use iTunes at all for my ipod. I have lots of CDs, Exact Audio Copy to rip them to mp3, and Winamp configured to talk to my iPod. So I have crystal clear mp3s on a quite clever mp3 player which is an iPod.


This is an interesting workflow.

I have lots of CD, too, but I simply used what came with my computer (Mac, admittedly). Around 2000/2001, I popped my collection into the CD drive one after the other, pressed "Yes" / "Don't ask again" once at the "Do you want to import this CD into iTunes" prompt, and I got all of them converted into MP3's, including title/album/artist info via iTunes' built-in CDDB client.

I've been listening to music ever since :)
My first iPod came *much* later. Hooked it up, "use this iPod with this computer Y/N", done.

Well, I kept the "encode as..." setting at MP3 and skipped/ignored AAC, simply because my previous car stereo was MP3 only, and AAC didn't offer much/any advantage over MP3 in terms of sound quality. These days, I have my "old" iPod mounted in a dock/cradle thing in my car, and it's even more convenient.
I prefer buying "real" CD's, but I bought some iTunes downloads, too (less than a dozen albums, I'd say). I always burned them to AudioCD as a backup - I consider the "locked" AAC's as nothing more than a "shipping wrapper". If you don't ... your loss.
With the death of DRM and Apple's switch to "unprotected" AAC as the default, it's as easy as 1) telling iTunes to prefer MP3 compression from now on, 2) select the bought AAC's and 3) use right-click or the menu item to "Convert selection to MP3".
Keeps the (bought) AAC's and adds MP3 versions, including cover art JPEG's and all the song info.

I haven't found a reason to switch to a different "workflow" (and I like iTunes, it just works for me), but hey, whatever floats your boat...

[Seanette]

Well, I kept the "encode as..." setting at MP3 and skipped/ignored AAC, simply because my previous car stereo was MP3 only, and AAC didn't offer much/any advantage over MP3 in terms of sound quality.

I switch stuff to AAC before I load it onto the iPod, because I get the same sound quality for less storage space used. Still do make sure I also have everything in MP3 against such possibilities as changing players.

[BenBurch]

Even iTunes will rip CDs for you into non-DRM files.

[Harpyja]

I can run XP on my mac at the same time as everything else with Parallels Desktop. I routinely play Microsoft Train Simulator that way, and this isn't even all that fast a machine.

Ah, my boyfriend has that. A little Apple laptop with Windows 7 Beta and the latest Mac OS. You have to partition your hard drive, but I don't imagine he's had any problems with it. He's not much of a PC gamer anyway.

[Zim]

I'm apple phobic, I have post traumatic apple math syndrome from school, green text screen, dot matrix printers, BEEP-BUZZ-WHIRRRR-CLICK-FART-BURP! almost as frightening as the dial up ditty of chirps and static buzzing, hehe:D

[Crundy]

I used to use iTunes to buy my music and use a small app that removed the DRM from them so I could play them on my car MP3 player. Then they blocked the app and so I had to bur to disk and then rip, which got too annoying after a while. So now I buy all my stuff from 7digital. DRM free.

[ponderingturtle]

iPhone plus the Null River "Tuner" app and you got all the radio you'll ever need...

You are then dependant on those systems being up. Basic radio is very useful in an emergency situation.

[ponderingturtle]

the final complaint was mouse technology. My original computer was a 286 clone with a monochrome 12 inch screen. Apple came up with this great new idea of the mouse,

Technicaly they stole it from Zerox.

[BenBurch]

You are then dependant on those systems being up. Basic radio is very useful in an emergency situation.

Cellular seems to be very reliable in emergencies. Plus most FM stations of which I am aware seem to not be very good sources of emergency information as there are no human beings at the station - All automation. Only things like the news/talk AM stations have real humans to alert you in emergencies, and the Zune can't get those for you, though the "Tuner" app can.

If you are really, worried, however, a wind-up AM/FM/Shortwave radio is a good thing to have. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00069J6CI?ie=UTF8&tag=thewhiteroses-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B00069J6CI)

[BenBurch]

Technicaly they stole it from Zerox.

Actually, the mouse pre-dates Xerox PARC's system.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnumber=3541541

[gdnp]

Actually, the mouse pre-dates Xerox PARC's system.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnumber=3541541

Both mouse comments noted, but Apple was the company that brought the mouse to the consumer market.

[TheDaver]

I love my iPod. The only gripe I have with it is that Quicktime is buggy and steals file associations from other programs every time I touch it, and iTunes now requires Quicktime to run at all.

[Damien Evans]

Well, you know, they probably can.

I can run XP on my mac at the same time as everything else with Parallels Desktop. I routinely play Microsoft Train Simulator that way, and this isn't even all that fast a machine.

I can even have Linux, XP and OSX going at the same time.

Get a Mac Pro with a quad core and 8GB RAM and you'll be playing the fastest Windows games.

Oh, I know I could put windows on it and play them fine, I'm talking about being able to play them on a mac straight out of the box like I can with a windows PC.


As an aside, I don't know why anyone would get an Ipod when you can get this: http://www.cnet.com.au/mp3players/portablevideo/0,239029171,339286408,00.htm

[Damien Evans]

To be fair, no. There's the whole fun (ahem) of parsing endless lists of minute tech specs to find the One True Graphics Card whose 0.5 frames per second advantage over all the Many False Graphics Cards will render you a god among men, come to spank them all in deathmatch in the dystopian concrete caves of (name of popular first-person-shooter withheld).*
Plus, given the right active cooling with highly volatile liquids, the off-the-shelf CPUs in Apple's booooring designer cases hold no candle to an overclocked, hand-tuned silicon heart racing inside the abomination of plastic, PU foam, glowing lights, whirling fans (with separately illuminated blades) and menacing skull-molded screws holding laser-cut windows in place to offer a glimpse into the glowing and glowering cable entrails of a True Modern Gamer PC.

Did I miss a cliché? :duck:

Sad thing is, I know these kind of folks. Yes, they're nice, but "Aw MAN! Don't touch that knob! The RPM of the fans was PERFECT!" :D


*) The frame rate of the attached flat panel is fixed at 60 Hertz, but "134 Hz TOTALLY makes a different, I tell you! 132 Hz is SOOO last week! WILL YOU LOOK AT THAT BENCHMARK?!"

HA!

I'm glad that's not me.:)

[El Greco]

Ok, I can't be bothered to read two pages. Can someone please fill me in ? Have we reached a conclusion on why Apple products suck ?

[applecorped]

You are entirely right. Apple products - iPhone, iPods, iMacs, etc. - take way too many brains to operate. You have to apply way too much energy to understanding how the technology works rather than just being able to open the box and say, "Earl Grey, hot." the way it should be.

The problem is that these sucky Apple products are only outsucked by - every other computer product available. They are the worst technology you can buy except for everything else.


Here here!!

[Seanette]

As an aside, I don't know why anyone would get an Ipod when you can get this: http://www.cnet.com.au/mp3players/portablevideo/0,239029171,339286408,00.htm

For one thing, my vision does not allow attempting to watch video on that small a screen.

For another, a hard drive-based unit would not survive my clumsiness, which is why I went with the flash-based Nano and will stick with flash-based personal audio devices. I don't want to have to replace the thing probably every year or two due to breakage, and flash-based units, per several sources I consulted, are much more durable, thus a better bet for someone with a talent for dropping fragile objects or knocking them off wherever they've been put.

[Damien Evans]

For one thing, my vision does not allow attempting to watch video on that small a screen.

For another, a hard drive-based unit would not survive my clumsiness, which is why I went with the flash-based Nano and will stick with flash-based personal audio devices. I don't want to have to replace the thing probably every year or two due to breakage, and flash-based units, per several sources I consulted, are much more durable, thus a better bet for someone with a talent for dropping fragile objects or knocking them off wherever they've been put.

That "small" screen is twice the size of the Ipods. Also, the same company makes many flash drive based devices, all of which have good audio quality, something the Ipod is absolutely horrible at.

[Seanette]

I don't try to watch video on my iPod either, and sound quality is greatly influenced by your earphones. I concede the ones that come with the iPod are not great for sound (I also find they don't fit my ears very well), but with the earphones I bought at Fry's, sound quality is fine for my needs.

[HarryKeogh]

Ok, I can't be bothered to read two pages. Can someone please fill me in ? Have we reached a conclusion on why Apple products suck ?

They're made by the same company that produces Dollhouse.

[brodski]

The problem is that these sucky Apple products are only outsucked by - every other computer product available. They are the worst technology you can buy except for everything else.

So your position is that Apple product's don't suck, it just appears like that to some people 'cos everything else blows?

[Tsukasa Buddha]

As an aside, I don't know why anyone would get an Ipod when you can get this: http://www.cnet.com.au/mp3players/portablevideo/0,239029171,339286408,00.htm

Well, the interface sucks for one thing. And the touch has all the apps.

[Damien Evans]

I don't try to watch video on my iPod either, and sound quality is greatly influenced by your earphones. I concede the ones that come with the iPod are not great for sound (I also find they don't fit my ears very well), but with the earphones I bought at Fry's, sound quality is fine for my needs.

You're right as far as you go, but a good player with good headphones will still sound much better than a poor player with good headphones.

Just to satisfy my curiosity, I decided to do a detailed comparison of the audio quality of both my Cowon A3 and an Ipod Touch.

The specs from my A3 are found here: http://www.cowonglobal.com/

You'll notice a far more detailed package as far as codec support goes, plus excellent signal to noise ratio and headphone output, as well as an excellent sound card.

The Ipod stats: http://www.apple.com/au/ipodtouch/specs.html

You'll notice all it lists is frequency and its very limited range of codecs.

Gee, thanks Apple. Really lets us know about your product.:rolleyes:

[WildCat]

As an aside, I don't know why anyone would get an Ipod when you can get this: http://www.cnet.com.au/mp3players/portablevideo/0,239029171,339286408,00.htm
Maybe this is the reason: AU$589.00

:shocked:

eta: and this: "There's also no support for gapless playback." A deal breaker for me at any price, since I mostly listen to live recordings.

[erlando]

As an aside, I don't know why anyone would get an Ipod when you can get this: http://www.cnet.com.au/mp3players/portablevideo/0,239029171,339286408,00.htm

Because the iPod isn't ugly?

[Damien Evans]

Because the iPod isn't ugly?

And that, right there, is the problem.


Why does anyone care at all what it looks like? You should be caring about what it does, and how well it does it.

[Damien Evans]

Maybe this is the reason: AU$589.00

:shocked:

eta: and this: "There's also no support for gapless playback." A deal breaker for me at any price, since I mostly listen to live recordings.

Same price as the 32 GB Ipod touch. Everything's more expensive over here.


the lack of gapless is an annoyance, I'll grant you that, but for me only a minor one.

[jeremyp]

Maybe this is the reason: AU$589.00
That's about $400 (US) which means it's almost exactly the same price as a 32Gb iPod Touch.

[jeremyp]

Why does anyone care at all what it looks like? You should be caring about what it does, and how well it does it.
For most people, me included, there is a law of diminishing returns. I have an iPod Touch and as far as I'm concerned its sound quality is more than adequate, especially in the environments where I'm normally using it (e.g. on trains, in aeroplanes etc). Picture quality is good enough considering the size of the screen and a bigger screen would compromise portability (i.e. it wouldn't go in my pocket).

Given the above, ease of use and looks become more important. As far as I know, for ease of use, iPod Touch is the best there is, especially considering how easily it integrates with iTunes and the iTunes Music Store.

[Damien Evans]

That's about $400 (US) which means it's almost exactly the same price as a 32Gb iPod Touch.

I swear there's an echo in here.:)

[Damien Evans]

For most people, me included, there is a law of diminishing returns. I have an iPod Touch and as far as I'm concerned its sound quality is more than adequate, especially in the environments where I'm normally using it (e.g. on trains, in aeroplanes etc). Picture quality is good enough considering the size of the screen and a bigger screen would compromise portability (i.e. it wouldn't go in my pocket).

Given the above, ease of use and looks become more important. As far as I know, for ease of use, iPod Touch is the best there is, especially considering how easily it integrates with iTunes and the iTunes Music Store.

Ease of use I'll give you, but I still don't see why looks are important. Size yes, but not looks, unless you're talking about the actual picture quality.

Also, god I hate Itunes.

Somehow I ripped some albums onto my computer a couple of months ago and Itunes would only play the first half of some of them.:boggled: So off to Winamp it was.

[HarryKeogh]

And that, right there, is the problem.


Why does anyone care at all what it looks like? You should be caring about what it does, and how well it does it.

Whether it's a car, countertop in their kitchen (man, that granite is expensive! And all you're doing is putting things on it!) or an MP3 player most people will always care about how their stuff looks in addition to its functionality.

[Damien Evans]

Whether it's a car, countertop in their kitchen (man, that granite is expensive! And all you're doing is putting things on it!) or an MP3 player most people will always care about how their stuff looks in addition to its functionality.

I know. It doesn't make any sense to me.

[El Greco]

countertop in their kitchen (man, that granite is expensive! And all you're doing is putting things on it!)

Ok, that was sexist

[Seanette]

Ok, that was sexist

:confused: . I didn't see any gender pronouns in the discussion of kitchen counters, and am acquainted with people of both sexes who take at least some interest in such matters.

You were kidding, right?

[HarryKeogh]

:confused: . I didn't see any gender pronouns in the discussion of kitchen counters, and am acquainted with people of both sexes who take at least some interest in such matters.

You were kidding, right?

He most certainly wasn't. El Greco is a sexist monster as are all Greek men.

Wait. Was I sexist and racist just now?

[El Greco]

Ok, that was a little deep. I assumed that he uses the countertop for sex, among other things. Like all normal people do, you know. So, in that light, referring to his woman as a "thing" was certainly sexist.

Yeah, I'm deep like that :D

[TheDaver]

For one thing, my vision does not allow attempting to watch video on that small a screen.

For another, a hard drive-based unit would not survive my clumsiness, which is why I went with the flash-based Nano and will stick with flash-based personal audio devices. I don't want to have to replace the thing probably every year or two due to breakage, and flash-based units, per several sources I consulted, are much more durable, thus a better bet for someone with a talent for dropping fragile objects or knocking them off wherever they've been put.
And that Cowon is twice the price of an iPod and doesn’t offer much to justify it.

That "small" screen is twice the size of the Ipods. Also, the same company makes many flash drive based devices, all of which have good audio quality, something the Ipod is absolutely horrible at.
That’s only what people who hate iPods say. It was true maybe 5 years ago, but not now.

[Damien Evans]

And that Cowon is twice the price of an iPod and doesn’t offer much to justify it.


That’s only what people who hate iPods say. It was true maybe 5 years ago, but not now.

Firstly, how does the exact same price equal twice the price?

Second, have you listened to an Ipod lately? The sound is very average.


Also, doesn't offer much to justify it? Did you even look at it?

[TheDaver]

Firstly, how does the exact same price equal twice the price?
iPod Classic is $250, smart guy.

Second, have you listened to an Ipod lately? The sound is very average.
I have an iPod Video and I’m more than happy with the sound. Guys at HydrogenAudio.org (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/) with better headphones and ears than me are also very satisfied with it.

Also, doesn't offer much to justify it? Did you even look at it?
Yes.

Why, are any of the features it has that the iPod doesn’t actually important to you?

Look, I understand how much fun it is to trash the iPod. About 4 years ago we would have been in the same crowd. But even as I was still doing it, I began to realize that I didn’t give half a crap about the features I was bashing the iPod for not having.

[BenBurch]

If you want to listen to an iPod and judge its sound, please make sure you use a great recording and great headphones, otherwise you are just listening to the artifacts of the compression process and the limitations of the headphones.

I *will* say that the little ear buds they supply are only OK. But like the "batteries included" with some new toy, they are only in there for out-of-the-box convenience.

[fullflavormenthol]

I have no complaints with any ipod product I have owned. I have been really happy with them from the 1st gen nano to the 2nd Gen Shuffle to the iPhone 3G. And no I wasn't one of those people that rushed to the iPhone craze. I originally owned a Samsung Blackjack and Windows Mobile was the worst experience of my life, and truth be told the iPhone 3G was cheaper than buying the another Blackjack and had more memory and better features.

Then again I also use a Mac for most of my non-3D computing. It is all a matter of preference, but the truth is that all things suck to those who don't like them.

[Darat]

...snip...

I *will* say that the little ear buds they supply are only OK. But like the "batteries included" with some new toy, they are only in there for out-of-the-box convenience.

And here I was thinking I was buying them!

Also remember for the new nanowotist you'll have to use the provided headphone.

[Damien Evans]

iPod Classic is $250, smart guy.


I have an iPod Video and I’m more than happy with the sound. Guys at HydrogenAudio.org (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/) with better headphones and ears than me are also very satisfied with it.


Yes.

Why, are any of the features it has that the iPod doesn’t actually important to you?

Look, I understand how much fun it is to trash the iPod. About 4 years ago we would have been in the same crowd. But even as I was still doing it, I began to realize that I didn’t give half a crap about the features I was bashing the iPod for not having.

Wow.

Really, the mind boggles to think that you think I could be comparing it to a classic when I compared it directly to the Ipod Touch about 5 posts before you. That's really special, that is.

For a start, every Ipod of any type I've ever listened to has actually caused my ears pain, which admittedly is more the fault of the earphones than the player, but once I've tried them with decent headphones I've still been rather underwhelmed with the audio quality, there's just a certain fuzziness about the sound (not exclusive to Ipods I might add, my dads Sony player for one sounds similar) that just annoys me, almost like it's tried to smooth it out when it shouldn't have.

Most of the features that Ipods lack that I want are to be found in the codecs. Most of my music is FLAC, I like it that way and I don't want to have to convert it just so I can play it portably. The excellent video quality for a PMP was a welcome bonus, particularly the relatively high resolution.

Ipods are far from the only players I don't like, they're just the most common one.


ETA: ok, so it was more like 15 posts above.

[Damien Evans]

Interesting, that's also a very strange definition of $250 TheDaver has: http://store.apple.com/au/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/ipod_classic?cid=AOS-AP-AU-Google-AA0000018642

Who knew that $339=$250?

[dtugg]

Interesting, that's also a very strange definition of $250 TheDaver has: http://store.apple.com/au/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/ipod_classic?cid=AOS-AP-AU-Google-AA0000018642

Who knew that $339=$250?

It's 250 USD.

[Damien Evans]

It's 250 USD.

Which would also be stupid, since we were talking about costs in Australian dollars before anyway.

[dtugg]

Which would also be stupid, since we were talking about costs in Australian dollars before anyway.

I wasn't involved in the conversation but I see Australian dollars and US dollars each mentioned exactly the same amount of times (once). I may be an American but I think it is completely reasonably to assume that $ means USD unless otherwise shown considering the amount of people in the US vs that of any other country that uses dollars and the fact that the USD is the most widely held currency in the world.

[HarryKeogh]

For a start, every Ipod of any type I've ever listened to has actually caused my ears pain, which admittedly is more the fault of the earphones than the player, but once I've tried them with decent headphones I've still been rather underwhelmed with the audio quality, there's just a certain fuzziness about the sound (not exclusive to Ipods I might add, my dads Sony player for one sounds similar) that just annoys me, almost like it's tried to smooth it out when it shouldn't have.

I wonder if we did a blind test with different MP3 players and the same, high-quality headphones if you would be able to tell the difference between iPods and your favorite MP3 players.

Not saying you can't it's just that your description of the sound reminds me of the nonsense I've heard in the audio equipment rags.

[El Greco]

Is there any amplifying in such mp3 players ? Do they do anything more than simply decoding the mp3s ? And if not, doesn't this mean they should all perform the same ?

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Is there any amplifying in such mp3 players ? Do they do anything more than simply decoding the mp3s ? And if not, doesn't this mean they should all perform the same ?

Allegedly there is supposed to be a difference...

Yeah, I've never really noticed :p .

[TheDaver]

Wow.

Really, the mind boggles to think that you think I could be comparing it to a classic when I compared it directly to the Ipod Touch about 5 posts before you. That's really special, that is.
No, your comparison is invalid, which is why I made my own.

The iAudio uses a notebook hard drive. The Touch uses flash memory. The cost-per-unit-storage difference between the two technologies is so big that it just renders your comparison flat-out ridiculous.

For a start, every Ipod of any type I've ever listened to has actually caused my ears pain, which admittedly is more the fault of the earphones than the player, but once I've tried them with decent headphones I've still been rather underwhelmed with the audio quality, there's just a certain fuzziness about the sound (not exclusive to Ipods I might add, my dads Sony player for one sounds similar) that just annoys me, almost like it's tried to smooth it out when it shouldn't have.
And how do you know that the iPod was to blame, and not the settings used when the MP3s were created? How do even you know it wasn’t just in your head?

Most of the features that Ipods lack that I want are to be found in the codecs. Most of my music is FLAC, I like it that way and I don't want to have to convert it just so I can play it portably.
If that’s your reason, then great, the iAudio is much better suited for you than the iPod. You don’t have to bullcrap anybody to justify your choice.

The excellent video quality for a PMP was a welcome bonus, particularly the relatively high resolution.
I thought it was great to watch video on my iPod too, but the truth is, you just don’t watch much if any video on-the-run. It’s a novelty that wears off fast.

[Damien Evans]

I wonder if we did a blind test with different MP3 players and the same, high-quality headphones if you would be able to tell the difference between iPods and your favorite MP3 players.

Not saying you can't it's just that your description of the sound reminds me of the nonsense I've heard in the audio equipment rags.

Well, that's quite possible, but either way I'm happy.

[Damien Evans]

Is there any amplifying in such mp3 players ? Do they do anything more than simply decoding the mp3s ? And if not, doesn't this mean they should all perform the same ?

Yes, such players have amplifiers. The stats on them are a bit tricky to find though, this is the best I could come up with:

Cowon A3