9/11 Pentagon attack

[Beerdoodle]

Ok, I have a friend who is a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. He believes all of the stupid Alex Jones crap about the U.S. government being behind the attacks. I can pretty much debunk everything he says. It's kind of ridiculous. However, there is one subject that I can't quite explain, so I am putting it out there for you fellow skeptics to help me out.

He maintains that the attack on the pentagon where flight 77 hit the pentagon on 9/11 was a cover up for a bombing that was set up by the government.

This has the pungent odor of conspiracy bull that will turn one's stomach, but upon doing my own (limited) research about the subject, the bombing theory has a little weight. Google for photographs of the 9/11 pentagon attack and you will not see ANY parts of the plane. The government says that it "disintegrated." Is this even physically possible? Can a plane disintegrate? Wouldn't there be at least some scrap metal or seats or luggage or something left over from the crash? Plus some people say that the pattern of debris when seen from above are consistent with an explosion from in the building, not a crash from outside. I am not a scientist or physicist or anything but thinking rationally I could see where the attack on the pentagon could possibly have been a bomb.

If anybody has done some research on this subject I would love to hear about it. Maybe there is some evidence or solid science that I haven't seen that would really help debunk this theory. This would make a good skeptoid episode.

[applecorped]

Ahem. You are joking, right?

[applecorped]

Oh, welcome.

[Beerdoodle]

No, I am not joking.

[applecorped]

In that case I have nothing to offer. Good luck.

[Beerdoodle]

I don't believe the government bombed the pentagon, but I just want to know where the friggin' plane is.

[applecorped]

????? Really? You not trying hard enough then.

[applecorped]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A56110-2002May8&notFound=true

[applecorped]

As coroner, responsible for returning human remains, Miller has been forced to share with the families information that is unimaginable. As he clinically recounts to them, holding back very few details, the 33 passengers, seven crew and four hijackers together weighed roughly 7,000 pounds. They were essentially cremated together upon impact. Hundreds of searchers who climbed the hemlocks and combed the woods for weeks were able to find about 1,500 mostly scorched samples of human tissue totaling less than 600 pounds, or about 8 percent of the total.

[Beerdoodle]

Ok, that almost helps. That link is about flight 93, the one that people prevented from crashing into a building and the passengers took over the hijackers and crashed the plane in the woods, killing only those on board. Flight 77 is the one that hit the pentagon. I need more info about that plane. But thanks for the link, that was a good article.

[stateofgrace]

Ok, that almost helps. That link is about flight 93, the one that people prevented from crashing into a building and the passengers took over the hijackers and crashed the plane in the woods, killing only those on board. Flight 77 is the one that hit the pentagon. I need more info about that plane. But thanks for the link, that was a good article.

Maybe you should look here.

http://forums.randi.org/local_links.php?catid=18

Or maybe this thread should be moved here

http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64

Regards stateofgrace.

[Locknar]

This has the pungent odor of conspiracy bull that will turn one's stomach, <snip>Actually, the odor was JPL (ie. jet fuel)


The government says that it "disintegrated." Is this even physically possible? Can a plane disintegrate?Yes.

ETA: The crash site is/was consistent with other "nose first" head on type impacts.


Plus some people say that the pattern of debris when seen from above are consistent with an explosion from in the building, not a crash from outside.Who ever these "people" are, they are wrong.



If anybody has done some research on this subject I would love to hear about it. I was there.

[paximperium]

Uh...no wreckage?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Flight_77_wreckage_at_Pentagon.jpg/800px-Flight_77_wreckage_at_Pentagon.jpg
You do realize a plane made of aluminum and steel hit a reinforced concrete building designed to withstands bombs? It is surprising there is as much wreckage as there is.

[Toke]

There is something here I don´t get.

How would anyone coordinate the placing and detonation of a bomb inside the pentagon with the impact of an airplane. And why, a plane gives plenty damage for PR effect.
And how would such a conspiracy fit the other planes, and lack of termite/explosives?

A conspiracy teori should at least be internally consistent.

[Locknar]

You do realize a plane made of aluminum and steel hit a reinforced concrete building designed to withstands bombs? It is surprising there is as much wreckage as there is.The outter wall of Pentagon is solid stone, 3 - 5 ft thick depending on location...not concrete.

[parky76]

throw an aluminum can at 600 mph at a concrete wall. i wonder what will happen to it.

[Beerdoodle]

stateofgrace, thanks for the link. I had not heard about the downed light poles. It's kind of hard to find good information out there. Usually when you do a search, you just find sites about the conspiracy theories.

[Beerdoodle]

Locknar, you were there? Were you there when it happened? Were you injured? What can you remember about it? Have you written about it your experience anywhere? I have never talked to anybody that experienced the attacks.

[George152]

throw an aluminum can at 600 mph at a concrete wall. i wonder what will happen to it.

The aluminium can weighs 120 tons and is thrown at the concrete wall at 500mph it is going to go through

[Locknar]

Locknar, you were there? Were you there when it happened? Yes, 3A147.


Were you injured? No; I was not injured nor was any of my staff in the attack.


What can you remember about it? Everything


Have you written about it your experience anywhere? I have never talked to anybody that experienced the attacks.No, but you (et all) are welcome to ask any questions you might have.

[skepticdave]

I have a friend who expressed the same belief, "How could a huge jet hit a building and get disintegrated? I cant imagine that, so it must not have happened." Uh, what?

Well, educate yourself! Here's a Phantom jet hitting a concrete wall at 500 mph. Its quite stunning how it literally vaporizes.

Oops, I can't post a link yet, so go to youtube and type in the search field "jet hits wall." Its the first result entitled "F4 Phantom Jet Hits Concrete Wall at 500 MPH"

[sts60]

He maintains that the attack on the pentagon where flight 77 hit the pentagon on 9/11 was a cover up for a bombing that was set up by the government.
Your friend is, to put it as kindly as I can, an idiot. Why in the world would you attempt to fake an airliner crash in broad daylight, in full view of many, many unrelated witnesses, with a bomb or missile or drone? (Indeed, many dozens of people directly witnessed the airliner crashing into the Pentagon.) Think about it for a minute; it's absurd, even if you think the eeevil gubmint was behind it all. If you want people to think an airliner hit the Pentagon, you hit it with an airliner. Everything else requires a flight of fancy that would put the love clone of Rube Goldberg and M.C. Escher to shame.
Google for photographs of the 9/11 pentagon attack and you will not see ANY parts of the plane. The government says that it "disintegrated." Is this even physically possible? Can a plane disintegrate? Wouldn't there be at least some scrap metal or seats or luggage or something left over from the crash?
What do you think happens when an airliner made of aluminum runs into a very thick wall - literally a fortress wall - at 500 miles per hour? Is it supposed to leave a perfect cartoon-style outline?

You've already been shown pictures of debris. I know firefighters who were there that day, pulling pieces of 757 (and victims) out.
Plus some people say that the pattern of debris when seen from above are consistent with an explosion from in the building, not a crash from outside.
These people are delusional. They probably think lunar craters are the results of bombs (and half of them probably think we never landed on the Moon to boot).
If anybody has done some research on this subject I would love to hear about it. Maybe there is some evidence or solid science that I haven't seen that would really help debunk this theory. This would make a good skeptoid episode.
This has been done to death in the 9/11 conspiracy forum. The "no-plane" claim is one of the five dumbest things I've ever heard. It's right up there with the claim that NASA blew up Challenger because Christa McAuliffe was going to admit you can see stars in space.*

*Don't ask. It's a long, painfully dumb story, and the no-planes stupidity alone is already enough to induce a migraine.

[Patricio Elicer]

Google for photographs of the 9/11 pentagon attack and you will not see ANY parts of the plane.



Really?


Watch this:

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/6690/911pentagonruedacompara.jpg


and this...


http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/4607/911filght77pentagon.jpg


and this ...


http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/985/911pentagonflight77.jpg


and this...

YTNRkb7AaQk


and this ...

K89coc88Hrs


What do you think now?

[Lanzy]

Beerdoodle, several of us were there. We don't need no stinking theories.

[skepticdave]

I just watched the excellent 4-hour, 2-part National Geographic documentary on the 9-11 mission. It was stunning in its detail and scope. I recommend any denier just watch about 15 minutes and then try to say the same US Government nonsense.

They have traced every step of the 19 perpetrators going back years before the attack. Some of them recorded videos, wrote letters, and sent emails to relatives describing their involvement. They got several guys on video leaving WalMart where they bought the box-cutters. There are numerous phone calls by passengers (and airline staff) ON THE PLANES to loved ones before they crashed. One of the terrorist pilots was recorded by the FAA making a radio call while in the cockpit. C'mon! The list just goes on and on and on.

There is no doubt, so lets not disrespect the memory of those who perished by concocting idiotic theories based on ignorance of the facts. Bin Laden bought and paid for the mission and will gladly tell you. Don't EVER let him off the hook just because you have faulty logic.

[empeake]

This Mythbusters video clip can give an idea of the amount of desintegration. In particular, watch the super slow motion sequence beginning at the 2:12 mark.

aSVfYwdGSsQ

[ElMondoHummus]

Welcome Beerdoodle. While this is not direct evidence, it is secondary evidence that further confirms the presence of the jet:


American Airlines Flight 77 (the flight that hit the Pentagon), was not lost to radar, not "primary" radar at least. You can find more information about this in the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories subforum, but in essence: Flight 77 had turned from its path and shut down its radar transponder. This
Put the aircraft in airspace that air traffic controllers were not expecting it to be in, and
Because the transponder radioing flight identification data was shut off, what's called "secondary" radar could not detect it. Secondary radar is passive; it only receives signals from transponders.
So, FL77 was indeed lost to air traffic controllers for a period of time, but reconstruction of "primary" radar data - data sent by what we traditionally think of as radar i.e. a randome sending out a signal and receiving returns from flying aircraft - shows clearly the track the jet flew from takeoff to impact. The writeup of the NTSB analysis of that data can be found here:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/

In short: We have radar data showing the flight from takeoff to the point it dropped below radar coverage, which was mere seconds before impact. It's true that this is not an aircraft part, but regardless, it is definitive for identifying that flight as well as the location it ended up in.

There's more proof of FL77's impact on the Pentagon, but I'll leave that for you to find. There's been lots of stuff posted over in the Resources section (http://forums.randi.org/local_links.php?catid=18) that you can cruise through.