More troubles in Oakland

[Bikewer]

So soon after the much-publicized BART shooting incident, Oakland lost three police officers yesterday in two connected shooting incidents:

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE52L07X20090322

Evidently, officers attempted to stop a known felon on warrants and he opened fire, killing one of the officers involved in the stop.
Later, the individual was found at his home. SWAT officers were attempting entry when the suspect opened fire with an "assault rifle" (not identified in the article), killing two of the SWAT officers and wounding another.
The gunman was killed.

Unable to comment without more detail, but on first blush the SWAT raid seems to have been poorly conducted; a suspect who had already shot and killed an officer and would present an obvious threat.... Were the officers a bit too eager to go in? No doubt more information will surface.

[AJM8125]

Here's an update on this. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/23/MNBQ16LGNH.DTL&tsp=1)

but on first blush the SWAT raid seems to have been poorly conducted; a suspect who had already shot and killed an officer and would present an obvious threat.... Were the officers a bit too eager to go in? No doubt more information will surface.

The morning news (KRON4) reported the gunman opened fire at a wall, killing the other two officers who positioned behind it. I don't believe this is the case as no other agency has reported that and the KRON4 website makes no mention of it.

[Bikewer]

Entirely possible... Most interior walls provide little resistance to high-powered rifles.

It's also possible that the guy studied SWAT tactics; which are on TV on a regular basis.

Usually, on an "entry", everyone lines up behind the point man, and most armor is arranged to take hits from the front. The officers might have been vulnerable to side shots as they stood there waiting for the go-sign....

Just speculation....

[gdnp]

I would be interested to know the weapon, its source, and ammunition used in this attack. Lax laws, lax enforcement, or other?

[ravdin]

I would be interested to know the weapon, its source, and ammunition used in this attack. Lax laws, lax enforcement, or other?

More sad news- the police officer who was critically wounded has been removed from life support, making it four cops who have been killed.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/24/BA7916M0AJ.DTL&tsp=1

I don't know where the weapons were obtained, but the killer used a handgun at the traffic stop and an AK-47 at his sister's home. I'll go out on a limb here and guess that none of these weapons were obtained by legal means- a convicted felon can't get a handgun, and I'm pretty sure that even with a clean record one can't legally acquire an AK-47 in Oakland.

[Kestrel]

I don't know where the weapons were obtained, but the killer used a handgun at the traffic stop and an AK-47 at his sister's home. I'll go out on a limb here and guess that none of these weapons were obtained by legal means- a convicted felon can't get a handgun, and I'm pretty sure that even with a clean record one can't legally acquire an AK-47 in Oakland.

Last time I looked, Nevada didn't require background checks for private party firearms sales.

What would have kept this guy from buying guns in Nevada?

[ravdin]

Last time I looked, Nevada didn't require background checks for private party firearms sales.

What would have kept this guy from buying guns in Nevada?

Gangbangers also don't require a background check. I'd be really surprised if he went all the way to Nevada to buy his weapons.

[AJM8125]

Gangbangers also don't require a background check. I'd be really surprised if he went all the way to Nevada to buy his weapons.

Agreed. It's one-stop shopping in Oakland, Richmond or the Bay View over in my neck of the woods. A SFPD detective was murdered by an idiot with a AK a while back.

[dudalb]

I know, from personal experience, that if I have the cash, I could probably get any small arm I want, legal or not, within a couple of days.
One time I was at a gun show looking at the selection of black powder single shot flintlock pistols, and the dealer wanted to know if I was interested in a fullly automatic Uzi. I declined.

[dudalb]

And that is another reason I think gun control..at least in terms of the de facto banning of private gun ownership ....is a dead end. It would be prohibition all over again.

[Kestrel]

Gangbangers also don't require a background check. I'd be really surprised if he went all the way to Nevada to buy his weapons.

Most gangbangers would also have trouble passing a background check. So where do you think they obtain weapons to sell in the black market?

[gdnp]

Most gangbangers would also have trouble passing a background check. So where do you think they obtain weapons to sell in the black market?

Which is my question as well. Regardless of the many questions on which the posters here disagree, we all agree that we should keep guns out of the hands of criminals. So how did this gun get to this criminal?

[Policenaut]

Illegal imports, crooked gun dealers, pawn shop, private transactions...there are many ways. Or he could have just paid a non criminal friend to buy the gun for him.

[ravdin]

Illegal imports, crooked gun dealers, pawn shop, private transactions...there are many ways. Or he could have just paid a non criminal friend to buy the gun for him.

If the gun is legally registered to someone else, that person is in a world of **** right now. That person is going to jail for a long, long time.

[Euromutt]

Illegal imports, crooked gun dealers, pawn shop, private transactions...there are many ways. Or he could have just paid a non criminal friend to buy the gun for him.To the best of my understanding, pawn shops that deal in guns are required to have a 01 FFL, just like regular gun shops, and to carry out background checks on buyers.

As for the possibility of a straw purchase, it would have had to have been a friend with residency in another state, since California's Assault Weapons Control Act would have precluded purchasing an assembled Kalashnikov variant from a licensed dealer. There are legal ways around the AWCA, but they would have unavailable to someone with a criminal record.

Another possibility is that the weapon was stolen from its legal owner, though that person would either have to had be living outside California, or have had that rifle long enough that it was grandfathered in when the AWCA came into force.

[godless dave]

Last time I looked, Nevada didn't require background checks for private party firearms sales.

What would have kept this guy from buying guns in Nevada?


AK-47s are illegal everywhere in the US, unless you have a federal license to possess machine guns, and those are pretty difficult to get.

[TX50]

AK-47s are illegal everywhere in the US, unless you have a federal license to possess machine guns, and those are pretty difficult to get.

Can't you have them if they only fire semi-automatic?

[Euromutt]

AK-47s are illegal everywhere in the US, unless you have a federal license to possess machine guns, and those are pretty difficult to get.Certain states (including California) outlaw private ownership of machine guns even with the federal paperwork. In addition, it hasn't been legal to import an AK-47 or AKM since the Gun Control Act of 1968 went into force.

Semi-auto-only Kalashnikov variants are a different matter, of course, but the SF Chronicle article does say "AK-47 assault rifle," rather than "semi-auto Kalashnikov variant."

ETA:
Can't you have them if they only fire semi-automatic?Yes, but then they're not "AK-47 assault rifles"; then they're semi-auto Kalashnikov variants. "AK" stands for Avtomat Kalashnikova - "Kalashnikov's automatic [rifle]." If it can't fire on automatic, it's not an avtomat, now, is it?

To compare, semi-auto-only variants of the M16 design are referred to as "AR-15s" (because Colt initially sold semi-auto-only versions under that trademark). When you say "M16," you are indicating a version capable of automatic or burst fire, and if you meant a semi-auto-only version, you've just confused your audience because you used the wrong term.

In addition, the AK-47 is only one specific model of the Kalashnikov design. It was supplanted in Soviet use by the AKM ("M" for Modernizirovanniy, "modernized"), which in turn was supplanted by the AK-74. And then there are all the variants manufactured under license by Warsaw Pact member states, each with its own specific features, and the end result is that when you're talking about some variant of the basic Kalashnikov design without knowing precisely which, you should avoid using the specific term "AK-47" and say "Kalashnikov derivative" instead.

[dudalb]

Can't you have them if they only fire semi-automatic?



Problem is it is pretty easy to modify a semi auto only AK to full auto, and you can do it with tools you can get in any hardware store.

[Kestrel]

AK-47s are illegal everywhere in the US, unless you have a federal license to possess machine guns, and those are pretty difficult to get.

I doubt the weapon used was a full automatic AK-47. It's common practice to call semi-automatic variants of that firearm "AK-47" even if it's not technically correct.

[Bikewer]

Full or Semi...An AK is capable of putting a lot of rounds downrange in a very short time.

As noted, converting legal semi-autos to full is usually no problem.

We used to modify our M-14s to full auto with a bit of soda can.... Of course, we were shooting blanks at the "agressors".

[Euromutt]

Problem is it is pretty easy to modify a semi auto only AK to full auto, and you can do it with tools you can get in any hardware store.It's pretty easy to modify a Kalashnikov receiver that isn't drilled for an automatic sear into one that will accept such a sear, yes. But you still need the "full auto parts set" (which includes the sear) and a full-auto bolt carrier (one machined with an "automatic sear trip cam"). Without those, you cannot convert a semi-auto Kalashnikov to full auto, and the sears are regulated under federal law.

In other words, it's not actually that easy.

We used to modify our M-14s to full auto with a bit of soda can.... Of course, we were shooting blanks at the "aggressors".One of my RNLA drill instructors told me removing the safety sear from our FALs would cause them to fire on full auto as well. But military firearms aren't subject to BATFE manufacture/import regulations. There have been rules in place since 1986 that require semi-auto versions of selective-fire weapons to not be readily convertible to automatic fire. Hence the different sears and bolt carriers. A semi-auto-only Kalashnikov is no more readily convertible to selective fire or full auto than an AR-15.

[luchog]

Most gangbangers would also have trouble passing a background check. So where do you think they obtain weapons to sell in the black market?

According to the FBI, there are three sources for the vast majority of illegal firearms in the US. One of them is the very small number (roughly 18 convicted in 2007 if memory serves) of licensed firearm dealers in the US who have been convicted of knowingly engaged in "straw sales", that is, selling to girlfriends and family members of gangsters. Since these individuals have no records, it is technically legal to sell to them; but additional checks or reports to local law enforcement are often mandated. There are also a few of that number who have been reported as engaging in "under the counter" sales directly to gangsters, and later reporting the firearms as "stolen". This is responsible for the majority of illegal handguns on the market. For automatic weapons, there are two sources. One is legally purchased semi-automatic versions of weapons like the AK47, illegally converted into full-automatic operation by gangsters and black market dealers. The other is automatic weapons smuggled in through unmonitored coastal waters, or by land from Mexico. IIRC illegal conversions are responsible for the majority of such weapons.

[luchog]

It's pretty easy to modify a Kalashnikov receiver that isn't drilled for an automatic sear into one that will accept such a sear, yes. But you still need the "full auto parts set" (which includes the sear) and a full-auto bolt carrier (one machined with an "automatic sear trip cam"). Without those, you cannot convert a semi-auto Kalashnikov to full auto, and the sears are regulated under federal law.

In other words, it's not actually that easy.

It is if you have access to a machine shop and the expertise to manufacture the parts. They don't have to be of commercial quality, just "good enough", and any automotive machine shop has all the necessary tools. There's quite a substantial underground market for the parts, and a pretty decent supply if you know where to look.

[Euromutt]

It is if you have access to a machine shop and the expertise to manufacture the parts. They don't have to be of commercial quality, just "good enough", and any automotive machine shop has all the necessary tools.Okay, I'll buy that. The Kalashnikov design is made to function with very loose clearances (at the expense of accuracy), so that might work. Do note, however, that we've progressed from "tools you can get in any hardware store" to an "automotive machine shop" to manufacture the parts needed to convert one.

[ponderingturtle]

Certain states (including California) outlaw private ownership of machine guns even with the federal paperwork. In addition, it hasn't been legal to import an AK-47 or AKM since the Gun Control Act of 1968 went into force.

Semi-auto-only Kalashnikov variants are a different matter, of course, but the SF Chronicle article does say "AK-47 assault rifle," rather than "semi-auto Kalashnikov variant."

You trust a newspaper to get that fine a distinction?

[tyr_13]

You trust a newspaper to get that fine a distinction?

Actually, it would surprise me to find out the rifle was in fact an SKS or a mini-30.

[Euromutt]

You trust a newspaper to get that fine a distinction?Whether a firearm is capable of automatic fire or not strikes me as rather an important distinction, actually. But no, I don't expect most newspapers to understand that difference, certainly not the Chronicle, and television news has proven itself time and time again to either not understand the distinction, or just not care, displaying footage of weapons being fired on automatic during segments on semi-automatic "assault weapons."

Actually, it would surprise me to find out the rifle was in fact an SKS or a mini-30.I take it you mean that it would not surprise you, surely? Those are rifles that would be easier to acquire in California, certainly, and equipped with a non-California-compliant aftermarket magazine it'd certainly be enough to confuse most journalists.

[tyr_13]

I take it you mean that it would not surprise you, surely? Those are rifles that would be easier to acquire in California, certainly, and equipped with a non-California-compliant aftermarket magazine it'd certainly be enough to confuse most journalists.

Yes, I meant not surprised. Damn, I'm just making a lot of mistakes typing today.

The news reporting outlets do seem to make this kind of 'mistake' over and over. No doubt it is sometimes intentional as calling a weapon an 'assault rifle' or 'AK-47' is a lot more scary than the more accurate descriptions. This has the sad side effect of creating a demand for gun laws based solely on the 'scariness' of it. For example, a forward pistol grip doesn't make a rifle an 'assault rifle' yet that specific feature is mentioned in a lot. I could deck out my 10/22 to be an 'assault rifle' by the standards of New York simply by putting a folding stock on it, or a forward pistol grip.

To most people an AK-47 is any rifle with wood parts, a long barrel, and a curved protruding magazine. Of course I'd assume that the police would be more likely to have the mini-30 (or mini-14) than the criminal, but the SKS seems to be pretty popular with LA area gangs.

[luchog]

Okay, I'll buy that. The Kalashnikov design is made to function with very loose clearances (at the expense of accuracy), so that might work. Do note, however, that we've progressed from "tools you can get in any hardware store" to an "automotive machine shop" to manufacture the parts needed to convert one.
Not really, I was speaking directly of the Kalashnikov, AR-16 semi-autos, and other weapons that require more extensive modification. A friend of mine has two SKS's that can be converted from semi-auto to full auto with a handfull of tools available at any decent hardware store. I know this to be true because he did, in fact, do the conversion on one of them. I have a semi-auto rifle that I could convert to full auto in less than 10 minutes with a small file.

The automotive machine shop is merely the very top end of the tools and expertise required, and nearly every city and moderate-sized town has one. And it doesn't work only for the Kalashnikov series. Automotive tools and machinists are capable of working to the tolerance necessary for most conversions. Hell, for that matter, automotive machine shops are capable of manufacturing simple and inexpensive full auto weapons from stock and scrap metal (which was the main design impetus behind the still extant M3 "Grease Gun" submachine gun).

[Policenaut]

http://cbs13.com/local/vigil.shooting.suspect.2.968035.html

Sounds like a great idea.