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Thunder
22nd March 2009, 09:05 AM
That's right folks. Our great ally, the vanguard of human rights and freedom in the Middle East, the only Western-style freedom-loving country in the Levant...........100% allows racial, religious, and ethnic discrimination.

Where is this racial discrimination allowed? It is allowed in housing, education, and employment.

It is 100% LEGAL in Israel to NOT sell someone a home or NOT rent them an apartment, because of their race. This is a fact.

It is 100% LEGAL in Israel to NOT allow a child to enroll in a kindergarden or nursery, because they are an Arab child. This is a fact.

It is 100% LEGAL to NOT hire someone, because of their race. The State of Israel allows this. No joke..

So folks, never mind the Israeli propaganda, but do we REALLY have common values with Israel? Do we really share common values with a nation that openly allows racial discrimination??

What kind of nation, that has a 2,000 year history of being persecuted, exiled, and murdered, because of racism....allows racism now that they have power and authority?

A nation of hypocrites perhaps?

Only God will judge. And according to the Bible, he does not take kindly to his people being disobedient and arrogant.

Tmy
22nd March 2009, 09:21 AM
The creation of Isreal was based on discrimination. THe allies figured it was the best way to get rid of the jews was to ship them off to the mid east and disguise it as giving them their own country. Then they became the arabs problem! How convienent.

Thunder
22nd March 2009, 09:23 AM
The creation of Isreal was based on discrimination. THe allies figured it was the best way to get rid of the jews was to ship them off to the mid east and disguise it as giving them their own country. Then they became the arabs problem! How convienent.

funny....but possible.

The Final Solution to the Jewish Question? Send them all to Palestine where the Arabs will want to kill them.

Tmy
22nd March 2009, 09:25 AM
funny....but possible.

The Final Solution to the Jewish Question? Send them all to Palestine where the Arabs will want to kill them.

Well the allied countries were (are?) anti semetic themselves. They couldve created a Jewish state on Europe soil if they wanted too.

Thunder
22nd March 2009, 09:26 AM
Well the allied countries were (are?) anti semetic themselves. They couldve created a Jewish state on Europe soil if they wanted too.

i believe they did not do that because they knew the locals hated the Jews. plus they were worried more about the USSR. the jews were a side issue.

lets not forget there was a pogrom in Poland in 1952. several hundred Jews murdered.

WildCat
22nd March 2009, 09:26 AM
Another evidence-free post from parky!

WildCat
22nd March 2009, 09:28 AM
The creation of Isreal was based on discrimination. THe allies figured it was the best way to get rid of the jews was to ship them off to the mid east and disguise it as giving them their own country. Then they became the arabs problem! How convienent.
Why was this a problem to the Arabs?

Thunder
22nd March 2009, 09:29 AM
Another evidence-free post from parky!

are you denying that racial discrimination is legal in Israel? is that what you are saying?

http://www.acri.org.il/eng/story.aspx?id=628

http://www.acri.org.il/eng/Story.aspx?id=249

Tmy
22nd March 2009, 09:35 AM
Why was this a problem to the Arabs?

Well the Un created the state out in the mid east knowing it wouldnt be so "kosher"
with the surrounding arab states........ GET IT "kosher". Thats a joke in case you missed it.

Tmy
22nd March 2009, 09:36 AM
lets not forget there was a pogrom in Poland in 1952. several hundred Jews murdered.

yeah, cause no jews have been killed in the mid east! Its not like the jews werent familiar to europe. They had settled there for centries. They couldve found a home for them.

WildCat
22nd March 2009, 09:48 AM
are you denying that racial discrimination is legal in Israel? is that what you are saying?
I'm saying you have shown no evidence to put things in context. For example, dd you know it ir perfectly legal in the USA to discriminate based on race, religion, or any other reason when renting an apartment in the US? Provided, of course, it's an owner-occupied building of 4 units or less.

Context is everything parky.

WildCat
22nd March 2009, 09:50 AM
are you denying that racial discrimination is legal in Israel? is that what you are saying?

http://www.acri.org.il/eng/story.aspx?id=628

http://www.acri.org.il/eng/Story.aspx?id=249
Don't move the goalposts parky. Back up the claims in your OP. Can you do that?

Thunder
22nd March 2009, 09:54 AM
I'm saying you have shown no evidence to put things in context. For example, dd you know it ir perfectly legal in the USA to discriminate based on race, religion, or any other reason when renting an apartment in the US? Provided, of course, it's an owner-occupied building of 4 units or less.

Context is everything parky.

No. It is a violation of Federal law to discriminate against someone based on race, gender, age, ethnicity. Just ask the HUD.

WildCat
22nd March 2009, 09:54 AM
Well the Un created the state out in the mid east knowing it wouldnt be so "kosher"
with the surrounding arab states........ GET IT "kosher". Thats a joke in case you missed it.
Lebanon was carvedf out of the Ottoman Empire, as was Iraq, Syria, Jordan, as well as Israel. Why is Israel so special? Why was the UN expected to accomodate Arab and Muslim racism?

Thunder
22nd March 2009, 09:55 AM
Don't move the goalposts parky. Back up the claims in your OP. Can you do that?

Well, for one thing, I read the story where the kindergarden in northern Israel refused to allow in an Arab little girl..because the other parents didn't want an Arab there. This was not illegal.

WildCat
22nd March 2009, 09:57 AM
No. It is a violation of Federal law to discriminate against someone based on race, gender, age, ethnicity. Just ask the HUD.
No, it's not. Here's the actual law:


(b)Nothing in section 804 of this title (other than subsection (c)) shall apply to--
(1) any single-family house sold or rented by an owner: Provided, That such private individual owner does not own more than three such single-family houses at any one time: Provided further, That in the case of the sale of any such single-family house by a private individual owner not residing in such house at the time of such sale or who was not the most recent resident of such house prior to such sale, the exemption granted by this subsection shall apply only with respect to one such sale within any twenty-four month period: Provided further, That such bona fide private individual owner does not own any interest in, nor is there owned or reserved on his behalf, under any express or voluntary agreement, title to or any right to all or a portion of the proceeds from the sale or rental of, more than three such single-family houses at any one time: Provided further, That after December 31, 1969, the sale or rental of any such single-family house shall be excepted from the application of this subchapter only if such house is sold or rented (A) without the use in any manner of the sales or rental facilities or the sales or rental services of any real estate broker, agent, or salesman, or of such facilities or services of any person in the business of selling or renting dwellings, or of any employee or agent of any such broker, agent, salesman, or person and (B) without the publication, posting or mailing, after notice, of any advertisement or written notice in violation of section 804(c) of this title; but nothing in this proviso shall prohibit the use of attorneys, escrow agents, abstractors, title companies, and other such professional assistance as necessary to perfect or transfer the title, or
(2)rooms or units in dwellings containing living quarters occupied or intended to be occupied by no more than four families living independently of each other, if the owner actually maintains and occupies one of such living quarters as his residence.
http://www.fairhousing.com/index.cfm?method=page.display&pagename=FHA_fha

I have a 2-flat and live in one of the units. There is no Federal law that restricts me from not renting to anyone for whatever reason I choose.

Darth Rotor
22nd March 2009, 09:58 AM
Racial discrimination is LEGAL in Israel.
It is 100% LEGAL in Israel to NOT sell someone a home or NOT rent them an apartment, because of their race. This is a fact. It is 100% LEGAL in Israel to NOT allow a child to enroll in a kindergarden or nursery, because they are an Arab child. This is a fact. It is 100% LEGAL to NOT hire someone, because of their race. The State of Israel allows this. No joke..

OK, if I get this right, a man can stand on a street corner in Israel and shout n!igg3r at all the blacks who walk by, and it's OK with everyone there.

Therefore, all of the WN's from the US should move to Israel, since they'll feel more at home and be able to so express themselves on street corners, get the water fountains re organized, resegregate their schools, and realbinize the work force. As an added plus, a chance to commune with Jew haters in Gaza is just a short car ride away.

I see no downside.

Do you?

(Are you sure this discrimination is racial? Isn't it cultural? I mean, all them arabs and jews is semites, ya see ... )

DR

theprestige
22nd March 2009, 09:59 AM
Somehow I'm not convinced that neglecting to establish any laws explicitly prohibiting this-or-that discrimination is really that big a deal.

WildCat
22nd March 2009, 09:59 AM
Well, for one thing, I read the story where the kindergarden in northern Israel refused to allow in an Arab little girl..because the other parents didn't want an Arab there. This was not illegal.
This constitutes evidence? A story you remember?

For those of us not so sure of your infallible memory can you link the story?

Marc39
22nd March 2009, 10:04 AM
The State of Israel will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
-- Israel's Declaration of Independence

Darth Rotor
22nd March 2009, 10:14 AM
The State of Israel will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
-- Israel's Declaration of Independence
Marc, this prediction/political/assertion rhetoric seems not to match the facts on the ground.

To what do you attribute that? Is that language also incorporated into the Israeli Constitution?

Please share your insights on that.

DR

Thunder
22nd March 2009, 10:15 AM
This constitutes evidence? A story you remember?

For those of us not so sure of your infallible memory can you link the story?

it was in both the jerusalem post and haaretz. i am doing my best to find it.

Thunder
22nd March 2009, 10:16 AM
The State of Israel will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
-- Israel's Declaration of Independence

The Israeli Declaration of Independence, though noble in its words, is only a statement of intent. It is not law.

And there is NO Israeli Constitution. Israel is under a permanent state of emergency, which is why perpetual detention without charge is allowed.

FireGarden
22nd March 2009, 10:20 AM
It is 100% LEGAL in Israel to NOT sell someone a home or NOT rent them an apartment, because of their race. This is a fact.

What do you mean exactly?
I recall a case that went to court regarding allowing an Arab family to move into a Jewish neighbourhood. This is from 2003, about the Kadan family:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=345961

The ILA (Israel Lands Administration) will hand over title to a plot in Katzir settlement to the Kadan family, the Arab household that has been trying to move into the new community off Wadi Ara for years and had to go to the High Court of Justice to force the ILA to sell them land.

[...] In March 2000, the Kadan's won a precedent-setting ruling in the High Court, which decided the state cannot discriminate on the basis of religion or nationality when allocating state land to Israeli citizens, even if it allocates the land through a third party such as the Jewish Agency.

[...] Despite the High Court victory, the state and Jewish Agency avoided implementing the verdict and refused to allocate a plot to the family. A month ago, Haaretz reported that Jewish Agency memo recommended ignoring the High Court ruling and to continue operating the policy in effect before the March [2000] court verdict.


While looking for the above I found this, from 2007:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/887477.html

On September 10, the High Court will begin discussing petitions to force the ILA to lease JNF lands to non-Jews as well. Petitioners include the Arab rights group Adalah and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI). On the other hand, the Knesset approved in a preliminary reading a draft law that would enable the ILA to continue leasing JNF lands to Jews only.

[...] The JNF's legal adviser in Israel, attorney Meir Alfia, and attorneys from S. Horowitz and Co., wrote in bold letters: "The future of the Zionist enterprise and the fate of Jewish settlement in the Land of Israel" hung in the balance. "Is 'Zionism' indeed 'racism' in Israel 2000?" the JNF representatives asked. "Have the Zionist movement and its institutions lost their appeal? Is the High Court of Justice of the Jewish state making such a declaration? These are the real questions the petitioners have brought before the venerable court."

[...] The truth is that until 2004, Arabs could win tenders for JNF lands. The rule was that in such cases, the JNF would exchange land with the ILA, and thus the land would be leased from the ILA, not the JNF. In her statement to the High Court, Mandel claims that this was a clumsy arrangement requiring approval from the Knesset Finance Committee, and that it made things difficult. However, instead of dragging the state into a discussion on when Zionism becomes racism, it may have been easier to simplify this process. In 2004, the ILA published its first tender for JNF lands that stated explicitly that it was subject to the rules of the JNF - that is, that the land could be leased to Jews only. This tender was tantamount to an invitation to a High Court petition, and indeed they soon arrived.

Who needs the JNF (Editorial, Sept 2007):
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/906203.html

I'm not clear on what's happened since then.

It is 100% LEGAL in Israel to NOT allow a child to enroll in a kindergarden or nursery, because they are an Arab child. This is a fact.

I remember a recent case that might have gone to court. Do you have something in particular in mind?

It is 100% LEGAL to NOT hire someone, because of their race. The State of Israel allows this. No joke..

For which jobs? Do you have something in particular in mind?

fuelair
22nd March 2009, 10:27 AM
it was in both the jerusalem post and haaretz. i am doing my best to find it.
Not it, but evidence it is likely. Do not misunderstand though - during the course of locating this, I came across large numbers of articles on Palestinian/Hamas things far worse in nature.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/ecm_dlv/groups/public/@nyu_law_website__journals__journal_of_internation al_law_and_politics/documents/documents/ecm_pro_059608.pdf

Thunder
22nd March 2009, 10:58 AM
Not it, but evidence it is likely. Do not misunderstand though - during the course of locating this, I came across large numbers of articles on Palestinian/Hamas things far worse in nature.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/ecm_dlv/groups/public/@nyu_law_website__journals__journal_of_internation al_law_and_politics/documents/documents/ecm_pro_059608.pdf

As I have said before, saying that the Western democracy known as Israel does not act as bad as the Islamist extremists in Hamas and Iran, isn't saying much.

bigjelmapro
22nd March 2009, 11:57 AM
It is 100% LEGAL in Israel to NOT sell someone a home or NOT rent them an
apartment, because of their race. This is a fact.

Rubbish. The Israeli government owns the vast majority of land and makes it a headache to everyone when making land purchases, equally to all those who seek it.


It is 100% LEGAL in Israel to NOT allow a child to enroll in a kindergarden or nursery, because they are an Arab child. This is a fact.

Again, rubbish. The case you provided (although the evidence is yet to be provided) does not make this legal by any means.


It is 100% LEGAL to NOT hire someone, because of their race. The State of Israel allows this. No joke..

Another baseless allegation. IDF service is seen as a prerequisite to many jobs in Israel and Arabs can choose to serve in the IDF to attain these jobs. I've served with Druze in the IDF, and they have a significant advantage to Druze who choose not to serve in the IDF.


So folks, never mind the Israeli propaganda, but do we REALLY have common values with Israel? Do we really share common values with a nation that openly allows racial discrimination??

And your propaganda serves as the voice of reason here? Highly doubtful.

Tmy
22nd March 2009, 12:32 PM
Lebanon was carvedf out of the Ottoman Empire, as was Iraq, Syria, Jordan, as well as Israel. Why is Israel so special? Why was the UN expected to accomodate Arab and Muslim racism?

They accomodated European racism.

Tin Foil Timothy
22nd March 2009, 12:42 PM
Not it, but evidence it is likely. Do not misunderstand though - during the course of locating this, I came across large numbers of articles on Palestinian/Hamas things far worse in nature.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/ecm_dlv/groups/public/@nyu_law_website__journals__journal_of_internation al_law_and_politics/documents/documents/ecm_pro_059608.pdf

And the old diversion/deflection of whining that sonmebody else did something wrong continues to be forthcoming.

in a word...... YAWN!

Tin Foil Timothy
22nd March 2009, 12:46 PM
IDF service is seen as a prerequisite to many jobs in Israel and Arabs can choose to serve in the IDF to attain these jobs. I've served with Druze in the IDF, and they have a significant advantage to Druze who choose not to serve in the IDF.

That speaks volumes about the immorality of a society where one has to learn how to kill people in order to qualify for getting a job.

I would be ashamed of myself to be forced to join a terrorist military organization like the IDF that teaches you how to kill people.




And your propaganda serves as the voice of reason here? Highly doubtful.

On the contrary Parky is ashamed of the behavior of Israel and is speaking out about it. I applaud him.

He certainly doesn't have to resort to the propaganda and lies spewed out by the Israeli Atrocity/Apartheid Deniers and the Zionist Apoogists

Alt+F4
22nd March 2009, 12:50 PM
but do we REALLY have common values with Israel? Do we really share common values with a nation that openly allows racial discrimination??

Ask yourself the bigger question, why is Israel and not Palestine the ally of the United States?

Tin Foil Timothy
22nd March 2009, 12:52 PM
The creation of Isreal was based on discrimination.

It certainly was. And it still is. Israel hasn't finished creating itself yet. Those pesky Palestinians are still in the way.



THe allies figured it was the best way to get rid of the jews was to ship them off to the mid east and disguise it as giving them their own country. Then they became the arabs problem! How convienent.

I don't believe that.

Tin Foil Timothy
22nd March 2009, 12:54 PM
Ask yourself the bigger question, why is Israel and not Palestine the ally of the United States?

Because the US has a lot of Zionist Supporters. Oh and let's not forget the sizable portion Christian Fundamentlists who Support Israel for biblical prophecy purposes, and also hate the Muslims

Thunder
22nd March 2009, 01:01 PM
Because the US has a lot of Zionist Supporters. Oh and let's not forget the sizable portion Christian Fundamentlists who Support Israel for biblical prophecy purposes, and also hate the Muslims

TFT- so you don't consider Christian Fundamentalists who love Israel to be Zionists? Only Jews are Zionists??

We were making such progress Timmy. I hope it was not for nuthin.

Alt+F4
22nd March 2009, 01:17 PM
Because the US has a lot of Zionist Supporters. Oh and let's not forget the sizable portion Christian Fundamentlists who Support Israel for biblical prophecy purposes, and also hate the Muslims

It's hate the religion of Islam, in my opinion. What does the average American think? Jewish doctor just saved my life, women in Saudi Arabia aren't allowed to drive.

Islam has a major PR problem in the United States. Until Muslims can stop acting like it's still the 12th century the United States will always favor Israel.

Tin Foil Timothy
22nd March 2009, 01:23 PM
TFT- so you don't consider Christian Fundamentalists who love Israel to be Zionists? Only Jews are Zionists??

We were making such progress Timmy. I hope it was not for nuthin.

Are they 2 questions or 2 assumptions?


Huh? You don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist. Tony Blair and Condoleezza Rice are both Zionists and they aren't Jewish.

I also presume you've heard of Christian Zionism. e.g John Hagee and CUFI, etc,etc

Tin Foil Timothy
22nd March 2009, 01:26 PM
It's hate the religion of Islam, in my opinion. What does the average American think? Jewish doctor just saved my life, women in Saudi Arabia aren't allowed to drive.

Islam has a major PR problem in the United States. Until Muslims can stop acting like it's still the 12th century the United States will always favor Israel.

Huh?

Israel acts like the 12th century as well. The PR problem, or more accurately PR imbalance is created by those who own the media.

OH and FWIW Saudi Arabia is well respected by the Western Establishment. There's another double standard.

IDB87
22nd March 2009, 01:44 PM
OH and FWIW Saudi Arabia is well respected by the Western Establishment. There's another double standard.

Well respected, or tolerated? Is there a reason Saudi Arabia is tolerated in the American government?

Tin Foil Timothy
22nd March 2009, 01:47 PM
Well respected, or tolerated? Is there a reason Saudi Arabia is tolerated in the American government?

Oh I think that it's more than toleration when Red Carpets are involved and schmoozing on the raceourses.

I doubt you are really unaware of the reason the vile Islamic regime ofd Saudi is OK yet for Iran the case is not the same.

IDB87
22nd March 2009, 02:13 PM
I doubt you are really unaware of the reason the vile Islamic regime ofd Saudi is OK yet for the vile Islamic regime of Iran the case is not the same.

Did you deliberately forget to apply that label to Iran?

Is it ever politcally expedient to show favor to one nation over another? Why or why not?

As to the OP:

Parky, if you could cite the laws Israel has broken with references to specific examples of racial discrimination (IE, that school story you mentioned), that'd be great.

As far as there being racial discrimination in Israel, well it's prettuy obvious there is. However, you'll be hard-pressed to find any Western Nation where there isn't any racial bigotry. Whether or not it's santionced by the state is a huge issue.

Pardalis
22nd March 2009, 02:39 PM
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a154/perdalis/091.gif

Tin Foil Timothy
22nd March 2009, 03:00 PM
Did you deliberately forget to apply that label to Iran?

Presumably english isn't your first language. And that's fine.

The label was for both



As far as there being racial discrimination in Israel, well it's prettuy obvious there is. However, you'll be hard-pressed to find any Western Nation where there isn't any racial bigotry. Whether or not it's santionced by the state is a huge issue.

Another case of diluting by bringing up other injustices. It amazes me why people continue to do this. It's so tired and ineffective. Yawn.

IDB87
22nd March 2009, 03:18 PM
Another case of diluting by bringing up other injustices. It amazes me why people continue to do this. It's so tired and ineffective. Yawn.

Well, since Parky is hard-pressed to find any laws regarding his stories of government sanctioned racial discrimination, we're stuck with social discrimination, which exists in every society.

For example, I think it is a social injustice that Arab schools receieve less goevernment funding than Jewish schools. Do you think you could find a law that reads something like 'Arab schools shall never receieve more than X in government funds.'

Until you do, that same injustice can be applied to our society in one way or another. That doesn't mean the United States is an apartheid country or racist, and it does not make Israel an apartheid country or racist.

Pardalis
22nd March 2009, 05:07 PM
Another case of diluting by bringing up other injustices. It amazes me why people continue to do this. It's so tired and ineffective. Yawn.

So far, this thread is devoid of anything of factual value.

Thunder
22nd March 2009, 06:00 PM
I will contact human rights organizations that work in Israel tomorrow and find out if there are actually laws that allow racial discrimination in employment, housing, or education.

If I am wrong...I will admit so. But If I am right...I will rub it in your faces.

WildCat
22nd March 2009, 06:49 PM
So far, this thread is devoid of anything of factual value.
Par for the course for a parky/TFT thread.

Thunder
22nd March 2009, 06:50 PM
Par for the course for a parky/TFT thread.

yet you just....can't...stay away.

Tin Foil Timothy
22nd March 2009, 07:08 PM
Par for the course for a parky/TFT thread.

Heck! How can I be bothered about criticism from Zionist Apologists and Israeli Atrocity/Apartheid Deniers? It's a compliment if anything!!! :D:D

FireGarden
23rd March 2009, 03:04 AM
So far, this thread is devoid of anything of factual value.

I think my post had valuable facts.
Most of them are repeated here:
http://www.acri.org.il/eng/print.aspx?id=395

I asked Parky to clarify what he meant and gave an example of a courtcase where an Arab family (eventually) managed to gain the right to move into the settlement of their choice.
Here's the link again:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=345961


As far as Parky's claim itself: "It is 100% LEGAL in Israel to NOT sell someone a home or NOT rent them an apartment, because of their race. This is a fact."

That's complicated, because of the way the JNF operates. The JNF holds about 13% of Israeli land:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund

I can't find the outcome of the cases considered here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund#New_legislation

The ACRI page ends at Sept 2007 saying: "The High Court will hold a hearing on the issue at 9 a.m"

That is after "July 2007 – The Knesset passed in a first reading legislation that would allow the JNF to lease lands to Jews only."

So what was the result of the Sept hearing?

FireGarden
23rd March 2009, 03:13 AM
Also from Sept 2007, ACRI:
http://www.acri.org.il/eng/print.aspx?id=578

(Ka'adan being the court case I linked earlier).

In the matter of Ka'adan (HCJ 6698/95 Ka'adan v. Israel Lands Administration et al., P.D. 54(1) 258), the High Court of Justice (HCJ) made it patently clear that the government of Israel must demonstrate unequivocal equality in all of its actions, and that this obligation extends to the distribution of land by the ILA. It follows that the ILA is prohibited from making discriminatory use of its governmental authority and from adopting policies that favor Jews over Arabs in the administration any land for which it is responsible, including Jewish National Fund (JNF) land. The ILA's commitment to equality precedes any consideration and/or obligation related to the JFN.

Apart from repudiating the government's basic obligation to honor the human rights of Arab citizens, the proposed legislation also contradicts the Attorney General's position, communicated to the HCJ in May 2007, stating that "the Israel Lands Administration is obliged to uphold the principle of equality, and it is prohibited from discriminating on the basis of national affiliation, in its capacity as administrator of JNF-owned land as well."

[...] The acute shortage of available land in Arab communities is plainly evident in the following data:
--- The jurisdictional area of all Arab local authorities combined amounts to 2.5% of Israeli land, while Arab citizens constitute approximately 20% of the country's population.

--- Despite the rapid growth of the Israeli Arab population (now seven times larger than in 1948), the land reserves available to this sector have been reduced by about half since the establishment of the state.

--- No new Arab community has been built since Israel's establishment (apart from communities in the Negev that concentrated the Bedouin population and freed land for other purposes), while hundreds of Jewish communities have been created.

--- As the jurisdictional area of Arab communities diminishes, overcrowding becomes more severe: these areas are 11 times more crowded today than at the time of the state's establishment.

DC
23rd March 2009, 04:12 AM
I think it is a social injustice that Arab schools receieve less goevernment funding than Jewish schools.

thats racism pure.

Tin Foil Timothy
23rd March 2009, 11:20 AM
Par for the course for a parky/TFT thread.
yet you just....can't...stay away.

I notice he stays away from this thread though.

Dead Palestinian babies and bombed mosques - IDF fashion 2009 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=138078)

Not difficult to understand why.

The_Animus
23rd March 2009, 01:43 PM
There is no such thing as race. It's a made up social concept. All humans are 99.9% genetically identical and 99% of the variation in human genetics is found in over 93% of the world. The incredibly small variation in human genetics are found virtually everywhere meaning that there is next to no genetic variation between people everywhere in the world.

At least according to Bill Nye in The Eyes of Nye: Race

Alt+F4
23rd March 2009, 01:56 PM
thats racism pure.

How can you say it's racism when you don't know what the funding is based on? In the United States the District of Columbia spent $13,187 per pupil on education while Nevada spent only $6,034 per pupil.

Alt+F4
23rd March 2009, 01:58 PM
There is no such thing as race. It's a made up social concept. All humans are 99.9% genetically identical and 99% of the variation in human genetics is found in over 93% of the world. The incredibly small variation in human genetics are found virtually everywhere meaning that there is next to no genetic variation between people everywhere in the world.

In other words, inside we're all pink.

mortimer
23rd March 2009, 02:02 PM
How can you say it's racism when you don't know what the funding is based on? In the United States the District of Columbia spent $13,187 per pupil on education while Nevada spent only $6,034 per pupil.
Dollar amount per student has more to do with the cost of paying teachers than it does with the actual amenities and education the students receive, at least here in Texas. Much easier to pay teachers less to teach in less violent, more affluent areas than it is to pay them to teach in inner city schools. It's more difficult to teach the less fortunate, it seems. I don't have any idea how that figures into the Israeli Jew v. Israeli Arab school systems.

Thunder
23rd March 2009, 02:20 PM
There is no such thing as race. It's a made up social concept. All humans are 99.9% genetically identical and 99% of the variation in human genetics is found in over 93% of the world. The incredibly small variation in human genetics are found virtually everywhere meaning that there is next to no genetic variation between people everywhere in the world.

At least according to Bill Nye in The Eyes of Nye: Race

thanks for the derail.

Tin Foil Timothy
23rd March 2009, 02:49 PM
There is no such thing as race. It's a made up social concept. All humans are 99.9% genetically identical and 99% of the variation in human genetics is found in over 93% of the world. The incredibly small variation in human genetics are found virtually everywhere meaning that there is next to no genetic variation between people everywhere in the world.

At least according to Bill Nye in The Eyes of Nye: Race

Such a pedantic derail of nonsense will never wash. Some of us are talking on the humanitarian level. if you want to excuse racism by an absurdly ridiculous claim that race doesn't exist based upon some pedantic nomenclature then that only speaks volumes about your own agenda.

It's as bad as claiming that being anti-'semite' is also anti-arab. And that's another nonsense that periodically gets posted by people obviously without the necessary qualifications for forum debate.

IDB87
23rd March 2009, 02:52 PM
thanks for the derail.

Parky,

Any ETA on either your call to the Israeli human rights groups, or any confirmation of racial laws?

Thunder
23rd March 2009, 03:04 PM
Parky,

Any ETA on either your call to the Israeli human rights groups, or any confirmation of racial laws?

lol..i just got home from work. I will make of calling Americans for Peace Now, Meretz, ACRI tomorow. Thanks for reminding me.

Tin Foil Timothy
23rd March 2009, 03:36 PM
How can you say it's racism when you don't know what the funding is based on?

In case you missed it, and I appreciate you have a history of not reading posts properly, the funding was based upon race. Arab v. Jew

Therefore it's racist.


In the United States the District of Columbia spent $13,187 per pupil on education while Nevada spent only $6,034 per pupil.

Presumably that funding isn't based upon race.

DC
23rd March 2009, 04:06 PM
How can you say it's racism when you don't know what the funding is based on? In the United States the District of Columbia spent $13,187 per pupil on education while Nevada spent only $6,034 per pupil.

Its no problem when schools in the Northern District get less funding as in the Southern District. But when one school gets less funding per kid based on the school beeing Jewish or Arab, then i see a problem.

Undesired Walrus
23rd March 2009, 04:13 PM
Only God will judge. And according to the Bible, he does not take kindly to his people being disobedient and arrogant.

Again with this? Have you started to believe you are living in the End Times or something?

Your Biblical rhetoric simply makes you sound ridiculous.

Thunder
23rd March 2009, 04:15 PM
Again with this? Have you started to believe you are a prophet living in the End Times or something?

International conflicts really do something powerful to people's ego.

I believe the Bible has a story and a lesson to tell. I also believe, the Jews have again failed to learn and follow it.

IDB87
23rd March 2009, 04:21 PM
- the funding was based upon race. Arab v. Jew

Therefore it's racist.

Perhaps.

We also have to consider how population fators into how the funding is allocated. Would it be prudent to allocate equal funds to both the enormous Jewish majority and the Arab minority? Should the money be spent on a 1:1 ratio?

There is about a 900 dollar discrepancy between how much money Jewish students receieve over Arab students, but what does that money pay for?

There are a lot of specifics that need to be addressed.

Doctor Evil
23rd March 2009, 04:27 PM
I believe the Bible has a story and a lesson to tell. I also believe, the Jews have again failed to learn and follow it.

And surprisingly, that lesson would fit your own world view.

By the way, if your are not religious, why the Bible? Why not 'Good Omens'?

Undesired Walrus
23rd March 2009, 04:28 PM
I believe the Bible has a story and a lesson to tell. I also believe, the Jews have again failed to learn and follow it.

I'd dare say most of the problems in the Middle East are the result of people accurately following their Holy Books.

The Fool
23rd March 2009, 04:28 PM
Perhaps.

We also have to consider how population fators into how the funding is allocated. Would it be prudent to allocate equal funds to both the enormous Jewish majority and the Arab minority? Should the money be spent on a 1:1 ratio?

There is about a 900 dollar discrepancy between how much money Jewish students receieve over Arab students, but what does that money pay for?

There are a lot of specifics that need to be addressed.
ok...go ahead and consider how population factors into it....
it is not a case of the largest population getting the most money. It is a per student issue.

you ask what the money pays for? It pays for thier education.

IDB87
23rd March 2009, 04:59 PM
it is not a case of the largest population getting the most money.It is a per student issue.

How is that not the case? Surely a larger population of students will require an appropriate amount of teachers/facilities to accomodate their majority? How would you pay for these teachers/facilities without allocating the bulk of the money to favor Jews over Arabs? That may sound racist, but would be it fisically responsible to spend the money on a 1:1 ratio?


you ask what the money pays for? It pays for thier education.

OK, here's a challenge:

Out of the 1,100 dollars a year that a Jewish student receieves, what is the number one thing that money pays for?

The Fool
23rd March 2009, 05:20 PM
How is that not the case? Surely a larger population of students will require an appropriate amount of teachers/facilities to accomodate their majority? How would you pay for these teachers/facilities without allocating the bulk of the money to favor Jews over Arabs? That may sound racist, but would be it fisically responsible to spend the money on a 1:1 ratio?




OK, here's a challenge:

Out of the 1,100 dollars a year that a Jewish student receieves, what is the number one thing that money pays for?

Its the per student figure that is not the same....ie each jewish studentgets more money allocated than each Arab student. The only criteria being if they are arab or jew... It is irrelevant how many of each there are.

I also can't see the relevance of what the money is specifically spent on. It is spent on funding their education.

IDB87
23rd March 2009, 06:21 PM
Its the per student figure that is not the same....ie each jewish studentgets more money allocated than each Arab student. The only criteria being if they are arab or jew... It is irrelevant how many of each there are.

We're not talking about intergrated schools here, Fool. There are seperate schools (based on language not segregation) for both Jews and Arabs. Each group receieves funding based on their populations. Naturally there are fewer Arab schools than Jewish schools. This means the Israeli government -has- to spend more on the Jewish students because they require the most upkeep and maitenance because they are more numerous (by a huge margin) than their Arab counter-parts.

If the Arabs were the majority in Israel, I would expect to see Israel spending the same amount on them, or working towards integrated schools to make the spending more efficent and worth-while.


I also can't see the relevance of what the money is specifically spent on. It is spent on funding their education.

Funding their education - how? Does any of that money go to teachers/aides? How about to fixing up schools and maintaining them? I'm curious where the money for all of these things come from, if not the amount spent on each student.

X amount spent on books/supplies
X amount spent on teachers pay
X amount spent on school upkeep and maitenance

etc.

The Fool
23rd March 2009, 07:08 PM
We're not talking about intergrated schools here, Fool. There are seperate schools (based on language not segregation) for both Jews and Arabs. Each group receieves funding based on their populations. Naturally there are fewer Arab schools than Jewish schools. This means the Israeli government -has- to spend more on the Jewish students because they require the most upkeep and maitenance because they are more numerous (by a huge margin) than their Arab counter-parts.

If the Arabs were the majority in Israel, I would expect to see Israel spending the same amount on them, or working towards integrated schools to make the spending more efficent and worth-while.




Funding their education - how? Does any of that money go to teachers/aides? How about to fixing up schools and maintaining them? I'm curious where the money for all of these things come from, if not the amount spent on each student.

X amount spent on books/supplies
X amount spent on teachers pay
X amount spent on school upkeep and maitenance

etc.
one last try.

Imagine there are 10 and only ten school students in israel.....8 of which are Jewish and 2 arab. If the education budget was 1000 dollars and equally distributed the per student funding would be 100 dollars. Total spent on Jewish students 800 dollars total spent on arab childeren 200 dollars. More spent on Jews than arabs...true but irrelevant


however...if the funding was set that jewish students got 110 dollars each and arab students got 60 dollars each that adds up to 1000 dollars....more budget spent PER STUDENT on Jews than Arabs...true and discriminatory.I understand and suppport the targeting of additional funding based on needs....but ethnicity?????

are you starting to get an Idea what per student means?

a_unique_person
23rd March 2009, 07:20 PM
Lebanon was carvedf out of the Ottoman Empire, as was Iraq, Syria, Jordan, as well as Israel. Why is Israel so special? Why was the UN expected to accomodate Arab and Muslim racism?

By creating Israel, the right to self determination for Palestinians was subverted, to pay for the sins of the Europeans.

mortimer
23rd March 2009, 07:21 PM
are you starting to get an Idea what per student means?
If it is similar to the US, it means absolutely nothing. I am looking for data to prove it, but I know in my home state of Texas, per-pupil spending on Black students is considerably higher than for White students. Does that mean Texas is racist against Whites?

IDB87
23rd March 2009, 07:32 PM
one last try.

Imagine there are 10 and only ten school students in israel.....8 of which are Jewish and 2 arab. If the education budget was 1000 dollars and equally distributed the per student funding would be 100 dollars. Total spent on Jewish students 800 dollars total spent on arab childeren 200 dollars. More spent on Jews than arabs...true but irrelevant


however...if the funding was set that jewish students got 110 dollars each and arab students got 60 dollars each that adds up to 1000 dollars....more budget spent PER STUDENT on Jews than Arabs...true and discriminatory.I understand and suppport the targeting of additional funding based on needs....but ethnicity?????

are you starting to get an Idea what per student means?

If those 10 children went to the same school I could understand. However, the majority of schools in Israel are largely based on a single ethnicity (Jewish and Arab). You have one school where 8 children study and one school where 2 children study. Both schools were created to accomodate their respective students, not to segregate them. Which school will require a little more money to maintain?

What you should do is find out what needs each set of schools require (the basics if you will). There are several factors that need to be addressed:

Size of the school including maintenance and upkeep. Number of teachers/aides required and their salary. Special programs. Hot lunch programs. School board. Transportation. Extra-curricular activities and their respective faculty. Supplies. Etc.

Now, the eight children will have more demands than the two. A bigger hot-lunch program. Transporation (possibly). A second teacher, or possibly an aid, to help out. One may even be mentaly-handicapped and require further assistance. The list of needs can literally go on and on. But, if you increase the number of people who require an education and respective programs, there will be a need to allocate more money to accomodate those needs.

When the Israeli government says 'We will spend $1,100 on a Jewish student' that $1,100 will be spent on all programs and needs required to maintain such a large majority of Jewish students. When they say 'We will spend $194 on an Arab student' you should, instead of crying racism, find out if that $194 is enough to to ensure that the Arab students receive a proper education.

By the way, do you happen to have the number of Jewish students compared to Arab students?

The Fool
23rd March 2009, 07:34 PM
If it is similar to the US, it means absolutely nothing. I am looking for data to prove it, but I know in my home state of Texas, per-pupil spending on Black students is considerably higher than for White students. Does that mean Texas is racist against Whites?


I accept what you say about differences in pers student funding and assume its targeted funding to adress disadvantage. Something I support. And if Jewish students were a disadvantaged group in Israel I would support higher levels of funding too.


any other ways we can clutch at straws before we have to stop whistling a happy tune and looking the other way?

Arabs in israel suffer racist discrimination in education funding. And apparently many people are comfortable with that.

The Fool
23rd March 2009, 07:41 PM
If those 10 children went to the same school I could understand. However, the majority of schools in Israel are largely based on a single ethnicity (Jewish and Arab). You have one school where 8 children study and one school where 2 children study. Both schools were created to accomodate their respective students, not to segregate them. Which school will require a little more money to maintain?

What you should do is find out what needs each set of schools require (the basics if you will). There are several factors that need to be addressed:

Size of the school including maintenance and upkeep. Number of teachers/aides required and their salary. Special programs. Hot lunch programs. School board. Transportation. Extra-curricular activities and their respective faculty. Supplies. Etc.

Now, the eight children will have more demands than the two. A bigger hot-lunch program. Transporation (possibly). A second teacher, or possibly an aid, to help out. One may even be mentaly-handicapped and require further assistance. The list of needs can literally go on and on. But, if you increase the number of people who require an education and respective programs, there will be a need to allocate more money to accomodate those needs.

When the Israeli government says 'We will spend $1,100 on a Jewish student' that $1,100 will be spent on all programs and needs required to maintain such a large majority of Jewish students. When they say 'We will spend $194 on an Arab student' you should, instead of crying racism, find out if that $194 is enough to to ensure that the Arab students receive a proper education.

By the way, do you happen to have the number of Jewish students compared to Arab students?
sorry, I can see its pointless to continue. you are prepared to clutch onto anything to avoid seeing the elephant....

Your musings that larger numbers of students leads to higher costs per students is honestly laughable. so I may just add economies of scale to per student funding on the list of things you don't (or wont) understand....

IDB87
23rd March 2009, 07:42 PM
Arabs in israel suffer racist discrimination in education funding. And apparently many people are comfortable with that.

Do you have any evidence the education the Arabs receive is below standards and can this be attributed to the amount of funds distributed to their schools?

IDB87
23rd March 2009, 07:50 PM
Your musings that larger numbers of students leads to higher costs per students is honestly laughable. so I may just add economies of scale to per student funding on the list of things you don't (or wont) understand....

Humor me. Explain to me how a larger body of students does not require higher costs to maintain.

Also, can you explain how economy of scale relates to student funding?

Is the $194 Arab students receive not enough?

The Fool
23rd March 2009, 07:52 PM
Do you have any evidence the education the Arabs receive is below standards and can this be attributed to the amount of funds distributed to their schools?
whats next? You want evidence that the sun is hot?

good grief. read up a bit on the topic. Nobody....nobody.... Not even right wing Israelis question the standards of education for arabs is below that of Jewish israelis. It is reality...its out there, Israeli governments have long acknowledged it and talked of fixing it... open the window and look outside.

The Fool
23rd March 2009, 08:04 PM
Humor me. Explain to me how a larger body of students does not require higher costs to maintain.

sigh....per student,per student,per student per student, per student......figure it out.

of course a larger body of students costs more money to maintain...are you being deliberately silly here?


Also, can you explain how economy of scale relates to student funding?

its a basic principle, look it up.



Is the $194 Arab students receive not enough?
no....because its less than other citizens children determined by ethnicity....something you are apparently comfortable with or still believe there is opportunities for denial of...

IDB87
23rd March 2009, 08:30 PM
no....because its less than other citizens children determined by ethnicity....something you are apparently comfortable with or still believe there is opportunities for denial of...

Did you msis the post I made where I agreed that it was a social injustice? I beleive that both Jews and Arabs should receive equal eduacations and opportunities.

You said the Israeli government was talking about fixing the problem. Do you have any evidence they have taken action to comply with the recommendations made by HRW? The last thing I read about the situation was an HRW article dated around 2005, and even they admitted the situation was improving (albeit slowly)

Like I said, it's a social problem that exists in all Western countries. If there was a law on the books stating that 'Arab Israelis shall never receive more than X in funding' that'd be a racist law, which would be relevant to the OP.

The Fool
23rd March 2009, 09:08 PM
Did you msis the post I made where I agreed that it was a social injustice? I beleive that both Jews and Arabs should receive equal eduacations and opportunities.

You said the Israeli government was talking about fixing the problem. Do you have any evidence they have taken action to comply with the recommendations made by HRW? The last thing I read about the situation was an HRW article dated around 2005, and even they admitted the situation was improving (albeit slowly)

Like I said, it's a social problem that exists in all Western countries. If there was a law on the books stating that 'Arab Israelis shall never receive more than X in funding' that'd be a racist law, which would be relevant to the OP.
can you think of an example of a western country that uses ethnicity to determine funding levels? I'm not talking about social problems of disadvantaged groups I'm talking about government funding formulas that are based on ethnicity.

how can you say that "'Arab Israelis shall never receive more than X in funding" yet go all coy about something along the lines of "Arab israelis never recieve as much as Jewish Israelis in funding" please tell me why one is and another isn't racist?'

WildCat
24th March 2009, 07:02 AM
That's right folks. Our great ally, the vanguard of human rights and freedom in the Middle East, the only Western-style freedom-loving country in the Levant...........100% allows racial, religious, and ethnic discrimination.

Where is this racial discrimination allowed? It is allowed in housing, education, and employment.

It is 100% LEGAL in Israel to NOT sell someone a home or NOT rent them an apartment, because of their race. This is a fact.

It is 100% LEGAL in Israel to NOT allow a child to enroll in a kindergarden or nursery, because they are an Arab child. This is a fact.

It is 100% LEGAL to NOT hire someone, because of their race. The State of Israel allows this. No joke..

So folks, never mind the Israeli propaganda, but do we REALLY have common values with Israel? Do we really share common values with a nation that openly allows racial discrimination??

What kind of nation, that has a 2,000 year history of being persecuted, exiled, and murdered, because of racism....allows racism now that they have power and authority?

A nation of hypocrites perhaps?

Only God will judge. And according to the Bible, he does not take kindly to his people being disobedient and arrogant.
Still waiting for parky to back up any of his claims here...

IDB87
24th March 2009, 07:20 AM
can you think of an example of a western country that uses ethnicity to determine funding levels? I'm not talking about social problems of disadvantaged groups I'm talking about government funding formulas that are based on ethnicity.

how can you say that "'Arab Israelis shall never receive more than X in funding" yet go all coy about something along the lines of "Arab israelis never recieve as much as Jewish Israelis in funding" please tell me why one is and another isn't racist?'

As far as it being discriminatory, it's quite obvious. As far as it being legal? Well, according to HRW, the situation is improving. You said yourself that the Israeli governments have talked about fixing the problem. Have they done anything to improve the Arabs education?

As far as examples in a Western country, no, I can't think of a similar situation off the top of my head. But, I'm sure you can find proponents of for a similar argument. I'm sure the NAACP thinks the Black society can be advanced further, and they would argue that discrimination is holding them back.

Pardalis
24th March 2009, 08:58 AM
I will contact human rights organizations that work in Israel tomorrow and find out if there are actually laws that allow racial discrimination in employment, housing, or education.

If I am wrong...I will admit so. But If I am right...I will rub it in your faces.

Shouldn't you have done that before you started this thread?

Alt+F4
24th March 2009, 09:05 AM
In case you missed it, and I appreciate you have a history of not reading posts properly, the funding was based upon race. Arab v. Jew

Therefore it's racist.

Evidence? Are you now an expert on educational funding in Israel and Palestine?

Alt+F4
24th March 2009, 09:20 AM
What about all the Israeli-Arabs that go to Israeli Universities? Funding is per pupil so how is racism being practiced against these students?

Alt+F4
24th March 2009, 09:36 AM
Here's a quote from the HRW study that's critical of Israeli education of Arab-Israeli students, but no cries of racism.

Despite its acknowledgement of past disparities in its report to the Committee on the Rights of the Child, the Israeli government does not officially release data on how much it spends total per Palestinian Arab child compared with how much it spends per Jewish child. There are no separate lines in the budget for Arab education, and when Human Rights Watch requested this information, the Deputy Director General, Head, Economics and Budgeting Administration, in Ministry of Education, on behalf of the ministry's director general, responded: "On the Ministry level (headquarters and districts), the administration, operation and inspection are common to both Hebrew and Arab education. Similarly, there is no budgetary separation. Therefore, I regret that it is not possible for us to determine the exact amount spent on Arab education."

So how can anyone claim it's based on race when the Ministry of Education says there is no budgetary separation between Arab and Hebrew funding levels?


Linky:
http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2001/09/30/second-class-0

The Fool
24th March 2009, 04:11 PM
So how can anyone claim it's based on race when the Ministry of Education says there is no budgetary separation between Arab and Hebrew funding levels?



You are lagging behind a bit. The Israeli government has moved on from denying it and now are using the claim thier bookkeeping methods don't allow them to say what the dollar difference is exactly....... But even they long ago gave up trying to deny it. you should too.


basically, The Israeli government allocates less money per student if that student is not Jewish........and you appear comfortable with that.

Its not a secret, it is plain and in the open, the government does not attempt to deny or hide the fact.

FireGarden
24th March 2009, 04:12 PM
So how can anyone claim it's based on race when the Ministry of Education says there is no budgetary separation between Arab and Hebrew funding levels?


Linky:
http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2001/09/30/second-class-0

Did you even read the abstract?

Nearly one in four of Israel's 1.6 million schoolchildren are educated in a public school system wholly separate from the majority. The children in this parallel school system are Israeli citizens of Palestinian Arab origin. Their schools are a world apart in quality from the public schools serving Israel's majority Jewish population. Often overcrowded and understaffed, poorly built, badly maintained, or simply unavailable, schools for Palestinian Arab children offer fewer facilities and educational opportunities than are offered other Israeli children.

This report is about Israel's discrimination against its Palestinian Arab children in guaranteeing the right to education. The Israeli government operates two separate school systems, one for Jewish children and one for Palestinian Arab children. Discrimination against Palestinian Arab children colors every aspect of the two systems. Education Ministry authorities have acknowledged that the ministry spends less per student in the Arab system than in the Jewish school system.

The majority's schools also receive additional state and state-sponsored private funding for school construction and special programs through other government agencies. The gap is enormous-on every criterion measured by Israeli authorities.

Or the title and subtitle:
Second Class
Discrimination Against Palestinian Arab Children in Israel's Schools

Tin Foil Timothy
24th March 2009, 04:15 PM
Evidence? Are you now an expert on educational funding in Israel and Palestine?

Firstly madam I was referring you to someone else's post. Secondly it's not difficult to find. Although You are already someone with a history of not believing reliable sources so I don't why I am bothering with you.

Israel: Budget Discriminates Against Arab Citizens (http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2004/08/11/israel-budget-discriminates-against-arab-citizens)

Discrimination Against Palestinian Arab Children in Israel's Schools (http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2001/09/30/second-class-0)

Inter-Agency Task Force on Israeli Arab Issues
Task Force Foundation Forum Education Seminar (http://www.iataskforce.org/pdf/Inter-Agency%20Task%20Force%20on%20Israeli%20Arab%20Issu es%20Foundation%20Forum%20Education%20Seminar%20-%206%204%202007.pdf)

Tin Foil Timothy
24th March 2009, 04:20 PM
Did you even read the abstract?

Alt-F4 doesn't even read posts properly, never mind bothering to read links.

She already made herself look really foolish in the Israeli Schoolchildren map thread by calling the BBC news reporter Katya Adler a liar about her reporting of seeing a map of Israel without the West bank marked as a separate territory.

ALt-F4 even opened the BBC link to the article and then claimed a different, unrelated map was not the one in question. The whole exchange was a farce.

I fear you are wasting your time Firegarden. Although it is entertaining watch someone fail so miserably in forum debate. :)

Darth Rotor
24th March 2009, 05:13 PM
As far as there being racial discrimination in Israel, well it's prettuy obvious there is. However, you'll be hard-pressed to find any Western Nation where there isn't any racial bigotry. Whether or not it's santionced by the state is a huge issue.

Why do you, mister bigot, confine this problem to Western Nations? Are Asians unable to be bigots? Are Africans? Is a Hutu calling a Tutsi a cockroach a tea party jest? Are Japanese who refused us "round eyes" entrance into their bar in Rapongi justified do to the shape of their eyes?

DR

IDB87
24th March 2009, 05:35 PM
Why do you, mister bigot, confine this problem to Western Nations? Are Asians unable to be bigots? Are Africans? Is a Hutu calling a Tutsi a cockroach a tea party jest? Are Japanese who refused us "round eyes" entrance into their bar in Rapongi justified do to the shape of their eyes?

DR

You know, I was going to say something along those lines, but figured it would be a bit platitudinous of me.

A good example of Israel's discrimination can be paralleled with our own rather recent and, to some, still on going issues of racial bigotry.

Alt+F4
25th March 2009, 07:10 AM
Alt-F4 doesn't even read posts properly, never mind bothering to read links.

She already made herself look really foolish in the Israeli Schoolchildren map thread by calling the BBC news reporter Katya Adler a liar about her reporting of seeing a map of Israel without the West bank marked as a separate territory.

ALt-F4 even opened the BBC link to the article and then claimed a different, unrelated map was not the one in question. The whole exchange was a farce.

I fear you are wasting your time Firegarden. Although it is entertaining watch someone fail so miserably in forum debate. :)

Heheheh. You're amusing. Still can't find that map or video, can you?

Alt+F4
25th March 2009, 07:16 AM
Did you even read the abstract?

Or the title and subtitle:
Second Class
Discrimination Against Palestinian Arab Children in Israel's Schools

Did you read post #39, in which I quoted from the same report (I believe from chapter 5)? The report seems to contradict itself, stating one thing in the abstract, another in the report itself.

Alt+F4
25th March 2009, 07:23 AM
calling the BBC news reporter Katya Adler a liar

Please link to the post where I called Katya Adler a liar.

Edited for Rule 12.

Beerina
25th March 2009, 07:48 AM
That's right folks. Our great ally, the vanguard of human rights and freedom in the Middle East, the only Western-style freedom-loving country in the Levant...........100% allows racial, religious, and ethnic discrimination.

Where is this racial discrimination allowed? It is allowed in housing, education, and employment.

It is 100% LEGAL in Israel to NOT sell someone a home or NOT rent them an apartment, because of their race. This is a fact.

It is 100% LEGAL in Israel to NOT allow a child to enroll in a kindergarden or nursery, because they are an Arab child. This is a fact.

It is 100% LEGAL to NOT hire someone, because of their race. The State of Israel allows this. No joke..

So folks, never mind the Israeli propaganda, but do we REALLY have common values with Israel? Do we really share common values with a nation that openly allows racial discrimination??

What kind of nation, that has a 2,000 year history of being persecuted, exiled, and murdered, because of racism....allows racism now that they have power and authority?

A nation of hypocrites perhaps?

Only God will judge. And according to the Bible, he does not take kindly to his people being disobedient and arrogant.




How do the surrounding Muslim nations handle ethnic, racial, and religious discrimination?

The Fool
25th March 2009, 04:03 PM
How do the surrounding Muslim nations handle ethnic, racial, and religious discrimination?
much the same...or worse. But they don't seem to demand that the rest of the world state that they recognise thier right to do it. Thats a particularly Israeli thing that I always find bemusing.

The Fool
25th March 2009, 04:08 PM
Did you read post #39, in which I quoted from the same report (I believe from chapter 5)? The report seems to contradict itself, stating one thing in the abstract, another in the report itself.


can I just clarify something? Are you still at the denial stage regarding discrimination in the Israeli education system?

bigjelmapro
26th March 2009, 01:59 AM
Still obsessed that the entire education system in Israel is discriminatory based on a few maps in a handful of schools.

On and on we trudge on...

The Fool
26th March 2009, 05:20 AM
Still obsessed that the entire education system in Israel is discriminatory based on a few maps in a handful of schools.

On and on we trudge on...
a few maps and a handful of schools?

shall we ignore the rest?

Honestly...be brave enough to say you support its current structure if thats the case but lets drop the denials that even the Israeli government doesn't bother with any more....They put their hands up to this one ages ago.

may be time to drag out an "israel is not perfect" and start whistling a happy tune again.

WildCat
26th March 2009, 05:39 AM
So, has parky posted evidence that any of his claims in the OP are actually true? No? I'm shocked, shocked, shocked I tell you! It's so unlike parky to spout off without having his facts straight...

Cobalt
26th March 2009, 05:44 AM
Well remember, WildCat, that as long as you follow up whatever you say with "This is a fact," it's true.

Assuming racial discrimination is in fact legal, what is anyone else supposed to do about it?

IDB87
26th March 2009, 01:55 PM
So, has parky posted evidence that any of his claims in the OP are actually true? No? I'm shocked, shocked, shocked I tell you! It's so unlike parky to spout off without having his facts straight...

Well, his original claim was that he was going to call some human rights groups in Israel the day after he made this thread.

The day after came, and no confirmation.

I asked him about this, and he said he'd call the next day.

Two days later, nothing.

*shrugg*

The Fool
26th March 2009, 06:14 PM
Assuming racial discrimination is in fact legal, what is anyone else supposed to do about it?
nothing it seems....

but for those who just can't force the words "I support racism" out of thier mouths they have to look the other way and not see whats happening.....or deny it. Just plain deny it....thats always a good fallback until the issue drops off page 1. You can then use the same routine the next time someone refers to the racist practices.

Most people don't support racism. However, a lot of people seem ok with Israel doing it.

IDB87
26th March 2009, 06:35 PM
nothing it seems....

but for those who just can't force the words "I support racism" out of thier mouths they have to look the other way and not see whats happening.....or deny it. Just plain deny it....thats always a good fallback until the issue drops off page 1. You can then use the same routine the next time someone refers to the racist practices.

Most people don't support racism. However, a lot of people seem ok with Israel doing it.

Fool,

Has Israel made any progress (however small) towards ending racial discrimination in the education sector?

Alt+F4
26th March 2009, 06:45 PM
Are you still at the denial stage regarding discrimination in the Israeli education system?

Nope. Is discrimination and racism (this thread) the same thing?

Tin Foil Timothy
26th March 2009, 07:35 PM
Please link to the post where I called Katya Adler a liar.


Edited for Rule 12.

I've reported your pathetic, immature and vile personal attack above. Such a comment really exposes you for what you are!!

Katya Adler reports she saw the map. You deny the map exists, therefore you are calling Katya Adler a liar.

Tin Foil Timothy
26th March 2009, 07:37 PM
Nope.

So you agree that the racial discrimination exists then? This is a start. Although you completely blew your credibility on this forum by disgustingly shouting 'Jew Hater' - You should be ashamed of yourself!!!

Puppycow
26th March 2009, 11:36 PM
are you denying that racial discrimination is legal in Israel? is that what you are saying?

http://www.acri.org.il/eng/story.aspx?id=628

http://www.acri.org.il/eng/Story.aspx?id=249

According to the second one, Rabbis are paid by the government (and, incidentally Etheopian rabbis are paid less).

No separation of church and state. Yeah, that kind of goes against my values anyway. And besides race, Israel discriminates based on religion.

Well, that's actually the whole point of the state of Israel, and while I am aware of the Jews' special historical circumstances, I am still against any Theocracy on principle, whether Christian, Islamic, Jewish or Pastafarian. I happen to think Jews are very safe in, for example, the US (or as safe as anyone else) which is a secular, religiously neutral democracy. The idea that Jews are safer in Israel than in the US seems to be dubious.

Gangularis
27th March 2009, 01:36 AM
The answer to segregation is *more* segregation.. Awesome.

The Fool
27th March 2009, 03:26 AM
Nope. Is discrimination and racism (this thread) the same thing?
depends on the rules of the discrimination.....based on Height it would be Heightist, based on weight it would be weightist. What do you think it would be if its based on ....lets say......race?

The Fool
27th March 2009, 03:36 AM
Fool,

Has Israel made any progress (however small) towards ending racial discrimination in the education sector?

Absolutely. Their Judiciary has been sticking it to the executive about it for a while. The executive says they are doing the best they can and all credit to the real progress they have made. It costs a lot of money.

On the other hand I don't see it as a big ask to simply legislate against the practice. Rather than "doing the best you can" which seems to not include eliminating it.

They could also make the practice impossible if the Government simply failed to insist on compulsory identification and classification into Jew and Non Jew of its "full and equal" citizens. If they are full and equal citizens why does it matter? Now there is an Idea eh?

Alt+F4
27th March 2009, 06:05 AM
depends on the rules of the discrimination.....based on Height it would be Heightist, based on weight it would be weightist. What do you think it would be if its based on ....lets say......race?

In this case is it race or religion?

WildCat
27th March 2009, 06:23 AM
According to the second one, Rabbis are paid by the government (and, incidentally Etheopian rabbis are paid less).

No separation of church and state. Yeah, that kind of goes against my values anyway. And besides race, Israel discriminates based on religion.

Well, that's actually the whole point of the state of Israel, and while I am aware of the Jews' special historical circumstances, I am still against any Theocracy on principle, whether Christian, Islamic, Jewish or Pastafarian. I happen to think Jews are very safe in, for example, the US (or as safe as anyone else) which is a secular, religiously neutral democracy. The idea that Jews are safer in Israel than in the US seems to be dubious.
Puppycow, Israel is secular. "The Jewish state" refers to ethnic Jews, there is no religious test. It's no different than Ireland's immigration laws which favor the Irish disapora.

Tin Foil Timothy
27th March 2009, 12:22 PM
In this case is it race or religion?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

I nearly spat my coffee out when I read that? I can't believe anyone would continue to argue against an obvious and proved racist discrimination to the death.

Next you'll be asking 'Ah but what flavor of racist is it?'

The Fool
27th March 2009, 05:21 PM
In this case is it race or religion?\
Israel uses the two interchangeably depending on which is convenient.


School funding has nothing to do with your belief or non belief in a god.....It has to do with who your mother is. Does that sound like race or religion to you?

Tin Foil Timothy
27th March 2009, 05:50 PM
Edited for quoted post, and off topic content. When you make a report, do not derail a thread with bickering over it.

Tin Foil Timothy
27th March 2009, 05:52 PM
\
Israel uses the two interchangeably depending on which is convenient.


School funding has nothing to do with your belief or non belief in a god.....It has to do with who your mother is. Does that sound like race or religion to you?

I'm beginning to believe that ALT+F4 doesn't actually know the difference.

The_Animus
27th March 2009, 06:41 PM
Such a pedantic derail of nonsense will never wash. Some of us are talking on the humanitarian level. if you want to excuse racism by an absurdly ridiculous claim that race doesn't exist based upon some pedantic nomenclature then that only speaks volumes about your own agenda.

It's as bad as claiming that being anti-'semite' is also anti-arab. And that's another nonsense that periodically gets posted by people obviously without the necessary qualifications for forum debate.

:cool: I'm always amused by the inability of people to demonstrate basic reading comprehension skills. Nowhere in my entire post did I say I support or excuse racism. In fact someone using those great reading comprehension skills and the understanding that my information came from a Bill Nye science show would logically come to the conclusion that the statements I made provide that there is absolutely no basis for racial discrimination. How can you justify discrimination of race when race is a made up social construct?

Also I have no agenda, but I'm glad you can invent volumes for it.

The Fool
27th March 2009, 09:46 PM
:cool: I'm always amused by the inability of people to demonstrate basic reading comprehension skills. Nowhere in my entire post did I say I support or excuse racism. In fact someone using those great reading comprehension skills and the understanding that my information came from a Bill Nye science show would logically come to the conclusion that the statements I made provide that there is absolutely no basis for racial discrimination. How can you justify discrimination of race when race is a made up social construct?

Also I have no agenda, but I'm glad you can invent volumes for it.

Please be aware that in virtually every thread on a racist topic will attract some clown who presents the claim that the presented example cannot be racist because everyone is the same race. I think you may have been mistaken for one of those clowns...

Tin Foil Timothy
27th March 2009, 10:57 PM
How can you justify discrimination of race when race is a made up social construct?



Unbelievable!!

Firstly there is such thing as race, despite your ridiculous assertions.

Secondly even if it was a social construct it would still exist.

I suppose you're going to claim the Nazi's behaviour towards the Jews and other groups wasn't racist under the same nonsense criteria?

The claim there is no race takes the biscuit as being the most absurd ever.

You stay in your own pedantic bubble but the rest of the world has the ability to distinguish between different races.

It's a laugh a minute in here.

chillzero
28th March 2009, 09:06 AM
Stop bickering, and keep it civil. Do not personalise discussions, and keep your comments on topic - not personal attacks.

The_Animus
28th March 2009, 01:20 PM
Firstly there is such thing as race, despite your ridiculous assertions.


Evidence? Please provide a scientific basis for distinctive races.

Tin Foil Timothy
28th March 2009, 01:34 PM
Evidence? Please provide a scientific basis for distinctive races.

Oh that's easy. Look at a picture, for an example, of an average chinese person, Caucasian person and an afro-american person. The rest of us can see plenty of objective distinctions.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_human_beings)

"The term race or racial group usually refers to the categorization of humans into populations or groups on the basis of various sets of heritable characteristics. The most widely used human racial categories are based on salient traits (especially skin color, cranial or facial features and hair texture), and self-identification."

You OTOH are happy to claim these differences are just social constructs if you like.

Skin color is a social construct!!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! In that case I'm going to get the friends in my social circle to deem my skin color is blue. Should be fun at parties!!

The_Animus
28th March 2009, 02:13 PM
Oh that's easy. Look at a picture, for an example, of an average chinese person, Caucasian person and an afro-american person. The rest of us can see plenty of objective distinctions.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_human_beings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28classification_of_human_beings))

"The term race or racial group usually refers to the categorization of humans into populations or groups on the basis of various sets of heritable characteristics. The most widely used human racial categories are based on salient traits (especially skin color, cranial or facial features and hair texture), and self-identification."

You OTOH are happy to claim these differences are just social constructs if you like.

Skin color is a social construct!!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! In that case I'm going to get the friends in my social circle to deem my skin color is blue. Should be fun at parties!!

Is that really what race is? Physical characteristics which are inherited by being passed on genetically? If you intend to do that then you must do so for all physically inherited traits. Height, weight, eye color, hair color, hitchhikers thumb, the way your legs bend. This gentleman is a caucasian tallian, skinnyman, of the blue iris descent.

Here are some lovely facts for you from:
http://www.pbs.org/race/001_WhatIsRace/001_00-home.htm

Race is a modern Idea. Ancient societies did not divide people according to physical differences, but according to religion, status, class, even language.Race has no genetic basis. Not one characteristic, trait, or gene distinguishes all members of one so-called race from all members of another so-called race.Human Subspecies don't exist. Unlike many animals, modern humans have not been around long enough, nor have populations been isolated enough, to evolve into separate subspecies or races. Despite surface differences we are all among the most similar of all species.Skin color is only skin deep. Most traits are inherited independently of one another. The genes for skin color have nothing to do with genes for hair texture, eye shape, blood type, musical talent, or athletic ability.Skin color tends to correlate with sunlight and latitude, not "race".Race is a social construct and has no scientific basis. The "evidence" you've provided is only evidence of a socially constructed race.

I'll ask again. Please provide a scientific basis for distinctive races.

Tin Foil Timothy
28th March 2009, 02:23 PM
Race is a modern Idea. - So? The earth being spherical is a modern idea too.
Race has no genetic basis. - So? Doesn't mean race doesn't exist.
Human Subspecies don't exist. - So? Doesn't mean race doesn't exist.
Skin color is only skin deep. - no ****

You're just digging a bigger hole for yourself.

Now off you go and try persuade the whole world to change it's definition of race. Show them a picture of a chinaman and an african and tell them race doesnt' exist.
Come back when you've succeeded. I won't be holding my breath.

There's always one isn't there? :roll:

The_Animus
28th March 2009, 02:32 PM
Race is a modern Idea. - So? The earth being spherical is a modern idea too.
Race has no genetic basis. - So? Doesn't mean race doesn't exist.
Human Subspecies don't exist. - So? Doesn't mean race doesn't exist.
Skin color is only skin deep. - no ****

You're just digging a bigger hole for yourself.

Now off you go and try persuade the whole world to change it's definition of race. Show them a picture of a chinaman and an african and tell them race doesnt' exist.
Come back when you've succeeded. I won't be holding my breath.

There's always one isn't there? :roll:

Still waiting for that scientific basis for distinctive races. Getting nervous that you can't find one?

Ode to Timothy

I'm sorry to say Mr. Timothy
but it seems to me you just can't see
That there is no basis
to be a racist
for there's no race scientifically

You try to tell me that race is real
And not just a socially constructed ideal
but you just throw insults
Instead of give results
So I must ask, what's the deal?

Why oh why Mr. Timothy
Will you not provide your evidence to me?
Is it a personal quirk?
Or maybe you're at work?
Or is it that you don't have any?

The Fool
28th March 2009, 02:46 PM
Still waiting for that scientific basis for distinctive races. Getting nervous that you can't find one?
Just curious but has this semantic argument that gets introduced every single time a racist topic is discussed got anything to do with the topic of the thread?

Are you claiming that your quite correct statement that there are only one living race of humans got anything to do with racist practices in the Israeli education system?


racism is based on the word race...but relates to a human behavior its not a word game.

Thunder
28th March 2009, 02:52 PM
Just curious but has this semantic argument that gets introduced every single time a racist topic is discussed got anything to do with the topic of the thread?
.

Its a frequent tool of Neo-Zionists. Accuse Israel of racism and they charge that many Jews and Arabs are of the same race..and race doesn't exist. Accuse Israel of religious discrimination..and they charge it can't be so since many Israeli Jews are not religious. Charge Israel with ethnic discrimination and they say the Palestinians are not an ethnic group.

Its called being an idiot.

Thunder
28th March 2009, 02:53 PM
Still waiting for that scientific basis for distinctive races. Getting nervous that you can't find one?

According to the United Nations, ethnic discrimination can also be considered a form of racism.

Tin Foil Timothy
28th March 2009, 03:03 PM
Its a frequent tool of Neo-Zionists. Accuse Israel of racism and they charge that many Jews and Arabs are of the same race..and race doesn't exist. Accuse Israel of religious discrimination..and they charge it can't be so since many Israeli Jews are not religious. Charge Israel with ethnic discrimination and they say the Palestinians are not an ethnic group.

Its called being an idiot.

It is indeed. But of course we can't say that directly as it's against the forum rules.

However it is allowed to say the argument is idiotic. Which it is. Completely idiotic.

Thunder
28th March 2009, 03:05 PM
It is indeed. But of course we can't say that directly as it's against he forum rules.

However it is allowed to say the argument is idiotic. Which it is. Completely idiotic.

Yes. There is nothing wrong with calling the arguments, beliefs, ideas, agendas, etc..of Neo-Zionists, right-wing Israelis, and Judeo-fascists "idiotic".

Tin Foil Timothy
28th March 2009, 03:06 PM
Still waiting for that scientific basis for distinctive races. Getting nervous that you can't find one?

Ode to Timothy

I'm sorry to say Mr. Timothy
but it seems to me you just can't see
That there is no basis
to be a racist
for there's no race scientifically

You try to tell me that race is real
And not just a socially constructed ideal
but you just throw insults
Instead of give results
So I must ask, what's the deal?

Why oh why Mr. Timothy
Will you not provide your evidence to me?
Is it a personal quirk?
Or maybe you're at work?
Or is it that you don't have any?

Grow up.

Because no one is taking your ridiculous claim that racism doesn't exist seriously you resort to childish personal attacks. The hilarious irony of your signature "Insults come when a person cannot think of an intelligent response." - perhaps you should adhere to your own advice?

Thunder
28th March 2009, 03:08 PM
Still waiting for that scientific basis for distinctive races. Getting nervous that you can't find one?

Ode to Timothy

I'm sorry to say Mr. Timothy
but it seems to me you just can't see
That there is no basis
to be a racist
for there's no race scientifically

You try to tell me that race is real
And not just a socially constructed ideal
but you just throw insults
Instead of give results
So I must ask, what's the deal?

Why oh why Mr. Timothy
Will you not provide your evidence to me?
Is it a personal quirk?
Or maybe you're at work?
Or is it that you don't have any?

I just took a New York City Civil Service test today. The answer sheet asked me to list my "race". And I did.

:D

Tin Foil Timothy
28th March 2009, 03:14 PM
Its a frequent tool of Neo-Zionists. Accuse Israel of racism and they charge that many Jews and Arabs are of the same race..and race doesn't exist. Accuse Israel of religious discrimination..and they charge it can't be so since many Israeli Jews are not religious. Charge Israel with ethnic discrimination and they say the Palestinians are not an ethnic group.

Its called being an idiot.

Animus must be quite pleased with himself that he's derailed most of the thread to try and avoid focus upon Israel's racism by contaminating it with nonsense arguments as to why racism isn't possible

Perhaps Animus would like to discuss the actual topic .... "Racial discrimination is LEGAL in Israel"

The_Animus
28th March 2009, 03:14 PM
Just curious but has this semantic argument that gets introduced every single time a racist topic is discussed got anything to do with the topic of the thread?

Are you claiming that your quite correct statement that there are only one living race of humans got anything to do with racist practices in the Israeli education system?


racism is based on the word race...but relates to a human behavior its not a word game.

It has everything to do with this thread. Race is entirely made up. It is a lie that was created and that has been passed down to successive generations. It is a lie used by those who desire power, wealth, or something else as a means of getting it by blaming problems on this or that race. It's an imaginary scapegoat. The social construct of race exists, and it is very prevalent in our world. The same is true of homeopathy, but neither one has any real scientific basis. Why continue to encourage the idea that it is anything to the contrary? Should we just legitimize homeopathy because the world likes to pretend it exists? I am of the opinion that the continued use of race as a real thing by governments, religions, the media, the education system, etc. only legitimizes this fictitious concept.

Its a frequent tool of Neo-Zionists. Accuse Israel of racism and they charge that many Jews and Arabs are of the same race..and race doesn't exist. Accuse Israel of religious discrimination..and they charge it can't be so since many Israeli Jews are not religious. Charge Israel with ethnic discrimination and they say the Palestinians are not an ethnic group.

Its called being an idiot.

Please point to any post of mine in which I propose any of the things you mentioned. Or stop making things up and actually read the posts of the person you are verbally abusing.

According to the United Nations, ethnic discrimination can also be considered a form of racism.

Okay. This is another example of evidence of socially constructed race. This still has nothing to do with a scientific basis for race.

The_Animus
28th March 2009, 03:17 PM
Grow up.

Because no one is taking your ridiculous claim that racism doesn't exist seriously you resort to childish personal attacks. The hilarious irony of your signature "Insults come when a person cannot think of an intelligent response." - perhaps you should adhere to your own advice?

There was no insult in that entire post. Unless pointing out your inability and unwillingness to back up your claims with evidence is an insult.

The_Animus
28th March 2009, 03:22 PM
Animus must be quite pleased with himself that he's derailed most of the thread to try and avoid focus upon Israel's racism by contaminating it with nonsense arguments as to why racism isn't possible

Perhaps Animus would like to discuss the actual topic .... "Racial discrimination is LEGAL in Israel"

More strawmen. I never said racism isn't possible. I said there is no scientific basis for race and therefore racism. You disagreed and have since been unable to provide evidence. I'm still waiting.

Thunder
28th March 2009, 03:25 PM
Racism is entirely made up. It is a lie that was created and that has been passed down to successive generations.

Some say the same thing about anti-Semitism. That its just a tool used by Neo-Zionists to disregard any and all criticism of Israel.

Thunder
28th March 2009, 03:27 PM
Racism is real. If a white person hates black people, he is a racist. Case closed.

The scientific basis behind "race" may be suspect, but it cannot be doubted that many people do hate others because of their "race". This is racism.

Tin Foil Timothy
28th March 2009, 03:30 PM
More strawmen. I never said racism isn't possible. I said there is no scientific basis for race and therefore racism. You disagreed and have since been unable to provide evidence. I'm still waiting.

You even contradict yourself.

"That there is no basis to be a racist"

Of course I provided evidence. Just look at a picture of people of different races. They provide all the scientific evidence anyone needs. The whole recognizes the concept of 'race' - Well apart from those whose agenda it is to derail threads charging Israel of racism with the ridiculous assertion that race doesn't exist therefor Israel can't commit racism.

Your arguments in this context are a complete joke. And your agenda is quite clear.

Tin Foil Timothy
28th March 2009, 03:34 PM
Racism is real. If a white person hates black people, he is a racist. Case closed.

Quite.

It's no use arguing with this person Parky. He's completely deluded and obviously is so entrenched in derailing any criticisms of Israel that he actually believes all the nonsense about race doesn't' exist. I'm sure Ehud Barak actually believes the crap about Israel having the most moral army in the world as well.

I can't believe we're even entertaining these absurd arguments. It's like talking to a flat earther. Perhaps it's getting close to choosing the ADL Employee of the Month?

The_Animus
28th March 2009, 03:34 PM
Some say the same thing about anti-Semitism. That its just a tool used by Neo-Zionists to disregard any and all criticism of Israel.

I actually edited my post just before you posted your response. I had meant to say that Race is entirely made up. And therefore discrimination based on race, which is what racism is, has absolutely no scientific basis.

Thunder
28th March 2009, 03:36 PM
I actually edited my post just before you posted your response. I had meant to say that Race is entirely made up. And therefore discrimination based on race, which is what racism is, has absolutely no scientific basis.

Thats nice. But white people still hate black people and vice-versa. That is racism.

Jews still hate Arabs. That is racism.

Croats still hate Serbs. That is racism.

So lets move on, shall we?

The_Animus
28th March 2009, 03:56 PM
You even contradict yourself.

"That there is no basis to be a racist"

Of course I provided evidence. Just look at a picture of people of different races. They provide all the scientific evidence anyone needs. The whole recognizes the concept of 'race' - Well apart from those whose agenda it is to derail threads charging Israel of racism with the ridiculous assertion that race doesn't exist therefor Israel can't commit racism.

Your arguments in this context are a complete joke. And your agenda is quite clear.

This will be my last response to your posts. I asked for scientifically based evidence to show race exists. You gave me evidence, (in the form of a wikipedia article :rolleyes:) that socially constructed race exists. I gave you evidence that physical appearance is not scientifically based evidence of race and further evidence that there is no scientific basis for race. You then refused to even address my evidence and have since only provided thinly veiled insults and hyperbole. You essentially stepped back from trying to support your claim that there is scientific basis for race and instead only want to look at socially constructed race, which I said from the beginning exists. So how about you concede that there is no scientific basis for race or show some evidence to the contrary.

Lastly you, along with parky now, continue to create the idea that I have some sort of agenda. That I'm some neo-zionist, or whatever. :rolleyes:

I don't have a preference for Israel or Israelis, or for Palestine or Palestinians. I don't care whether someone is Jewish, or Muslim, or a Semite or Arab. I have no agenda. As far as I'm concerned all those actively engaged in the conflict are idiots vying for power or brainwashed by someone vying for power.

But whatever. You go ahead and create and attribute all the labels and agendas you want to me. They are about as real as the scientific basis for race.

It's like talking to a flat earther.

Actually in this conversation you would be the flat earther. I propose based on science that the earth is round (that there is no basis in science for race). You propose that because people act as if the earth is flat, it is flat (as if there is race, there is race).

I appreciate the irony though.

Tin Foil Timothy
28th March 2009, 03:57 PM
Thats nice. But white people still hate black people and vice-versa. That is racism.

Jews still hate Arabs. That is racism.

Croats still hate Serbs. That is racism.

I understood that clearly Parky. Will animus?



So lets move on, shall we?

Indeed. If the thread is going to be derailed to divert attention away from Israel's atrocities and racism at least lets find a credible excuse.

This will be my last response to your posts.

Thank G-d for that!!!

Thunder
28th March 2009, 04:01 PM
I appreciate the irony though.

Great. Now we can move on.

The_Animus
28th March 2009, 04:03 PM
Thats nice. But white people still hate black people and vice-versa. That is racism.

Jews still hate Arabs. That is racism.

Croats still hate Serbs. That is racism.

So lets move on, shall we?

White people do hate black people. But for it to be racism there has to be race. To hate the black person because he is black and call it racism would have to mean that the black person is a different race than the white person. That his black skin makes him of a different race than the white person. Science tells us this is not the case. They are of the same race. If you want to claim him racist, he'd be racist not just against the black man, but himself and all of the human race.

You can hate someone because of his skin color, the music they like, their name, their religion, where they live, but none of that has anything to do with race.

Thunder
28th March 2009, 04:12 PM
The troll is now on Ignore.

Tin Foil Timothy
28th March 2009, 05:24 PM
The troll is now on Ignore.

Same here. That last post of his was hilarious and incredulous

Anyway on with the topic

Parky did you manage to find any more sources for the racial discrimination in Israel?

The Fool
28th March 2009, 05:34 PM
It has everything to do with this thread. Race is entirely made up. It is a lie that was created and that has been passed down to successive generations. It is a lie used by those who desire power, wealth, or something else as a means of getting it by blaming problems on this or that race. It's an imaginary scapegoat. The social construct of race exists, and it is very prevalent in our world. The same is true of homeopathy, but neither one has any real scientific basis. Why continue to encourage the idea that it is anything to the contrary? Should we just legitimize homeopathy because the world likes to pretend it exists? I am of the opinion that the continued use of race as a real thing by governments, religions, the media, the education system, etc. only legitimizes this fictitious concept.



Please point to any post of mine in which I propose any of the things you mentioned. Or stop making things up and actually read the posts of the person you are verbally abusing.



Okay. This is another example of evidence of socially constructed race. This still has nothing to do with a scientific basis for race.

I think I'm starting to get your point....You find the word racism annoying because it contains the word race?

You much prefer your own scientific definition of race rather that the common usage of the term throughout the world....

Are you also annoyed by the word terrific because it no longer is used do talk about terror?

If the whole world was to decide it stop calling it racism and start calling it stupidism...would that make you happy?

could we then get on and discuss the stupidism inherent in the Israeli education system without the long-winded derails?

Puppycow
28th March 2009, 06:18 PM
Puppycow, Israel is secular. "The Jewish state" refers to ethnic Jews, there is no religious test. It's no different than Ireland's immigration laws which favor the Irish disapora.

How can it be "secular" if the government pays rabbis? Compared to the US, it is a theocracy.

Puppycow
28th March 2009, 06:54 PM
A scientific basis for race (http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/01/the_scientific_.html)
Excerpt:
The exact definition of the metric and the allele labeling is somewhat arbitrary, but you can see it is easy to define a meaningful measure of how far apart any two individuals are in genome space.

Now plot the genome of each human as a point on our lattice. Not surprisingly, there are readily identifiable clusters of points, corresponding to traditional continental ethnic groups: Europeans, Africans, Asians, Native Americans, etc. (See, for example, Risch et al., Am. J. Hum. Genet. 76:268–275, 2005.) Of course, we can get into endless arguments about how we define European or Asian, and of course there is substructure within the clusters, but it is rather obvious that there are identifiable groupings, and as the Risch study shows, they correspond very well to self-identified notions of race.

mortimer
28th March 2009, 08:44 PM
How can it be "secular" if the government pays rabbis? Compared to the US, it is a theocracy.
The U.S. government pays religious leaders. It's called tax-exempt here.

Wowbagger
28th March 2009, 09:03 PM
I wanna see the laws that indicate racial discrimination is legal in Israel, for myself. How come no one's cited any, yet?

Cobalt
28th March 2009, 09:06 PM
I wanna see the laws that indicate racial discrimination is legal in Israel, for myself. How come no one's cited any, yet?

Shhhh, maybe if we let this one continue, we won't see another thirty thousand threads about Israel.

a_unique_person
28th March 2009, 09:08 PM
The U.S. government pays religious leaders. It's called tax-exempt here.

That's not the same. Tax exemption is not payment, and such exemptions are available for other non-business activities, the JREF for example.

Thunder
28th March 2009, 09:15 PM
Puppycow, Israel is secular. .

Oh...really?

Don't make me laugh.

FireGarden
29th March 2009, 01:20 AM
I wanna see the laws that indicate racial discrimination is legal in Israel, for myself. How come no one's cited any, yet?

I posted a bit here on JNF policy of selling land only to Jews:
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4542844&postcount=49

An Arab family, the Kadans, eventually won a court case regarding buying land in a Jewish neighbourhood.

On the other hand, the JNF was supported in July 2007 by a Knesset vote. However, according to Forward, that vote didn't make law:
http://www.forward.com/articles/11246/

The legislation, introduced by three Israeli Knesset members, passed last week in a vote of 64-16 in its first reading. In order for the bill, which would bar JNF lands from falling into Arab hands, to officially become law, it needs to come before the Knesset two more times.

This week, the Reform Movement joined a growing chorus of calls from left-wing Jewish groups roundly condemning the bill as racist and undemocratic.

[...] In 2005, Israeli Attorney General Menachem Mazuz ruled in favor of a preliminary court decision mandating that the ILA cannot discriminate against Arab citizens by leasing only to Jews. The court hearing was a response to a petition filed by the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, a legal group that defends civil rights in the Jewish state.

The recent Knesset bill is widely viewed as a means of circumventing the attorney general’s previous decision. It also may serve as a way of pre-empting an upcoming September court hearing on ACRI’s 2005 petition, according to the group’s chief legal counsel, Dan Yakir.

Apparently fearing loss in the courts, the JNF offered a compromise in Sept 2007:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/906704.html

The High Court of Justice on Monday delayed its ruling on whether the Jewish National Fund should be obligated to sell its land to non-Jews by at least four months, in order to give the JNF time to reach an agreement with the Attorney General.

The JNF asked the court to delay the ruling, after JNF and Israel Lands Association representatives agreed last Thursday to temporarily implement a proposal by Attorney General Menachem Mazuz that JNF lands be marketed to any potential customer, without discrimination based on ethnicity.

In exchange, any time JNF land is sold to a non-Jew, the ILA will compensate it with other land, thereby ensuring that the overall amount of Jewish-owned land in Israel remains the same.

[...] The JNF has long insisted that its lands be sold only to Jews, due to the fact that the land was purchased with money from Jewish donors for the purpose of settling Jews in the Land of Israel.

This "tactical retreat" reportedly stems from the JNF's concern that the High Court will issue a precedent-setting ruling in response to a 2004 petition filed by Adalah, the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel.

Adalah rejected the JNF's declaration on Monday, saying it would appeal it in court.

Adalah Director Hassan Jabareen said the JNF has had enough time in the 3 years since his organization submitted the petition to reach a conclusive, long-term decision, rather than offer a temporary 3-month arrangement.

[...] Adalah petitioned the court on behalf of Arab citizens who were refused permission to bid on an Israel Lands Administration (ILA) tender for residential housing lots in Carmiel. The potential purchasers were told that the land belonged to the JNF, and was therefore intended only for Jewish use. The Association for Civil Rights in Israel and several Arab rights organizations supported the petition.


YNET has an article on the same events:
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3452802,00.html

They also have an opinion piece from Oct 2008:
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3609782,00.html

I thought that this was interesting:

Several years ago, Eliezer Avitan petitioned the courts over his demand to lease a plot at a Bedouin community in the Negev. The High Court rejected his petition and ruled that the value of equality is pushed aside in the face of the State’s interest to settle Bedouins at permanent communities. That is, a Jew is not allowed to lease a plot in a Bedouin community because he is Jewish. Moreover, it would be unthinkable for land belonging to the Muslim Waqf to be sold to Jews. After all, this land is earmarked for Muslims alone. Yet in those cases, the petitioners in the latest case left their black flag at home.

I don't know much about this source:
http://www.israelactivism.com/factsheet/271/

sometimes Israeli Arabs receive more favorable terms from the ILA than do Israeli Jews. Thus, for example, in new Jewish communities near Beersheva the ILA charged $24,000 for a capital lease on a quarter of an acre, while at the same time Bedouin families in the nearby community of Rahat paid only $150 for the same amount of land. (Israel's Dilemma, Shapolsky Publications, p. 97, 1989)

In another case a Jewish citizen applied to the ILA to lease land in a new Bedouin community under the same favorable, highly subsidized terms available to the Bedouins.

When the ILA refused to lease him land in the community under any circumstances, he sued. In Avitan v. Israel Land Administration (HC 528/88) the High Court ruled that ILA discrimination against the Jewish citizen Avitan was justified as affirmative action for Bedouin citizens. (Legal Status of the Arabs in Israel, p. 81)

There are hardly any Jews in Rahat according to wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahat

Dated 1997, the Israelactivism link also mentions a JNF land-swap deal.

Arab citizens of Israel have also leased JNF-owned land for housing purposes via a "legal device" used to evade the restrictions against such long-term use: The land in question is traded to the government so that it can be leased out and the JNF receives other land in return (Legal Status of the Arabs in Israel, p. 64).

While such swaps have clearly taken place, sometimes under threat of court action, it is not known how much land originally belonging to the JNF has been leased to Arabs in this way.

So it seems that things have gone back to what they were after a short while of the JNF trying to refuse sale of land to Arabs.

The Fool
29th March 2009, 03:17 AM
I wanna see the laws that indicate racial discrimination is legal in Israel, for myself. How come no one's cited any, yet?

I wanna see the laws that indicate juggling is legal in the USA. Can you site one?

I can assure you that Juggling is legal in the USA. You will not find a law that makes it illegal. It could be prevented by regulation. Local government ordinances could prevent it but these are regulations, not law...

In the case of the Israeli Education system its primarily the Funding that makes it discriminatory. The laws setup the structure of the education system by legislating the framework of the Department and empowering the administrators of the system. The education act does not prevent the administrators of the system from setting up and enforcing discriminatory systems under the direction of their relevant political ministers. Its quite legal for them to do it......but its difficult to site a law that specifically says discrimination is legal....but it certainly is....like Juggling in the USA.

it doesn't follow that a legal activity equals a law on the books proclaiming it legal. Everything is legal by default. Israel could end the discrimination by legislation. Adding a specific law to render illegal these funding practices. Of course this would take political will but I can't see a majority of Israeli politicians being uncomfortable with these discriminatory practices.

The laws of Israel do not prevent discrimination in education, thats not contested. The Israeli education system practices discrimination, thats not contested. They are not breaking the law, thats not contested......can't see how a statement such as "its legal to discriminate between arab and jewish students" can be contested.

It follows that racial discrimination is legal in Israel.......its going to require legislation to force an end to it or the education department to stop doing it...they can only do what they are told by the government they work for. I'll not hold my breath.

a_unique_person
29th March 2009, 03:40 AM
Oh...really?

Don't make me laugh.

That was certainly the intention of the founders of the State of Israel. (Not to make you laugh, to make it secular). Times have changed.

DC
29th March 2009, 03:51 AM
I just took a New York City Civil Service test today. The answer sheet asked me to list my "race". And I did.

:D

???
are you kidding?
i have never been asked what reace i am. i dont even know. im Human, i have a nationality. i also was never asked what color i am.....

the only documents i have talking about race are the documents of my dog......

Wowbagger
29th March 2009, 08:56 AM
I posted a bit here on JNF policy of selling land only to Jews:
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4542844&postcount=49

An Arab family, the Kadans, eventually won a court case regarding buying land in a Jewish neighbourhood.

On the other hand, the JNF was supported in July 2007 by a Knesset vote. However, according to Forward, that vote didn't make law:
http://www.forward.com/articles/11246/



Apparently fearing loss in the courts, the JNF offered a compromise in Sept 2007:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/906704.html
So, the facts are more complicated than the thread's title makes them out to be? Well, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

The Fool
29th March 2009, 04:30 PM
So, the facts are more complicated than the thread's title makes them out to be? Well, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

The title is "racial discrimination is LEGAL in Israel"

and it is.

what is far more complicated than that?

FireGarden
30th March 2009, 02:46 AM
TF,
As I understand it (and I'm not a lawyer, let alone an Israeli lawyer) racial discrimination is illegal as far as land-lease is concerned. There was an attempt to make the JNF an exception to this law. One reading passed at the Knesset. But the storm of disapproval which followed meant that the JNF itself backed down and agreed to go back to an older arrangement whereby land it controls is leased to Arabs by swapping that piece of land with an equal plot from the state.

I'm not saying that's ideal. But it does indicate that even an organisation as popular and powerful as the JNF (controls 13% of Israel's land) can't get its way as far as refusing to lease land to Arabs. There's no denying they tried. As far as I can see, they failed.

Here's another article, written after that first Knesset reading:
http://www.forward.com/articles/11346/

In 1961, the JNF contracted with the Israel Lands Authority, a government agency, for the ILA to manage its property. The contract provided that JNF land would be managed in accordance with the policies of the JNF, rather than the policies of the ILA, which was bound by the state’s anti-discrimination laws.

The common understanding was that JNF land, having been purchased by the Jewish people, was available for lease only to Jews. But in 2004, Israel’s Supreme Court ruled in favor of Adel Kaadan, an Israeli Arab who had sought to buy a home in Katzir, a moshav on the Mediterranean coast that had denied him on the grounds that Katzir was for Jews only.

The court ruling, limited to the Katzir case alone, was based on the Basic Law on human dignity and liberty, which opens: “The purpose of this Basic Law is to protect human dignity and liberty, in order to establish in a Basic Law the values of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.” “Equality,” among the rights enumerated in the law, was deemed both a Jewish and a democratic value.

This seems to answer your point since discrimination (being contrary to equality) is explicitly against the law -- The ILA is bound by anti-discrimination laws. The JNF, and those who supported it, tried to get the law modified so that the JNF would be an exception. (It may have been, in practice, an exception until the Kadan case). After an initial success, they appear to have failed.

Now petitioners have come before the court to ask that the Katzir finding be generalized to govern all ILA transactions, including specifically those dealing with JNF land. The bill now before the Knesset, approved on first reading by a vote of 64-16, would specifically exempt JNF land from the requirement for non-discrimination, allocating JNF lands only to Jews. That means that if the ILA continues as manager of JNF land, it will be required to enforce a restrictive covenant.

As I said before, this eventually failed.

I suppose that the JNF might try to administer its land without the ILA. I don't know if that can be done. Or whether they would get away with not leasing land to Arabs that way. Like I said, I'm not a lawyer.

The Fool
30th March 2009, 05:07 PM
TF,
As I understand it (and I'm not a lawyer, let alone an Israeli lawyer) racial discrimination is illegal as far as land-lease is concerned. There was an attempt to make the JNF an exception to this law. One reading passed at the Knesset. But the storm of disapproval which followed meant that the JNF itself backed down and agreed to go back to an older arrangement whereby land it controls is leased to Arabs by swapping that piece of land with an equal plot from the state.

I'm not saying that's ideal. But it does indicate that even an organisation as popular and powerful as the JNF (controls 13% of Israel's land) can't get its way as far as refusing to lease land to Arabs. There's no denying they tried. As far as I can see, they failed.

Here's another article, written after that first Knesset reading:
http://www.forward.com/articles/11346/



This seems to answer your point since discrimination (being contrary to equality) is explicitly against the law -- The ILA is bound by anti-discrimination laws. The JNF, and those who supported it, tried to get the law modified so that the JNF would be an exception. (It may have been, in practice, an exception until the Kadan case). After an initial success, they appear to have failed.



As I said before, this eventually failed.

I suppose that the JNF might try to administer its land without the ILA. I don't know if that can be done. Or whether they would get away with not leasing land to Arabs that way. Like I said, I'm not a lawyer.

The issue of land lease is an area of hope. The anti-discrimination laws appear to be making improvements. Its basically an issue between legistation and regulation. You can have legislation that says all the nice things... discrimination is illegal.... but also have regulation that says the department has the authority to decide on leases. If the department decides to be discriminatory within thier guidelines....which are often very broad...then they are not breaking the law until a court challenge affirms that they are in breach of the law.

It needs regulation rewritten to ensure the legislation is being honored. Regulation like creating rules and impowsing them on departments on how leases are decided....to ensure that the ethnicity of the applicant is irrelevant.

I know one way that would quickly and simply eliminate ethnicity as a criteria....end the practice of compulsory categorisation and identification. If it should not matter if you are Arab or Jew then don't allow the departments to know if people are Arab or Jew..

Thunder
30th March 2009, 05:09 PM
???
are you kidding?
i have never been asked what reace i am. i dont even know. im Human, i have a nationality. i also was never asked what color i am.....

the only documents i have talking about race are the documents of my dog......

i have been asked my race, on maybe 100 forms in the last 10 years. federal forms, state forms, city forms.

i guess you don't do much.

WildCat
31st March 2009, 12:40 PM
Oh...really?

Don't make me laugh.
Laugh it up parky, doesn't make it less true.

Any luck finding any evidence at all for your claims in the OP yet? Or maybe you'd just like to make up some more stuff?

The Fool
31st March 2009, 04:29 PM
Laugh it up parky, doesn't make it less true.

Any luck finding any evidence at all for your claims in the OP yet? Or maybe you'd just like to make up some more stuff?
its all made up?

Wildcat...have you moved past denial yet for the racial discrimination in the Israeli education system?

WildCat
31st March 2009, 06:11 PM
its all made up?

Wildcat...have you moved past denial yet for the racial discrimination in the Israeli education system?
Why should I engage you on your strawman? Perhaps you should start a new thread?

I'll re-post the OP so you can refresh your memory on parky's claims:

That's right folks. Our great ally, the vanguard of human rights and freedom in the Middle East, the only Western-style freedom-loving country in the Levant...........100% allows racial, religious, and ethnic discrimination.

Where is this racial discrimination allowed? It is allowed in housing, education, and employment.

It is 100% LEGAL in Israel to NOT sell someone a home or NOT rent them an apartment, because of their race. This is a fact.

It is 100% LEGAL in Israel to NOT allow a child to enroll in a kindergarden or nursery, because they are an Arab child. This is a fact.

It is 100% LEGAL to NOT hire someone, because of their race. The State of Israel allows this. No joke..

So folks, never mind the Israeli propaganda, but do we REALLY have common values with Israel? Do we really share common values with a nation that openly allows racial discrimination??

What kind of nation, that has a 2,000 year history of being persecuted, exiled, and murdered, because of racism....allows racism now that they have power and authority?

A nation of hypocrites perhaps?

Only God will judge. And according to the Bible, he does not take kindly to his people being disobedient and arrogant.
parky? Anyone? Buehler?

The Fool
31st March 2009, 06:35 PM
Why should I engage you on your strawman? Perhaps you should start a new thread?

I'll re-post the OP so you can refresh your memory on parky's claims:


parky? Anyone? Buehler?

one of the areas he mentioned was education. I've spent some time on that topic during this thread....helping people over the denial stage.

Are you still in denial about racial discrimination in the Israeli education system?

can I possibly help you on the education issue then we can move on to housing and employment?

WildCat
31st March 2009, 07:09 PM
one of the areas he mentioned was education. I've spent some time on that topic during this thread....helping people over the denial stage.

Are you still in denial about racial discrimination in the Israeli education system?

can I possibly help you on the education issue then we can move on to housing and employment?
I wasn't impressed by your arguments so far, so don't move along just yet.

Thunder
31st March 2009, 07:19 PM
http://www.geocities.com/savepalestinenow/israellaws/essays/israellawsessay.htm

Here is a lovely report that details racism and discrimination in Israel against Arabs.

It includes:

-racism in land allocations and confiscations.
-racism in benefits given to those who serve in the IDF and Yeshiva students, but not offered
to those forbidden from joining the armed forces and not given a civilian alternative for national service.
-racism in the education system.

The Fool
31st March 2009, 08:53 PM
I wasn't impressed by your arguments so far, so don't move along just yet.
LOL...when you can no longer plausably deny then just avoid discussing it with glib responses? I don't want to pressure you....

Just a reminder...even the Israeli government doesn't attempt to deny the Education system discrimination, they have moved onto the "doing all we can about it" stage....you may want to consider following thier lead.

Tin Foil Timothy
31st March 2009, 11:38 PM
LOL...when you can no longer plausably deny then just avoid discussing it with glib responses? I don't want to pressure you....

Just a reminder...even the Israeli government doesn't attempt to deny the Education system discrimination, they have moved onto the "doing all we can about it" stage....you may want to consider following their lead.

I think it's called 'momentum'. These serfs get indoctrinated with purveying a certain pack of lies and after a while build up a certain momentum. So even when their superiors capitulate and change direction the unquestioning parrots take time to adjust.

FireGarden
1st April 2009, 01:49 AM
http://www.geocities.com/savepalestinenow/israellaws/essays/israellawsessay.htm

Here is a lovely report that details racism and discrimination in Israel against Arabs.

It includes:

-racism in land allocations and confiscations.

Have you considered the dates in some of this?

Thus, up until recently, they generally only leased Israel Lands in rural areas mostly only to Jewish agricultural collectives, or their Jewish members. Then, in year 2000, the Israeli Supreme Court did rule in Qaadan v. Katzir that government land management agencies could not discriminate when leasing out Israel Lands, even if those lands were legally still owned by the non-government Jewish National Fund. And then in 2005, the Israeli Attorney General agreed with this and issued a ruling of his own that discriminatory land leasing by government agencies is illegal.

We now have rulings by both the Supreme Court and the Attorney General that discrimination in land leasing is illegal. The next steps then are:

1. For an actual law to be passed or amended to make this the law of the land;
2. Anti-discrimination law to be actively enforced;
3. Past discrimination to be corrected, for example through affirmative action programs.

So the courts have said discrimination in land leasing is illegal, but no specific law has actually been passed? So why is it illegal then? Which law does the discrimination break if it isn't a law against discrimination?

Maybe there is some need for further clarification of the law. Maybe that is why the JNF backed down and didn't want the courts to make further rulings. But surely what the courts have already decided is already the law of the land.

FireGarden
1st April 2009, 02:07 AM
I know one way that would quickly and simply eliminate ethnicity as a criteria....end the practice of compulsory categorisation and identification. If it should not matter if you are Arab or Jew then don't allow the departments to know if people are Arab or Jew..

This might be tough to enforce in practise. EG: Names would give away ethnicity in many cases.

bigjelmapro
4th April 2009, 01:57 AM
So in the end of this thread, as all pointless attempts that have been made thus far, show nothing along the lines of racial discrimination actually being legal in Israel at all. All that has been presented are cases where discrimination did occur and that these cases went to court. So once again, moving on to the next thread of hopeless smearing.

Fail fail fail.

The Fool
4th April 2009, 02:48 AM
So in the end of this thread, as all pointless attempts that have been made thus far, show nothing along the lines of racial discrimination actually being legal in Israel at all. All that has been presented are cases where discrimination did occur and that these cases went to court. So once again, moving on to the next thread of hopeless smearing.

Fail fail fail.

Have you got your eyes closed? Education funding in Israel is discriminatory. Discriminatory on a racial basis....its happening today...and its not illegal.

Keep your eyes closed and keep chanting that its not happening if it helps you....but I don't see the point.

As I've said before, even the Israeli government has given up denying it. You should consider following their lead.

So in the end of this thread, after legal racial discrimination is incontestably established, the usual crew simply say "no its not" and leave the thread.....looking the other way and whistling a happy tune.

bigjelmapro
4th April 2009, 08:52 AM
Hehe, 'incontestably established', nice try one that one.

There is an issue regarding funding for the orthodox Jewish congregation/schools and the government stipends that their x amount of children get, since they are the only group with 4-5+ children per family. I'm not part of that group, but I don't define them as being discriminatory towards myself. Its simply unfair and there should be a reassessment of the funding these families and schools receive from the government.

All that has been done in this thread is cheapen the terms discrimination, racism, etc. Nothing more.

So here we are again, with the OP of this thread having proved nothing. There is no legal basis for discrimination. A few instances does not indicate legal practice. End of story.

Should find a term for you guys: Bubbleboys would seem adequate.

gdnp
4th April 2009, 09:10 AM
So here we are again, with the OP of this thread having proved nothing. There is no legal basis for discrimination. A few instances does not indicate legal practice. End of story.

A single instance proves that it is a legal practice, just as a single instance of exchanging sex for money proves prostitution. All you can legitimately debate at this point is how pervasive the practice is.

bigjelmapro
4th April 2009, 09:40 AM
A single instance proves that it is a legal practice, just as a single instance of exchanging sex for money proves prostitution. All you can legitimately debate at this point is how pervasive the practice is.
Even this example is faulty. Wouldn't you mean that a single instance of exchanging sex for money legalizes prostitution?

There's no legality for discrimination in Israel no matter how many straw man arguments you produce.

gdnp
4th April 2009, 10:01 AM
Even this example is faulty. Wouldn't you mean that a single instance of exchanging sex for money legalizes prostitution?No. If a person has sex for money, he or she is a prostitute by definition, whether he or she does it once or 10 times a day

There's no legality for discrimination in Israel no matter how many straw man arguments you produce.Yet the proffered examples in military service and associated benefits and in education prove this is wrong. Sticking your fingers in your ears and denying it does not change this fact.

The Fool
4th April 2009, 04:14 PM
There's no legality for discrimination in Israel no matter how many straw man arguments you produce.
so all the examples that have been produced....The acknowledgment by the Israeli government that discrimination exists....reality.....what the whole world can see....doesn't exist in your world too?

bigjelmapro
5th April 2009, 12:45 AM
No. If a person has sex for money, he or she is a prostitute by definition, whether he or she does it once or 10 times a day

You missed it again. Doesn't prove that prostitution is legal since there are instances of prostitution. Really not that hard to see. Legality is the issue here.


Yet the proffered examples in military service and associated benefits and in education prove this is wrong. Sticking your fingers in your ears and denying it does not change this fact.
And the benefits of federal service in the US is discriminatory against those who don't do federal service? Quite a stretch to call it discrimination. But hey, whatever makes you feel better...

bigjelmapro
5th April 2009, 12:47 AM
so all the examples that have been produced....The acknowledgment by the Israeli government that discrimination exists....reality.....what the whole world can see....doesn't exist in your world too?
Acknowledging that discrimination exists is not the same as stating that its legal, which is the OP of this thread.

The Fool
5th April 2009, 02:54 AM
Acknowledging that discrimination exists is not the same as stating that its legal, which is the OP of this thread.
so the Israeli government is acting illegally when it discriminates? Its the Government that sets the discriminatory funding based on Racial categories.

gdnp
5th April 2009, 06:23 AM
You missed it again. Doesn't prove that prostitution is legal since there are instances of prostitution. Really not that hard to see. Legality is the issue here.And you missed it again. If there is a single instance where the Israeli government allows discrimination, the point of the OP is proved, even if all the other accusations are found false.


And the benefits of federal service in the US is discriminatory against those who don't do federal service? Quite a stretch to call it discrimination. But hey, whatever makes you feel better...The US did not allow freed slaves to fight in the civil war. Was that discriminatory? Yep. Israel treats military service obligations differently based on religion. That is discrimination. You can call it a benefit for the Arab population because many Jews would prefer not to serve in the military, but let's be serious: the purpose of the policy is that Israel does not want their Arab population walking around with guns.

Thunder
5th April 2009, 07:12 AM
All sorts of benefits and goodies are ONLY available to folks who serve in the IDF. Some Arabs are forbidden from joining the IDF. Does Israel provide a civilian alternative to national service in the IDF?

Nope.

bigjelmapro
5th April 2009, 07:18 AM
And you missed it again. If there is a single instance where the Israeli government allows discrimination, the point of the OP is proved, even if all the other accusations are found false.

Sorry, but not being dragged into another version of events where now the revised argument is that the Israeli government is allowing discrimination. This wasn't the argument from the start, so no need to add this in at this point.

There is no legal basis for discrimination in Israel. If there are cases where a person or group of people feel discriminated against, then there are methods of fighting against this, as seen in other Western countries with similar legal systems. Take it to court. This doesn't automatically mean that if an instance of apparent discrimination occurs, that it has any legal merit.


The US did not allow freed slaves to fight in the civil war. Was that discriminatory? Yep. Israel treats military service obligations differently based on religion. That is discrimination. You can call it a benefit for the Arab population because many Jews would prefer not to serve in the military, but let's be serious: the purpose of the policy is that Israel does not want their Arab population walking around with guns.
[/quote]
No need to befuddle the situation here either. My argument was in regards to federal service equals to more benefits. Which holds true in the US as it does in Israel. The only difference is that conscription is obligatory in Israel for Israeli Jews, which would actually point to discrimination towards Jews since non-Jews get a pass, but still have the option to serve if they so wish it.

You can make assumptions all you wish about what an alleged policy against Arabs in Israel. The only real conclusions you can make about the lack of Israeli Arabs serving in the IDF/IAF is that if they were to serve, it carries a certain stigma and they would be deemed outcasts and traitors amongst their communities, which is the case with Druze even. If certain conscripts are a security hazard to Israel, which there would undoubtedly be, let's be serious about that, then each case should be assessed on a case to case basis, as is the case even with Jews that decide to serve in the IDF. Background checks are a requirement.

On the slip-side, imagine the upheaval amongst the Israeli Arabs if conscription were mandatory for ALL citizens.

In the end, I would like to see a point where Israeli Arabs would join the IDF/IAF out of the benefits it provides, as it does in the US, and that there would be a point where conscription is not obligatory. However, in the current state of affairs, Israel requires a standing army of a certain size and simply cannot afford this luxury as in the US or NATO nations.

mortimer
5th April 2009, 07:21 AM
All sorts of benefits and goodies are ONLY available to folks who serve in the IDF. Some Arabs are forbidden from joining the IDF. Does Israel provide a civilian alternative to national service in the IDF?

Nope.
Parky,

What's your source for this claim? You provided a geocities link earlier, but in that link it was an unsourced assertion that "most" Arabs were barred from IDF service.

bigjelmapro
5th April 2009, 07:22 AM
All sorts of benefits and goodies are ONLY available to folks who serve in the IDF. Some Arabs are forbidden from joining the IDF. Does Israel provide a civilian alternative to national service in the IDF?

Nope.
Israeli Arabs aren't forbidden from joining the IDF. Exemption does not equal forbidden. They simply have a choice not to join. If they do wish it, then there are background checks. If they don't pass, they don't get it. Same checks are required by armed forces around the world, including psych checks.

As for national service:

Dramatic rise in number of Arab volunteers for national service (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/846000.html)

WildCat
5th April 2009, 07:45 AM
The US did not allow freed slaves to fight in the civil war. Was that discriminatory? Yep.
I know you're using this to illustrate a point, but it's factually incorrect. The Union had several divisons made up of freed slaves, such as the 1st Mississippi Infantry (http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/1ST_MISS.HTM).

Thunder
5th April 2009, 07:51 AM
I know you're using this to illustrate a point, but it's factually incorrect. The Union had several divisons made up of freed slaves, such as the 1st Mississippi Infantry (http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/1ST_MISS.HTM).

along with the 54th Massachusetts Division.

WildCat
5th April 2009, 08:38 AM
along with the 54th Massachusetts Division.
I don't think the 54th Mass. was composed of freed slaves, but rather from free blacks recruited from northern states.

Thunder
5th April 2009, 11:58 AM
I don't think the 54th Mass. was composed of freed slaves, but rather from free blacks recruited from northern states.

doo

The Fool
5th April 2009, 05:21 PM
Sorry, but not being dragged into another version of events where now the revised argument is that the Israeli government is allowing discrimination. This wasn't the argument from the start, so no need to add this in at this point.

another version of events?
The Israeli government practices racial discrimination....perfectly legal.


There is no legal basis for discrimination in Israel. If there are cases where a person or group of people feel discriminated against, then there are methods of fighting against this, as seen in other Western countries with similar legal systems. Take it to court. This doesn't automatically mean that if an instance of apparent discrimination occurs, that it has any legal merit.

what do you mean by "no legal basis"? "has any legal merit"? you are spinning and tap dancing to avoid reality.

you avoid simple questions that scare you.....here's one. Are the Discriminatory practices of the Israeli government in the area of education funding illegal under Israeli law?

simple question....

Thunder
5th April 2009, 05:47 PM
Hasidic Jews studying in Yeshivas are not required to serve in the IDF nor are the required to do any civilian service....YET they are allowed to get all the financial and social benefits as if they did.

Why does this rule ONLY apply to Jews? Why not to Christians studying the Bible or Muslims studying the Koran??

Only Jewish Israelis get this special treatment. Muslim or Christian Israelis are NOT eligible for a similar exemption. Why is this?

Seems like discrimination to me. One rule for Jews and another for Muslims, Christians, etc.

Thunder
5th April 2009, 07:38 PM
Oooo...did I find a sore point?

mortimer
5th April 2009, 08:17 PM
All sorts of benefits and goodies are ONLY available to folks who serve in the IDF. Some Arabs are forbidden from joining the IDF. Does Israel provide a civilian alternative to national service in the IDF?

Nope.

Parky,

What's your source for this claim? You provided a geocities link earlier, but in that link it was an unsourced assertion that "most" Arabs were barred from IDF service.
Parky?

Thunder
5th April 2009, 08:19 PM
wow...you are not familiar with this little tidbit of info huh?

Orthodox Jews who are studying Torah are exempt from national service. But they get all the benefits that would come as if they did serve. No other religion gets this little goody.

gdnp
5th April 2009, 08:26 PM
I know you're using this to illustrate a point, but it's factually incorrect. The Union had several divisons made up of freed slaves, such as the 1st Mississippi Infantry (http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/1ST_MISS.HTM).

Thanks. I was misinformed.

Ryokan
5th April 2009, 08:30 PM
That speaks volumes about the immorality of a society where one has to learn how to kill people in order to qualify for getting a job.

The Norwegian constitution requires every citizen to serve in the military for one year, then in the reserves until they're 44 (55 for officers). Refusal earns you a prison sentence, unless you claim to have a reason not to, for example religious reasons or you're a pacificst (Even then you have to serve civil service, though.).

Does the same argument count for Norway?

As in, that speaks volumes about the immorality of a society where one is required by law to learn how to kill, or be thrown in prison? Do you really think this tells you something about Norway? And if so, what?

mortimer
5th April 2009, 08:30 PM
wow...you are not familiar with this little tidbit of info huh?

Orthodox Jews who are studying Torah are exempt from national service. But they get all the benefits that would come as if they did serve. No other religion gets this little goody.
Actually, I was looking for a source for your claim that some Israeli Arabs cannot serve in the IDF and thus cannot get IDF benefits.

I have no idea if this is true or not, but Wikipedia says:

"In recent years, there have been several initiatives to enable Israeli Arabs to volunteer for civilian National Service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherut_Leumi) instead of to the IDF, completion of which would grant the same privileges as those granted to IDF veterans. However, this plan has gained strong resistance from Arab members of the parliament, and as a result, has not been implemented yet."

gdnp
5th April 2009, 08:31 PM
Acknowledging that discrimination exists is not the same as stating that its legal, which is the OP of this thread.

Webfusion posted this in another thread: (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4589896#post4589896)

The Citizenship Law denies family unification to Palestinian men aged 18-35 and women 18-25.

If this is true, then Jews can bring their spouses to live with them in Israel, and Muslim Israeli citizens between the ages of 18-25 or 18-35 cannot. That sounds like legal discrimination in Israel to me. Or does Webfusion have his facts wrong?

TriskettheKid
5th April 2009, 09:29 PM
wow...you are not familiar with this little tidbit of info huh?

Orthodox Jews who are studying Torah are exempt from national service. But they get all the benefits that would come as if they did serve. No other religion gets this little goody.

Uh....what?

So far as I am aware, Israeli Arabs are exempt from the draft. The Druze, I believe, are an exception, as they did not want to be exempted. Many Bedouin volunteer, too.

What is your point? People are exempt from the draft, just as would be the case here in the US.

bigjelmapro
5th April 2009, 11:21 PM
Hasidic Jews studying in Yeshivas are not required to serve in the IDF nor are the required to do any civilian service....YET they are allowed to get all the financial and social benefits as if they did.

Exemption is a limited one. Tal law specifies that this exemption that " the men receive a full exemption from military service when they reach the age of 41. Until that age, they are technically postponing their military service, in order to continue their yeshiva studies. Therefore, ultra-Orthodox men under the age of 41 who wish to leave their studies and enter the workforce face being drafted into the army. " Exemption (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/888205.html)

And no, they don't receive all the financial/social benefits as IDF conscripts. Point out where you see this. Or is this another one of your baseless allegations?


Why does this rule ONLY apply to Jews? Why not to Christians studying the Bible or Muslims studying the Koran??

The Tal law? There is a similar exemption for non-Jews.


Seems like discrimination to me. One rule for Jews and another for Muslims, Christians, etc.
So we're rotating further on the allegations of discrimination without answering to the previous allegations. Nice.

bigjelmapro
5th April 2009, 11:30 PM
Webfusion posted this in another thread: (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4589896#post4589896)

If this is true, then Jews can bring their spouses to live with them in Israel, and Muslim Israeli citizens between the ages of 18-25 or 18-35 cannot. That sounds like legal discrimination in Israel to me. Or does Webfusion have his facts wrong?
Haven't seen the link to that citizenship law, so can't really say. The link does state that there have been family reunification that took place contrary to this alleged law.

Conveniently for you, I've put myself in a constant defensive position in terms of having to answer to every and all discrimination allegations. Easy position for you I take it. As is, quite frankly, the centerpiece of posters from you to TFT.

mortimer
6th April 2009, 01:59 PM
wow...you are not familiar with this little tidbit of info huh?

Orthodox Jews who are studying Torah are exempt from national service. But they get all the benefits that would come as if they did serve. No other religion gets this little goody.

Actually, I was looking for a source for your claim that some Israeli Arabs cannot serve in the IDF and thus cannot get IDF benefits.

I have no idea if this is true or not, but Wikipedia says:

"In recent years, there have been several initiatives to enable Israeli Arabs to volunteer for civilian National Service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherut_Leumi) instead of to the IDF, completion of which would grant the same privileges as those granted to IDF veterans. However, this plan has gained strong resistance from Arab members of the parliament, and as a result, has not been implemented yet."
Have you found out anything more on this, parky? All I can find is that there are benefits to serving time in the IDF that one cannot get otherwise. But nothing about "some" Arab Israelis being banned from service. It also appears that it is the Arab Israeli politicians who have blocked the National Service program as an alternative to IDF service. Lastly, while Jews can avoid IDF service and get the IDF benefits, they often cannot get the benefits for decades, when they are in their 40's, which certainly removes much of the benefit they would have received.

Tin Foil Timothy
6th April 2009, 05:40 PM
The Norwegian constitution requires every citizen to serve in the military for one year, then in the reserves until they're 44 (55 for officers). Refusal earns you a prison sentence, unless you claim to have a reason not to, for example religious reasons or you're a pacificst (Even then you have to serve civil service, though.).

Does the same argument count for Norway?

As in, that speaks volumes about the immorality of a society where one is required by law to learn how to kill, or be thrown in prison? Do you really think this tells you something about Norway? And if so, what?

The problem with coming along and citing other world injustices in a debate about Israel's atrocities and racism is that you get pigeon holed along all the other Zionist Apologists who regularly and tediously try and dilute the argument by citing other injustices.


However... in answer to your question ... IMO the same does apply to Norway. Conscription is barbaric which ever nation is implanting it. Norway should get rid of conscription.

However thankfully Norway hasn't been involved in a 60 year long racist persecution and periodic Slaughter of people they have thrown off their land and thus criticism of it's conscription system is lower down on my list of rants!!

Ryokan, you say you are from Norway. Why don't you campaign for the dissolving of conscription in Norway? Or do you agree that a mandatory teaching of people how to kill is a good idea?

IDB87
6th April 2009, 06:09 PM
However... in answer to your question ... IMO the same does apply to Norway. Conscription is barbaric which ever nation is implanting it. Norway should get rid of conscription.


Do you think Israel and Norway have the population to field and support a standing army of volunteers?

You've said time and again Israel has a right to defend itself, but where would their military get the divisions, if not from conscription?

Egil
7th April 2009, 04:51 AM
Conscription is not barbaric. If you are a citizen of a nation it is incumbent upon you to defend said nation with your life if need be. You cannot let someone else die for your advantages. The All Volunteer Army lets this happen. How many war protestors sat at home protesting the GWOT while a bunch of others enlisted, served and died to let the Scions of lefties sit around and wax poetically about how Bush Lied and People Died.

The All Volunteer Army is barbaric as the majority of the volunteers are drawn from the lower rungs while the scions of privelage have no requirement to serve. It amounts to the paradigm of yesteryear where the nobility would conscript the peasants to die on the field.

Universal conscription, though I contend if any free nation cannot rely on the volunteer service of her free citizens to defend and save the nation then the nation deserves desolation.

Marc39
23rd April 2009, 06:59 AM
The creation of Isreal was based on discrimination. THe allies figured it was the best way to get rid of the jews was to ship them off to the mid east and disguise it as giving them their own country. Then they became the arabs problem! How convienent.

The Zionists "shipped" themselves to the "mid east", where they proceeded to build one of the most advanced societies on the planet out of desolate, putrid wasteland. Unlike the Arabs who were given their own countries and continue to live in the Middle Ages. Jews have historically been the "arabs problem" dating back to the Moslem invasion and conquest of Palestine in the 7th century, when Arabs massacred those "problematic" Jews.

Marc39
23rd April 2009, 07:17 AM
By creating Israel, the right to self determination for Palestinians was subverted, to pay for the sins of the Europeans.

Pals, historically, had never demonstrated any real interest in "self-determination" until, oh, around 1967, when Israel, coincidentally, took control of the so-called Palestinian territories. The creation of Israel subverted no Pal self-determination as Pals were substantively offered self-determination as far back as 1922, nearly 30 years before the creation of Israel, when Jordan was severed off by the British.

DC
23rd April 2009, 07:20 AM
The Zionists "shipped" themselves to the "mid east", where they proceeded to build one of the most advanced societies on the planet out of desolate, putrid wasteland. Unlike the Arabs who were given their own countries and continue to live in the Middle Ages. Jews have historically been the "arabs problem" dating back to the Moslem invasion and conquest of Palestine in the 7th century, when Arabs massacred those "problematic" Jews.

?? and what would have happened if the Palestinians would have get all those billions of dollars like Israel got?

and even if Palestinians want to live like in the middle age. they should have the freedom to do so.

moon1969
23rd April 2009, 08:27 AM
The creation of Isreal was based on discrimination. THe allies figured it was the best way to get rid of the jews was to ship them off to the mid east and disguise it as giving them their own country. Then they became the arabs problem! How convienent.

This is incorrect. I seem to remember it went something like this. Palestine was ruled by the Ottoman Empire from 1841-1917. After Ottoman Empire lost WW1 the League of Nations have Palestine to Britain. Britain made the Balfour Declaration and created the British Mandate of Palestine.
After WW2 the UN wanted to divide Palestne with the arabs and the jews but Mohammad Amin al-Husayni did not agree with the 1947 UN Partition Plan and he declared a war against the jews and so 1948 Arab-Israeli War started. Israel won and survived.
So I don"t see how Britain was racist against the jews. Considering the fact that only Hitler supported the arabs but even Stalin helped jews in 1948.

Marc39
23rd April 2009, 10:12 AM
The problem with coming along and citing other world injustices in a debate about Israel's atrocities and racism...

Israel's racism? Like...Nearly evey Arab country banning Jews? Or, legislation in Gaza and the West Bank prohibiting the sale of property to a Jew, an offense punishable by death? Or, the Arab slander that Jews descended from apes and pigs? Or, the Arab libel that Jews use the blood of Arab children in the preparation of food? Or, the widespread popularity of Mein Kampf and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Or, when Arabs rioted against the Jews throughout the 1920's, 30's and 40's chanting, "The Jews are our dogs"? Israel's atrocities? Like...the Hebron Massacre by Arabs? Or, the Jewish pogroms by Arabs? Or, the Farhud massacre by Arabs? Or, a swarm of Palestinian suicide bombers and car bombers killing scores of Israelis, both Jew and non-Jew? Or, the Munich Olympics massacre? Stuff like that?

Gaspode
23rd April 2009, 12:18 PM
Discussion on missing Palestinian funds split to new thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=140943).

Eddie Dane
23rd April 2009, 12:43 PM
This is incorrect. I seem to remember it went something like this. Palestine was ruled by the Ottoman Empire from 1841-1917. After Ottoman Empire lost WW1 the League of Nations have Palestine to Britain. Britain made the Balfour Declaration and created the British Mandate of Palestine.
After WW2 the UN wanted to divide Palestne with the arabs and the jews but Mohammad Amin al-Husayni did not agree with the 1947 UN Partition Plan and he declared a war against the jews and so 1948 Arab-Israeli War started. Israel won and survived.
So I don"t see how Britain was racist against the jews. Considering the fact that only Hitler supported the arabs but even Stalin helped jews in 1948.

:jaw-dropp

Moon, WTF happened?
A concise, factually correct post. Not about the Russo-Finnish conflict?
I'll forgive the hint of Stalin so I can just sit back and enjoy the moment.

I'm having a Finnish Vodka in you honour. Nazdravje and Le chaim!

Tin Foil Timothy
23rd April 2009, 04:07 PM
The Zionists "shipped" themselves to the "mid east", where they proceeded to build one of the most advanced societies on the planet out of desolate, putrid wasteland. Unlike the Arabs who were given their own countries and continue to live in the Middle Ages. Jews have historically been the "arabs problem" dating back to the Moslem invasion and conquest of Palestine in the 7th century, when Arabs massacred those "problematic" Jews.

I see you're back :rolleyes:

There were plenty of Jews also living in what you called a "desolate, putrid wasteland" so maybe you oughta have a rethink about your offensive BS.

And you are lying of course, because the land was not desolate and putrid. A land can hardly be desolate when 800,000 people were 'removed' from it to make way for the racist state called Israel.

Tin Foil Timothy
23rd April 2009, 04:18 PM
Conscription is not barbaric. If you are a citizen of a nation it is incumbent upon you to defend said nation with your life if need be. You cannot let someone else die for your advantages.


If you're going to use 'defense' as an argument ....


The All Volunteer Army lets this happen. How many war protestors sat at home protesting the GWOT while a bunch of others enlisted, served and died to let the Scions of lefties sit around and wax poetically about how Bush Lied and People Died.

... then choosing a situation which was NOTHING whatsoever to do with defense is not a good plan when formulating your argument.

FAIL



The All Volunteer Army is barbaric as the majority of the volunteers are drawn from the lower rungs while the scions of privelage have no requirement to serve. It amounts to the paradigm of yesteryear where the nobility would conscript the peasants to die on the field.

Universal conscription, though I contend if any free nation cannot rely on the volunteer service of her free citizens to defend and save the nation then the nation deserves desolation.

Look, if a nation is being attacked and is going to be invaded and overrun by another nation then it's obvious that it should be all hands on deck.

But we're not talking about those situations where the country is being attacked. We're talking about conscription for when there's either peace or when the Establishment are embarking on some agenda of violence for profit. As happened with the invasion and plunder of Iraq.

Conscription for Vietnam was one of the most barbaric things ever!!

And you're deluding yourself if you think conscription evens out the privileged and the peasants in practice.


Anyway ... if we're going to conscript people lets at least have them do something positive and fun .... Every citizen will be conscripted to to at least 2 years of mandatory mass sex and free love between the ages of 18 and 22.

In fact let's make it 4 years!!!

:) :) :)

Marc39
23rd April 2009, 04:32 PM
There were plenty of Jews also living in what you called a "desolate, putrid wasteland" so maybe you oughta have a rethink about your offensive BS.

Actually, no. Jews represented a miniscule segment of the population in Palestine prior to the influx of Jewish immigrants in the late 19th century.

And you are lying of course, because the land was not desolate and putrid. A land can hardly be desolate when 800,000 people were 'removed' from it to make way for the racist state called Israel.

Palestine was the neglected backyard of the Ottoman Empire, comprised mostly of unarable land and malaria-infested swamps, left battered by centuries of invasions and conquests. In his book, "Innocents Abroad," Mark Twain wrote of his travels to Palestine and the barren, desolate and lifeless land he was confronted with...

"Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse
that has withered its fields and fettered its energies. Where Sodom and Gomorrah reared their domes and towers, that solemn sea now floods the plain, in whose bitter waters no living thing exists -- over whose waveless surface the blistering air hangs motionless and dead -- about whose borders nothing grows but weeds, and scattering tufts of cane, and that treacherous fruit that promises refreshment to parching lips, but turns to ashes at the touch.

Nazareth is forlorn; about that ford of Jordan where the hosts of Israel entered the Promised Land with songs of rejoicing, one finds only a squalid camp of fantastic Bedouins of the desert; Jericho the accursed, lies a moldering ruin, to-day, even as Joshua's miracle left it more than three thousand years ago; Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and their humiliation, have nothing about them now to remind one that they once knew the high honor of the leader's presence; the hallowed spot where the shepherds watched their flocks by night, and where the angels sang Peace on earth, good will to men, is untenanted by any living creature, and unblessed by any feature that is pleasant to the eye.

Renowned Jerusalem itself, the stateliest name in history, has lost all its ancient grandeur, and is become a pauper village; the riches of Solomon are no longer there to compel the admiration of visiting Oriental queens; the wonderful temple which was the pride and the glory of Israel, is gone, and the Ottoman crescent is lifted above the spot where, on that most memorable day in the annals of the world, they reared the holy cross. The noted Sea of Galilee, where Roman fleets once rode at anchor and the disciples of the leader sailed in their ships, was long ago deserted by the devotees of war and commerce, and its borders are a silent wilderness; Capernaum is a shapeless ruin; Magdala is the home of beggared Arabs; Bethsaida and Chorazin have vanished from the earth, and the "desert places" round about them where thousands of men once listened to the leader's voice and ate the miraculous bread, sleep in the hush of a solitude that is inhabited only by birds of prey and skulking foxes.

Palestine is desolate and unlovely. And why should it be otherwise? Can the curse of the Deity beautify a land?"

Marc39
24th April 2009, 09:15 AM
Another case of diluting by bringing up other injustices. It amazes me why people continue to do this. It's so tired and ineffective. Yawn.

It amazes me why people continue to ignore far, far worse human rights violations, indeed, the complete absence of civil rights, in other states in the same region of the Middle East. It's so tired. Yawn.

Marc39
24th April 2009, 09:23 AM
All sorts of benefits and goodies are ONLY available to folks who serve in the IDF. Some Arabs are forbidden from joining the IDF.

Benefits and goodies from serving in the IDF that are denied Arabs...Like getting killed, maimed, wounded, psychologically scarred and kidnapped?

gdnp
24th April 2009, 11:12 AM
Actually, no. Jews represented a miniscule segment of the population in Palestine prior to the influx of Jewish immigrants in the late 19th century.

And yet, these are the people you assert have the right to the land now. Curious.

Marc39
24th April 2009, 01:08 PM
And yet, these are the people you assert have the right to the land now. Curious.

The League of Nations Mandate accords Jews the right to settle anywhere in Palestine.

Thunder
24th April 2009, 02:08 PM
The League of Nations Mandate accords Jews the right to settle anywhere in Palestine.

the terms of the Mandate were updated, to limit Jewish immigration to only those section west of the Jordan river.

Jordan was part of the Palestine Mandate for only 3 years. And the great majority of Jordan was NEVER considered part of Historic Palestine.

and BTW,

"the British had, in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussein-McMahon_Correspondence), previously promised the Hashemite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashemite) family lordship over most land in the region in return for their support."

"under the terms of the McMahon-Hussein and Sykes-Picot agreements, the land east of the Jordan was to be part of an Arab state or confederation of Arab states. Article 25 of the Mandate recognized that treaty obligation."

"In September 1922, the British government presented a memorandum to the League of Nations stating that Transjordan would be excluded from all the provisions dealing with Jewish settlement, and this memorandum was approved on 23 September. A clause was added to the charter governing the Mandate for Palestine which allowed Great Britain to postpone or permanently withhold all of the provisions which related to the 'Jewish National Home' on lands which lay to the east of the Jordan River"

Marc39
24th April 2009, 02:18 PM
the terms of the Mandate were updated, to limit Jewish immigration to only those section west of the Jordan river.

This is correct.

Thunder
24th April 2009, 02:39 PM
since it was THEIR mandate...they had every right to update it, change it, however they saw fit..to meet the demands and realities of the day.

before the British promised Palestine to the Jews, they promised it to the Arabs.

promises get made..and promises get broken.

limiting Jewish immigration to the areas west of the Jordan was a smart move.

Marc39
24th April 2009, 02:58 PM
since it was THEIR mandate...they had every right to update it, change it, however they saw fit..to meet the demands and realities of the day.

before the British promised Palestine to the Jews, they promised it to the Arabs.

promises get made..and promises get broken.

limiting Jewish immigration to the areas west of the Jordan was a smart move.

Wrong. It was the League of Nations' Mandate. The British were merely the trustees.

Thunder
24th April 2009, 03:03 PM
Wrong. It was the League of Nations' Mandate. The British were merely the trustees.

British boots on the ground. British money invested in the area. British sacrifices to be made. as far as I am concerned they had every right to make the decisions they made. it was their necks and their interests on the line.

either way, the decision to limit the Jews to the lands west of the Jordan was smart and just.

Marc39
24th April 2009, 03:14 PM
British boots on the ground. British money invested in the area. British sacrifices to be made. as far as I am concerned they had every right to make the decisions they made. it was their necks and their interests on the line.

either way, the decision to limit the Jews to the lands west of the Jordan was smart and just.

Trustees. The Mandate was, and remains, a "sacred trust" The trustees are subordinate to the trust.

Thunder
24th April 2009, 03:16 PM
Trustees. The Mandate was, and remains, a "sacred trust" The trustees are subordinate to the trust.

sacred? lol..

what exactly is that supposed to mean?

remains?? the mandate ended in 1947 when the Brits left. r u suggesting it is still active??

dream on

Marc39
24th April 2009, 03:38 PM
sacred? lol..

what exactly is that supposed to mean?

remains?? the mandate ended in 1947 when the Brits left. r u suggesting it is still active??

dream on

Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations
June 28, 1919

"To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilization and that securities for the formance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.

Thunder
24th April 2009, 03:41 PM
Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations
June 28, 1919

"To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilization and that securities for the formance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.


so what? its just fancy melodramatic wording.

the Mandate for Palestine ended when the Brits lowered their flag in 1947.

And now, the West Bank should become a Palestinian state. The Jews should be happy to have the parts of Palestine that they do have.

If the Israelis insist on continuing the Occupation of the West Bank, not only will they LOSE the West Bank, but they will LOSE their Jewish state aswell.

Marc39
24th April 2009, 03:42 PM
remains?? the mandate ended in 1947 when the Brits left. r u suggesting it is still active??

dream on

Wrong. Upon the dissolution of the League of Nations, the Mandate For Palestine was transferred to the UN under Article 80 of the UN Charter. Pleasant dreams.

Thunder
24th April 2009, 03:44 PM
Wrong. Upon the dissolution of the League of Nations, the Mandate For Palestine was transferred to the UN under Article 80 of the UN Charter. Pleasant dreams.

The United Nations considers the Palestine Mandate to be done with.

your posts are priceless.

...and useless.

Marc39
24th April 2009, 03:45 PM
And now, the West Bank should become a Palestinian state. The Jews should be happy to have the parts of Palestine that they do have.

And now, you need to better acquaint yourself with the Mandate for Palestine, which permits, encourages, actually, Jewish settlement in ALL of Palestine, including the West Bank and Gaza.

Thunder
24th April 2009, 03:47 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_mandate#Termination_of_the_Mandate

The Mandate for Palestine ended. Its over.

Deal with it.

Next you're gonna tell me that "God's Convenant" with Abraham and the descendants of Jacob is international law.

IDB87
24th April 2009, 05:10 PM
I will contact human rights organizations that work in Israel tomorrow and find out if there are actually laws that allow racial discrimination in employment, housing, or education.

If I am wrong...I will admit so. But If I am right...I will rub it in your faces.

Parky, it's been over a month. Have you called them yet?

Marc39
24th April 2009, 05:36 PM
Parky, it's been over a month. Have you called them yet?

The Israeli "human rights" organization B'Tselem was the trusted source for the bogus "Jews Only" road sign story.

Darth Rotor
25th April 2009, 08:54 AM
You know, I was going to say something along those lines, but figured it would be a bit platitudinous of me.

A good example of Israel's discrimination can be paralleled with our own rather recent and, to some, still on going issues of racial bigotry.
Bigotry is a problem to be worked at. It can be mitigated and sometimes minimized. That may be all we can hope for. And it takes work. IMO, work worth doing.

Also, I was a bit nasty in that reply, working on the friendly and lively bit. Cheers.

DR

Darth Rotor
25th April 2009, 09:00 AM
Hasidic Jews studying in Yeshivas are not required to serve in the IDF nor are the required to do any civilian service....YET they are allowed to get all the financial and social benefits as if they did.
And conscientious objectors are allowed exemption from the draft in the US (when it is active) but they are eligible for student loans or other federal program.

So what? Do you want CI's to be barred from all federal aid and programs parky? I don't.

DR

Darth Rotor
25th April 2009, 09:06 AM
However, you really don't know what you are talking about, do you?
Marc, I am curious as to why you failed to answer my previous question to you. Go back to page 1 or 2, if you please.

Also, in re your latest fun with parky: appeal to the UN, aka, Argumentum ad bureaucratum, is something close to laughable.

"Because the UN says so" is not much of an authority for anything, else we'd not have the book Blackhawk Down, nor the rubbish in the Sudan of late.

On the other hand, Israel has in fact used the law of blood and iron to carve out a nation state. That seems to work, and is a law that is very hard to argue against.

Thus, when in Israel, do as the Israelis, but don't expect to proceed on without critique.

DR

Marc39
25th April 2009, 09:22 AM
Marc, I am curious as to why you failed to answer my previous question to you. Go back to page 1 or 2, if you please.

Also, in re your latest fun with parky: appeal to the UN, aka, Argumentum ad bureaucratum, is something close to laughable.

"Because the UN says so" is not much of an authority for anything, else we'd not have the book Blackhawk Down, nor the rubbish in the Sudan of late.

On the other hand, Israel has in fact used the law of blood and iron to carve out a nation state. That seems to work, and is a law that is very hard to argue against.

Thus, when in Israel, do as the Israelis, but don't expect to proceed on without critique.

DR

I didn't fail to answer your question, I didn't see your question. Why don't you ask me again?

Marc39
25th April 2009, 09:24 AM
Also, in re your latest fun with parky: appeal to the UN, aka, Argumentum ad bureaucratum, is something close to laughable.

"Because the UN says so" is not much of an authority for anything, else we'd not have the book Blackhawk Down, nor the rubbish in the Sudan of late.

On the other hand, Israel has in fact used the law of blood and iron to carve out a nation state. That seems to work, and is a law that is very hard to argue against.

Thus, when in Israel, do as the Israelis, but don't expect to proceed on without critique.

DR

Can you translate your prose into more easily decipherable language?

Darth Rotor
25th April 2009, 09:37 AM
Can you translate your prose into more easily decipherable language?
No.

If you can't follow me, we won't have a conversation. Easy, eh?

I don't dumb myself down, ya see. Part of my policy in the War on Stupid.

See post 21 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4540497&postcount=21)of this thread for my question.

Do you have an answer you would like to share?

DR