A serious issue: what to tell the kids...

[Jeff Wagg]

I've been an atheist (agnostic, humanist, bright) since I was a wee lad. I firmly believe that I have chosen the best position for me.

But..as much as I would like my kids to come to the same conclusions I have, I don't think it's right for me to indoctrinate them. When they ask if there's a god, I say "Many people believe there is, but I don't. You have to make up your own mind."

I know many religious people who believe it's a parents duty to instruct their children in the way of god or whatever, but I feel it's more important to educate the children to make good choices.

If my kids choose religion, I'll love them just the same, and perhaps we can have some spirited debates.

I'm very curious to see what everyone think of this approach.

[Yahweh]

Dont worry, a much higher pencentage of kids from religious households go atheist than vice versa.

Kids under the age of 10 are really too young to be thinking about "rationalizing their faith", by 12 most kids will have a pretty good idea of what they believe (but in no way will they be able to defend them).

If you are seriously concerned about imposing your beliefs on your kids, I recommend you take the good old religion-neutral approach, dont talk about the subject unless your kids bring it up. If your kids ever ask you "what is god", I think its possible to explain how some people belief in a being(s) which created the universe without deliberately saying "god doesnt exist).

(What if your kid turns into one of them insane Rapture nuts? Would you then feel like you are obligated to "correct" his beliefs then? ... just a question that passed through my head...)

[Jeff Wagg]

Originally posted by Yahweh

(What if your kid turns into one of them insane Rapture nuts? Would you then feel like you are obligated to "correct" his beliefs then? ... just a question that passed through my head...)

Good question. I'll definitely let them know that I disagree with them. I suppose I'll be dissapointed, but hey..it's their life. I didn't give it to them so they could do what I want.

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Jeff Wagg
I'm very curious to see what everyone think of this approach. I think that's by far the best approach.

That's pretty much the approach my parents took with me, and, more than anything else, it made me think for myself about it all, which presumably is the whole point.

Meanwhile, my Dad talked to me about science and stuff; even at a very young age, having some awareness of what the universe is and how it works helped me spot potential bullsh*t coming from people I would otherwise have implicitly trusted.

[Kilted_Canuck]

Teach them about science, and stay religiously neutral. Educate them on a variety of religions equally, make sure they're exposed to more than just Xianity.


Thats what my parents did, and I turned out alright.

[neutrino_cannon]

My parents almost never adressed religion with me. In fact, most of the "big issues" parents are expected to adress, like drinking, sex, drugs etc. were never covered by my parents, and look how I turned out.

Oh. Wait.

I would say deal with the fundamental difference between whatever we call it now (brightism?) and other religions, i.e. no reliance upon faith in unprovable and unnecessary entities.

Critical thinking is probably the more important skill, since it leaves one without need of indoctrination if they can think well enough for themselves. We wouldn't be rationalist materialists if that's not what critical thinking led us to quineg?

And if my kids (Me with kids. Funny/scary thought) became religios, I wouldn't mind. Most religions are harmless, and if they joined a dangerous fundamentalist cult, they were either coierced into it or I brought them up without critical thinking skills, and ergo probably deserve it.

[Keziah Mason]

Why be religously neutral? Would you be neutral about crop circles, alien abductions, magnetic bracelets, or the like?

I wouldn't bring up the subject until the kid asked, but once asked I sure wouldn't be shy about explaining that it's a myth that a lot of people believe.

And then lay off, push the science, and introduce a bunch of other mythology that's clearly labeled mythology.

[a_unique_person]

Of course, one of the reasons Religion was invented was as a way of dealing with death. Hey Presto, you now live forever.

For a young child, facing up to mortality and not having any fairy tales to calm them about heaven can be traumatic.

[Jeff Wagg]

Originally posted by Keziah Mason
Why be religously neutral? Would you be neutral about crop circles, alien abductions, magnetic bracelets, or the like?


I think it's important as skeptics to understand that we can't prove a negative.

"Daddy, are there really aliens visiting us from other planets?"
"Son, I don't think so. It's not impossible, but the distance between us and the nearest planet that could contain what we call life is so great, that it seems very unlikely."

I don't believe we are being visited by aliens (though I wish we were), but I don't think it's right to tell the kids "There are NO aliens."

When I say "I don't think there is a god.." I'm not being religiously neutral, but I am allowing the kids to make their own decision.

I have to say though...it's pretty scary letting the kids think for themselves. The only thing scarier is them not thinking for themselves.

[Jeff Wagg]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Of course, one of the reasons Religion was invented was as a way of dealing with death. Hey Presto, you now live forever.

For a young child, facing up to mortality and not having any fairy tales to calm them about heaven can be traumatic.


This is a very good point. I can't use the old "Well, Grampy is in heaven now.." cop out.

What I have been saying is that no one knows where you go when you die. Personally, I'm assuming we go back where we came from.

I'm not sure that's terribly comforting to a child.

[Keziah Mason]

"Daddy, are there really aliens visiting us from other planets?"
"Son, I don't think so. It's not impossible, but the distance between us and the nearest planet that could contain what we call life is so great, that it seems very unlikely."

I don't believe we are being visited by aliens (though I wish we were), but I don't think it's right to tell the kids "There are NO aliens."

When I say "I don't think there is a god.."

But right there is the difference I'm talking about.

To use your alien example, a better response (IMO of course) to the question of religion would be "Son, I don't think there is a god. It's not impossible, but there is nothing in science that indicates there is one and studies of mythology show that people have a long history of creating gods to make themselves feel better."

There are responses between "There are no gods" and "Well, I don't think there's one."

[Jeff Wagg]

Originally posted by Keziah Mason

But right there is the difference I'm talking about.

To use your alien example, a better response (IMO of course) to the question of religion would be "Son, I don't think there is a god. It's not impossible, but there is nothing in science that indicates there is one and studies of mythology show that people have a long history of creating gods to make themselves feel better."

There are responses between "There are no gods" and "Well, I don't think there's one."


Keziah, I think we're in agreement. And as Neutrino said above, it's critical thinking that's the important thing.

I think there is some debate as to the concept of "religious neutrality." I think when Yahweh (the poster, not the deity) brought up the concept, he was referring to "Don't ask, don't tell." I actually agree with this, because when kids are ready to talk about these things, they'll let you know by asking about them. If they're not asking, they're probably not ready to hear about what I think about religion.

This is not to say that I'm neutral about religion. If my kids ask me what I think about organized religion, I'm going to tell them my opinion and give them some supporting data.

[Sindai]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
For a young child, facing up to mortality and not having any fairy tales to calm them about heaven can be traumatic.

Can be, but hopefully wouldn't. When I was young my parents never mentioned religion at all, even in passing, so whenever I thought about dying I ended up trying to imagine how not existing felt, which caused my poor brain to get stuck.

Then I'd give up, decide I shouldn't worry about it since I wouldn't be there to feel anything anyway, and go to play with my GI Joes. :D

[jimlintott]

I raised my children as atheist right from the start. This means that the question "Is there a god?" is answered "no". I was never wishy washy on this point. I certainly exposed them to religions. I would never keep information from them.

The atheist position is very empowering. We don't defer to god for anything. We don't pray for him to make our life better. We don't blame him for things going bad. The default position for an atheist is that the individual is in control of their own life. That you have to look at yourself first. I feel that there is nothing wrong with indoctrinating your children to this point of view. Religous people don't hesitate to indoctrinate anyone they can.

While I tend to blame individuals and people instead of religion for many of the worlds problems I firmly believe that he world would be a better place without religion. Raising your children as athiest is paving the way to better life for all of us. (Now I'm sounding like a pius atheist.)

My children are teenagers now and this approach has been very succesful. I get feedback from teachers of how they are often taken by my kid's behaviour when it comes to treating their classmates with dignity and respect. I wanted my children to be respectful of others and to have high moral and ethical values. I felt that religion could not provide this. So I purposely raised them to be athiest.

Don't think of it as indoctrination. Think of it as a path of personal empowerment and dignity. We teach them how to use a toilet. They look to us to teach them how to live their lives. Don't let them down.

[A_Feeble_Mind]

Originally posted by Jeff Wagg


I think it's important as skeptics to understand that we can't prove a negative.


It is also important to note that there is no need to try, either; the burden of proof is entirely on the one making the outrageous claim.


"Daddy, are there really aliens visiting us from other planets?"
"Son, I don't think so. It's not impossible, but the distance between us and the nearest planet that could contain what we call life is so great, that it seems very unlikely."

I don't believe we are being visited by aliens (though I wish we were), but I don't think it's right to tell the kids "There are NO aliens."

When I say "I don't think there is a god.." I'm not being religiously neutral, but I am allowing the kids to make their own decision.


What about Santa Claus? Will you say that you don't think there is a Santa, but you cannot be sure? And, everyone's favorite, what about the Invisible Pink Unicorns?


I have to say though...it's pretty scary letting the kids think for themselves. The only thing scarier is them not thinking for themselves.

While I feel it is important to let your kids think for themselves, I agree it is very important to focus on critical thinking. To let them think for themselves does not mean to let them do so without any guidance.

[Jeff Wagg]

Originally posted by jimlintott
I raised my children as atheist right from the start. This means that the question "Is there a god?" is answered "no". I was never wishy washy on this point. I certainly exposed them to religions. I would never keep information from them.

The atheist position is very empowering. We don't defer to god for anything. We don't pray for him to make our life better. We don't blame him for things going bad. The default position for an atheist is that the individual is in control of their own life. That you have to look at yourself first. I feel that there is nothing wrong with indoctrinating your children to this point of view. Religous people don't hesitate to indoctrinate anyone they can.

While I tend to blame individuals and people instead of religion for many of the worlds problems I firmly believe that he world would be a better place without religion. Raising your children as athiest is paving the way to better life for all of us. (Now I'm sounding like a pius atheist.)

My children are teenagers now and this approach has been very succesful. I get feedback from teachers of how they are often taken by my kid's behaviour when it comes to treating their classmates with dignity and respect. I wanted my children to be respectful of others and to have high moral and ethical values. I felt that religion could not provide this. So I purposely raised them to be athiest.

Don't think of it as indoctrination. Think of it as a path of personal empowerment and dignity. We teach them how to use a toilet. They look to us to teach them how to live their lives. Don't let them down.


I don't doubt anything that you're saying, but the scary part is that if you replace the word ATHEIST with CHRISTIAN in your above post, it sounds just like the religious diatribe I'm trying to avoid. Many Christians don't consider themselves religious..they're just following the truth.

Dogma is dogma, no matter where it comes from.

[Jeff Wagg]

Originally posted by A_Feeble_Mind


While I feel it is important to let your kids think for themselves, I agree it is very important to focus on critical thinking. To let them think for themselves does not mean to let them do so without any guidance.

The Santa Claus thing was a challenge. I didn't want to rob the kids of the fun of the Santa tradition, so I referred to it as a "legend" that some people believe. I fully intend to come clean on the whole Santa/Easter bunny thing when I feel the time is right.

Is this approach dishonest? Maybe. But I think it illustrates the valuable life skill of flexibility.

[Ladewig]

Although I have no children, that will not keep me from opinionating.

When you teach your kid how to handle drug pushers, be sure to also tell them how to handle proselytizers. There are children who are raised in "religiously neutral" environments who go away to college and fall in with a religious crowd.

Surely there must be a book on this topic in Promethius or some other skeptic or humanistic publishing house

[Chanileslie]

I raise my kids with my values and part of my values is the lack of belief in fairytales and mythology. I want my kids to think clearly and rationally, and that means to me, living as an atheist and being honest about what I am and my complete disgust with religion.

My kids are well aware that there are people who believe in a god or spiritual thing, and quite frankly as I look at it, they will be shown that side enough from watching TV or spending time with other people, the majority of whom are believers.

I will never treat religion or the belief in supernatural as a credible belief system without verifiable evidence that it exists, and as I have never seen any verifiable evidence then it doesn't exist, and I have raised my kids to evaluate each thing based on the evidence and to make their own choices.

If one of my children found god, would I still love my child deeply and completely? You bet. Heck, if my child turned out to be a mass murderer, I would still love my child deeply and completely. Would I support them in their belief system? No. I would be respectful of it to the extent that I would probably avoid any conversation to do with their religious belief, but if confronted with it, I will state my opinion.

So, basically, I believe one should raise ones child with ones values, and if your child's values vary from yours (and they are not harmful to the child or to others) then let it be, and accept that there are some issues that you will have to agree to disagree upon.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Jeff Wagg


The Santa Claus thing was a challenge. I didn't want to rob the kids of the fun of the Santa tradition, so I referred to it as a "legend" that some people believe. I fully intend to come clean on the whole Santa/Easter bunny thing when I feel the time is right.

Is this approach dishonest? Maybe. But I think it illustrates the valuable life skill of flexibility.

I always had a problem with the Santa/Easter Bunny/Tooth Fairy thing myself, and after a while, I just gave it up. I don't like to lie, and I don't like to lie to my children because if I am allowing them to believe in one fairytale and set of falsehoods, no matter how harmless or fun they maybe, how can I teach my children to look at things objectively. Not only that, but I am a bad liar, so I finally gave up and told the kids the truth. They really didn't seem to care at all. It was all still fun, and we still sign all the gifts we give the kids "Love Santa Claus". :D

[Hexxenhammer]

My family wasn't especially religious, but we went to church and sunday school and stuff. I was also very interested in science. It hit me at a very early age that what they were teaching me in sunday school was fishy because it didn't jibe with what I was reading on my own about science. This started to keep me up at night. I would wake my mom up asking her how long forever was, and why they didn't talk about the big bang in church and on and on...I was about 8, my mom was kinda baffled at her weird child.

I want to avoid this with my new daughter. My wife is religious in a do-good-deeds, golden-rule kinda way and wants to take her to a church that follows that philosophy (but my wife is Catholic and trying to find a way to leave the Catholic church without giving her parents and grandparents heart attacks). So I'm going to make it a point that after she gets home from Sunday school, she gets a "that's a story" lesson from me and maybe a science lesson or another mythology story.

[roger]

Hexxanhammer,

What turned the corner with me was my reading about Native American religions. I have a tiny bit of NA ancestry, and wanted to learn about it. So when I learned that they weren't Christian, and in fact had very divergent beliefs, I asked myself which I should believe. It quickly became apparent to me that both were myths.

My point is that by showing your daughter alternative myths, she'll be much more likely to realize that what she is being taught in sunday school is no more than a myth, too. (which is what it sounds like you are planning on doing)

[jimlintott]

I don't doubt anything that you're saying, but the scary part is that if you replace the word ATHEIST with CHRISTIAN in your above post, it sounds just like the religious diatribe I'm trying to avoid. Many Christians don't consider themselves religious..they're just following the truth.

Dogma is dogma, no matter where it comes from.

Yes, I agree with you. I think this is one of the things that Atheists have personal battles over. We don't like to tell other people what to believe. We are more live and let live. I was actually somewhat uncomfortable with some of the things I said (prompting my pius atheist remark).

When it comes to our children I don't think we should be wishy washy. It probably will make you feel uncomfortable and hypocritical at times but it's your kids. They deserve the best. Think of the children. :D

I fought the same problem when my kids were very young. I still sometimes fight it but I made a decision to go this route and I stuck to it. I believe that both my children and I are better off for it.

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by roger
Hexxanhammer,

What turned the corner with me was my reading about Native American religions. I have a tiny bit of NA ancestry, and wanted to learn about it. So when I learned that they weren't Christian, and in fact had very divergent beliefs, I asked myself which I should believe. It quickly became apparent to me that both were myths.

My point is that by showing your daughter alternative myths, she'll be much more likely to realize that what she is being taught in sunday school is no more than a myth, too. (which is what it sounds like you are planning on doing)

Exactly. Church does David v/s Goliath, I do Perseus and the Medusa...etc...etc...

[A_Feeble_Mind]

Originally posted by Jeff Wagg


The Santa Claus thing was a challenge. I didn't want to rob the kids of the fun of the Santa tradition, so I referred to it as a "legend" that some people believe. I fully intend to come clean on the whole Santa/Easter bunny thing when I feel the time is right.

Is this approach dishonest? Maybe. But I think it illustrates the valuable life skill of flexibility.

Actually, my question was not what you were going to tell your child in the short term about Santa. Rather, I was attempting to make a comparision between God and Santa (and Invisible Pink Unicorns.) The point of my post was to ask the question "Will you encourage your child to remain open to any possibility, no matter how remote, just because there is 'no proof' that it doesn't exist?" For instance, is it really neccessary to consider further speculation on the existance of Santa? Do we really need to consider that there might be some old, fat man in a red suit who gives out presents, even though there is no proof for him?

[Jeff Wagg]

Originally posted by A_Feeble_Mind


Actually, my question was not what you were going to tell your child in the short term about Santa. Rather, I was attempting to make a comparision between God and Santa (and Invisible Pink Unicorns.) The point of my post was to ask the question "Will you encourage your child to remain open to any possibility, no matter how remote, just because there is 'no proof' that it doesn't exist?" For instance, is it really neccessary to consider further speculation on the existance of Santa? Do we really need to consider that there might be some old, fat man in a red suit who gives out presents, even though there is no proof for him?

The short answer is "yes," but I need to temper that with practicality. Santa et al are legendary beings, but they don't affect the way we live to any great concern. Belief in God, in an extrernal morality, matters a very great deal.

So when the kids are older, if they ask if there really is a Santa, I'll say no. Santa is an easily defined thing to refute. If they ask about God, I'll say "I don't think there is a god." God is an amorphous entity whose definition in many cases removes the opportunity for evidence. If I say there's no god, then I'm saying a lot more than I mean.

I'll have to think about this more.

[A_Feeble_Mind]

Originally posted by Jeff Wagg


The short answer is "yes," but I need to temper that with practicality. Santa et al are legendary beings, but they don't affect the way we live to any great concern. Belief in God, in an extrernal morality, matters a very great deal.

So when the kids are older, if they ask if there really is a Santa, I'll say no. Santa is an easily defined thing to refute. If they ask about God, I'll say "I don't think there is a god." God is an amorphous entity whose definition in many cases removes the opportunity for evidence. If I say there's no god, then I'm saying a lot more than I mean.

I'll have to think about this more.

Couldn't Santa affect our behavior? He does have the power to know if you've been naughty or nice and will reward or punish our behavior accordingly.

I know it seems silly to carry on about Santa, and I am not doing so in an attempt to be irritating. Instead, I am questioning whether or not Santa is really any different than the typical Judeo-Christian God.

And, is there really any proof for ANY type of god? Unless you take a bizarre view and claim that god is a non-sentient object (like the earth, which obviously exists), why should your discussions with your child need to allow for some remote possibility for which NO evidence even hints at?

[uruk]

My mother raised me a catholic. I was even was an alterboy ( no shenanigans were committed upon my person, as far as I know)

But ironically, my mother also raised us to be critical thinkers. How she handled the contradictions I'll never know. She never lied to us about Santa Clause or the easter bunny. When I had my disllusionment with religion and left the church, she made no fuss or effort to reconvert me. My mother is very well versed in
theology and catholic history and we have many a lively debate concerning catholisim and religion in general.

I think your children will do just fine if you teach them to use thier
head. Next time your child askes you about god, santa claus, or the two party political system, ask them what they think about it first and go from there.

[Jeff Wagg]

Originally posted by A_Feeble_Mind


And, is there really any proof for ANY type of god? Unless you take a bizarre view and claim that god is a non-sentient object (like the earth, which obviously exists), why should your discussions with your child need to allow for some remote possibility for which NO evidence even hints at?

Well, the answer is that it's because MOST people believe there is a God. This is nothing to sneeze at...my kids have to live in a society with these people, and he needs to seriously consider whether or not there's a God. If he decides there isn't, he has to understand the ramifications of that decision. These factors do not apply to Santa, although I do agree that Santa is very much like God-lite.

The value of being right may not be equal to the value of getting along with your neighbors.

[Jeff Wagg]

Originally posted by uruk
My mother raised me a catholic. I was even was an alterboy ( no shenanigans were committed upon my person, as far as I know)

But ironically, my mother also raised us to be critical thinkers. How she handled the contradictions I'll never know. She never lied to us about Santa Clause or the easter bunny. When I had my disllusionment with religion and left the church, she made no fuss or effort to reconvert me. My mother is very well versed in
theology and catholic history and we have many a lively debate concerning catholisim and religion in general.

I think your children will do just fine if you teach them to use thier
head. Next time your child askes you about god, santa claus, or the two party political system, ask them what they think about it first and go from there.

Hai, Uruk (chuckle).

Among religions, I find Catholics to be decent critical thinkers within their own limited context. They even admit that homosexuality is from God (Catholic Catechism paragraph 2358[http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/catechism.html]). Of course, not all of their followers practice these skills...kudos to your mother.

Your suggestion to ask them what they think is excellent. Simple, effective, and not likely to come to my mind when the time is right, but I'll endeavor to change that. Thanks.