"Army reviews troop use after fatal Ala. shootings"

[ElMondoHummus]

Great... PrisonPlanet and ATS denizens are going to be all over this.

Army reviews troop use after fatal Ala. shootings (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i8CbzUeIBWcQ-VUtTTdTnlgX_oqAD970M3RO0)

The Army said Wednesday it opened an inquiry into whether federal laws were broken when nearly two dozen soldiers were sent to a south Alabama town after 11 people died in a shooting spree last week.

State officials said the deployment of 22 military police officers and the provost marshal from Fort Rucker was requested neither by Republican Gov. Bob Riley nor the White House, which typically is required by law for soldiers to operate on U.S. soil.

The town's mayor and townsfolk didn't seem to mind that it happened:


Samson's tiny police force and county officers were stretched to the limit after the shootings, which left investigators with at least seven different crime scenes to check for evidence.

Samson Mayor Clay King said he did not know why the soldiers showed up in town, but he was glad they did.

"The only function they did was directing traffic. They took drinks and snacks to other people working crime scenes," King said. "I'm proud they were here."

Residents said soldiers from Fort Rucker, a major employer in southeastern Alabama, have a reputation for helping nearby communities in emergencies.


But if the troops weren't acting as police - or heck, if they were just there as private individuals volunteering to help - then that might be something that the Federal Government exempts:


According to a summary by the Congressional Research Service, federal law generally prohibits the armed forces from being used as domestic police. Exceptions include emergencies, when troops can help civilians but don't directly act as police.


So there's an investigation into this, but with just a small amount of digging, it looks to be entirely benign. But, like I said, I predict we'll see an influx of woo-peddlers pointing at this to buttress whatever Government-Is-Dictatorship fantasy they happen to want to argue at the moment.

[Ohnoes]

Oh don't worry! They were all over this yesterday.

http://www.infowars.com/damage-control-us-army-investigates-deploying-troops-in-samson-alabama/

As you said I think it's a small matter, but I'm sure with them it's a national crisis!:rolleyes:

[dudalb]

Hey, It's Alabama. Word about Appotamatox has not reached some people down there and still consider the Federal Government The Enemy.

[Bob Klase]

I agree that PrisonPlanet (and others) are probably making too much of this, but that doesn't mean there's no reason for an investigation.

The town's mayor and townsfolk didn't seem to mind that it happened:

I spent 12 years at Ft. Rucker (between 1971 and 1992). Some of those townsfold wouldn't mind if you were keeping slaves in your garage. That doesn't make it right.

But if the troops weren't acting as police - or heck, if they were just there as private individuals volunteering to help

Since no one seems to know if that's the case, that's exactly why they need an investigation. Doesn't have to be a multi-million dollar affair, just get a few questions answered.

So there's an investigation into this, but with just a small amount of digging, it looks to be entirely benign. But, like I said, I predict we'll see an influx of woo-peddlers pointing at this to buttress whatever Government-Is-Dictatorship fantasy they happen to want to argue at the moment.

Probably right again, but no investigation at all would just give the woo-peddlers more to peddel.

[Thunder]

Its martial law I tell ya!!!

Martial law!!!!

=)

[Bobert]

oh my god we are allllllll going to die!!!!!!11!!!!

[Klimax]

Its martial law I tell ya!!!

Martial law!!!!

=)

Or marital?

[Thunder]

Or marital?

that too....my Czech-Israeli friend.

[JoeyDonuts]

It doesn't look like Posse Comitatus was violated. It came close, but IMHO the unit's CO must have been aware of this possibility. Given the magnitude of the crime it appears that first responders must have been a little overwhelmed. With the Army directing traffic it freed up the police force to tackle the tactical end of the situation. That's a far cry from armed squads storming the place which is what I'm sure it's going to be presented at over in Kooksville.

[ElMondoHummus]

I agree that PrisonPlanet (and others) are probably making too much of this, but that doesn't mean there's no reason for an investigation.



I spent 12 years at Ft. Rucker (between 1971 and 1992). Some of those townsfold wouldn't mind if you were keeping slaves in your garage. That doesn't make it right.



Since no one seems to know if that's the case, that's exactly why they need an investigation. Doesn't have to be a multi-million dollar affair, just get a few questions answered.



Probably right again, but no investigation at all would just give the woo-peddlers more to peddel.

Don't get me wrong; I wasn't trying to say that there shouldn't be any investigation. In fact, I wasn't speaking at all to that point (for the record, I feel one is necessary, regardless of what is already known). Instead, I was trying to point out that this was going to be forwarded by the conspiracy peddlers as validation of their paranoia, and that to do so they'd have to ignore the fact that there is already an investigation underway, initiated within by the Army itself (thus giving lie to the notion that this is some sort of power grab or imposition of martial authority) and that there is a large amount of transparency to the event. Which argues against this being a conspiratorial act.

On top of that, I was also pointing out that the citizenry's reaction further contradicts any notion that this is some sort of power grab; they seemed unconcerned, and if this were really an imposition of martial law, I have trouble accepting that any citizen anywhere would honestly be that phlegmatic about it. Especially if it were in response to something as prosaic as a simple criminal act. I wasn't trying to excuse any potential illegality, but rather to demonstrate that people on the scene didn't view this as any sort of improper imposition of military troops onto their lives.

[sleeplessdwarf]

The towns of Samson and Geneva are less than an hour away from my town, and if they are anywhere close to being shorthanded for a situation like this, I say welcome. If this were to happen here we would absolutely need some type of outside help. If there happened to be more than 5 crime sights we would not have enough police men to cover each sight. I don't think many of the people in this area had a problem with the military. Back when Ivan hit and we had ice and food stations for 2 months, it was the military giving it out. A little further down south in Pensacola they were directing traffic and were armed in both cases. It takes a little getting use to seeing so many guns on the streets where there usually are none, but most I talked to were happy to have the help. I do remember AJ using pics of the Pensacola troops a few times but I never seen any of the doom he predicted.

[Travis]

This is rich:

The deployment of federal troops was not reported by the corporate media with the exception of the photo. If not for Infowars, the alternative media and the blogosphere, the story would have gone unreported and the Army would likely not have launched an investigation.

Also this:

The guy was probably brain washed (I’m still having a hard time believing this, but nothing else makes sense) and maybe the CIA left evidence behind that they had to clear up…Enter the troops. Of course this is pure guessing on my part.

Then there is this:

They’re going to be using any excuse now to place troops on the streets of America in an incremental tiptoe type fashion to acclimate the public to accepting that reality. Who made the decision? They should be on trial for violation of Posse Comitatus and imprisoned for two years like the law states. That little town should be furious and calling out the military for treason. Pretty soon they will be deploying the military to get a cat out of a tree, right before they turn their automatic rifles on the American people. *********** traitors need to take off their *********** stupid berets and get the **** off our streets.

Then there is this shocking revelation:

Toma, they repealed Posse Comitatus a couple of months ago.
Either it was repealed or they amended some law that made it possible for troops to police here.

Finally there is this completely level headed and peaceful idea:

If, Americans are charged by the Constitution, to protect it,(the constitution), with force if so necessary. IF the armed forces are called out against americans, in ANY capacity, isnt that war? Dont the masses have the duty to repel them? If a war machine is in our public streets, illegeally, dressed as police, isnt that grounds for firing first? The physical threat to the Constitution? hello???

[JoeyDonuts]

Finally there is this completely level headed and peaceful idea:

Good heavens. I can see it now. Small squad of 17-21 year old poorly armed young men shot dead in the street after firing on National Guard troopers responding to a natural disaster.

InfoWars will then put their pictures up, "In Memoriam" style.

[Travis]

Good heavens. I can see it now. Small squad of 17-21 year old poorly armed young men shot dead in the street after firing on National Guard troopers responding to a natural disaster.

InfoWars will then put their pictures up, "In Memoriam" style.

Martial law is necessary in certain situations. What I fear is a scenario like what you just postulated when that time invariably comes. Note the poster perceived the soldiers as being "against Americans" like they made the civilians their enemy by directing traffic.

[JoeyDonuts]

Martial law is necessary in certain situations. What I fear is a scenario like what you just postulated when that time invariably comes. Note the poster perceived the soldiers as being "against Americans" like they made the civilians their enemy by directing traffic.

Never mind the fact that if Posse Comitatus was ever actually suspended in a time of ****-hitting-the-fan, the first responders from the Big Green Machine will most likely be National Guard and reservists from area armories and reserve centers.

In other words, LOCALS. It's not going to be like faceless shocktroopers falling out of the sky geared up like HALO Spartans. It's gonna be Joe and Tommy from down at the bar geared up with weapons, securing public utilities, passing out food and water and medicine.

Well, I tell ya what boys and girls. White Supremacist groups are better armed and organized than any ragtag cluster-screw of scared Internet kiddies could ever dream of being - and they're not even dumb enough to try to take on the U.S. Army. Oh sure, they talk about it all day and night on the StormFront boards, or having weekly Tom Metzger/Turner Diaries wankfests. And even though there is some overlap between white supremacist World Church of the Creator wackos and your tinfoil-hat crowd, I don't think you'd find a single one who could line up a U.S. Soldier in their sights and pull the trigger.

And that's a fact, Jack![/billmurray]

[ElMondoHummus]

... I don't think you'd find a single one who could line up a U.S. Soldier in their sights and pull the trigger.

Oh, I think you can find plenty. It's just that I don't see a soldier returning fire on an idiot just for drenching him with a supersoaker.

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=157&pictureid=779

[dudalb]

Not to mention the widespread misunderstanding of the Posse Comitatus act. It does not forbid using the Army in Law Enforcement, it just imposes, quite properly, that it should be done only in extreme circumstances and preferably at the request of the local authorities,and pretty much says that in such situations the local authorities will call the shots.

[fuelair]

Good heavens. I can see it now. Small squad of 17-21 year old poorly armed young men shot dead in the street after firing on National Guard troopers responding to a natural disaster.

InfoWars will then put their pictures up, "In Memoriam" style.And I will laugh.:D

[fuelair]

Oh, I think you can find plenty. It's just that I don't see a soldier returning fire on an idiot just for drenching him with a supersoaker.

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=157&pictureid=779

But I could see them pounding his dumb butt into the ground a foot or two.

[hamelekim]

Death by degrees is still death. They are slowly chipping away at the laws that Americans used to hold sacrosanct.

It is against the law, several actually, to use standing military for police purposes. It doesn't matter if they were armed, or if the people wanted it. It's illegal for a good reason, go all the way back to Rome and you will understand why they didn't want this sort of thing.

What's the point in having laws if you don't follow them?

[dudalb]

Death by degrees is still death. They are slowly chipping away at the laws that Americans used to hold sacrosanct.

It is against the law, several actually, to use standing military for police purposes. It doesn't matter if they were armed, or if the people wanted it. It's illegal for a good reason, go all the way back to Rome and you will understand why they didn't want this sort of thing.

What's the point in having laws if you don't follow them?

No it NOT against the law in an absolute"never,never,never" way to use standing Military for police purposes under any circumstance. The POsse law just put severe limtations on doing so.
And after the passing of the Posse law, I can point to several examples of the Standing Military being used in emergencies for police purposes. Although many questioned the need and the wisdom of doing so, almost nobody questioned the legality of it.
Where do you pick up this crap, and why are you so anxious to display your ignorance?

Might shock you know that one standing military service, the Coast Guard, enforces civil maritime law on a day to day basis. Granted, the Coasties are under Homeland Security rather then defense (except in time of war or whan CG units are assigned to a military mission) and before that Trasportation and Treasury, but they are governed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which makes them standing Military.

[ElMondoHummus]

But I could see them pounding his dumb butt into the ground a foot or two.

And then posting the result on YouTube. :D

[Bob Klase]

Might shock you know that one standing military service, the Coast Guard, enforces civil maritime law on a day to day basis.

And I'm pretty sure the Coast Guard is not bound by (at least parts of) the Posse Comitatus Act .

http://www.dojgov.net/posse_comitatus_act.htm

10 U.S.C. (United States Code) 375

Sec. 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel:

The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.

That's a quote from the actual law. Also, from that site (although a sidebar and not written in the law specifically:

The Coast Guard and National Guard troops under the control of state governors are excluded from the act.

According to this site:

http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/Articles/brinkerhoffpossecomitatus.htm

it doesn't apply to the Navy or Marines either:

The Effect of the Posse Comitatus Act

Before speculating on why this act is so misunderstood, it is useful to spell out exactly what the act as it is written does and does not do. The Posse Comitatus Act

* Applies only to the Army, and by extension the Air Force, which was formed out of the Army in 1947.

* Does not apply to the Navy and Marine Corps. However, the Department of Defense has consistently held that the Navy and Marine Corps should behave as if the act applied to them.

* Does not apply to the Coast Guard, which is part of the Department of Transportation and is both an armed force and a law enforcement agency with police powers.

* Does not apply to the National Guard in its role as state troops on state active duty under the command of the respective governors.

But that seems to contradict the first.

[Horatius]

Does directing traffic qualify as:

search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity

?

I'd say, most likely not.

[fezzic]

Title 10 USC deals with the Armed Forces.

Which would then have provisions for how the Armed Forces are to operate.

Title 18 USC deals with crimes and criminal procedure.

Which says what happens when the Army or Airforce violate the provisions of Posse Committas. Even if the Navy and USMC are not covered by these provisions, I would expect that the UCMJ might have something to say about it.

Anybody think that US laws are always consistent? :)

[Travis]

Came across a car accident today and, wouldn't you know, I saw some people, civilians, directing traffic because the cops weren't there yet. I sure hope the real cops arrested them when they showed up.:rolleyes:

[Bob Klase]

Came across a car accident today and, wouldn't you know, I saw some people, civilians, directing traffic because the cops weren't there yet. I sure hope the real cops arrested them when they showed up.:rolleyes:


I think you're lost. This thread is about a law that specifically applies only to military. The thread about laws covering civilians is over there ---->

[dudalb]

or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law. .

So much for the use of Military personal in law enforcement being absoultely forbidden by the Posse Comitatus act. The act was to ensure that this could only happen at the request of Civilian authority, a point forgotten by a lot of people.

[Rogue1stclass]

The towns of Samson and Geneva are less than an hour away from my town, and if they are anywhere close to being shorthanded for a situation like this, I say welcome. If this were to happen here we would absolutely need some type of outside help. If there happened to be more than 5 crime sights we would not have enough police men to cover each sight. I don't think many of the people in this area had a problem with the military. Back when Ivan hit and we had ice and food stations for 2 months, it was the military giving it out. A little further down south in Pensacola they were directing traffic and were armed in both cases. It takes a little getting use to seeing so many guns on the streets where there usually are none, but most I talked to were happy to have the help. I do remember AJ using pics of the Pensacola troops a few times but I never seen
any of the doom he predicted.

For the record, it was National Guard, not Federal troops, directing traffic here in Pensacola.

[JoeyDonuts]

For the record, it was National Guard, not Federal troops, directing traffic here in Pensacola.

I have no problem with that. I have more of a problem with the Fundamentalist Christians and their sandwich signs screaming at people going into McGuire's for a beer.

[Rogue1stclass]

I have no problem with that. I have more of a problem with the Fundamentalist Christians and their sandwich signs screaming at people going into McGuire's for a beer.

Now that I've seen Federal troops try to do something about. You don't get in the way of a Marine and his Irish Red...

[Travis]

I think you're lost. This thread is about a law that specifically applies only to military. The thread about laws covering civilians is over there ---->

Are you saying you feel better about civilians volunteering to direct traffic than a bunch of guys who happen to be in the military?

[Bob Klase]

Are you saying you feel better about civilians volunteering to direct traffic than a bunch of guys who happen to be in the military?


Are you saying that "a bunch of guys who happen to be in the military" has some bearing on a discussion of "a bunch of guys in the military who are ordered to go direct traffic by their command"?