Million Dollar Challenge Material?

[kruse10]

I made a video of myself showing what I can do. Tell me if you think it has a chance at
winning the million. Its called Moving A Ball Mentally and its at photobucket.com/rich694

[chran]

Personally (I don't represent the JREF) I don't think you stand a chance as it's presented.

I don't think there's any way the JREF would allow a test where you could manipulate the needle like that.

Put the needle in some kind of holder and put the whole thing inside a glass jar (to prevent air currents moving the ball), and we might have something.

But again, only the JREF can tell you for sure.

[Denver]

Do you have to be in direct or indirect physical contact with the ball to move it?
If so, there are more normal explanations of its movement other than a paranormal one.

[Jackalgirl]

Here's the linky (http://s259.photobucket.com/albums/hh317/rich694/?action=view&current=CLIP0001.flv), for interested persons.

chran and Denver are both correct, kruse10; your test (that is, you holding a pin with a ball on it) does not control for mundane explanations.

For example, your breath could be moving the ball. Your fingers might be consciously or subconsciously imparting a spin to the needle, which gets the ball moving.

What you have to do is think of all of the things that could be happening (breath, heat, movement) and put controls in for them.

You may not have tried this yet, so it's important to play around with it (in essence, you're trying to find out what, if any, limits there are to your ability).

For example: try sticking the pin upright in a plank of wood, then putting the ball on the other end of the pin. Put this whole setup on the floor, then set up a frame that dangles thin paper strips all around the ball (but which still lets you see the ball sufficiently enough to concentrate on it).

Can you move the ball without the strips of paper moving?

If the strips of paper move, the more likely explanation is that your breath is moving the ball, see?

By putting the pin in the plank, we remove your fingers from the equation (we're trying to rule out the possibility that your fingers are twisting the pin and imparting spin to the ball). If you have to be in direct contact, try lightly resting a fingertip against the pin. Does the nature of the ball's motion change? Does it now rock back and forth instead of spinning? The likely explanation is, then, that your fingers are imparting motion to the ball.

But let's say that you set up this rig -- say, the paper strip rig -- and you can get the ball to spin without the paper strips moving (and that you can do this without touching the pin). Next experiment: try to rotate the ball in either direction. Can you get it to go clockwise, or counter-clockwise, upon demand? Once it is moving, can you stop it and reverse its motion? Can you stop it on demand?

Once you know the answers to all of these questions, you'll be able to design a pretty tight protocol -- one that rules out all of the mundane possibilities such as heat, air motion, and conscious/unconscious movement on your part -- leaving as the only likely explanation that you actually are telekenetic.

Please let us know how your experiments go, and welcome to the Forum! : )

[Blackwell]

Hi kruse10 -- welcome to the forum.

It looks like a lot of your questions were answered when you first posted here, back in '05:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=42533

[Jackalgirl]

Good catch, Blackwell!

kruse10, please go through the thread that Blackwell linked and read it. In particular, you need to test yourself for the ideomotor effect (which is the term that describes unconscious movement).

Really, you've got to get your hands off that needle. That's the primary thing at this point.

[Dumb All Over]

Kruse10, in the thread from 2005 you said-
I'll try one more video and i'll check it out before I post it, and if I dont succed I will never post to this forum again.
Is the new video posted in this thread the one you spoke of in 2005?

[Azrael 5]

Well I checked out the video....

:D :D :D

[RoboTimbo]

A shame we can't see the bottom of the pin to see what's turning it.

[kruse10]

You mean if I showed one of the JREF representatives the exact same thing but in person
they would'nt be convinced?

[Jackalgirl]

You mean if I showed one of the JREF representatives the exact same thing but in person
they would'nt be convinced?

I doubt it. They'd have the same objections that we've put forth here. Doesn't matter whether you're demonstrating in person or on video; until you design a demonstration that excludes the possibility of heat, breath, or the voluntary/involuntary motion of your body, I suspect they won't really be interested in the least.

[IMST]

You mean if I showed one of the JREF representatives the exact same thing but in person
they would'nt be convinced?

Probably not. Looks like kind of a cool up close conjuring trick, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are plenty of conjurers who can do the same thing through non paranormal means.

[Uncayimmy]

Kruse, think about what you're saying:

I can make something move using only my mind, but I have to touch it.

In all seriousness, can you see how a reasonable person would find that statement contradictory? Have you even considered the following?

I can touch something and without consciously sensing any movement on my part, that something will move when I just think about it.

Many people, including most skeptics, understand the above to be a well known phenomenon.

[kruse10]

Ok duplicate the video using fakery, trickery, the ideometer effect, or whatever. Ill be
waiting.

[IMST]

Ok duplicate the video using fakery, trickery, the ideometer effect, or whatever. Ill be
waiting.

I have NEVER attempted to learn magic tricks in the past. That said, I think I can duplicate your results if I can borrow a video camera. Any Seattle area folks want to give me a hand?

[Bob Klase]

You mean if I showed one of the JREF representatives the exact same thing but in person they would'nt be convinced?

Why would they be convinced? Even the JREF representatives can be fooled by many magic tricks. I'm even Randi can still be fooled by a magic trick now and then. Why would they accept yours as anything else without having controls to prevent you from cheating (either intentionally or without knowing it)?

Ok duplicate the video using fakery, trickery, the ideometer effect, or whatever. Ill be waiting.

That would be a pointless waste of time. Once someone duplicates it using trickery you'll just say "but I'm not doing it that way". Then someone else will do it with a different method and you'll repeat "but I'm not doing it that way".

So, while I won't waste time putting up a video, I did just duplicate it. I used a long needle which extended under my thumb and down below my hand (but where the camera wouldn't see it on a video if I used the same camera angle and distance used in your video). Just used my other hand to turn the bottom of the needle. That's just one of 3 methods that occurred to me while reading this thread that would look exactly like your video.

Now you can say "but I didn't use a long needle", or "but I'm not doing it that way".

Do the trick with some of the controls mentioned earlier in the thread. I'll be waiting.

[Uncayimmy]

Ok duplicate the video using fakery, trickery, the ideometer effect, or whatever. Ill be
waiting.

And what do I get in return?

[skeen]

Wait, this isn't a joke? Hm, how could I duplicate a man putting a foam ball on a needle, and subtly twisting it (though not to subtle when you use the video's forward/rewind function)?

I suggest you retitle it, "twisting a pin". :)

[Ocelot]

OK then, I tried to replicate this effect. The method I was most interesting in was turning the pin. I wanted to find out how visible a movement of my finger and thumb would be as I rolled the needle between then.

I couldn't find a needle and ball but made do with a straightened paper clip and a piece of polystyrene packaging. Obviously a a paper clip is significantly wider than a pin so it would require more movement.

The first thing that I noticed was that I'd placed my polystyrene somewhat off centre. By holding the paperclip off vertical and relaxing my grip it moved of it's own accord. That's just gravity, nothing paranormal about that.

I'm not saying that's what you're doing but that's the sort of thing you'd have to rule out in a protocol to convince a skeptic.

The second thing I noticed was that since the paperclip wasn't entirely straight I could manoeuvre the lower end with the fingers that would be out if sight if I replicated your video.

Obviously demonstrations for the paranormal challenge tend to be in person. So it would be harder to conceal such a movement but still possible.

Finally I tested what I intended to test. How visible would the movement of my fingertips be if I slowly rolled the paperclip between then in order to replicate the motion of the ball shown in your video.

I have to say the even with the disadvantage of my paperclip being thicker than you needle I could turn the polystyrene just as well as you turned your ball with barely any discernable movement of my fingertips. I even foufn that I could compensate for the very slight movement by rotating my hand. By doing so I could get an entire revolution whilst keeping the movement of my fingertips pretty much imperceptible.

Incidentally in doing so I raised the curiosity of a colleague at the next desk. As such I showed him your video and explained that it was your claim that you were moving the ball with the power of your mind. His comment: "I'd be more inclined to believe him if he wasn't touching it"

If that's what you'd have to do to convince the average disinterested party you'll have to do a lot more to convince the JREF.

My advice to you is to see if you can do this without touching it and then introduce various other controls such as sheild the ball from draughts.

If you find you can still control the movement, start it stop it make it change direction the look at some of the psi wheel protocols that have previously been suggested.

You will of course have to get a suitably qualified academic to declare that they have no scientific explanation for how you're accomplishing it and build up a media pressence performing this feat but should you actually master the ability to move things with your mind these secondary hurdles should be quite easy.

I wish you the best of luck with your investigations. Please do report back, even if you find out that it was probably the ideomotor effect after all.

[bonavada]

I wish you the best of luck with your investigations. Please do report back, even if you find out that it was probably the ideomotor effect after all.

Looking at the video and a little work with Corel Paint makes me doubt the veracity of this claim.

Take a look at the images captured from the video below. A faint spot is arrowed at the beginning of the video.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/874849df3703d4a30.jpg


You will notice, from the second picture captured very near the end, that the thumb covers the spot. This would suggest thumb movement or, at the very least, camera rotation. There also seems to be significant lateral movement of the thumb with respect to the forefinger. You can see that marked where the thumbnail intersects the forefinger on both images. It's only a few millimetres difference but enough to warrant suspicion.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/874849df373c4ea75.jpg

With these points in mind watch the video again. The manipulation is hardly perceptible but, with a little effort, visible.


Will this win the MDC? Is the Pope a protestant?

Say no more

BV

[Uncayimmy]

The screen captures are fine, but they still don't prove that his mind was not moving the ball. If we assume that he has a firm grip on the pin, then any movement of the pin would translate into lateral movement of one or both of the fingers holding the pin due to friction. If his mind made the ball rotate, that would make the pin rotate. It's same principle that would translate the movement of his fingers into movement on the ball.

To use an analogy, suppose I stand behind a car with my hands on the trunk. The car moves forward. My arms extend forward as I keep my hands on the trunk. Did I push the car or did the driver ease the car forward? Visually, there's no way to tell.

In his video there is no way to tell if his fingers are causing the ball to move or if the ball is causing his fingers to move (other than common sense). Now, if he were claiming that the pin was rotating freely inside his grip, the clips would certainly debunk that. I don't think he's made that claim.

[bonavada]

the screen captures are fine, but they still don't prove that his mind was not moving the ball.


Of course they don't offer "proof" as such. What they do is suggest that there are possible means other than "mind control" by which the ball moves. Surely that possibility would negate this, as it stands, as acceptable for the MDC?



Now, if he were claiming that the pin was rotating freely inside his grip, the clips would certainly debunk that. I don't think he's made that claim.



A "rotating freely" claim is ruled out by the claimant himself. He has stated he has to be touching the needle/ball (call it a "system") Let's be realistic, his insistence on him having to be in physical contact with the "system" rings alarm bells. He claims he is "Moving A Ball Mentally" that description should preclude any physical contact.


It starts off really badly and just gets worse from there. I call BS.

BV

[Altered Statesman]

Kruse10, could you do the same thing using something thicker than a pin? Like a knitting needle with verticle lines on it so we can see how much the 'pin' moves as opposed to the ball? Or is the ability some mysterous electrical force which needs the pin to conduct the ball moving thoughts? If so, I'm sure conductive knitting needles could be arranged.

[RoboTimbo]

I think 'mentally' in this case means that he is willing his fingers to spin the pin. He and I share this amazing ability. Just the other day, I willed my fingers to cause a pen to write my name on a piece of paper. It's like Unca says, though. You really can't tell if I'm willing my fingers to move the pen or if I'm willing the pen to move my fingers. I should make a video.

[YeahDude]

Sometimes I feel as though some people are just trying to upset others with this insanity.

[Uncayimmy]

Kruse10, could you do the same thing using something thicker than a pin? Like a knitting needle with verticle lines on it so we can see how much the 'pin' moves as opposed to the ball? Or is the ability some mysterous electrical force which needs the pin to conduct the ball moving thoughts? If so, I'm sure conductive knitting needles could be arranged.

You missed the point of my post. Of course the pin or knitting needle will move if the ball moves. The question is whether the ball moves the needle or the needle moves the ball. In both cases the fingers will move. It's all part of one system. The question is where the energy comes from.

And thus we see the utter silliness of the video. It is impossible to tell which part of the system is initiating the movement. Sure, we're all convinced his fingers are providing the energy, but we know this because of things we have learned outside of the video. In the video itself it's not possible to tell (or at least nobody has demonstrated a way to tell).

Your proposal would be more of the same thing, just easier to see.

[Ocelot]

I'm not sure UncaYimmy is correct.

When I was rolling my paperclip between thumb and forefinger I was pressing them together to "brake" the movement. This helped make the movement slow and mostly imperceptable. I was apply just enough lateral force to overcome the friction between my finger tip. The needle and polystyrene having low rotational inertia simply went along with the movement.

The other way round with the ball moving I wouldn't expect the motion of the polystyene to overcome this friction between fingertips. Instead I'd expect the surface between polystyrene and paperclip or the surface betweeen paperclip and skin to slip. Though to be fair that wasn't something I'd tried.

[Mojo]

You mean if I showed one of the JREF representatives the exact same thing but in person
they would'nt be convinced?


I doubt that moving something that you are holding in your hand would be considered a paranormal act.

[Jackalgirl]

I think 'mentally' in this case means that he is willing his fingers to spin the pin. He and I share this amazing ability. Just the other day, I willed my fingers to cause a pen to write my name on a piece of paper. It's like Unca says, though. You really can't tell if I'm willing my fingers to move the pen or if I'm willing the pen to move my fingers. I should make a video.

Good Lord. I've been blessed with telekenesis all along and I didn't know it!.

I get what you and UncaYimmy are saying and you're both absolutely correct. What you have to do is demonstrate where the input to the system is: is it the force of the fingers moving the needle and ball? Or the telekenetic force on the ball moving the needle and fingers?

It's an untestable claim as it stands. The only way to make it testable is if kruse10 claims that he can move a ball that is not connected by any means to his fingers.

Kruse10, can you do that? You've been asked several times whether you can move the ball without touching it (or the needle), and you seem to be ignoring this question. Would you please answer it?

[Uncayimmy]

I'm not sure UncaYimmy is correct.

When I was rolling my paperclip between thumb and forefinger I was pressing them together to "brake" the movement. This helped make the movement slow and mostly imperceptable. I was apply just enough lateral force to overcome the friction between my finger tip. The needle and polystyrene having low rotational inertia simply went along with the movement.

The other way round with the ball moving I wouldn't expect the motion of the polystyene to overcome this friction between fingertips. Instead I'd expect the surface between polystyrene and paperclip or the surface betweeen paperclip and skin to slip. Though to be fair that wasn't something I'd tried.

That's why I said, "Now, if he were claiming that the pin was rotating freely inside his grip, the clips would certainly debunk that. I don't think he's made that claim."

[Ashles]

Looking at the video and a little work with Corel Paint makes me doubt the veracity of this claim.

You will notice, from the second picture captured very near the end, that the thumb covers the spot. This would suggest thumb movement or, at the very least, camera rotation. There also seems to be significant lateral movement of the thumb with respect to the forefinger. You can see that marked where the thumbnail intersects the forefinger on both images. It's only a few millimetres difference but enough to warrant suspicion.
With these points in mind watch the video again. The manipulation is hardly perceptible but, with a little effort, visible.
That was the first thing that struck me when you fast forward the video - the camera is tracking round exactly as you would expect if someone were trying to compensate for the lateral movement of the forefinger or thumb.

Why would the camera not be fixed?

No claim here.

[Robert Oz]

The first thing that I noticed was that I'd placed my polystyrene somewhat off centre. By holding the paperclip off vertical and relaxing my grip it moved of it's own accord. That's just gravity, nothing paranormal about that.


That's actually one of the things that came to my mind when I watched the video. It reminded me of a similar trick I used to do where I would hold a coin very slightly off centre and it would appear to rotate between my fingers on its own.

It can look quite impressive if the off centre grip is very subtle.

[Ocelot]

That's why I said, "Now, if he were claiming that the pin was rotating freely inside his grip, the clips would certainly debunk that. I don't think he's made that claim."

My point is that the pin rotating freely inside his grip is what should be expected from the ball being rotated, either with the power of the mind or with the other hand. For me it's implicit in his claim.

I would not expect, as it seemed you were suggesting, that a pin rotating between thumb and forefinger would cause a lateral motion of the fingertips.

However it's not a big deal and if you disagree, thats fine by me.

[Altered Statesman]

Your proposal would be more of the same thing, just easier to see.

If the needle, pin or whatever had markers on it as well as the ball, it would be easier to tell if they were moving at a different rate from one another, which would be a bit more impressive than the video in the OP.

If he can make the ball spin on the pin with only the power of his mind, which seems to be the claiming, shouldn't the ball be moving at a different rate than the pin is? Foam balls are pretty slippery inside so there isn't much friction against the pin to make it move along with the ball, you're fingers could grip the pin enough to stop the pin spinning along with the ball.

With a fixed camera and everything marked, couldn't you see if his fingers were moving compared to the pin?

...or he is just performing a rather easy magic trick. :D

Is his claim that he can move the ball, the pin, the pin and ball or his fingers?

AS

p.s - I love debating bollocks.

[DarleneSterner]

Hey I sent in my application for the challenege!!!!! I would like to start a new thread about me and what I can do, get some feedback and have others answer some questions I have. I value most people's opinions, and as I have recently applied I think it would be good for everyone to get to know me MORE. How do I start a new thread about me??? :wow2::thanks:irule;)

[Robert Oz]

Hey I sent in my application for the challenege!!!!! I would like to start a new thread about me and what I can do, get some feedback and have others answer some questions I have. I value most people's opinions, and as I have recently applied I think it would be good for everyone to get to know me MORE. How do I start a new thread about me??? :wow2::thanks:irule;)


To start a new thread relating to the Million Dollar Challenge, go to the "Million Dollar Challenge" sub-forum through the forum index and click "New Thread".

[fromdownunder]

Darlene, near the header of this Forum and on the left hand side, you will find a red button that says "new thread". Press that button, put in a header which summarises your claim, then type your text in the box, as you have with this thread.

A suggestion - the thread should not be "all about me" but specifically relate only to your challenge application, and only the specific details for which you are claimiing to be entitled to challenge for the $1M. If you deviate from this the thread will more than likely be shifted from the challenge forum very quickly.

So, in summary, don't talk about yourself, talk about your challenge. We are all waiting with baited breath. If you want to just talk about yourself, I suggest that myspace is the appropriate place to do it.

Norm

[LilaMae]

I should sign my mom up.

How do I convince my mom that just because when I call her, she'll say "I was JUST thinking about my sweet baby girl." does not qualify as having psychic powers.

[Ocelot]

Stop calling her ;-)

[rjh01]

Tell her 'yes I know, you are always thinking about me.'

That is also how dowsing works.

[kruse10]

I made another video attempting to move a piece of paper this time. Let me know if you
think it is more or less convincing. It is also at photobucket.com/rich694

[RoboTimbo]

I made another video attempting to move a piece of paper this time. Let me know if you
think it is more or less convincing. It is also at photobucket.com/rich694

It is exactly as convincing as video #1 for exactly the same reasons. I take that back. It is less convincing because you had to ask if it looks more or less convincing. Not the question to ask if you believe you are turning the paper with paranormal means alone.

It's a good question to ask if you are trying to only simulate a paranormal event, though.

[Cavemonster]

I made another video attempting to move a piece of paper this time. Let me know if you
think it is more or less convincing. It is also at photobucket.com/rich694

You're silly :)

How about you move something you aren't touching? That would be a good start.

[Drudgewire]

I think the second one is more convincing, because:


I am holding a needle thats inside a foam ball. I am trying to move the ball with my mind. with my mind.


...you say "with my mind" twice and I'm a sucker for the power of suggestion. ;)

[Ocelot]

http://www.congregationofrealists.org/images/FingerRoll.gif

Well it's convinced me of one thing, but probably not what you were hoping for.

[not daSkeptic]

I made another video attempting to move a piece of paper this time. Let me know if you
think it is more or less convincing. It is also at photobucket.com/rich694

I think the point you're missing is that, in order for your demonstrations to be convincing, you have to eliminate all explanations except for the one you are claiming. If you don't, there is no way to determine which explanation is the real one.

[Cavemonster]

I think the point you're missing is that, in order for your demonstrations to be convincing, you have to eliminate all explanations except for the one you are claiming. If you don't, there is no way to determine which explanation is the real one.

Minor correction, he only has to eliminate all those explanations that are simpler than the paranormal one.

For instance, "The CIA produced a mind altering substance which he sprays into the air to make people think the paper is moving" is an explanation, and a non-paranormal one too, but he doesn't have to eliminate it, just all the ones more prosaic than telekinesis.

[William Smith]

I made another video attempting to move a piece of paper this time. Let me know if you
think it is more or less convincing. It is also at photobucket.com/rich694

It convinces me that you do not have the ability you claim, since it has been explained to you - repeatedly - why the things you did in the first video were insufficient to prove you are indeed moving the object with your mind.

Likely conclusion: Ideomotor effect.
Another likely conclusion: You are trying to fool people.

Try to move something you are not touching.

Put the styrofoam ball in a jar. Shut the jar and place it on a table. Make sure the table stands firm on the ground and is substantial enough. Try to move the styrofoam ball in the glass without touching the table or the glass. Only use whatever ability you claim. You move the ball this way, you are on to something.

[jimtron]

It convinces me that you do not have the ability you claim, since it has been explained to you - repeatedly - why the things you did in the first video were insufficient to prove you are indeed moving the object with your mind.

Likely conclusion: Ideomotor effect.
Another likely conclusion: You are trying to fool people.

Try to move something you are not touching.

Put the styrofoam ball in a jar. Shut the jar and place it on a table. Make sure the table stands firm on the ground and is substantial enough. Try to move the styrofoam ball in the glass without touching the table or the glass. Only use whatever ability you claim. You move the ball this way, you are on to something.

Better yet put the jar on concrete or a similar surface that can't be easily rocked, moved, etc. (either intentionally or unintentionally).

[Jackalgirl]

Less convincing. Paper is even more susceptible to outside factors, such as (say) your breath, or heat. Plus, your hand is clearly moving.

Said it before and I will echo what everyone else is saying. Can you move the paper without touching the pin? Stick the pin into the table top, lean back so that you're at least three feet away from the table, and don't touch the table. Can you move it?

I'd appreciate a "yes, I can" or "no, I can't" answer, rather than another video of you holding a pin with some other item stuck to the top of it.

[jimtron]

Kruse10:

If you sincerely believe that you have a paranormal ability, let us know specifically what it is, and we can help you come up with a demonstration or help with the MDC. (Although the main points have already been addressed.) If you don't really believe that you have a paranormal ability, and are seeing if you can fool us or win the MDC through a trick, you're going to have to do much, much better than the videos you've linked to.

[siddhigyrl]

Nah, you can see his fingers rolling, especially in the first one.

Good grief, how does JREF wade through such dribble?

By the way, I can cause liquid to rise through a straw, using my mind. using my mind. but I must be able to touch my lips to the straw...:p

[Yeggster]

If your fingers are NOT moving the paper ... BUT you must be touching the pin for your mind to tranfer the "psycik energy" to the piece of paper ... repeat the test but super glue the pin to your fingers first.

And maybe (just to get the glue to stick better mind you) consider a scrub brush to clean them up a bit first

[IXP]

If your fingers are NOT moving the paper ... BUT you must be touching the pin for your mind to tranfer the "psycik energy" to the piece of paper ... repeat the test but super glue the pin to your fingers first.

And maybe (just to get the glue to stick better mind you) consider a scrub brush to clean them up a bit first
Not enough. Though the superglue would probably prevent motion of the fingers relative to each other, it would not prevent overall motion of the entire fiinger / superglue / pin system. I suggest clamping the fingers in a vise.

Bob

[RoboTimbo]

Not enough. Though the superglue would probably prevent motion of the fingers relative to each other, it would not prevent overall motion of the entire fiinger / superglue / pin system. I suggest clamping the fingers in a vise.

Bob

Must the fingers absolutely remain on the hand?

[petre]

My, aren't we in a sardonic mood today?

At the risk of sounding helpful, a demonstration with the pin clamped and just one finger touching would be more (though not entirely) convincing. If such is not possible, I wonder what theory or theories could describe the discrepancy.

[DevilsAdvocate]

If your fingers are NOT moving the paper ... BUT you must be touching the pin for your mind to tranfer the "psycik energy" to the piece of paper ... repeat the test but super glue the pin to your fingers first.Or easier, just keep rolling the video and twirl the paper or ball 20 full rotations (without your thumb ending up in the middle of your index finger). :D